Open Carry Question...

[Astrogiblet]

Ok.. I wanted to post this on OCDO but I don't want to make another account for one post..

Lets see if I have this right...

I can open carry in MI as long as I am 18 years old? I don't have to have a carry license or anything?

Not that I would necessarily want to do this.. but it is interesting.


-Brandon

[Tallbear]

I can open carry in MI as long as I am 18 years old? I don't have to have a carry license or anything?
-Brandon

Yes.....

[Garbo]

Take the time to read the laws carefully. Take note of no carry zones and the fact that you cannot enter your vehicle with a loaded gun concieled or not.

edit to add,, unless you have a cpl

[sse]

When does one generally open carry? Only time I've seen it is an LEO or an employee of a gun shop, all of whom probably have a CPL, anyway.

[Astrogiblet]

Cool. The only time I can see me using this (I tend to be one of those people who like to fly under the radar so I wouldn't exactly go to walmart carrying my .45) is when walking my dog in the middle of the night. I don't exactly need a gun on me, but it makes me feel better.


-Brandon

[Astrogiblet]

When does one generally open carry? Only time I've seen it is an LEO or an employee of a gun shop, all of whom probably have a CPL, anyway.


If you look on opencarry.org they open carry everywhere.. wally world, home depot... anywhere..

One guy on there site just makes sure he asks a store manager if they are ok with it before he goes in..



-Brandon

[Done Deal]

When does one generally open carry? Only time I've seen it is an LEO or an employee of a gun shop, all of whom probably have a CPL, anyway.


Back in the day, they used to issue Hunting and Target permits which also covered fishing. It made it ok to carry concealed but....otherwise, open carry was the only way. For hunting, accessibility is more important than concealment and it is kinda tough to conceal a scoped big bore....

[sse]

Back in the day, they used to issue Hunting and Target permits which also covered fishing. It made it ok to carry concealed but....otherwise, open carry was the only way. For hunting, accessibility is more important than concealment and it is kinda tough to conceal a scoped big bore....
Yeah, hunting was my other thought, as well. Other than in the woods, no way I would want to open carry anywhere...

[Done Deal]

Other than in the woods, no way I would want to open carry anywhere...

You and me both...at least not until the civil war erupts....

[sse]

Come to think of it, an open carry hunter wouldn't have the transport problems of non-CPL holders.

I have a bud, non-CPL holder, who used to say when he's hunting he's putting a piece in his back pack, no matter what. Guess I should tell him if he would just open carry the thing he wouldn't be committing any crimes, assuming he's not poaching...LOL!

[Garbo]

Well the pointe of a sidearm while in the field is quick access. n the back pack doesnt exactly accomplish that. OC would make much more sence then committing a felony.

[Venator12]

Ok.. I wanted to post this on OCDO but I don't want to make another account for one post..

Lets see if I have this right...

I can open carry in MI as long as I am 18 years old? I don't have to have a carry license or anything?

Not that I would necessarily want to do this.. but it is interesting.


-Brandon
Open carry is legal, below are a few hightlights.

YOU CAN OPENLY CARRY A HANDGUN IN MICHIGAN*

1) Any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who owns a safety inspected handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL. Private property rules over-ride state law in regards to firearm possession.
MSP Legal Update Newsletter: April 2007: Did You Know: …It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol…...

PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital. h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act (BAR). (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
b) A peace officer.
c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

2) If you don’t have a CPL, you must transport your handgun as prescribe by law.

Michigan State Police Web Site. Transporting a pistol in a motor vehicle?

Answer A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle. The law defines ‘lawful purpose’ as: 1) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area. 2) While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair. 3) While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business. 4) While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol. 5) While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale. 6) While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted. 7) While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

3) No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law.
In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

THE MICHIGAN SUPREME COURT CONCLUDED: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.

MCRGO v. Ferndale: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.

4) Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm.

ADVISORY NOTE: Though this section on disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

BRANDISHING Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: …In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.

5) A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address. No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. It is your option to provide ID/CPL.

