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chosos
09-07-2011, 02:19 PM
I'm sure many of us are wanting to do this, while keeping costs down. Is there anything already existing out there that can be easily modified, or any stock software that can be used to generate simply NFA trusts?

$400 spent on setting up an NFA trust is $400 I could put towards either another suppressor, or towards buying a better first suppressor.

mini4m3
09-07-2011, 02:26 PM
There is Will Creating software that will handle trusts but unless you know exactly what you're doing I would think about it before taking that dive.

A lot of people use this type of software to setup their trusts for NFA purchases all over the country. If you plan on going this route read,read,read,read, etc. and make sure you know exactly what you're creating, how to use it, and the rest of the bag.

chosos
09-07-2011, 02:39 PM
Well, if one person gets the template perfected, wouldn't it essentially be plug and go for everyone else - with the names changing?

I can't imagine most of these would have to be totally unique from person to person.

RECON762WT
09-07-2011, 03:18 PM
I might give the quicken will maker software a try. It $35 to use, if the end product looks like an abortion I will go the lawyer rout. I have been doing a ton of reading on the subject and many people have used the software with great success (i have yet to find a failure).

Interested to see other comments in the thread. If someone has already done it I would love to hear about your experience. :thumbup:

chosos
09-07-2011, 03:28 PM
should we compile a list of threads on the topic or suggestions for setting up an NFA trust and pin it in here?

i have to think 90% of these forms will be the same.

rjrivero
09-07-2011, 03:38 PM
should we compile a list of threads on the topic or suggestions for setting up an NFA trust and pin it in here?

i have to think 90% of these forms will be the same.
The trust itself isn't hard to cut and paste. However, there are some nuances of law from state to state that need to be addressed. You definitely want a LAWYER to at least review your trust.

Worst case scenario: Your trust sneaks by the ATF and you get your Title 3 toy. Later, as the ATF begins to recognize Michigan more closely, you attempt to get a new NFA item, and your Trust is recognized as invalid. Your stamp is revoked, and you end up with un-registered NFA items in your possession.

CnA
09-07-2011, 03:40 PM
I might give the quicken will maker software a try. It $35 to use, if the end product looks like an abortion I will go the lawyer rout. I have been doing a ton of reading on the subject and many people have used the software with great success (i have yet to find a failure).

Interested to see other comments in the thread. If someone has already done it I would love to hear about your experience. :thumbup:
The 2011 Quicken Will Maker software (Owned by Nolo) DOES NOT have trusts as part of the package. When you install the software, it gives you the option of using their website to create a living trust. It's very clunky, hard to navigate, and you only get a .pdf of the final trust. It makes it impossible to edit unless you have a .pdf editor. To make it worse, there are Nolo's branding and name scattered in the document to show the world who did it.

Here is a website showing other issues with using Quicken Will Maker for NFA items, http://nevadaguntrustattorney.com/2011/04/07/gun-trust-issues-using-quicken-willmaker/

RECON762WT
09-07-2011, 03:47 PM
The 2011 Quicken Will Maker software (Owned by Nolo) DOES NOT have trusts as part of the package.
Waa..waa. I stand corrected.

chosos
09-07-2011, 03:51 PM
what about something like:
http://livingtrustsontheweb.com/pages/index.html

?

kevins_garage
09-07-2011, 05:22 PM
The 2011 Quicken Will Maker software (Owned by Nolo) DOES NOT have trusts as part of the package. When you install the software, it gives you the option of using their website to create a living trust. It's very clunky, hard to navigate, and you only get a .pdf of the final trust. It makes it impossible to edit unless you have a .pdf editor. To make it worse, there are Nolo's branding and name scattered in the document to show the world who did it.

Here is a website showing other issues with using Quicken Will Maker for NFA items, http://nevadaguntrustattorney.com/2011/04/07/gun-trust-issues-using-quicken-willmaker/
Qwm or other diy routes may not be the best option for an nfa trust with 50 or 100k worth of stuff in it, but they should be fine for a suppressor or two..

wrinkledshirt
09-07-2011, 05:32 PM
See here:

http://www.arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy_NFA_class3_weapons_with_a_revocable_liv ing_trust_without_a_CLEO_signoff.html

I haven't done it myself, but the link looks like it contains very detailed instructions. The guy who says "don't use Willmaker" is a lawyer who does trusts himself, so he has a vested interest in steering folks away from Willmaker. I haven't had time to look into his claims further.

kdogg
09-08-2011, 09:29 PM
Sorta in the same boat here. I was all for having one of the MGO lawyers help me setup a NFA Trust but the cost of the trust would be the same as my suppressor.

