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Eric D
03-21-2011, 11:52 AM
Where would I find on the web laws that the DNR enforce?

A friend of mine went salmon fishing last weekend with his dad. Long story as short as I can make it: while out on the ice a DNR officer walks up and asks how many fish they had. He told the officer 9. (The limits 5 per person.) The officer said that he saw him (my friend) catch 4 and that he had a witness that seen him catch the other 5. He explained he was with his father that was fishing as well and they were under the limit of 10 total. Didn’t matter, the limit is set for each person, not by how many are there fishing. He got a ticket.

I would like to read through the laws dealing with fishing. I can’t seem to find them on the DNR website or even a link. There has to be more than just the “Fishing Guide”, right?

Daniels
03-21-2011, 11:58 AM
Where would I find on the web laws that the DNR enforce?

A friend of mine went salmon fishing last weekend with his dad. Long story as short as I can make it: while out on the ice a DNR officer walks up and asks how many fish they had. He told the officer 9. (The limits 5 per person.) The officer said that he saw him (my friend) catch 4 and that he had a witness that seen him catch the other 5. He explained he was with his father that was fishing as well and they were under the limit of 10 total. Didn’t matter, the limit is set for each person, not by how many are there fishing. He got a ticket.

I would like to read through the laws dealing with fishing. I can’t seem to find them on the DNR website or even a link. There has to be more than just the “Fishing Guide”, right?

I believe the complete rules are on their site. At least it says they are in the Fishing Guide. But it's a possession limit right? Not a catching limit?

Tallbear
03-21-2011, 11:59 AM
Contact the law division in Lansing....... 517-373-3904


BTW...... The CO is correct on the limit of per person. You can't "help" a buddy fill his limit.

CrimDoc
03-21-2011, 12:00 PM
I don't know how the actual law reads ... but if the story is true as presented, that DNR officer seriously needs to GET A LIFE. This is a textbook example of why DNR officers (in general) have bad reputation for being on power trips.


Where would I find on the web laws that the DNR enforce?

A friend of mine went salmon fishing last weekend with his dad. Long story as short as I can make it: while out on the ice a DNR officer walks up and asks how many fish they had. He told the officer 9. (The limits 5 per person.) The officer said that he saw him (my friend) catch 4 and that he had a witness that seen him catch the other 5. He explained he was with his father that was fishing as well and they were under the limit of 10 total. Didn’t matter, the limit is set for each person, not by how many are there fishing. He got a ticket.

I would like to read through the laws dealing with fishing. I can’t seem to find them on the DNR website or even a link. There has to be more than just the “Fishing Guide”, right?

Garbo
03-21-2011, 12:03 PM
From a rule standpoint Tallbear is correct,, from a defence standpoint uless he admitted it to the C/O fight the ticket and make it your word agaist the witness if they even named em.

Daniels
03-21-2011, 12:04 PM
I don't know how the actual law reads ... but if the story is true as presented, that DNR officer seriously needs to GET A LIFE. This is a textbook example of why DNR officers (in general) have bad reputation for being on power trips.
Sounds like a witness probbaly called or said something. If so they have to act on what they are told. That's their job.

Eric D
03-21-2011, 12:13 PM
I don't know how the actual law reads ... but if the story is true as presented, that DNR officer seriously needs to GET A LIFE. This is a textbook example of why DNR officers (in general) have bad reputation for being on power trips.It is worse than I wrote. My friend really is a standup guy and just wants to do what is right. The DNR made threats, I’m paraphrasing, but something close to, “Ether you tell the truth or everything you have here including the four wheeler will be confiscated. We can keep this simple and easy or I can make it very hard on you! The fine will be much less then what it will cost to get your stuff back if you get it back at all!”

The officer took all 9 fish as well. My buddy is pretty shookup about the whole deal.

Eric D
03-21-2011, 12:14 PM
Sounds like a witness probbaly called or said something. If so they have to act on what they are told. That's their job.Where he fishes everyone knows everyone. He said their were a couple of guys they didn't know not to far off. He expects they were the lookers...

Dansjeep2000
03-21-2011, 12:16 PM
what was the fine?

Garbo
03-21-2011, 12:16 PM
Well either pay the fine since he was in the wrong,, or fight it as they cant confiscate his stuff now right :).

But that does sound like a strong arm technique. How do we even know he wasnt guessing?

Eric D
03-21-2011, 12:22 PM
Well either pay the fine since he was in the wrong,, or fight it as they cant confiscate his stuff now right :).

But that does sound like a strong arm technique. How do we even know he wasnt guessing?
My firend plans on just paying the fine as he said he was in the wrong. It's just the way it went down with the DNR. Yes, the DNR may very well have been guessing.

Tallbear
03-21-2011, 12:24 PM
It is worse than I wrote. My friend really is a standup guy and just wants to do what is right. The DNR made threats, I’m paraphrasing, but something close to, “Ether you tell the truth or everything you have here including the four wheeler will be confiscated. We can keep this simple and easy or I can make it very hard on you! The fine will be much less then what it will cost to get your stuff back if you get it back at all!”