ADVISORY NOTE: Each situation is different. We recommend you cooperate with all lawful questions and requests. Ask the officer if the reason you are being detained is for the legal open carry of a firearm. After giving your name and address, ask if you are free to go, ask if you are being detained. If they continue to ask questions about ID and why you are carrying a gun, repeat the question, am I free to go? Am I being detained? If the situation escalates ask for a supervisor. Remember the officer can arrest you for anything, don’t resist the arrest. After an illegal arrest you may have legal options you can employ.

6) An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc.

Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

“Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”
Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441

“…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"

ADVISORY NOTE: Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force. Taking a self defense/firearm course is recommended. Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.

FOR MORE INFO SEE WWW.OPENCARRY.ORG and click on forums, then click on MICHIGAN.

*The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research on the subject of open carry in Michigan. You are responsible in determining the accuracy of any information listed above. If you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

[sse]

Well the pointe of a sidearm while in the field is quick access. n the back pack doesnt exactly accomplish that. OC would make much more sence then committing a felony.
Precisely. I never said the guy was making any sense...8)

[Hugle]

GREAT, another Open Carry question on the board..... I have asked SEVERAL mod's to put a sticky on this topic, but nooooooooooo, never happened. Open Carry is here to stay, so some might think it is STUPID to do, but it's a PERSONAL choice. Let's try it one more time. How about a STICKY for this type of topic MOD'S ???????????????????????????????

[Astrogiblet]

Thanks Venator for the full legal page.. I need to print that out so I can carry it with me if/when I open carry.


-Brandon

[Sigster]

I opened carried a few days ago in a D&W supermarket in Grand Rapids. Sig 232. Nobody noticed and I didn't care if they did. Getting a bit tired of being so damned passive. Think I may do it more often....

[Garbo]

Thanks Venator for the full legal page.. I need to print that out so I can carry it with me if/when I open carry.


-Brandon

You may want to get it straight from the MSP website if you're going to use it as an on the spot defence.

[Runner4406pack]

I always open carry to go check my mail, hiking, and or midnight walks. I wish I wasn't broke so I could get my CPL!

[Astrogiblet]

You may want to get it straight from the MSP website if you're going to use it as an on the spot defence.


Yea, good point..


-Brandon

[Astrogiblet]

Ok.. another Open Carry question..

Suppose I'm walking my dog.. at night.. open carrying.. now, I live in a neighborhood, but thats not to say that there isn't a fair share of crime around here (cars stolen every so often, and lots of people trying to steal change out of peoples cars at night), and theres a big druggy/dealer on the next street over (yea, and this is in downtown Grand Blanc.. things sure have changed). If, say, a racoon or other animal was to attack me or my dog.. do I have ANY legal premise to shoot that racoon? I know the law states you cannot discharge a firearm within city limits.. but does that include if I'm getting attacked?

Thats the only real (lame, I know) reason I could ever see using my gun while I'm walking.. unless I spooked someone stealing a car or stealing change and they pulled a weapon on me first...


-Brandon

[Garbo]

Use your firearm to protect yourself or another from great bodily harm or death period. If you think that coon could cause great bodily harm or death and its worth the risk of a possible riccocet into one of the neighboring houses, well you get my drift. Not a lawyer here but I bet they would have a hard time defending you on somethig like that.

A big dog now or a pit bull, that may be different but as one of the lawyers out here has said, if there is any way to get out of pulling the trigger and I'm sure that applies to everything, then take that out.

[RifleGuy]

If a 'coon is gnawing on me he gets shot; the risk to health & life is indeed substantial. 'Coons carry rabies and any 'coon chewing on a human can be assumed to be rabid or at a minimum distempered; a 'coon will escape before fighting in most cases. Regardless, a coon can easily kill a good-sized dog and cause major physical trauma if snacking on your extremities.

Now, that doesn't mean the local prosectutor won't hit you with a charge of 'Reckless Discharge of a Firearm' or similar charge, and as Garbo mentioned there is a possiblity of a bullet going where you didn't intend which opens you to other charges and criminal or civil suit.

