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Knimrod
10-21-2006, 02:06 PM
Michigan Gun Owners is happy to provide a place where sellers and buyers can meet.

This service is provided free of charge. Consequently, Michigan Gun Owners does not endorse, sponsor, sanction, or guarantee any of the products, services, or ads that appear in the MGO Marketplace. All sales are private matters between the buyer and the seller. Buyers and sellers should do their own due diligence when buying or selling any item. This should include obtaining the proper licensing (if applicable) and verifying the legalities involved with the sale, purchase, and/or possession of any firearm, weapon or accessory.

MGO does not retain archives for information in the classified forums for any period exceeding 60 days.

Classified Ads
The classified "For Sale" forums in the marketplace are for private sales of private merchandise only. No ads for commercial merchandise or services are permitted in these forums.

Commercial Ads
Commercial Dealers that are Contributing Members may place ads for specific goods or services in the "Commercial Dealers" forum provided the ads offer such goods or services at a special rate or discount to all MGO members. Regular business advertising is not permitted in the Marketplace but can be achieved through our banner advertising program (http://www.migunowners.org/index.php?page=advertise) at very reasonable rates.

What defines a commercial dealer? Meeting any one of the following criteria will serve to define what constitutes a commercial dealer.

A "Commercial Dealer"...

...conducts a trade or business that is primarily operated in a typical commercial manner.
...primarily operates on a profit basis rather than a cost-recovery basis.
...primarily operates in competition with taxable entities carrying on in the same trade or business.
...offers goods and/or services being sold under an assumed name, or in the name of a corporation, a subchapter S corporation, a limited liability company, a partnership, or a limited liability partnership.
...collects sales tax.
...requires a form 4473 to be filled out when selling a firearm.


Interpretation of this criteria is at the sole discretion of the forum staff.


black

Rules and Guidelines

Here are some basic rules to follow:

If you want to sell here, please participate here.
Make sure your user profile is up to date with your contact information and location.
Do not post for sale or solicit the sale of any drugs.
Do not post for sale or solicit the sale of anything pornographic.
Do not post for sale or solicit the sale of anything that may be illegal.
If you are listing an item for sale, include the item's location in your ad.
If you are here solely to promote or sell your non-firearm related commercial goods, please do not advertise them here.
Once your item has sold or no longer for sale, please reply to your thread to update the status as "SOLD" or otherwise.
Please do not "bump" your classified advertisement more than once in a 24 hour period. You may reply to your ad with new information or pricing anytime. However, replying to your ad within 24 hours of your last reply for the sole purpose of moving it to the top of the listing is prohibited.
You must be in control of or have possession of the item you are advertising. You may not post a classified ad for a third party.


Here are some basic guidelines to follow:

Know who you are dealing with. It may be helpful to examine the post history of a user to see if they have contributed in a meaningful way to the other forums.

Communicate clearly. If you are the buyer, make sure that you know exactly what you are buying. If you are the seller, make sure you communicate exactly what you are selling. Most problems come up when users misunderstand something about the transaction.

The seller should always include an asking price in the ad. You can always ask for a higher amount and then take the best offer.

"Or Best offer" (OBO) is generally taken to mean best offer under the asking price. If an ad states a price along with "or best offer" ("OBO"), the price is considered to be the asking price that assures a sale and any offers lower than the asking price will be considered. Soliciting best offers over an asking price would effectively be an auction and not a classified ad. This is a classified advertising forum.

When the term "firm" accompanies a price, this means that the price is fixed and no lower offers will be considered at this time.

Use some common sense. People who feel comfortable sending money to someone they've never met for something they've never seen are bound to eventually receive a nasty surprise. That doesn't mean that you can't trade online. Just use some common sense precautions, like contacting the other party by phone and exchanging all the relevant contact information before proceeding with a transaction.

Be patient. There are few cons out there but the ones that exist online survive by moving the transaction along quickly. It is way better to miss out on a hot item at a good price than it is to lose money on a product that never arrives.