Well, not exactly but the one I want is like $200.00, the tax stamp is $200.00, no idea on dealer costs. For someone who plans to just buy a single .22LR suppressor, I don't want it to turn into a $1000.00+ dollars process for a Walther P22!

:)

Wondering about a CLEO sign off. I have no problems submitting finger prints etc. Already went threw all of this for my CPL, what difference does it make at this point.

chosos
09-09-2011, 11:25 AM
Sorta in the same boat here. I was all for having one of the MGO lawyers help me setup a NFA Trust but the cost of the trust would be the same as my suppressor.

Well, not exactly but the one I want is like $200.00, the tax stamp is $200.00, no idea on dealer costs. For someone who plans to just buy a single .22LR suppressor, I don't want it to turn into a $1000.00+ dollars process for a Walther P22!

:)

Wondering about a CLEO sign off. I have no problems submitting finger prints etc. Already went threw all of this for my CPL, what difference does it make at this point.

one of the things that keeps popping up in my reading is that having a lawyer do it places the burden of fault on that entity should anything happen and you get revoked. Then you won't be liable for 250k in fines and 10yrs in jail for possession of an illegal NFA device. I cant find a single case of this happening where someone was actually charged, but i'm still digging around.

I also think sudden revocation and then immediately getting charged with unlawful NFA device possession sounds an awful lot like entrapment. Its like all the theories surrounding 922r compliance. There's all these stories, but nothing really out there.

I don't like being forced into having a lawyer craft up the document just for the sake of having it done. It should be something we're able to do ourselves with due diligence and research.

If 90% of us are doing an NFA trust for the sole purpose of legally buying a silencer, why would anything beyond the beneficiary names be changing?

CrimDoc
09-09-2011, 01:18 PM
I just have to make one quick comment about the "elephant in the room":

Isn't it absolutely INSANE that people have to go through all of this :bs: to purchase a simple device that muffles the sound of a firearm?

Good thing we don't have to set up NFA trusts and get tax stamps to buy ear plugs ... or none of us could EVER go shooting (at least not without hearing loss).

OK ... end of rant ...

chosos
09-09-2011, 01:30 PM
I just have to make one quick comment about the "elephant in the room":

Isn't it absolutely INSANE that people have to go through all of this :bs: to purchase a simple device that muffles the sound of a firearm?

Good thing we don't have to set up NFA trusts and get tax stamps to buy ear plugs ... or none of us could EVER go shooting (at least not without hearing loss).

OK ... end of rant ...

You mirror my rant, as well and it is quite the elephant. I guess this is also why its so hard for me to justify having to utilize an attorney to create paperwork to obtain said device. I'm glad we can finally own them, but I still don't even understand why its a restricted device to begin with. :(

stainless1911
09-09-2011, 01:52 PM
Me too. My P-22 was 471$, The suppressor would cost about 500$, the stamp at 200$ and the trust at 400$. :coocoo: :wtf:

Id bet that in a year, you'll see them on the black market for a hundred.

johnzilla
09-09-2011, 02:44 PM
Personally, I think it is absolutely insane to think that something you pay $35 for (or less) could be counted on for something serious like a NFA trust.

I'm a full-on supporter of DIY but sometimes trying to save some bucks isn't worth the risk.

I'm not a lawyer and try to avoid using one whenever I can. But sometimes it is just the smart thing to do.

If you don't think you need a trust or don't want to pay a lawyer, then just don't have a trust. That's a lot better than trying to fudge something together with some janky website or some $30 shareware and crossing your fingers. And IMHO using a trust document that someone else used and just putting your name in instead is even sillier.

rjrivero
09-09-2011, 02:58 PM
You mirror my rant, as well and it is quite the elephant. I guess this is also why its so hard for me to justify having to utilize an attorney to create paperwork to obtain said device. I'm glad we can finally own them, but I still don't even understand why its a restricted device to begin with. :(
A quick history of the NFA may be in order.