How's that for muddying the waters?

[Garbo]

Actually that helps make it crystal clear. Dont shoot unless (A) you are sure you need to and (B) you're sure have to and (C) see both A and B.

If you're walking your dog the likelyhood of you being attached by an animal is slim and in most cases your dog will do what it can. Shooting to protect your dog I'm willing to bet that isnt legal since I believe dogs are considered property. And if /when you take a CPL class you will learn that you cannot use lethal force to protect property in this state anyway. Hopefully a lawyer can confirm that for me (the dog part).

[RifleGuy]

I was essentially repeating what you originally said, but it makes me feel smart! Ha!
I would be interested in Mr. Simmons' read on this subject; perhaps a clearing of the water.

[Astrogiblet]

Well that helps..

Yea... Racoons are very viscous animals.. and they are tough, definitely not something I'd want to fight with a knife.. I'd lose that one.

Kinda funny.. last night after I wrote that fake scenario of a racoon attacking me, I let my dog out to go outside, went out with him with a flashlight and hear a racoon making noise across the street. So I light up the area I here it in, and I see three sets of eyes staring back at me.. Luckily my dog was ready to go back inside (My guns are the PD anyways.. they are completing their safety inspection).

So as we get back inside, I see two full size racoons and one baby run across the street and into my yard.. those little buggers are scarey.



-Brandon

[RifleGuy]

A friend of mine is a coon hunter. He was floating down the river in a small boat, spotted a coon in a tree, popped a shot into him with a .22LR pistol.
The shut pulled low, hitting the coon in a rear leg. The coon toppled out of the tree, into the boat and the fight was on!

My friend managed to get 2 more shots into the coon who, I believe, made an escape overboard, but not before my friend emptied the rest of the magazine into the bottom of the boat.

The coon was never seen again and the boat developed what engineers refer to as "negative bouyancy" and began a serious impersonation of a U-boat.

[who dat]

Well that helps..

Yea... Racoons are very viscous animals.. and they are tough, definitely not something I'd want to fight with a knife.. I'd lose that one.

Kinda funny.. last night after I wrote that fake scenario of a racoon attacking me, I let my dog out to go outside, went out with him with a flashlight and hear a racoon making noise across the street. So I light up the area I here it in, and I see three sets of eyes staring back at me.. Luckily my dog was ready to go back inside (My guns are the PD anyways.. they are completing their safety inspection).

So as we get back inside, I see two full size racoons and one baby run across the street and into my yard.. those little buggers are scarey.



-Brandon
Tell us more about this comment. If they made you leave your guns, they have broken the law.

[Garbo]

Yes please elaborate on that one. How long have they had them? What are their procedures?

[sixhundredrr]

Give consideration to a can of mace/pepper spray as a deterrent for animal attacks. I've heard of some folks macing angry pit bulls and having the dog run off. Many animals have a more acute sense of smell and will be very apt to run away from the irritant. Kinda like a skunk's natural odor. There is a lot of liability in discharging your firearm. Not to say don't do it if you feel really threatened, but do all you can to avoid it. I say carry both.

[Astrogiblet]

Who Dat/ Garbo: Yes.. I went to the police station. I filled out their 15 question quiz, which, by the way, they gave me a pamphlet with the quiz and said "If you need to look, all the answers are in there". Kinda useless IMO..

Then she graded my quiz, asked for my gun and the key to the lock, said it "usually takes about a day" and that she would call me the next day when its ready so I can come complete the rest of the paperwork.

She called me this morning saying it was ready, I just needed to fill out the rest of the purchase a pistol license or whatever its called..

The one thing I didn't like.. is they took my gun without giving me any kinda receipt that they had it.. If they wanted to keep it I had NOTHING saying that I actually left my Glock there...


sixhundredrr: I didn't even think about using mace.. thats a really good idea to carry both. I think racoons are so damn fast that if they were attacking it would be semi-difficult to hit one with a gun anyways....



-Brandon

[Garbo]

They are suppose to give you your green card on the spot. They are not suppose to keep your gun either. That all providing that you went in there with a valid purchase permit.