If something goes wrong, don't panic. Don't go public with a bunch of wild assertions. Use the contact information you got before the sale took place and put it to good use. Be friendly as you negotiate a resolution to the problem. If you put the other person on the defensive, your chance of working with that person drops to nearly zero.



Proceed with Caution

Be suspicious of anyone who is vague, uses delay tactics, seems inconsistent, or who is trying to motivate you to close on a deal faster than a reasonable person would expect. Because of the nature of the items typically listed here, be careful of any condition or request that may be considered illegal.


General Information

A sale will usually be made to the first person who says "I'll take it". However, the manner in which a transaction proceeds is really up to the seller. Keep that in mind. Sometimes, people get upset because a seller makes a deal with someone who doesn't appear to have provided the first response to the listing. The seller can sell to whoever he wants. He has to protect himself just like the buyer does, so it behooves him to sell the item to the person he trusts the most.

Likewise, some sellers get upset when a buyer backs out. The buyer might get cold feet because he decides the seller isn't trustworthy. Or it may be because he realizes that he can't spare the cash after all. It isn't unethical for the buyer to change his mind, even though it can be frustrating at times.

Keeping the above in mind, here is an example on how a transaction can logically take place:


The seller lists the item, providing a price or asking for "best offer".

Several buyers respond.

The seller communicates to each of them exactly what they are buying and answers any questions they may have.

One or several buyers commits to the purchase.

The seller chooses a buyer and posts in the thread to say "I am selling the item to ...". Since the buyer may be sending money during the next step, he should insist that the seller mention him by name in the post. That way the seller can't make arrangements to multiple buyers.

At this point, the buyer and seller can make arrangements for payment and shipping or a face to face transaction...

If the transaction is not going to occur face to face, the buyer sends payment by the seller's chosen means while the seller waits patiently for the payment. If the seller said he would accept a check (probably not a very good idea) then he should expect to wait at least a week. When the the seller receives payment in full (check must clear), he then ships the item and posts to the thread to say "item shipped". It would also be a good idea to PM the tracking information to the buyer.

It would be nice if every transaction went smoothly, but in real life people make mistakes. Sometimes people are even out to cheat other people. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. So you need to be on your guard.

Unfortunately, there isn't always much you can do when a transaction goes bad. So that means you need to be really careful about who you are dealing with. Never be afraid to back out of a deal if you start to feel like it isn't going to work out.

When something does go horribly wrong and you seem to be getting the short end of the stick, think constructively about what can be done to solve the problem. Focus on what you can do. Too many people get frustrated and angry way too quickly, destroying the possibility of reaching common ground.

Remember that the clearer you are in your communication with the other party the less likely it is that you will have a problem. And if you do have a problem, all that clear communication will come in handy.

Good luck!

Ken P
10-21-2006, 07:12 PM
very nice..that's why Lance is webmaster of the decade

Knimrod
05-19-2008, 12:50 AM
Guidelines updated... Please read again.

moosefisher
12-15-2008, 03:31 PM
If you are selling a gun "for a friend", does this make you a gun dealer? It sounds like this could lead to some trouble. Somebody pointed this out to me and I thought I would ask.
Good Shooting, Dave

Knimrod
12-15-2008, 09:27 PM
I guess you need to ask yourself whether it's you who is selling, or your friend. If you are simply posting for a friend and the transaction occurs between the buyer and the seller (your friend), I don't see any problem.. But it's a good question...

customizedcreationz
12-22-2008, 10:32 AM
Out of curiosity, since my sales are now limited to the FFL Dealer page. I noticed ( correct me if I am wrong ) that non members couldnt view that page. Which drastically cuts down on the possible sales potential for the Dealer page.

Has it been brought up before to make that a public forum as well. I am sure the other dealers would love to be viewed by everyone, as the possibly tansfers alone would be nice for the non member to be able to see who does what and were.

Just a thought.

Thanks
Todd

Knimrod
12-22-2008, 11:00 AM
Out of curiosity, since my sales are now limited to the FFL Dealer page. I noticed ( correct me if I am wrong ) that non members couldnt view that page. Which drastically cuts down on the possible sales potential for the Dealer page.