Originally, the National Firearms Act of 1934, came about because of a "perfect storm" in American History. We had just repealed prohibition. This period in American history was hallmarked with violence as American Organized crime cashed in from 1918-1933 by stilling and boot-legging the booze that provided the capitol they needed to get themselves organized. The ruthlessness and violence of the era were hallmarked with machine guns and pistols. The organized criminals were quick to adapt semi-automatics while the police at the time were still carrying their trusty wheelguns. Out gunned, and desperate, the government siezed the opportunity to push this gun control measure.

Originally, the NFA was to regulate the weapons of the gangsters. It would provide additional charges with which they could hold these gansters in federal prison while the government continued to chip away at their massive organization.

So, originally, they wanted to take "trenchcoat" guns off the streets. Those are the Machine guns, short barreled or sawed off shotguns, sawed off rifles, and pistols. YES, I said PISTOLS.

The NFA, as it was originally drafted was to keep PISTOLS off the street.

After some bickering back and forth, it was decided that pistols would be left OFF the NFA registry, and silencers would be added.

Remember at this time, we were in the GREAT DEPRESSION. Some folks, feeling the pinch of the breadlines, reverted to wild game to keep their families fed. This spawned a "cottage industry" of folks poaching game and selling it to others. In an effort to better catch these poachers, the DNR wanted to get silencers added to the NFA so they could use the sound of the report to find folks shooting in the woods.

So, in the history of things, I'm glad that PISTOLS were removed from the NFA, but I'm damn pissed that the NFA was passed at all.

CnA
09-09-2011, 03:02 PM
Personally, I think it is absolutely insane to think that something you pay $35 for (or less) could be counted on for something serious like a NFA trust.

I'm a full-on supporter of DIY but sometimes trying to save some bucks isn't worth the risk.

I'm not a lawyer and try to avoid using one whenever I can. But sometimes it is just the smart thing to do.

If you don't think you need a trust or don't want to pay a lawyer, then just don't have a trust. That's a lot better than trying to fudge something together with some janky website or some $30 shareware and crossing your fingers. And IMHO using a trust document that someone else used and just putting your name in instead is even sillier.
I agree in part, but paying a lawyer $400 for a duplicated form is way out of line and excessive. Sure there is research on the attorneys part to get it right per MI law, but after that, doing a simple NFA trust is just a matter of plugging in different names for different people. If a person wants more than what is on the standard form, then pay for the attorneys time.

I'm not giving a lawyer a free pass to rob me just because he is gun friendly.

stainless1911
09-09-2011, 03:15 PM
The crime here, was the fed trying to prevent people from feeding thier families. If Im hungry enough, Im going out to get a rabbit squirrel or deer as well.

swaker3333
09-09-2011, 03:16 PM
Look for a different lawyer that charges less or suck it up and pay it. If you get NFA paperwork I doubt you can "just buy one". It's an addiction.

Tom M
09-09-2011, 03:27 PM
Maybe we could talk some attorney into giving us a group rate. :brow:

Shyster
09-09-2011, 04:15 PM
Maybe we could talk some attorney into giving us a group rate. :brow:
Maybe you could http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=147300

CrimDoc
09-09-2011, 04:16 PM
Thanks for the history lesson (that's sincere, not sarcastic ... I knew some that, but not all of it).

It illustrates an important point too ... BEWARE anytime the government passes some sort of "emergency" measure to deal with a particular problem ... because, chances are ... that measure will NEVER go away. Governments LOVE to make rules and regulations ... they are loathe to eliminate them. This is a fine example.

And BTW, I agree with Stainless ... passing legislation that makes it easier to catch "poachers" who are just trying to feed their families during a depression is offensive. Another example of "it's more important to make sure that rules are being followed, than it is to make sure that people are being respected."


A quick history of the NFA may be in order.

Originally, the National Firearms Act of 1934, came about because of a "perfect storm" in American History. We had just repealed prohibition. This period in American history was hallmarked with violence as American Organized crime cashed in from 1918-1933 by stilling and boot-legging the booze that provided the capitol they needed to get themselves organized. The ruthlessness and violence of the era were hallmarked with machine guns and pistols. The organized criminals were quick to adapt semi-automatics while the police at the time were still carrying their trusty wheelguns. Out gunned, and desperate, the government siezed the opportunity to push this gun control measure.

Originally, the NFA was to regulate the weapons of the gangsters. It would provide additional charges with which they could hold these gansters in federal prison while the government continued to chip away at their massive organization.