[Astrogiblet]

No, I did not have a purchase permit.. Had to do that while there..

Also, the lady at the desk seemed like she had to keep asking what to do.. But shes a friend of mines mom so I'm not about to tell her she doesn't know what shes doing.. :D


-Brandon

[Hugle]

You let them keep your weapon overnight? Did Kwammy have another party at the mansion???????

[KayL]

GREAT, another Open Carry question on the board..... I have asked SEVERAL mod's to put a sticky on this topic, but nooooooooooo, never happened. Open Carry is here to stay, so some might think it is STUPID to do, but it's a PERSONAL choice. Let's try it one more time. How about a STICKY for this type of topic MOD'S ???????????????????????????????
Jeez, Hugle. Someone must'a forgot to tell you about the honey part of vinegar and honey. :help:

[Astrogiblet]

Soo.. I went there to pick up my gun today... and there was some other lady there.. She started telling me that I needed to send this paperwork to GA to have the previous owner fill it out, and then bring it back to them before they would give me my gun back..

I told her I had read ALL the laws on Michigans website and they said all I had to do was bring it in to get it safety inspected. She immediately loosened up a bit when she realized I wasn't just some dumb teenager..

So then she gave me the license paperwork, told me to fill it out then go over to the city administration counter (they are in the same building) and have a notary sign it.. Well I filled out the paperwork and went over to the other counter.. and the lady is like "Well you were suppoed to fill this out in front of me so I can notarize that you were the one signing it.".. So I had to sign my name in the corner of each box again and then she notarized it.

So then I go back to the police department counter, and the lady tells me I really need the sellers information and shes not sure what the chief wants me to do if I don't have it. So she told me to call the seller and get his address... Did that...

Then shes like "OK I think we got it all. This is really good that we got this done, it would just have been easier had you called us first and then we could have done it our way instead of me having to make up some things for the form." So she looks over the paperwork again, looks at my gun again, and says "Oh.. The Chief signed off on everything but it looks like the chief hasn't done the inspection yet (or signed off on it).. He's on vacation right now and you're going to have to wait another day to get your gun back.. which will be Monday.. But this is really good that we got this part done, really good!"

I'm not very happy.. The only good thing was she asked if I had any other guns and needed gun locks for them.. and she gave me a free gun lock (even though I don't have any other guns and I already had a lock for my Glock). Which is probably a lot better then the piece of crap one I bought from walmart that the key doesn't even line up properly..


So I'm pretty frustrated.. My Dad knows the police chief.. think I might have him complain to the Chief of the incompetency of the front desk workers.. Had this paperwork been done yesterday, I would have had my gun back today..



-Brandon

[Astrogiblet]

You let them keep your weapon overnight? Did Kwammy have another party at the mansion???????


What was I supposed to do? "Oh I'm sorry, if you have to keep it overnight then I want my unregistered, illegal-in-this-state gun back until you can get around to doing it all in one day."


-Brandon

[sixhundredrr]

Who Dat/ Garbo: Yes.. I went to the police station. I filled out their 15 question quiz, which, by the way, they gave me a pamphlet with the quiz and said "If you need to look, all the answers are in there". Kinda useless IMO..

Then she graded my quiz, asked for my gun and the key to the lock, said it "usually takes about a day" and that she would call me the next day when its ready so I can come complete the rest of the paperwork.

She called me this morning saying it was ready, I just needed to fill out the rest of the purchase a pistol license or whatever its called..

The one thing I didn't like.. is they took my gun without giving me any kinda receipt that they had it.. If they wanted to keep it I had NOTHING saying that I actually left my Glock there...


sixhundredrr: I didn't even think about using mace.. thats a really good idea to carry both. I think racoons are so damn fast that if they were attacking it would be semi-difficult to hit one with a gun anyways....



-Brandon



I had never thought of it either, but I was debating with a person on YouTube who brought it up. I thought it would be rather effective.