The officer took all 9 fish as well. My buddy is pretty shookup about the

whole deal.

And what the CO said is true. And he didn't have to "cut him a break" by not taking everything. It's the law and the CO has discretion as to how he treats each case.

IF He can took it to court and he could hope the witnesses won't show. But if he losses, he will have not only the fine, but restitution and court costs to pay.

Groo
03-21-2011, 12:50 PM
These days its so simple to record every LEO encounter, more people really should do it. Either way, before you admit to anything, make it black and white as to what is going on "So you are saying either I admit to exceeding my limit or you will do everything in your power to make my life hell?" Maybe close out the conversation with "Please make sure you write down your name and badge number legibly on the ticket." to leave him wondering.

CrimDoc
03-21-2011, 12:54 PM
Yes, because police officers ALWAYS show up immediately when someone reports a "crime". They have no discretion whatsoever in laying charges either ... warning someone, or determining that no real offense has taken place are never options.

Sorry for the sarcasm ... but at best, I'll concede that BOTH the witness and the officer need to get a life.


Sounds like a witness probbaly called or said something. If so they have to act on what they are told. That's their job.

pkuptruck
03-21-2011, 01:29 PM
Yes, because police officers ALWAYS show up immediately when someone reports a "crime". They have no discretion whatsoever in laying charges either ... warning someone, or determining that no real offense has taken place are never options.

Sorry for the sarcasm ... but at best, I'll concede that BOTH the witness and the officer need to get a life.



right. ! and the fact that the OP BROKE the law should just be waved away... as it really doesnt matter.... Stupid DNR for making him break the law... :cuss:

esq_stu
03-21-2011, 02:12 PM
I don't fish real often, so, I'll ask a silly question: Do people really pay attention to how many fist others catch and then rat them out?

I do deal with LEO encounters, so I'll just comment on
"Ether you tell the truth or everything you have here including the four wheeler will be confiscated. We can keep this simple and easy or I can make it very hard on you! The fine will be much less then what it will cost to get your stuff back if you get it back at all!"Last time I checked, you don't have to admit anything.

Daniels
03-21-2011, 02:15 PM
I don't fish real often, so, I'll ask a silly question: Do people really pay attention to how many fist others catch and then rat them out?

I do deal with LEO encounters, so I'll just comment on Last time I checked, you don't have to admit anything.
I've never seen it happen but I'm sure it does often. I'm sure you have people that like fishing certain spots and worry about it getting fished out or guys that have gotten tickets in the past and now watch everyone else and so on. Just like LEO's I'm sure you'll see DNR writing more tickets to try and save their own jobs.

Shyster
03-21-2011, 02:18 PM
Take it to court. The prosecutors get a big kick out of the Crappie Cops.

:facepalm:

I remember once when I was negotiating a plea bargain up in Rochester Hills. A DNR officer was present and copmlained to the APA: "my boss feels you don't take our cases seriously enough." The roomful of attorneys collectively rolled their eyes.

Garbo
03-21-2011, 03:08 PM
Its a tough call on whether or not to say something. I was at kensington one time and there was a group fishing along the shore. Basicly a family with maybe an uncle or two there. I watched them take 8 inch bass after 8 inch bass and it was a week or two before opening day for bass. Had an officer happened by me i may have said something but would have been to the effect of maybe school them on whats legal and i dont want to see them get in trouble. Dunno if he would handle it that way but that would have been my request. But I wouldnt have gone out of my way. And back in the day I was a little less likely to speak up. I remember it to be a bit of a rough looking bunch and did seem like they were catching dinner. Didnt feel it was worth the potential conflict to address it on my own.

Brian D
03-21-2011, 03:16 PM
Contact the law division in Lansing....... 517-373-3904


BTW...... The CO is correct on the limit of per person. You can't "help" a buddy fill his limit.
:yeahthat:

I got nabbed a few years ago in the same situation. I ended up just paying, being the dumb kid I was.

CrimDoc
03-21-2011, 05:06 PM
I'm neither a fisherman, nor a DNR officer, so I'm a bit out of my element on the specifics ... but it seems that both the "witness" and the CO are being incredibly anal retentive about busting someone on a "technicality" (i.e. you have permits for 5 fish each, there are 2 of you, and you have 9 fish, which would be OK except that this guy saw you catch all 9 of the fish, so 4 are illegal, which means I'm ticketing you and confiscating all your fish).

For me, this seems like the equivalent of giving someone a ticket for going 1 MPH over the speed limit, or busting person for not having their CPL ON THEIR PERSON because their wallet is in their jacket pocket (which is on the back seat of a car) rather than in their pant pocket.

<Deleted - violation of AUP. -Mod> all around IMHO.


right. ! and the fact that the OP BROKE the law should just be waved away... as it really doesnt matter.... Stupid DNR for making him break the law... :cuss:

CrimDoc
03-21-2011, 05:26 PM
But that's just it ... those 2 guys were legally allowed to take 10 fish, they had only caught 9. So this isn't about protecting a resource or preventing a place from getting fished out. I appreciate that DNR rules are there for a reason and we need law enforcement to make sure that they are followed ... but whenever LEOs stop using reasonable discretion, we're all in serious trouble.