So, originally, they wanted to take "trenchcoat" guns off the streets. Those are the Machine guns, short barreled or sawed off shotguns, sawed off rifles, and pistols. YES, I said PISTOLS.

The NFA, as it was originally drafted was to keep PISTOLS off the street.

After some bickering back and forth, it was decided that pistols would be left OFF the NFA registry, and silencers would be added.

Remember at this time, we were in the GREAT DEPRESSION. Some folks, feeling the pinch of the breadlines, reverted to poaching game to keep their families fed. In an effort to better catch these poachers, the DNR wanted to get silencers added to the NFA so they could use the sound of the report to find folks shooting in the woods.

So, in the history of things, I'm glad that PISTOLS were removed from the NFA, but I'm damn pissed that the NFA was passed at all.

kpearce
09-10-2011, 08:10 PM
I have been talking with my wife about this. She is a lawyer and fully supports and defends 2A rights. What many don't realize is that about a year ago Michigan enacted a trust code that mandates certain provisions must be in a trust. DIY may not be up-to-date with this.

It is better to have a knowledgeable estate planning attorney draft your trust than draft an invalid trust for yourself. Do they cost a lot? Probaly; most likely. But a knowledgeable spends hours after law school staying current with the law. I am trying to get her to post the a la carte breakdown of her flat fee, but she has been busy. Perhaps tomorrow she can enlighten us.

stainless1911
09-10-2011, 08:11 PM
We always welcome her input.

mpearce
09-10-2011, 08:17 PM
Well, if one person gets the template perfected, wouldn't it essentially be plug and go for everyone else - with the names changing?

I can't imagine most of these would have to be totally unique from person to person.

Under Michigan's new trust law, no this is not the solution.

mpearce
09-10-2011, 08:24 PM
Personally, I think it is absolutely insane to think that something you pay $35 for (or less) could be counted on for something serious like a NFA trust.

I'm a full-on supporter of DIY but sometimes trying to save some bucks isn't worth the risk.

I'm not a lawyer and try to avoid using one whenever I can. But sometimes it is just the smart thing to do.

If you don't think you need a trust or don't want to pay a lawyer, then just don't have a trust. That's a lot better than trying to fudge something together with some janky website or some $30 shareware and crossing your fingers. And IMHO using a trust document that someone else used and just putting your name in instead is even sillier.

You are right. I never draft a trust by merely changing names. That would be malpractice on my part. Every family's estate planning goals differ and require a tailored trust to the estate and goals.

But if you want to DIY then you can only blame yourself when it fails. I do not review DIY trusts as I would end up charging more (hourly rate) than I would have charged to draft it myself ( flat fee).

mpearce
09-10-2011, 08:30 PM
I agree in part, but paying a lawyer $400 for a duplicated form is way out of line and excessive. Sure there is research on the attorneys part to get it right per MI law, but after that, doing a simple NFA trust is just a matter of plugging in different names for different people. If a person wants more than what is on the standard form, then pay for the attorneys time.

I'm not giving a lawyer a free pass to rob me just because he is gun friendly.

It is not that simple. The trust should be tailored to the individual or there is a risk of malpractice. It like asking a surgeon to operate without considering a health history just because he has performed the operation hundreds of thousands times before.

rjrivero
09-10-2011, 08:30 PM
The crime here, was the fed trying to prevent people from feeding thier families. If Im hungry enough, Im going out to get a rabbit squirrel or deer as well.
Thanks for the history lesson (that's sincere, not sarcastic ... I knew some that, but not all of it).

It illustrates an important point too ... BEWARE anytime the government passes some sort of "emergency" measure to deal with a particular problem ... because, chances are ... that measure will NEVER go away. Governments LOVE to make rules and regulations ... they are loathe to eliminate them. This is a fine example.

And BTW, I agree with Stainless ... passing legislation that makes it easier to catch "poachers" who are just trying to feed their families during a depression is offensive. Another example of "it's more important to make sure that rules are being followed, than it is to make sure that people are being respected."I'm glad to share what I have learned. I'm glad you found it interesting.

Whenever the Government gets involved with telling you what is good for you, it should raise your "spidey senses." There is nothing wrong with the Constitution as written. Government SHOULD be limited. The fact that the Government has been expanding at every chance it gets, should raise concerns for all Americans. I HIGHLY doubt there has been a President since our founding fathers that truly understood what it takes to make a Republic flourish.