And jeez, you'd only have to wait 10-20 minutes for someone at Meijer to open the case and get you your spray... not overnight. Sheesh, that's crazy.

[Astrogiblet]

They keep that stuff locked up nowdays? Man..

Anyone know if bear spray is legal in michigan? If I was gonna get pepper spray might as well get EFFECTIVE pepper spray :D




-Brandon

[Hugle]

What was I supposed to do? "Oh I'm sorry, if you have to keep it overnight then I want my unregistered, illegal-in-this-state gun back until you can get around to doing it all in one day."


-Brandon

Short answer? Yes. Take it and leave. Ask when all the parties involved will be available to do it all, at once...

[Runner4406pack]

Short answer? Yes. Take it and leave. Ask when all the parties involved will be available to do it all, at once...

YEP...did anyone consider that they could be doing things like ballistics testing on the gun to see if it was used in a crime? That would be a kicker the police doing an illegal investigation.

[Astrogiblet]

I doubt they are doing that.. It would be a waste of money to do that to every weapon that came in.



-Brandon

[remingtondude58]

I doubt they are doing that.. It would be a waste of money to do that to every weapon that came in.



-Brandon

Most people take theirs home with theme

[Astrogiblet]

Yea.. well this is my first gun.. I did not know that I could tell them I wanted to keep my illegal gun until it was more convenient.


-Brandon

[dougwg]

Yes, you should have left WITH your gun. It's NOT illegal. You have 10 days and if it goes over 10 days it's their fault if they (whoever) was not available to do the inspection.

So... you let them borrow your gun for a few days? Does the person that you gave it to have a CPL? If they don't then thats a crime.

Sounds like they would be in some sort of firearm violation being in possession of a hand gun that didn't belong to them.

hrmmmmmmm....

[Astrogiblet]

Yes, you should have left WITH your gun. It's NOT illegal. You have 10 days and if it goes over 10 days it's their fault if they (whoever) was not available to do the inspection.

So... you let them borrow your gun for a few days? Does the person that you gave it to have a CPL? If they don't then thats a crime.

Sounds like they would be in some sort of firearm violation being in possession of a hand gun that didn't belong to them.

hrmmmmmmm....


We are talking about the police department here.. I think the chief of police has a CPL..


-Brandon

[dougwg]

We are talking about the police department here.. I think the chief of police has a CPL..


-Brandon

He was not there, you gave it to some lady there....she committed a crime.

As far as I can see it's black and white.

[Garbo]

We are talking about the police department here.. I think the chief of police has a CPL..


-Brandon


Dont assume anyone working at the PD or oeven an LEO has absolute power to do as they wish. Now will anyone there on their own press charges on her? No not likely and hopefully someon educated her on the issue. But the most important thing here is now you know. Again I'm assumn you're young and likely just getting into gun ownership but it is very very important to know the laws expecially with the fact that you dont have a CPL. You can get tripped up simply transporting a gun if you dont answer a question properly. And even when you do get a cpl study and ask questions.

[PhotoTom]

Guys...the lady at the station did not personally take possession of the pistol, she took possession as an agent of the police department.

The pistol was voluntarily left at the station. Had Brandon objected and said he'd prefer to bring it back when the inspection could be completed and she refused to give it back...then there'd arguably be a crime committed. But as this stands, it was an agreed upon transaction.

Relax! :cool:

[Tallbear]

And there is nothing "illegal" for the police to "actually" do a safety inspection. They "may" take it on their range and test fire it to insure it functions. And yes, they can do this to "any" (even collector) firearm.

It was common practice for this to happen back in the 70's. I left a number of guns "over night" for the safety inspection.

[Astrogiblet]

Garbo: Yes I am young and just getting into firearms.

And I'm really really not worried about this. I gave the police department a Glock.. AKA those guns you see going through all those insane torture tests, thrown outta airplanes, driven over, etc..

They can run a ballistics test on it too.. I do not care.. They will find that the previous owner of my gun was a 53 year old man thats smoked 4 packs a day for most of his life and didn't have the strength left in his arms from all his various illnesses to handle the recoil of the .45 so he bought a .357 SIG instead and sold me this gun.. And the previous owner was Dean Forest Guns and Ammo in Garden City, GA.