I've never seen it happen but I'm sure it does often. I'm sure you have people that like fishing certain spots and worry about it getting fished out or guys that have gotten tickets in the past and now watch everyone else and so on. Just like LEO's I'm sure you'll see DNR writing more tickets to try and save their own jobs.

Ruger
03-21-2011, 05:26 PM
A day on the ice with dad! Never a dull moment....

Limits and "in possession" are set in stone. They interpret it to fit the moment.

Try this one on for size! You and your buddy are out grouse hunting and he's the only one with a game pouch, combined total of 17 birds in his pouch 5 are yours, the DNR stop you and guess who has well over his "in possession limit"?

For some reason logical reasoning does not work on the DNR nor do they posses any of it!

TomE
03-21-2011, 05:28 PM
When <deleted - violation of AUP. -Mod> break the law , they should pay up . Homer Simpson knows that. I used to let someone with a patch and a badge drink coffee at my kitchen table looking for flags , over limit , indecent exposure etc.

TomE
03-21-2011, 05:30 PM
A day on the ice with dad! Never a dull moment....

Limits and "in possession" are set in stone. They interpret it to fit the moment.

Try this one on for size! You and your buddy are out grouse hunting and he's the only one with a game pouch, combined total of 7 birds in his pouch 5 are yours, the DNR stop you and guess who has well over his "in possession limit"?

For some reason logical reasoning does not work on the DNR nor do they posses any of it!

How did that GED Math class work out for you ?

Pistol Teacher
03-21-2011, 06:05 PM
If it was anyone but the DNR I would say fight it like Shyster said, but you do not have a prayer with a DNR officer. My advice is if you take up Duck Hunting learn quickly to split your ducks up in different piles or you will be in court again. Fines are more severe.

Lesson learned, now you are on a interstate watch list. You may be able to plead out to take a hunters ed class to drop the charges.

bad86ta
03-21-2011, 06:33 PM
I believe this is a common problem with DNR officers...

It appears to me that the friend of the op simply mis-understood the law and wasnt trying to break it.... It also appears that he was not rude and was cooperating with the DNR officer....

If the officer feels the ticket needed to be written then fine, I really don't have a problem with it... The law was broken and it is what it is...

But instead of being a jerk about it and threating to take all the man's gear how about you do the other part of your job and educate the public instead of just being a ticket writing machine...

The DNR in particular seems to be a real waste of money anymore... Very rarley do you see a DNR officer out educating people and trying to do conservation work anymore..

The only time I ever see them is when they are trying to write tickets... I think we could spend our money elsewhere and just pay someone 8 dollars an hour to spit out tickets.. I think they have already proven that they really cant do a very good job of managing our wildlife...

While I have never had any tickets from a DNR officer and I have always been legal when hunting, fishing, riding I have yet to have an expierence with a DNR officer where he didn't leave a sour taste in my mouth...

Common courtesy goes along way.. Take for instance snowmobiling up north... Most police officers we see and deal with are very pleasant... Want to ask you about trail conditions, the weather, how many riders you have seen, how the season has been, etc, etc... I realize they are checking my registraions and trail permits but at least they are pleasant... DNR officers usually just walk up, see if they can write you a ticket and leave...

GPintheMitten
03-21-2011, 06:40 PM
From what can tell from your post, your buddy caught 9. You can only catch 5. So, the CO may have been less than polite with him, but he did give him a break by not seizing everything. Seems like the buddy should have stopped fishing and watched his Dad fish.

We can't average our limits out in a fishing party.

And I don't think it is like getting a ticket for 1 mph over. It is more like going 90 in a 50mph zone.

Ruger
03-21-2011, 06:41 PM
How did that GED Math class work out for you ?

Oh my......my numbers were off! thank you so much for being an azzhat and picking on my GED skillz! :poke:

Ruger
03-21-2011, 06:42 PM
When <deleted - Mod> break the law , they should pay up . Homer Simpson knows that. I used to let someone with a patch and a badge drink coffee at my kitchen table looking for flags , over limit , indecent exposure etc.

So are you an informant? For the DNR? :tsk:

PackRat
03-21-2011, 06:59 PM
Where would I find on the web laws that the DNR enforce?

A friend of mine went salmon fishing last weekend with his dad. Long story as short as I can make it: while out on the ice a DNR officer walks up and asks how many fish they had. He told the officer 9. (The limits 5 per person.) The officer said that he saw him (my friend) catch 4 and that he had a witness that seen him catch the other 5. He explained he was with his father that was fishing as well and they were under the limit of 10 total. Didn’t matter, the limit is set for each person, not by how many are there fishing. He got a ticket.I would like to read through the laws dealing with fishing. I can’t seem to find them on the DNR website or even a link. There has to be more than just the “Fishing Guide”, right?

If his daily limit was five fish, based on your report, he exceeded his limit and deserved the ticket.

Michigan does not permit party fishing or party hunting, that is why there are individual creel and bag limits.

