Savage Axis Stock

[jackstan]

Does anyone have any experience with bedding compounds that will stick to the plastic Axis stock ? I've used Accraglass and Accragel and it doesn't work very well at all . I ordered some grey Marine-Tex and some Devcon from Brownells hoping for better results .

I've got the wrist section of the stock ground out enough to hold bedding compound and small steel rods . Surface is rough and a bit undercut now so I don't think bedding will pop out when I apply it .

Thanks for the help guys an gals .

Jack

[dwcopple]

isn't there a forum for them? I have heard that the stocks flex like mad and people have cheap and easy fixes for the issues with them. Google?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=savage+axis+stock+bedding

[jackstan]

Thanks for that link , the way it went to the place was interesting to watch ! I went through a couple of threads and did get one jewel , the Devcon apparently is some very strong stuff as compared to Marine-Tex . Never did find out how well it sticks to plastic so I'll have to go back and look around a little unless someone else has experience to add .

UPS stopped by and delivered both products so all I need is some time now .

Anyone else have some wisdom to add ?

Jack

[10x25mm]

I am pretty certain that the Savage Axis stock is made from Nylon 6/6, which is the cheapest of the moldable structural thermoplastics. Nylon 6/6 is easily bonded in its raw, molded state, but there are two problems which arise during bedding nylon stocks.

One is a mismatch in stiffness, most bulk adhesives (the bedding compounds) are thermosets and are 50% (or more) stiffer than raw nylon. If the nylon stock material has a lot of glass or talc reinforcement this will not be as much of an issue, but the cheap gunstocks often seem deficient in glass fill - particularly the Savage Axis. This tends to cause a serious stress concentration at the bedding compound/stock interface, followed by quick breakage in service.

Raw Nylon 6/6 is notorious for drying out under low humidity conditions and cracking, so manufacturers/molders add moisture control additives to the bulk molding compound and/or the applied finish. The moisture control additives used are oil based and routinely cause problems with bedding compound adhesion.

I would try to use a soft, urethane based bedding compound to get around the first problem. The stiffness mismatch probably caused your problems with AcraGlass, which is a very stiff epoxy even before you add glass floc. Devcon is a less stiff epoxy, but still likely to be too stiff. I have had good success with hot melt adhesives, which are thermoplastic and match low glass fill Nylon 6/6 stiffness well. Because the hot melt adhesive does not stay hot for long, you have to do a little bit at a time, which makes the whole process time consuming and the end result shows a lot of solidification lines - but it works.

Wipe the surface you are bonding bedding to with a good oil solvent. I use xylene, but you can also use brake/engine cleaner sprays or even engine starting ether. The deoiling effect of these cleaners is relatively shortlived, so you should deoil immediately before applying bedding compound.

[jackstan]

I don't think I've heard of urethane based bedding compounds ..... of course I have led a sheltered life :smile:

I was thinking of getting a can of brake cleaner to wash out the hollowed out area .

Thank you , Jack

[Jailer]

I used a 40W soldering iron to displace material in the for end of my axis stock before I filled it with epoxy, basically giving it a bunch of small protrusions to hold onto. The trigger guard area I just filled with epoxy and glued the trigger guard in place.

[jackstan]

Jailer , I never thought of using a soldering iron like that ..... here I am with a Dremel bit chucked in my drill press hogging out material to make room for reinforcing rods in the wrist . I've got the wrist gouged out to about a quarter inch wide and five-sixteenths or more deep . Also have holes going into the hollow of the stock and a couple inches of stock roughed up where the rods will be there . The steel is some old 7018 electrodes that got wet , I've ground off the coating and roughed the steel up in the process .

I had not thought of bonding the trigger guard in place . However , I did notice there is some room to spare between that and the stock . My thought was to apply release compound to the guard but pack the area full of Devcon to help reinforce what I have been cutting out of the stock . It doesn't look as though the idea will interfere with the trigger group in any way and would add another quarter inch or so of strength . Also it looks like enough room to add another sectoin of welding rod if I was to go this route . I think I like your idea Jailer .

I only want to have to do this once so if anyone has something that will work better I'm not to proud to listen . If someone can school me a bit on urethane based bedding compound , are we talking hot glue gun type stuff ?