I edited my previous post. It wasn't necessarily the folks feeding their families they were concerned with, it was the poachers who would harvest game and sell it. That was really the focus of the silencer deal in the NFA.

stainless1911
09-10-2011, 08:34 PM
That's different.

rjrivero
09-10-2011, 08:39 PM
That's different.
Yeah. I knew what I wanted to say, then I went back and read it, and that part REALLY didn't come across right.

mpearce
09-10-2011, 08:45 PM
My husband has been bugging me to post on my fees here with the NFA trust discussion. I charge a flat fee for a trust package. My trust package includes the will, trust, financial power of attorney, medical power of attorney, supporting trusts documents, and HIPPA letters. If I charged for each document, it would $79 each for the will, both powers of attorney, and the HIPPA letters. The trust and it documents would cost $500.

My flat fee is $700.

harley2003rkc
09-11-2011, 12:29 AM
My husband has been bugging me to post on my fees here with the NFA trust discussion. I charge a flat fee for a trust package. My trust package includes the will, trust, financial power of attorney, medical power of attorney, supporting trusts documents, and HIPPA letters. If I charged for each document, it would $79 each for the will, both powers of attorney, and the HIPPA letters. The trust and it documents would cost $500.

My flat fee is $700.


Sounds reasonable for someone who needs all that. But I'd like to think a lot of us are young enough to not yet be concerned with most of those items. Myself I'm only in the market at this time for the Trust. Are you doing the Trusts by themselves?

The trust is mostly a convenience to me since CLEO signoff is not a problem. But the time and money invovled in fingerprinting is already a nuisance. They have enough copies of my prints and I'm quite sure they know who I am.

mpearce
09-11-2011, 01:52 PM
Sounds reasonable for someone who needs all that. But I'd like to think a lot of us are young enough to not yet be concerned with most of those items. Myself I'm only in the market at this time for the Trust. Are you doing the Trusts by themselves?

The trust is mostly a convenience to me since CLEO signoff is not a problem. But the time and money invovled in fingerprinting is already a nuisance. They have enough copies of my prints and I'm quite sure they know who I am.

CLEO signoff can cause issues for other adults living in the same household as you. A trust resolves those issues for you.

You say you are young and don't see a need for the entire trust package. What happens when you are in an accident? The trust package foresees the envitable and protects you and your family in the event the envitable does happen without creating legal nightmares or criminal charges. I offer free thirty minute in-person consultations and would be happy to discuss the ramifications of the issues with anyone interested.

jburt
09-11-2011, 11:36 PM
My husband has been bugging me to post on my fees here with the NFA trust discussion. I charge a flat fee for a trust package. My trust package includes the will, trust, financial power of attorney, medical power of attorney, supporting trusts documents, and HIPPA letters. If I charged for each document, it would $79 each for the will, both powers of attorney, and the HIPPA letters. The trust and it documents would cost $500.

My flat fee is $700.


Really? $700? I don't see a whole lot of people rushing out to do that.

SWMP15
09-12-2011, 12:09 AM
Really? $700? I don't see a whole lot of people rushing out to do that.

and a supressor is how much !!!?? :crazy:

M&P15
09-12-2011, 06:30 AM
CLEO signoff can cause issues for other adults living in the same household as you. A trust resolves those issues for you.

You say you are young and don't see a need for the entire trust package. What happens when you are in an accident? The trust package foresees the envitable and protects you and your family in the event the envitable does happen without creating legal nightmares or criminal charges. I offer free thirty minute in-person consultations and would be happy to discuss the ramifications of the issues with anyone interested.

Envitable? We are all going to have accidents or criminal charges?

miked
09-12-2011, 08:05 AM
I'm very much a DIY'er but when it comes to legal issues, I'd rather pay then suffer. When I have the funds saved up I'll be contacting Shyster or some other a lawyer to get a trust drawn up. It's only a one time deal, you don't need a new trust for every item you buy.

Tom M
09-12-2011, 10:36 AM
Envitable? We are all going to have accidents or criminal charges?

I believe she's speaking of the inevitability of sickness or death. Hence, the will, poa, mpoa, etc.

M&P15
09-12-2011, 03:53 PM
I believe she's speaking of the inevitability of sickness or death. Hence, the will, poa, mpoa, etc.