Thats the way the ball bounces.

wadevb1
03-21-2011, 07:22 PM
I don't know how the actual law reads ... but if the story is true as presented, that DNR officer seriously needs to GET A LIFE. This is a textbook example of why DNR officers (in general) have bad reputation for being on power trips.

Maybe people should fill out family members deer tags too.

Read the DNR reports, plenty of stories of them watching violations.

Keeps many honest.

I recommend watching a few segments of Wild Justice on Nat GEO.

aquatic-archer
03-22-2011, 09:34 AM
It is worse than I wrote. My friend really is a standup guy and just wants to do what is right. The DNR made threats, I’m paraphrasing, but something close to, “Ether you tell the truth or everything you have here including the four wheeler will be confiscated. We can keep this simple and easy or I can make it very hard on you! The fine will be much less then what it will cost to get your stuff back if you get it back at all!”

The officer took all 9 fish as well. My buddy is pretty shookup about the whole deal.

As far as the fish he can only take the ones over the limit.
Believe they charge by the pound on salmon.

wishn-i-was-fishn
03-22-2011, 11:53 AM
As far as the fish he can only take the ones over the limit.
Believe they charge by the pound on salmon.

Not challenging you just want to know for my benefit, is there a citation to a MCL or other to substantiate and validate what you stated above.

If I were to be in a court of law or face to face with a CO on an issue like this I want to know what MCL applies as just quoting what I read on an internet forum post won't carry much legal weight.

Thanks.

CnA
03-22-2011, 12:51 PM
I just want to know where they were fishing to get over the limit!

Daniels
03-22-2011, 01:08 PM
I just want to know where they were fishing to get over the limit!
Good point! LOL

TomE
03-22-2011, 01:15 PM
So are you an informant? For the DNR? :tsk:
I just used to let them park on my property , drink my coffee and use the restroom while watching violators and trespassers go over the limit .Along with people peeing in public , which is indecent exposure , littering on the ice and my property . Have you ever been to Cotton Rd. & Jefferson to ice fish ?If you won't follow the fishing rules , how can you be expected to follow gun laws ?

aquatic-archer
03-22-2011, 04:21 PM
Not challenging you just want to know for my benefit, is there a citation to a MCL or other to substantiate and validate what you stated above.

If I were to be in a court of law or face to face with a CO on an issue like this I want to know what MCL applies as just quoting what I read on an internet forum post won't carry much legal weight.

Thanks.

Was told this by a DNR officer as he was issuing a ticket to a gentleman last year for over limit on bluegills. He said that only the fish in violation of the law could be taken, as you are allowed the legal limit just not the overage.
I can ask a friend of mine that works for the DNR for specifics and let you know when I find out. But the best thing is just not break the law.

PackRat
03-22-2011, 05:58 PM
Was told this by a DNR officer as he was issuing a ticket to a gentleman last year for over limit on bluegills. He said that only the fish in violation of the law could be taken, as you are allowed the legal limit just not the overage.
I can ask a friend of mine that works for the DNR for specifics and let you know when I find out. But the best thing is just not break the law.


How does the CO know which fish as they aren't the ones that are in violation of the creel limit?

Only taking four fish is not evidence of anything but the fact that four fish were seized. One would think that it would take nine fish to prove that the violator was in fact four fish over the limit.

The same thing holds true for too many lines. If any rods are seized, they all are.

wishn-i-was-fishn
03-22-2011, 07:22 PM
I just want to know where they were fishing to get over the limit!

+1

wishn-i-was-fishn
03-22-2011, 07:29 PM
Was told this by a DNR officer as he was issuing a ticket to a gentleman last year for over limit on bluegills. He said that only the fish in violation of the law could be taken, as you are allowed the legal limit just not the overage.
I can ask a friend of mine that works for the DNR for specifics and let you know when I find out. But the best thing is just not break the law.

Thank you. Yes any other info is important, because just because a LEO or CO says it is so does not mean it is so. Sadly, many many LEOs and COs are often ignorant of the laws they are trying to enforce.
If it ever comes down to a court challenge only what is in the statutes, administrative rules, case law, etc has meaning.

Usually when I am told "this is the law" by anyone including LEOs, I try to politely ask for the cite to the law that makes it so. If it is not written down and codified somewhere it doesn't exist.

sullyxlh
03-23-2011, 09:17 AM
...and that he had a witness that seen him catch the other 5...I guess be thankful you weren't pissing and that witness wasn't one to get ya on the SOR....
There are no witnesses if your fishing out of a shanty
save yourself the BS next time and get one.

Eric D
03-23-2011, 11:48 AM
Thank you. Yes any other info is important, because just because a LEO or CO says it is so does not mean it is so. Sadly, many many LEOs and COs are often ignorant of the laws they are trying to enforce.
If it ever comes down to a court challenge only what is in the statutes, administrative rules, case law, etc has meaning.

Usually when I am told "this is the law" by anyone including LEOs, I try to politely ask for the cite to the law that makes it so. If it is not written down and codified somewhere it doesn't exist.Very good point! If I go to the gov site I can find the "Fishing Guide", but I would love to have links to the law. I might not be looking in the right place, but as far as I can tell getting to the law doesn't seem to be an option.