Has it been brought up before to make that a public forum as well. I am sure the other dealers would love to be viewed by everyone, as the possibly tansfers alone would be nice for the non member to be able to see who does what and were.

Just a thought.

Thanks
Todd

Good question..

The FFL section is limited to viewing by only registered members. That is, "Associate" members and "Contributing" members can view ads in the FFL section. Visitors who are not registered on MGO's forums will not be able to see that section. While the normal classified forums are for non-commercial, private dealings, the FFL section was instituted to give dealers a place to offer MGO members special deals and discounts on firearms and firearm accessories. It really was never intended for commercial advertising but it is somewhat tolerated. For commercial advertising, FFL dealers can purchase banner ads (http://www.migunowners.org/index.php?page=advertise) at ridiculously low rates (discounted even more for dealers who are also contributing members). Banner ads are viewable by anyone visiting our web site.

dougwg
12-22-2008, 11:05 AM
So are you saying that if you are an FFL and don't have any specials or deals but rather just selling a personal gun, then that should be listed in the regular firearms for sale section?

This makes sense to me.

Knimrod
12-22-2008, 11:07 AM
So are you saying that if you are an FFL and don't have any specials or deals but rather just selling a personal gun, then that should be listed in the regular firearms for sale section?

This makes sense to me.

That would be correct.. If it's a private sale, it should go in the regular and appropriate classified forum.

PhotoTom
12-22-2008, 11:43 AM
That would be correct.. If it's a private sale, it should go in the regular and appropriate classified forum.

And...it should be clearly noted as such to avoid any potential confusion ;)

Knimrod
03-03-2009, 11:43 PM
Guidelines updated March 3, 2009...

"Rule" #9 added.

Please read again.

Knimrod
03-08-2009, 03:35 PM
Guidelines updated March 7, 2009...

"Rule" #8 changed.

Effective immediately, users are no longer allowed to edit their classified ads after they've been posted. Please take extra care in composing your ad before hitting the "Submit" button. When an item sells or is no longer available, the ad author should reply to the ad with an updated status indicating the item has been sold or otherwise. Posts in the Commercial Dealers forum, Freecycle Forum and Wanted to Buy forum remain editable by the post's author.

This action was necessary because of the rapid expansion of the classified section and to maintain archival integrity for the short time the ad is viewable. I apologize for any inconvenience and appreciate your cooperation.

Please read the guidelines again.

Knimrod
03-13-2009, 07:42 PM
Guidelines updated March 13, 2009...

"Rule" #10 added.
10. You must be in control of or have possession of the item you are advertising. You may not post a classified ad for a third party.

"Guideline" #9 modified.
9. Please do not "step" on other members' posts! If you feel you must comment in such a way that might negatively impact the sale of someone’s merchandise, please consider sending a PM instead of posting in the open forum. Sellers are encouraged to "close" (lock) their classified ads to prevent the dreaded "thread stomping".

Please read the Buying/Selling Guidelines again. Your cooperation is greatly appreciated.

RevDerb
03-13-2009, 09:23 PM
Excellent changes!! Thank you.

Done Deal
03-20-2009, 03:25 PM
Watch for even more changes coming to a website near you....

Knimrod
04-26-2009, 02:17 AM
At the direction of the EC, the ability to edit posts in the classified section, by the post's author, has been reinstated effective immediately.

I have not edited the buying/selling guidelines as the EC did not specifically direct any changes in policy, just "allow thread edit in the for sale threads". I do not know if the long standing rule of not permitting editing has been overruled or not. I will leave it up to the EC to clarify any changes to the rules/guidelines.

Imshootin
04-26-2009, 02:31 AM
Excellent. I had Kay edit one of mine this evening as Sold. I'm sure many others will be happy also.

Done Deal
04-26-2009, 10:27 PM
Watch for even more changes coming to a website near you....


Wow.....deja vu.....no way.

Nope, not at all what I had envisioned for changes.....nope.

sullyxlh
04-26-2009, 10:54 PM
At the direction of the EC, the ability to edit posts in the classified section, by the post's author, has been reinstated effective immediately.