Ahh. Thank you.

Sigster
09-13-2011, 04:20 AM
I agree in part, but paying a lawyer $400 for a duplicated form is way out of line and excessive. Sure there is research on the attorneys part to get it right per MI law, but after that, doing a simple NFA trust is just a matter of plugging in different names for different people. If a person wants more than what is on the standard form, then pay for the attorneys time.

I'm not giving a lawyer a free pass to rob me just because he is gun friendly.


This....

jmanz6
09-13-2011, 07:17 AM
Here (http://www.northwestfirearms.com/nfa-weapons/26116-how-set-up-trust-nfa.html) is a link I found while surfing last night at about midnight. It seems to explain it pretty well. Use at your own risk. Myself, I will probably have a lawyer do the trust for me, but someone with more of a DIY attitude could do it as well. Also, I looked on Legalzoom.com (http://www.legalzoom.com/living-trusts/living-trusts-overview.html) last night and they also have a template for setting up a trust. Cost from them is about $275, and you get legal assistance if you need it as well.

rjrivero
09-13-2011, 08:52 AM
I agree in part, but paying a lawyer $400 for a duplicated form is way out of line and excessive. Sure there is research on the attorneys part to get it right per MI law, but after that, doing a simple NFA trust is just a matter of plugging in different names for different people. If a person wants more than what is on the standard form, then pay for the attorneys time.

I'm not giving a lawyer a free pass to rob me just because he is gun friendly.
$400 is too expensive? Do a trust wrong and you could end up with a bigger headache than $400.....

I do recall one case where the ATF approved stamps on a do it yourself trust. They reviewed the trust and found that it did not meet a particular specification. Then revoked the stamps and came to confiscate the Title 3 firearms in that trust.

I had it bookmarked, but I can't find it on my computer any longer.

It was an ugly ordeal that ended up costing many thousands of dollars to fix.

The question we should be asking is if we use an attorney to do the trust, will they stand by their work when and if it comes under scrutiny?

A standard trust, for division of property and profits etc. can and will cost in excess of $2000 when done as part of your estate planning. The trust when done correctly has provisions for all kinds of situations that you probably haven't really thought about. $400 is a CUT RATE deal for an NFA specific trust. IMVHO.

The cost is relative, but the group rate here on the forum is anything but a rip off, IMVHO.

misuppression
09-14-2011, 03:53 PM
Just for those who are die hard DIY'ers or those who love droning over endless law like I do, here is a link to the NFA handbook according to the Director of the NFA branch "it should also be useful to attorneys seeking basic information about the NFA and how the law has been interpreted by ATF." Maybe something DIY'ers doing trusts should read.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf

I personally just like to know the ins and outs of the laws that govern me and I have a hunting weekend coming up so I will be reading the NFA in my blind.

Also, no offense to the lawyers who post 'scary stories' but just to play devil's advocate I feel I need to post this:

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=55400&page=1

Also, for what it's worth (not legal advice) I did do a trust through Nolo and had it reviewed by a lawyer. While not an NFA lawyer she did say that there was no doubt that when signed, notarized and funded it was a valid trust in the State of Michigan. Although she made no implications to it's applicability under the NFA.

mpearce
09-14-2011, 04:22 PM
I believe she's speaking of the inevitability of sickness or death. Hence, the will, poa, mpoa, etc.

Not only those, but anything else that might make the settlor/grantor unable to manage the trust as the initial trustee.

mpearce
09-14-2011, 04:33 PM
$400 is too expensive? Do a trust wrong and you could end up with a bigger headache than $400.....
I agree. Save the money now, have a mistake in your trust, and pay more later digging out of the mess caused by a simple mistake.


I do recall one case where the ATF approved stamps on a do it yourself trust. They reviewed the trust and found that it did not meet a particular specification. Then revoked the stamps and came to confiscate the Title 3 firearms in that trust.

I had it bookmarked, but I can't find it on my computer any longer.

It was an ugly ordeal that ended up costing many thousands of dollars to fix. Great point on why investing in a professional and their services can be beneficial.

The question we should be asking is if we use an attorney to do the trust, will they stand by their work when and if it comes under scrutiny? Will an attorney stand by the trust if it comes under scrutiny? There are provisions (ethics) that govern an attorney's work. It will come down to whether the attorney met their ethical and professional obligations.