For those wondering about the location, I can tell you it was North of the bridge and in a very cold lake...that's about as much as I can say without having a angry friend....8)

Yep, the shanty was talked about, but like I said in the first few post, my friend is a first rate kind of guy and he truly just wants to do what is right. He misunderstood the rule, as did I and I bet many others too. It states possession limit, not catch limit. I can see how this can be confusing. I understand now, and part of the reason for posting this thread, I’m sure I wasn’t alone in my original interpretation.

CnA
03-23-2011, 12:01 PM
Very good point! If I go to the gov site I can find the "Fishing Guide", but I would love to have links to the law. I might not be looking in the right place, but as far as I can tell getting to the law doesn't seem to be an option.

For those wondering about the location, I can tell you it was North of the bridge and in a very cold lake...that's about as much as I can say without having a angry friend....8)

Yep, the shanty was talked about, but like I said in the first few post, my friend is a first rate kind of guy and he truly just wants to do what is right. He misunderstood the rule, as did I and I bet many others too. It states possession limit, not catch limit. I can see how this can be confusing. I understand now, and part of the reason for posting this thread, I’m sure I wasn’t alone in my original interpretation.
So......no GPS coordinates?????:grin:

Eric D
03-23-2011, 12:03 PM
So......no GPS coordinates?????:grin:If I ask I'm sure he will give me some....but I bet they won't be the right location!!

jacuzzibusguy
03-23-2011, 02:38 PM
Wash, Rinse, Repeat, can be utilized in more situations than just open carry encounters!

If you don't answer any of his questions, it would make his case against you much weaker.

I know it's been posted many times, but it's worth re-posting for those who have yet to see it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

PackRat
03-23-2011, 04:11 PM
Wash, Rinse, Repeat, can be utilized in more situations than just open carry encounters!

If you don't answer any of his questions, it would make his case against you much weaker.

I know it's been posted many times, but it's worth re-posting for those who have yet to see it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc


Like the old adage, "admit nothing, deny everything, demand proof".

And, when they introduce all your gear and fish that they seized, well I guess that it won't much matter whether you admitted being in violation of the law or not. Does "wash, rinse, repeat mean the same thing as telling the CO that his witness was all wet? I wonder how that would have worked.

Some people would rather just learn and comply with the law to begin with and they won't have the same issues with the CO's that are out there responding to complaints.

Pistol Teacher
03-23-2011, 08:29 PM
As far as the fish he can only take the ones over the limit.
Believe they charge by the pound on salmon.

Correct
324.48721 Maximum number of fish to be caught, killed, or possessed in single day; possession of fish illegally taken prohibited.

Sec. 48721.
(3) A person shall not possess a fish illegally taken.



Where would I find on the web laws that the DNR enforce?

A friend of mine went salmon fishing last weekend with his dad. Long story as short as I can make it: while out on the ice a DNR officer walks up and asks how many fish they had. He told the officer 9. (The limits 5 per person.) The officer said that he saw him (my friend) catch 4 and that he had a witness that seen him catch the other 5. He explained he was with his father that was fishing as well and they were under the limit of 10 total. Didn’t matter, the limit is set for each person, not by how many are there fishing. He got a ticket.

I would like to read through the laws dealing with fishing. I can’t seem to find them on the DNR website or even a link. There has to be more than just the “Fishing Guide”, right?


http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-324-48740

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-451-1994-III-2-3

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(03xdmeukxbzl0c55a3ilw355))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-324-48721

Doat
03-23-2011, 08:55 PM
It is worse than I wrote. My friend really is a standup guy and just wants to do what is right. The DNR made threats, I’m paraphrasing, but something close to, “Ether you tell the truth or everything you have here including the four wheeler will be confiscated. We can keep this simple and easy or I can make it very hard on you! The fine will be much less then what it will cost to get your stuff back if you get it back at all!”

The officer took all 9 fish as well. My buddy is pretty shookup about the whole deal.

RULE of LAW or RULE OF MAN I know its sad, but we have a fudged up system. When the citizens grow tired of it only then it will change.

PackRat
03-24-2011, 08:20 AM
Correct


While there are provisions for poundage fines, the fact remains, that the LEO is NOT prohibited from seizing all the fish in possession of the violator.

Therefore, your response of "correct" is not totally accurate, making it incorrect.

I mean think about it, how does the CO know which order the fish were caught in? Or, what if he seized the four heaviest when in fact they were the first ones caught. Or.....

The CO can seize them all if they want so the court can sort it out.

TomE
03-24-2011, 08:55 AM
A day on the ice with dad! Never a dull moment....

Limits and "in possession" are set in stone. They interpret it to fit the moment.

Try this one on for size! You and your buddy are out grouse hunting and he's the only one with a game pouch, combined total of 17 birds in his pouch 5 are yours, the DNR stop you and guess who has well over his "in possession limit"?

For some reason logical reasoning does not work on the DNR nor do they posses any of it!

Your math is getting better , but I was posting about the math in the OP's post on top about being over the limit of 5 , and how thats illegal ,which you posted about .Carry on without AUP violations.