-Brandon

[Runner4406pack]

Garbo: Yes I am young and just getting into firearms.

And I'm really really not worried about this. I gave the police department a Glock.. AKA those guns you see going through all those insane torture tests, thrown outta airplanes, driven over, etc..

They can run a ballistics test on it too.. I do not care.. They will find that the previous owner of my gun was a 53 year old man thats smoked 4 packs a day for most of his life and didn't have the strength left in his arms from all his various illnesses to handle the recoil of the .45 so he bought a .357 SIG instead and sold me this gun.. And the previous owner was Dean Forest Guns and Ammo in Garden City, GA.



-Brandon

Right, right no one is making/poking fun of you for it, it is just a fairly uncommon practice to keep it overnight; which they have no reason to be doing that. Personally speaking, I would care not for any legal ramifications but solely on the fact that it doesn't need to be done and no law states that it has to be done. Always remember the police are not the law they are the protectors of it and servants to the public. In no way should they ever BE the law or act ABOVE the law because then it breaks down the purpose of any police officer. :smoke:

[Runner4406pack]

I doubt they are doing that.. It would be a waste of money to do that to every weapon that came in.



-Brandon

Not if they decide that they would like to start not only doing this for weapons they find / are brought to them but for every weapon to create a database in which individuals can be prosecuted for one thing or another...maybe I should take off the tin-foil hat! :wink:

[Garbo]

And there is nothing "illegal" for the police to "actually" do a safety inspection. They "may" take it on their range and test fire it to insure it functions. And yes, they can do this to "any" (even collector) firearm.

It was common practice for this to happen back in the 70's. I left a number of guns "over night" for the safety inspection.

And see,,, we all learn something new every day.

[Astrogiblet]

Yea... I understand what your saying.. I wish I would have gotten it back immediately.. But the lady behind the counter even said "It usually takes a day for them to complete the inspection."

I may have said this before in this thread.. but I think I'd rather have my police chief worry about criminals and get around to inspecting my gun later then to have him drop what he's doing so I can get in and out in one day.. ya know?


-Brandon

[dougwg]

In Westland they have a rubber stamp with the chiefs signature. So he can golf.... er.... I mean worry about criminals and stuff.

[RifleGuy]

This might sound odd coming from me, but it sure looks like some of you have jumped pretty hard on Brandon. He's kinda new to the whole handgun scene. How many of you could wade through the less than owner-friendly gun laws if you didn't have a lot of experience?
Give the kid a break, his only real mistake was believing that the pro's at the Police Dept. actually understand the laws as they relate to handgun safety inspection (registration).
Hindsight is 20/20, ease up.

[Astrogiblet]

This might sound odd coming from me, but it sure looks like some of you have jumped pretty hard on Brandon. He's kinda new to the whole handgun scene. How many of you could wade through the less than owner-friendly gun laws if you didn't have a lot of experience?
Give the kid a break, his only real mistake was believing that the pro's at the Police Dept. actually understand the laws as they relate to handgun safety inspection (registration).
Hindsight is 20/20, ease up.


Ha, thanks for "having my back". :D

Yea.. I would assume that they would have had to deal with registering guns on a daily basis? Maybe Grand Blanc is just too preppy and nobody here owns guns..

They have several signs on there walls listing out various things about gun inspections.. you'd think they'd actually know how to do them... :(


-Brandon

[RifleGuy]

I just trying to get a better position in line to take a kick at you myself! Ha!

[Remasculated]

YEP...did anyone consider that they could be doing things like ballistics testing on the gun to see if it was used in a crime?
Doubtful, unless they have “the lab.” That’s where they run ballistics—at least in Hawaii, anyway. Back when McGarrett was running Five-Oh, he was always telling Dano to “get it down to the lab to check on ballistics” whenever they thought they’d found the murder weapon.