Thanks!

countryboy3248
04-27-2009, 01:15 AM
wow...that didnt take long.

Must of been someone's ear got tired of all the complaining?

UTPD#5
04-27-2009, 06:19 AM
wow...that didnt take long.

Must of been someone's ear got tired of all the complaining?

The EC heard the membership and a general consensus was to allow the editting until a different solution can be found.

Garry

Done Deal
04-27-2009, 07:44 AM
The EC heard the membership and a general consensus was to allow the editting until a different solution can be found.

Garry


So, who are you turning to for assistance in creating that solution?

Would that be site Admin or does the EC have a different plan in mind?

kdogg
04-27-2009, 03:41 PM
What exactly was the issue? Why did they not allow editing to begin with? I never really understood. Why the sales section over other sections?

fbuckner
04-27-2009, 05:32 PM
Good question.

Done Deal
04-28-2009, 09:38 AM
Good question.


So, in other words, the EC has failed to effectively communicate the organizational goals to site Admin and/or failed to effectively monitor steps that were taken in the interests of the organization?

It would appear that the EC needs to better understand and define certain roles.

UTPD#5
04-28-2009, 10:15 AM
I suspect that fbuckners response was to the post above his.

In answer to your question posted above, DD, the EC will be talking to ADMIN to see what the underlying issue was and how to better perfect a long term solution. The EC was advised of a proposed system (by an EC member that was relaying a message) that was being worked on by Lance. I suspect that the EC will wait to hear how his system may work and if in his best opinion if it would solve the underlying issue at hand.

The short term fix was to let the membership be able to edit posts as before...that is what they (the members) wanted.

Done Deal
04-28-2009, 01:49 PM
I suspect that fbuckners response was to the post above his.

In answer to your question posted above, DD, the EC will be talking to ADMIN to see what the underlying issue was and how to better perfect a long term solution. The EC was advised of a proposed system (by an EC member that was relaying a message) that was being worked on by Lance. I suspect that the EC will wait to hear how his system may work and if in his best opinion if it would solve the underlying issue at hand.

The short term fix was to let the membership be able to edit posts as before...that is what they (the members) wanted.

Exactly, fbuckners post was to the post above his which indicates that as an EC member, he should have known what the issues were. How in the world can the EC effectively function without a thorough understanding of the nature of the problem? Apparently, in this organization, that is no longer a prerequisite to decision making.

And, as far as the EC finally getting around to communicating with site Admin before making decisions.....wonderful. It took quite awhile for the EC to recognize the need to do so but, it seems that the lightbulb might finally start to glow...

But, I think that it is a mistake to let the members of a forum dictate to Admin how the site is run. In my opinion, the EC is not acting in the best interests of the MGO, they are just trying to quiet the concerns over the classifieds. The site Admin can and does run the site according to the mission statement of the organization. Please tell us where that mentions the classifieds that needed your micro managing again. Standing by....this should be good....

raider187
04-28-2009, 04:59 PM
But, I think that it is a mistake to let the members of a forum dictate to Admin how the site is run. In my opinion, the EC is not acting in the best interests of the MGO, they are just trying to quiet the concerns over the classifieds.


I don't agree with you at all, I hope your not too bitter about what's happened. No one is trying to tell anyone how to run the site. Many of us simply suggested that a bad decision was made and would like it reversed.
I support the decision that was made, it was a good call for MGO and the site. The members that you speak of are all active and make up a good chunk of contributors. There were allot if unhappy members that did not express there thoughts publicly.

It's over, time to move on and get past this.

Done Deal
05-02-2009, 09:50 AM
I don't agree with you at all, I hope your not too bitter about what's happened. No one is trying to tell anyone how to run the site. Many of us simply suggested that a bad decision was made and would like it reversed.
I support the decision that was made, it was a good call for MGO and the site. The members that you speak of are all active and make up a good chunk of contributors. There were allot if unhappy members that did not express there thoughts publicly.

It's over, time to move on and get past this.