A standard trust, for division of property and profits etc. can and will cost in excess of $2000 when done as part of your estate planning. The trust when done correctly has provisions for all kinds of situations that you probably haven't really thought about. $400 is a CUT RATE deal for an NFA specific trust. IMVHO.

The cost is relative, but the group rate here on the forum is anything but a rip off, IMVHO.

Listen, I don't care whether members or readers of this thread hire me or some other estate planning attorney. But I would offer that an individual would be better off, by investing in at least meeting with an estate planning attorney, who is knowledgeable about NFA trusts and BATFE regulations. This way an individual can make an informed decisions about what the options are and what his/her risks are for each option.

Rushing out to buy a silencers just cause it is legal and doing so the fastest way can only lead to bigger headaches down the road. Everyone has to decide what is best for himself or herself. I can't give specific advice over a forum nor would I. But doing something the right way (even though it involves a cost or some hard work) is far better in the long run than trying to take the fastest and simplest way.

But each firearm owner must decide what is in his/her best interests.

mpearce
09-14-2011, 04:35 PM
Just for those who are die hard DIY'ers or those who love droning over endless law like I do, here is a link to the NFA handbook according to the Director of the NFA branch "it should also be useful to attorneys seeking basic information about the NFA and how the law has been interpreted by ATF." Maybe something DIY'ers doing trusts should read.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf

I personally just like to know the ins and outs of the laws that govern me and I have a hunting weekend coming up so I will be reading the NFA in my blind.

Also, no offense to the lawyers who post 'scary stories' but just to play devil's advocate I feel I need to post this:

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=55400&page=1

Also, for what it's worth (not legal advice) I did do a trust through Nolo and had it reviewed by a lawyer. While not an NFA lawyer she did say that there was no doubt that when signed, notarized and funded it was a valid trust in the State of Michigan. Although she made no implications to it's applicability under the NFA.

FYI for the DIYers, the Maryland Trust template talked about in link 2 will not work in Michigan.

mpearce
09-14-2011, 04:40 PM
Just to clarify, when I post on the forums, I am submitting my personal opinion. If an individual wants to work with my law firm, then the individual should contact my law firm and not attempt to transact business with me on here.

This is to protect something important to the client (i.e. attorney-client privilege).

Second, I am offering my knowledge gained from my employment, sometimes I limit the extent of the knowledge I am sharing online, as a means of pursuing a cause dear to my heart - the preservation of constitutional rights, including the Second Amendment as it is vital to the continued preservation of the remaining nine.

chosos
09-15-2011, 11:07 PM
Just to clarify, when I post on the forums, I am submitting my personal opinion. If an individual wants to work with my law firm, then the individual should contact my law firm and not attempt to transact business with me on here.

This is to protect something important to the client (i.e. attorney-client privilege).

Second, I am offering my knowledge gained from my employment, sometimes I limit the extent of the knowledge I am sharing online, as a means of pursuing a cause dear to my heart - the preservation of constitutional rights, including the Second Amendment as it is vital to the continued preservation of the remaining nine.
It saddens me that you even need to post that followup to shoot the **** with us. What has the world come to? :(

mahoak
09-16-2011, 04:25 PM
Here is a link (hooperordnance.com/page3.aspx) to a sample NFA trust that supposedly has been successfully accepted by BATFE from people in Georgia and Alabama. I have no idea if it passes muster in Michigan.

peppy62979
09-16-2011, 05:14 PM
Here is a link (hooperordnance.com/page3.aspx) to a sample NFA trust that supposedly has been successfully accepted by BATFE from people in Georgia and Alabama. I have no idea if it passes muster in Michigan.

http://hooperordnance.com/page3.aspx

mpearce
09-21-2011, 10:21 AM
It saddens me that you even need to post that followup to shoot the **** with us. What has the world come to? :(

It is sad that this is reality for me and I need to clarify it on a forum. The worst part is that I am not on this forum every day and a pm to me could not be seen for a few days and precious time is lost.

I am willing to assist any firearm owner with a particular issue, whether it is in family law, criminal law, civil law, or dealing with the local gun boards. However, I limit those discussions within the confines of my law firm and not on public forums.

mpearce
09-21-2011, 10:25 AM
I recently attended the State Bar of Michigan Conference and was informally polling some fellow estate planning attorneys on whether or not they knew about NFA Trusts. Everyone I talked to did not know and asked "Isn't a revocable trust sufficient?"