Now, I suppose “down” could’ve been in the basement of 5-0 HQ, but somehow I always got the impression that “the lab” was located way across town and McGarrett was just giving Dano some B.S job to do to get him out of his oily hair. I always wondered, too, if Dano drove the gun “to the lab” using his PV and, if so, whether they reimbursed him for mileage.

[RifleGuy]

:clap:

[Dedpoet]

He's kinda new to the whole handgun scene. How many of you could wade through the less than owner-friendly gun laws if you didn't have a lot of experience?


I was terrified when I had my first handgun safety inspected. It flew in the face of everything I had thought about guns. Here I am, right across the street from a high school. I'm about to carry a pistol (yeah, in a case, you know what I mean) into the police station! For those of us who didn't grow up around guns it's pretty intimidating. It's great to have boards like this where you can get good advice and pointed in the right direction for learning this stuff.

[dougwg]

I was terrified when I had my first handgun safety inspected. It flew in the face of everything I had thought about guns. Here I am, right across the street from a high school. I'm about to carry a pistol (yeah, in a case, you know what I mean) into the police station! For those of us who didn't grow up around guns it's pretty intimidating. It's great to have boards like this where you can get good advice and pointed in the right direction for learning this stuff.

Yep, thats cuz the media pounds it into our brains that guns kill and are evil and only criminals have them and if you have them you are labeled a "gunman".

Pure BS.

I hope I didn't come across as jumping on Astrogiblet as that was not my intent.

[TFin04]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm confused as to how you got the pistol.

If it came from a dealer in GA, it needed to be shipped to an FFL here. That FFL would not have released it to you without filling out a pistol purchase permit, which you said you didn't have one until you got to the PD.

[Remasculated]

Not that getting a possible murder weapon down to “the lab” is a B.S. job, mind you. Actually, it’s a pretty important endeavor, especially if you want to wrap-up the case before the end credits roll and Mannix comes on.

I just thought such a mundane task was beneath Dano’s paygrade. If I had been in charge, I would’ve had that fairly overweight Samoan detective walk the sumbitch across town to “the lab.”

But that’s just me.

[Astrogiblet]

I was terrified when I had my first handgun safety inspected. It flew in the face of everything I had thought about guns. Here I am, right across the street from a high school. I'm about to carry a pistol (yeah, in a case, you know what I mean) into the police station! For those of us who didn't grow up around guns it's pretty intimidating. It's great to have boards like this where you can get good advice and pointed in the right direction for learning this stuff.


For sure.. Definitely intimidating. Not only am I hearing how horrible I am for getting a gun from family and friends, but now I'm going to walk into a police station carrying it? Haha.. plus its the town hall, so its like.. extra sensitive to carry a gun into there.. And then they start asking questions.. "Where'd you get it from", etc... It definitely doesn't feel like owning a gun is a right when you walk into there.. It feels more like a "privilege." And yes I'm kinda quoting a bumper sticker I saw in a shooting range in GA: "Owning a gun is a right, not a privilege."

TFin04: I got the gun from a coworker in a private sale.. And he got the gun maybe a year earlier from an FFL dealer in GA.


-Brandon

[Hugle]

Jeez, Hugle. Someone must'a forgot to tell you about the honey part of vinegar and honey. :help:
Musta missed that class..... Sorry

[Garbo]

Yes.....


I have to say Tallbear this was a good attempt at keeping this thread short and sweet with a quick answer lol, but you know this group.

[Leader]

I have to say Tallbear this was a good attempt at keeping this thread short and sweet with a quick answer lol, but you know this group.

And seven pages later, it is still the correct answer.
No other discussion is needed to answer the original question.

[Astrogiblet]

Well tonight I get my gun back.. and am going to open carry for the first time (walking my dog late at night).

I guess wish me luck? Lets hope theres not some Grand Blanc ordinance that I'm going to get screwed on.


-Brandon

[Garbo]

I'm a little shakey on this one for sure but I believe due to preemption that the individual municipality cannot make any laws more restrictive then what state or federal does. Someone much more knowledgeable on that would have to confirm that. I do know that it covers CPL holders but have to admit I dont know if its across the board.