For starters, just because I got the shaft doesn't mean that I am bitter (really, the improprieties couldn't have come to light at a better time, right before the bylaws changes and election of officers).

Even if I was bitter, the bottom line is.....there need to be established procedures for determining policy and within those procedures, for implementing change. From what I have read, this last change was made just to keep vocal members pacified while still not having a solution. In my book, that is not effective problem solving but, feel free to disagree until you are blue in the face and guess what----I won't be bitter about that either.

mishooter
05-02-2009, 11:08 AM
What exactly was the issue? Why did they not allow editing to begin with? I never really understood. Why the sales section over other sections?Without going to look it up and quote it: As I recall the issue was sellers going back and editing the OP (Original Post) and changing/deleting details. If I recall correctly: That is forbidden. For example: There was one frequent seller of over-priced (IMO) ammo that, after he'd sold it all (spare me the capitalist philosophy, please), went back and deleted the entire OP after editing was reinstated.

IMO the solution reached by the site admins was worse than the problem, but, OTOH, the EC countermanding it w/o first discussing it with the people they've charged with the care & feeding of the site was just as bad--if not worse.

Speaking as a professional network admin.: There's hardly anything management can do worse than blind-side their admins. That will result in a "Why the hell am I doing this, anyway?" attitude.

There seems to be a lot of bitterness and recriminations flying back-and-forth between site admins and the EC over some recent issues. Such behaviour is unseemly and makes the organization look bad. I strongly recommend that both the admins, past and present, and the EC continue such discussions off the site, get together, and work it out.

Done Deal
05-02-2009, 11:18 AM
IMO the solution reached by the site admins was worse than the problem, but, OTOH, the EC countermanding it w/o first discussing it with the people they've charged with the care & feeding of the site was just as bad--if not worse.

Speaking as a professional network admin.: There's hardly anything management can do worse than blind-side their admins. That will result in a "Why the hell am I doing this, anyway?" attitude.

There seems to be a lot of bitterness and recriminations flying back-and-forth between site admins and the EC over some recent issues. Such behaviour is unseemly and makes the organization look bad. I strongly recommend that both the admins, past and present, and the EC continue such discussions off the site, get together, and work it out.


Very well said. The problem isn't with the organization per se, it lies with the people that are presently in positions of authority within the organization taking action that might be detrimental to the organization without fear of recrimination. As you know...the EC is not on the payroll and there are no stock options or golden parachutes so....well....I am sure that you understand.

fbuckner
05-02-2009, 09:32 PM
Why?

Done Deal
05-02-2009, 09:55 PM
Why?


Why what?

Batman
06-06-2009, 03:59 PM
I understand the new rules for buying and selling:

Effectively immediately, the posting permissions for the Marketplace forums (classified sales) have been set to prohibit responses to the original post/thread. Updates can still be made by the thread originator.

This is to elliminate the various folks craping on the sale thread. Fine, good idea.

However, when one follows the direction set by the seller and emails or PM's the seller and the seller won't respond as to whether or not the item is SPF or whatever then I think that something ought to happen. What I see happening is folks slamming the nonresponsive seller in the feedback thread.

Just my thoughs.

Knimrod
06-06-2009, 10:20 PM
Marketplace Buying/Selling Guidelines Updated..
- Commercial Ads and Dealers defined

Please read the guidelines (http://www.migunowners.org/forum/announcement.php?f=216) again.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Joeywhat
06-06-2009, 10:29 PM
I understand the new rules for buying and selling:

Effectively immediately, the posting permissions for the Marketplace forums (classified sales) have been set to prohibit responses to the original post/thread. Updates can still be made by the thread originator.

This is to elliminate the various folks craping on the sale thread. Fine, good idea.

However, when one follows the direction set by the seller and emails or PM's the seller and the seller won't respond as to whether or not the item is SPF or whatever then I think that something ought to happen. What I see happening is folks slamming the nonresponsive seller in the feedback thread.

Just my thoughs.

It would seem to me that things are working themselves out in that instance. A seller is unresponsive to potential buyers, and negative feedback is left. Since there is no cut and dry rating system for feedback, it's up to the people reading the feedback thread to decide if that's a big deal for them.