Pistol Teacher
03-24-2011, 10:58 AM
While there are provisions for poundage fines, the fact remains, that the LEO is NOT prohibited from seizing all the fish in possession of the violator.

Therefore, your response of "correct" is not totally accurate, making it incorrect.

I mean think about it, how does the CO know which order the fish were caught in? Or, what if he seized the four heaviest when in fact they were the first ones caught. Or.....

The CO can seize them all if they want so the court can sort it out.

Oh I am correct so is the other guy who posted it.

It says shall. (3) A person shall not possess a fish illegally taken. You need to read it.

PackRat
03-24-2011, 11:51 AM
Oh I am correct so is the other guy who posted it.

It says shall. (3) A person shall not possess a fish illegally taken. You need to read it.

I have read it.

Think about this for a minute. You are saying that the CO may only seize those fish illegally taken. The kicker here is that there were nine fish on the ice when only five were permitted.

ALL the fish (in possession)may be seized as evidence of an unlawful act (too many fish in possession). To claim otherwise is ludicrous.

Lets try another example. Say you have a medical marihuana card and you get popped with a kilo. Do you really think that a cop is going to weigh up your legal limit and return it to you? Get real.

Pistol Teacher
03-24-2011, 12:21 PM
I have read it.

Think about this for a minute. You are saying that the CO may only seize those fish illegally taken. The kicker here is that there were nine fish on the ice when only five were permitted.

ALL the fish (in possession)may be seized as evidence of an unlawful act (too many fish in possession). To claim otherwise is ludicrous.

Lets try another example. Say you have a medical marihuana card and you get popped with a kilo. Do you really think that a cop is going to weigh up your legal limit and return it to you? Get real.

You are incorrect still. Hmmm last time.

It says Illegally taken not all the fish.

aquatic-archer
03-24-2011, 01:21 PM
Correct
324.48721 Maximum number of fish to be caught, killed, or possessed in single day; possession of fish illegally taken prohibited.

Sec. 48721.
(3) A person shall not possess a fish illegally taken.





http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-324-48740

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-451-1994-III-2-3

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(03xdmeukxbzl0c55a3ilw355))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-324-48721
If you are going to post links for info make sure they are current. These laws have changed and are no longer valid. Outdated by 16 years.

pkuptruck
03-24-2011, 01:23 PM
If you are going to post links for info make sure they are current. These laws have changed and are no longer valid. Outdated by 16 years.


when I checked the links... all seemed pretty current ( ammended as of april 2006, etc...) :shrugs:

oldskoolford427
03-24-2011, 01:41 PM
I don't know how the actual law reads ... but if the story is true as presented, that DNR officer seriously needs to GET A LIFE. This is a textbook example of why DNR officers (in general) have bad reputation for being on power trips.
+1
Make the CO produce the witness!!!

Pistol Teacher
03-24-2011, 02:05 PM
If you are going to post links for info make sure they are current. These laws have changed and are no longer valid. Outdated by 16 years.

It is current read the bottom ammended in the last 5 years dec 23 2006

aquatic-archer
03-24-2011, 06:20 PM
Note at top of page say's amended April 1, 2011 so I apologize as the new rules that I was going by don't apply until then and there are some major changes.

Buzzcat
03-24-2011, 06:48 PM
Pay the fine, plea for no further sanctions, and get on with it.

You won't beat the DNR. Not because they're not unbeatable, but because you don't think they'll show up at your fishing hole or deer blind and you end up getting busted at a moment's notice with your pants down.

Go to bidcorp.com and see all the confiscated firearms the DNR is auctioning off right now...

If you wanna take 'em on, then take 'em on... otherwise, just play by the state game laws and enjoy your day, which is what every responsible hunter and fisherman should do in any case.

My two cents....

PackRat
03-24-2011, 07:33 PM
You are incorrect still. Hmmm last time.

It says Illegally taken not all the fish.

Do you really expect a LEO to say, "Your honor, I let the perpetrator eat (or smoke) the rest of the evidence because some internet guru said that I couldn't seize all the evidence of wrongdoing".


Common sense says that a LEO would connect the dots with the evidence, not release it.

How can one reasonably expect to prove that somebody was over the limit by four fish if they didn't have the first five?

jeepxj2007
03-26-2011, 12:06 AM
I don't see how that would fly in court...even if you catch your limit of fish of a certain species where is there a law saying you cant keep fishing for other species unless you admitted to it... I don't see how they could prove that you were diliberately fishing for a specific species...

pkuptruck
03-26-2011, 04:15 AM
I don't see how that would fly in court...even if you catch your limit of fish of a certain species where is there a law saying you cant keep fishing for other species unless you admitted to it... I don't see how they could prove that you were diliberately fishing for a specific species...

thats where the informant and CO observations come in.... pretty handy too..:sleeping:

PackRat
03-26-2011, 08:25 AM
I don't see how that would fly in court...even if you catch your limit of fish of a certain species where is there a law saying you cant keep fishing for other species unless you admitted to it... I don't see how they could prove that you were diliberately fishing for a specific species...

This doesn't have to do with the act of fishing as much as it does the act of unlawful possession over the legal limit.