That prompted me to do some more research on the subject. There are clear dangers to drafting your own that can result in criminal charges and confiscation of your firearms. Therefore, I am cautioning everyone to hold off on drafting your own NFA trust until after you attended a seminar that I am putting together. I will announce the day and time once I have secured the location to present this information.

mikee1973
09-21-2011, 10:32 AM
Therefore, I am cautioning everyone to hold off on drafting your own NFA trust until after you attended a seminar that I am putting together. I will announce the day and time once I have secured the location to present this information.
:thup: subscribed

CnA
09-22-2011, 09:40 AM
I recently attended the State Bar of Michigan Conference and was informally polling some fellow estate planning attorneys on whether or not they knew about NFA Trusts. Everyone I talked to did not know and asked "Isn't a revocable trust sufficient?"

That prompted me to do some more research on the subject. There are clear dangers to drafting your own that can result in criminal charges and confiscation of your firearms. Therefore, I am cautioning everyone to hold off on drafting your own NFA trust until after you attended a seminar that I am putting together. I will announce the day and time once I have secured the location to present this information.

Thanks for your efforts in this!!

misuppression
09-22-2011, 10:36 AM
FYI for the DIYers, the Maryland Trust template talked about in link 2 will not work in Michigan.
No, I didn't mean to say it would. Just that the thread talks about people doing the trust themselves in general and that the ATF can actually be helpful and not always out to get you. The most interesting and relevant part was when he called the NFA branch and they were very helpful.

Generally the stories you find are horror stories of people getting screwed over by the government, and yes, if you break the law they will come after you. But the laws of this country are not designed as traps to screw everyone over, for the most part if you ask questions and are trying to be legal it is not their intent to trick or trap you.

stainless1911
09-22-2011, 11:06 AM
I disagree.

mpearce
09-22-2011, 02:53 PM
No, I didn't mean to say it would. Just that the thread talks about people doing the trust themselves in general and that the ATF can actually be helpful and not always out to get you. The most interesting and relevant part was when he called the NFA branch and they were very helpful.

Generally the stories you find are horror stories of people getting screwed over by the government, and yes, if you break the law they will come after you. But the laws of this country are not designed as traps to screw everyone over, for the most part if you ask questions and are trying to be legal it is not their intent to trick or trap you.

Actually after reviewing that trust and doing some research on the issue, that trust can cause some unintentional violations of the NFA. It is a basic revocable trust, which has some issues when used as a NFA Gun Trust.

smokinbutts
09-23-2011, 12:17 AM
it seems like a lot of people say there has to be "specific" language in a "nfa trust" but nobody is ever willing to come out and say what that might be. why can't someone be more helpful and say what the parts are that might trip you up. besides, i dont think there is truly a "nfa trust" just revocable living trusts that people use for NFA items.

stainless1911
09-23-2011, 12:20 AM
Because that would be considered legal advice???

smokinbutts
09-23-2011, 04:34 AM
or there is no required wording as a trust is a trust...

CnA
09-23-2011, 08:40 AM
it seems like a lot of people say there has to be "specific" language in a "nfa trust" but nobody is ever willing to come out and say what that might be. why can't someone be more helpful and say what the parts are that might trip you up. besides, i dont think there is truly a "nfa trust" just revocable living trusts that people use for NFA items.
The legal pro's that know how to word the Revocable Living Trust to have NFA items, comply with MI law, and not get in trouble with the ATF want to be paid for this info and their expertise.

I have no problem with that. I don't work for free either. It's a free country and everyone is entitled to make a good living. I'm just not willing to pay what I personally consider to be an excessive and outrageous fee.

mpearce
09-24-2011, 12:11 AM
it seems like a lot of people say there has to be "specific" language in a "nfa trust" but nobody is ever willing to come out and say what that might be. why can't someone be more helpful and say what the parts are that might trip you up. besides, i dont think there is truly a "nfa trust" just revocable living trusts that people use for NFA items.

The problem is that the wording needs to be tailored to the client. There is not standard wording that is a "one size fits all."

There are issues with the typical revocable living trusts.

mpearce
09-24-2011, 12:11 AM
Because that would be considered legal advice???

Quite possibly and it depends on the listener/reader not on the deliverer.