Thanks all , Jack

[10x25mm]

I can't find the specific product I used several years ago on a .375 A Bolt stock which broke its bedding, but the products are referred to as "two part urethanes". You have to get the right hardness material because these can be as soft as jelly when they are hardened. The medium soft urethanes are usually referred to as 'rubber' in their description. You want one like putty before it sets up so it doesn't drip out of your stock.

Here is a Browning note on their usage of 'rubber' like two part urethanes in their BOSS models:

http://www.browning.com/customerservice/qna/detail.asp?id=116

My .375 A Bolt had the hard epoxy bedding and it simply shattered. Maybe a question to Browning can get you the name of the product they use. Loctite is the major supplier of two part urethanes and I am pretty certain that the product I used was a Loctite product.

[Ol` Joe]

Most of the manufactures molded "plastic" stocks today are recycled milk cartons and not worth playing with. They twist and bend under recoil flexing way too much to bother trying to kept bedding in and warp and move when subject to extremes in temp almost as bad as wood. I`d spend a couple bucks on a glass, or carbon fiber replacement. Even a Boydes laminate would be 100% better then the factory plastics for stability and improving accuracy although it will be a little heavier.

[jackstan]

Joe , I tried doing a search for replacement stock specific to the Axis line There was one , a "VTR" I think it was that sold for double what the rifles sell for . Then there was the Youtube videos of guys that made their own stock , nice work (sometimes) but not a commercial venture . Then of course is the replacement milk jug stock that has the same problen that this stock has .

To me Boyds is pretty close to the bottom of the barrel but I do agree with you that even their laminate would be better than this . I did not check with them but I don't know as though they make a stock for the Axis . Really , I have done Google search and haven't come up with a glass or composite replacement for this model . Alas though , my google ** never has been very good so if you have a name or model I could try , I'll chase it .

This rifle is a left hand and it fits me nice and the bolt is smoother than some other rifles I've used so it has potential . Just not the cost of a VTR stock worth of potential .

10X25 , thank you , knowing it's from Loctite may give me a start if I really need to get devious . The man that reinforced my Stephens model two hundred stock used some type of epoxy and it stuck to that plastic . I haven't been able to contact him though so that's why I'm out here on my own . The Stephens problem was different though . The wrist was strong enough but any pressure on the forearm would flex the action . The Axis seems strong enough in the front for use on the bags or just holding with the hand , put your face on the stock very hard and things get squirrelly quick .

I got a can of brake cleaner today so I'll try a small patch and see if it will melt this recycled milk jug .

Jack

[10x25mm]

Jack -

I think I used Loctite 29460 with a bit of talc to stiffen it before it set up. Here is one vendor:

http://www.eis-inc.com/suppliers/productlist.asp?prod_area=673&showcase_no=52400

You should be able to buy a 50ml twin tube for less than $ 20 if you look around on the internet. Urethanes are horribly expensive, but they really work on nylon 6/6. Talc is cheap and easy to mix in. Use about 20% by volume.

[jackstan]

Thanks , I may still have to go that route .... and find talc as well . I mixed a very small amount of the devcon and applied it to a small spot I prepared for it under the forearm . I hosed the area with brake cleaner first and let dry then a small dab of epoxy . Today will be forty-eight hours so I'll take a chisel to it and see how easy it is to break loose . I may still need to refine the mix of that stuff if it shows promise .

It would have been so much easier if Savage had used a metal frame in the area and molded the tupperware over it . Ah well ........ you watch , after I get done fooling with this thing someone will make a good commercial replacement .

Jack

[Jailer]

Ole Joe is right it's kind of like polishing a turd trying to improve the factory Axis stock.

I reinforced mine for one specific reason. Accuracy would go to hell if I would rest the fore end anywhere except directly under the front ring of the action. After adding 2 small steel rods and epoxy to the for end as well as the trigger guard area it solved that problem so I'm happy.

[10x25mm]

Jack -

Talc is readily available and cheap, I probably have enough for you to do 10 gunstocks. You use talc rather than fiberglass in urethane because the particles are short. You could use clean beach sand, for that matter. Fiberglass floc fibers tend to break over time in a soft bedding compound like urethane.

[jackstan]

I know I'm up against a wall with Savage . I've talked to their representatives about the idea of building a rifle to suite someone willing to pay more to have it done right the first time . The idea is dead in the water I believe , if a good stock is going to happen an aftermarket company will have to get it done I'm sorry to say .

Jack