Personally I couldn't care about neg feedback about some guy that wouldn't answer PM's. Now if he left someone out to dry or was a no show at a deal or something it's different...

Edwin
06-11-2009, 04:46 PM
this is all very useful information, thanks for having all this here

moosefisher
06-15-2009, 02:55 PM
Marketplace (Classified Sales) Forums Posting Permissions

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Effectively immediately, the posting permissions for the Marketplace forums (classified sales) have been set to prohibit responses to the original post/thread. Updates can still be made by the thread originator.

Thread originators need to make sure they post their preferred contact method (i.e., PM, email, or phone).

Anyone having questions or comments about items posted should direct them to the original poster via the specified preferred contact method.

- Admin )

This is a stupid rule. If you ask a question to the seller and the other members can use the info in the answer , it should be put into the thread. For example, a gentleman has a Marlin 336A for sale. I shoot cast bullets. My question to him is, Does the barrel read Micro-Groove? If it does, then cast bullets don't shoot well out of it. The bullets will shoot fine, but leading in the barrel will occur. This rule should be changed.
Thanks, MOOSE

Joeywhat
06-15-2009, 03:38 PM
This is a stupid rule. If you ask a question to the seller and the other members can use the info in the answer , it should be put into the thread. For example, a gentleman has a Marlin 336A for sale. I shoot cast bullets. My question to him is, Does the barrel read Micro-Groove? If it does, then cast bullets don't shoot well out of it. The bullets will shoot fine, but leading in the barrel will occur. This rule should be changed.
Thanks, MOOSE

Send the question via PM. If the seller thinks it's important enough for everyone to know they will post it in their ad.

moosefisher
06-15-2009, 08:48 PM
Send the question via PM. If the seller thinks it's important enough for everyone to know they will post it in their ad.
If the rules were followed and enforced, we would not need this rule.
Good Shooting, MOOSE

Ruger
11-10-2009, 09:35 AM
I can't find anything that address's dual posting of the same item for sale.

I have found an ad in the market place that is a duplicate for the same gun and it appears to have been done so to make it look like a new ad.

Its clearly the same firearm and it also appears that the member did so to reduce the appearance of his bump count!

I'm referencing to Dodgeboys add for the Mossberg 500 slug gun.

If this is allowed to be done then anyone with a ad can simply just ignore the first ad and act as if he just put it up for sale today! Those that have watched his ad will notice but someone that has just come on board will think it's new to the market place when in fact its not.

Joeywhat
11-10-2009, 09:37 AM
Use the report button...

dougwg
11-10-2009, 10:11 AM
I can't find anything that address's dual posting of the same item for sale.

I have found an ad in the market place that is a duplicate for the same gun and it appears to have been done so to make it look like a new ad.

Its clearly the same firearm and it also appears that the member did so to reduce the appearance of his bump count!

I'm referencing to Dodgeboys add for the Mossberg 500 slug gun.

If this is allowed to be done then anyone with a ad can simply just ignore the first ad and act as if he just put it up for sale today! Those that have watched his ad will notice but someone that has just come on board will think it's new to the market place when in fact its not.

Pretty slick move.

Not that I agree or disagree with it though...

Ruger
11-10-2009, 10:18 AM
Use the report button...

Why report it? If it's not been addressed then it just might be OK to do! If so then we all can do the same thing and let the other ad die in archive.

Liked Doug said, I don't agree or disagree with it as long as it's kosher.

doctorj77
11-10-2009, 10:51 AM
Oops, I thought I was posting in the feedback section. Plz ignore!

PhotoTom
11-10-2009, 11:48 AM
Duplicate posts/ads happen "all the time". When a member of the forum staff spots it, or when it gets reported, we merge the posts/ads into one.

We don't put every common sense "rule" in writing around here. If something is done in an obvious attempt to circumvent an existing rule, or if it defies common sense/courtesy, it is dealt with accordingly.

Like Joey said...use the report button when you see this...

- Admin