The bottom line is, you can't have nearly double your legal limit laying on the ice under the guise of a party creel limit.

Evidence is evidence and the LEO can seize all (9 fish) the evidence, rods, reels, the whole nine yards. LEO's can seize guns and trucks for shining violations. LEO's can seize guns on drug violations. It happens all the time.

mjerickson
03-26-2011, 08:39 AM
I guess its possable the CO lied about having a wittness, if your friends wanted to call that bluff he could have told the CO, "lets dance" and risk loosing everything, gear, quad, shanty ect. If you buddy didnt break the law or or the CO really didnt have a wittness then they would both walk away clean. All the CO would have to do on the day of court "Sorry your honor my wittness failed to appear" case dismissed. Its no diffrent than cops using the tactic of "admit to the murder and we wont ask for the death penalty" I know that is extreme but how about "admit to the lesser charge and it wont hurt as much". This usually works when the defendant is in the wrong to one degree or another.


THen again why couldnt your friend just say the first 3 fish I caught I GAVE to my dad. You can give away legally caught fish to ANYONE you want. YES I caught them but they are NO LONGER in my possession. Might be a tough sell but if you get a good lawyer it could work.

PackRat
03-26-2011, 08:51 AM
THen again why couldnt your friend just say the first 3 fish I caught I GAVE to my dad. You can give away legally caught fish to ANYONE you want. YES I caught them but they are NO LONGER in my possession. Might be a tough sell but if you get a good lawyer it could work.

A tough sell that won't fly.

Speaking of flying, waterfowlers know that they actually have to keep their bag limit seperated. No pile of ducks in the boat is permitted. Each hunter is supposed to have his bag limit seperate from the other. The same holds true for geese in the field. No big pile (until the glory shot).

Party creel and bag limits are unlawful. Why mess around, especially out on the ice (or water) in front of God and everybody?

marlin336
03-26-2011, 05:22 PM
I don't know how the actual law reads ... but if the story is true as presented, that DNR officer seriously needs to GET A LIFE. This is a textbook example of why DNR officers (in general) have bad reputation for being on power trips.

Amen Brother.....Very sad state when they push things like this yet let indians and commercial fisheries run rampant and over fish the great lakes.

PackRat
03-26-2011, 10:55 PM
Amen Brother.....Very sad state when they push things like this yet let indians and commercial fisheries run rampant and over fish the great lakes.

Hell, why have any rules at all?

Ruger
03-27-2011, 12:37 AM
thats where the informant and CO observations come in.... pretty handy too..:sleeping:
:yeahthat: :roshambo:

trigger
03-27-2011, 09:47 AM
Ok a possession question.If 5 per person is allowed and 2 people are fishing and they end up with 9.All fish go in the same cooler in #1s car-who has possession and is #1 in violation?

Eric D
03-27-2011, 10:11 AM
Ok a possession question.If 5 per person is allowed and 2 people are fishing and they end up with 9.All fish go in the same cooler in #1s car-who has possession and is #1 in violation?In years past my fishing friends and I have done this. From the postings in the thread, if you are in the car alone and DNR pulls you over and finds them you would be found in violation, plus the officer can take all your stuff as well! :poed:

pkuptruck
03-27-2011, 10:24 AM
In years past my fishing friends and I have done this. From the postings in the thread, if you are in the car alone and DNR pulls you over and finds them you would be found in violation, plus the officer can take all your stuff as well! :poed:


from this thread... no such could happen... why?
- the DNR CO wasnt watching you.
- the CO didnt get an informant to rat you out..

TomE
03-27-2011, 11:38 AM
:yeahthat: :roshambo:
Don't forget about that video camera

Skinner 2
03-28-2011, 12:09 PM
[QUOTE=p- the CO didnt get an informant to rat you out..[/QUOTE]


If noting was done 'WRONG" then there would have been nothing to be ratted out. DNR uses lots of informants as does any law enforcement agency.

Skinner

CnA
03-28-2011, 12:35 PM
If noting was done 'WRONG" then there would have been nothing to be ratted out. DNR uses lots of informants as does any law enforcement agency.

Skinner
And we all know that all informants are fine, upstanding and ethical people that would never lie.......
:rofl:

PackRat
03-28-2011, 01:13 PM
And we all know that all informants are fine, upstanding and ethical people that would never lie.......
:rofl:


But, in this case, it sounds more like the info came from a witness that may have been the one reporting the violation.

Eric D
03-28-2011, 01:52 PM
Here's a couple of questions for ya, if you ask an informant if they are working with or for the DNR are they obligated by law to answer truthfully?

Can the DNR work undercover? :naughty: If they are undercover and you walk by and ask if they are DNR do they have to disclose?

TomE
03-28-2011, 02:23 PM
Here's a couple of questions for ya, if you ask an informant if they are working with or for the DNR are they obligated by law to answer truthfully?

Can the DNR work undercover? :naughty: If they are undercover and you walk by and ask if they are DNR do they have to disclose?

1) It was stated that informants lie , so there's your answer to that one

2) Your on the wrong side of the badge

Skinner 2
03-28-2011, 08:44 PM
According to what I saw, the DNR informants can point out a person who the informant saw violating a law ( this was river salmon and steelhead). They call on cell phones or radios even. The DNR still has to observe the violation or get a confession from the "violator". Tickets are not issued on informants information only.

Even here the OP said they were party fishing. NO different then a person shooting 6 bucks and "sharing" them with friend.

Ice fishing the warden have been using spotting scopes and watching from long distances.

Skinner

langenc
03-28-2011, 10:03 PM
Sound like a couple over this way--discretionary power--they love it.

I guess I never thought about catching limit vs bag limit.

I hunted with a guy that would shoot all my birds till I walked off and left him on one hunt.

Monroe
03-28-2011, 11:34 PM
..

Eric D
03-29-2011, 05:46 AM
Ever go with a group of buddies on a salmon charter? Say four in the group plus captain and mate, equals 6 times the limit, all in one giant cooler or well. And you fish until the boat limits out (hopefully). Captain and mate never wet a line. They usually run two lines per person, including the crew, too. DNR could ticket every charter on the water, but they never do.
Good point. Do they have special rules they are privlaged to use or does the DNR look the other way because it's a commercial operation?

Skinner 2
03-29-2011, 11:57 AM
Ever go with a group of buddies on a salmon charter? Say four in the group plus captain and mate, equals 6 times the limit, all in one giant cooler or well. And you fish until the boat limits out (hopefully). Captain and mate never wet a line. They usually run two lines per person, including the crew, too. DNR could ticket every charter on the water, but they never do.

When ws the last time you went? I have a couple friends that run charters and they no longer allow the Capt or mates limites. Least in Michigan.

Skinner

007bondjamesbond007
03-29-2011, 01:21 PM
The guy should of toss the extra four fish back in the lake. If his father catches it before it hits the frozen water is it now legal?

bluegill
03-29-2011, 03:51 PM
When ws the last time you went? I have a couple friends that run charters and they no longer allow the Capt or mates limites. Least in Michigan.

Skinner

Same here. It was a lake trout charter and when I caught my two fish, I was a spectator. The mate and captain didn't fish and no one kept extra fish just because they were on board.

Catch your limit and quit. It's not worth a misdemeanor and criminal record.

Monroe
03-30-2011, 08:58 PM
..

Skinner 2
03-30-2011, 11:55 PM
I have not been on a charter than has come close to limiting in about 6 or 7 years, so the issue really hasn't come up recently, but that has been my experience in the past on numerous salmon charters.
I see that they have increased the line limit from two to three, and the number of hooks/lures from four to six, but I can't find any reference in the current rules to captains and mates. What page is that rule on? It actually sounds like a good rule to me.
2010 Michigan Fishing Guide (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/full-no-ads_272056_7.pdf)

There really isn't nothing in the "guides" we get. I have a couple friend that charter for both salmon and walleyes. They do not let clients catch "their" fish. Call and ask any Capt if they will allow you to catch their limits along with yours.

Here is another one as explained by a Michigan Co to me. OK your out on a boat with three guys. Limit per person is 5. Three lines allowed each person. there are 14 fish in the cooler/live box. How many rods can be in the water?












The Answer I was told was 3. Only rods for the last person needing to fill his limit.

Skinner

Almostnoddedoff
03-31-2011, 08:23 AM
Couldn't one limit on steel or salmon and still conceivably be fishing for eyes?

pkuptruck
03-31-2011, 08:28 AM
Couldn't one limit on steel or salmon and still conceivably be fishing for eyes?

not with spawn bags....:whistle:

bluegill
03-31-2011, 10:55 AM
I have not been on a charter than has come close to limiting in about 6 or 7 years, so the issue really hasn't come up recently, but that has been my experience in the past on numerous salmon charters.
I see that they have increased the line limit from two to three, and the number of hooks/lures from four to six, but I can't find any reference in the current rules to captains and mates. What page is that rule on? It actually sounds like a good rule to me.
2010 Michigan Fishing Guide (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/full-no-ads_272056_7.pdf)


It has never been legal to catch a limit for someone else. The entire concept doesn't even make sense. It may have been some type of accepted practice on salmon charters years ago but that doesn't make it right, and I doubt that it was widespread. All someone with half a conscience would need to do is make a phone call to the rap line. It's bad enough that they make a living off of fish planted using license fees for sporting use, but then to allow anyone to catch over the limit? Someone would bust them.

Scoop
03-31-2011, 04:29 PM
Sadly, many many LEOs and COs are often ignorant of the laws they are trying to enforce.And even more sadly, there are many, many people who knowingly and willingly break the law, get caught, then get all pissy and angry when the LEO or CO doesn't "cut them a break".

pkuptruck
03-31-2011, 05:28 PM
And even more sadly, there are many, many people who knowingly and willingly break the law, get caught, then get all pissy and angry when the LEO or CO doesn't "cut them a break".

:welcome:
glad to see you jump back in Scoop!

Had a bit too much of the "its the CO's fault I broke the law and he caught me" STUFF...

MINI-14MAN
04-01-2011, 07:40 AM
If your on the ice,water,or in the woods,know the laws.Ignorance is no excuse.