[Astrogiblet]

Yea.. I kinda read that too..

IDK.. I could just see myself being detained for several hours while a few policeman go over the laws trying to figure out if I did anything wrong..


-Brandon

[dougwg]

Well tonight I get my gun back.. and am going to open carry for the first time (walking my dog late at night).

I guess wish me luck? Lets hope theres not some Grand Blanc ordinance that I'm going to get screwed on.


-Brandon

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(yayrvkz1fwkwtefdcmmjlvia))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-Act-319-of-1990

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(viqbay55o5pafr55ujy0zceu))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-123-1102

Local ordinances against any firearm restrictions are illegal due to the preemption law of 1990. This was upheld in a MI Supreme Court decision. SO whether Monroe has an ordinance or not they can't enforce it. Most cities have something like that to intimidate the uneducated.

3) No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law.



In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.



THE MICHIGAN SUPREME COURT CONCLUDED: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.



Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.



MCRGO v. Ferndale: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.

[Garbo]

and there you go,,,,

[Astrogiblet]

dougwg, thanks! Your amazing! I gotta print this stuff out and stuff it in my holster.. or something.



-Brandon

[Jim Simmons]

My only question is why this thread is sticky'd. There's too many other issues for this one to be stuck on top.

[Hugle]

My only question is why this thread is sticky'd. There's too many other issues for this one to be stuck on top.

Because I asked for it to be. I think there are too many OC topics on this board as it is and I think that topics like this can be merged into this one.

[dougwg]

May I ask what your thoughts are on open carry Jim?

[Venator12]

I am not the author of this article. But it reflects some aspects of why I at times open carry.
Link is here:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum6/12053.html

The Open Carry Argument

My primary goal when I’m out and about (besides whatever I went out and about to do) is to go about peaceably and not be the victim of a violent crime. To that end I carry a firearm whenever I go out as well as follow all the other standard safety practices like maintaining situational awareness, staying out of high crime areas, and avoiding confrontation. I also have a larger overall goal of making it through my life without shooting anyone. Simply put, I don’t want to be responsible, legally or morally, for another’s death. Those two goals might appear at first blush to be mutually exclusive, and with concealed carry it would be a difficult set of goals to realize.

Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed. Every study I’ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. That only makes sense, right? Robbers, rapists, or carjackers might be dumb and opportunistic, but they have the same instinctual sense of self preservation we all have. Hyenas don’t attack lions to steal the gazelle the lions have just killed. It’s all about risk management; are the potential gains (a tasty gazelle dinner) worth the potential pain and damage the lion’s teeth will cause, and does the hyena really need to test the lion to figure out the answer? No, the hyena can see the lion’s teeth and knows to stay well clear.

Deterrent Value:
When I’m carrying concealed I feel like my ‘teeth’ are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value. If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all. Concealed carry is good; it throws a wrench in the works for criminals who might see the teaming masses as a smorgasbord of financial gain. This deterrent effect is, nonetheless, indirect. At some point the thug will weigh the risks vs. the gains; is his current desperation for money/drugs/booze/gold grille greater than the gamble that one of those people might be carrying a gun? If he decides to play the odds, which helped along with surprise tip the scale in his favor, he will attack. Will his attack allow enough time for me to draw my concealed firearm to affect a defense? Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

Remember, I don’t want to be a victim and I don’t want to shoot anyone. So how do I realize both goals; or how do I make them inclusive? I can do that through open carry. By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal’s gains are far outweighed by the risk. There is no ambiguity when the thug is doing his risk assessment, there’s something right there in plain sight that can quickly and painfully change or terminate his life. You may not think his life has much value, but as I mentioned before, he has the same sense of self preservation as any other living creature and to him it’s every bit as valuable as yours is to you. It would be foolish to ignore this indisputable fact when you develop your overall tactical strategy.

First One To Be Shot:
There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or ‘the first one shot’ when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. If the robber walks in and sees that you’re armed, his whole plan has encountered an unexpected variable. In bank robberies where he might expect to see an armed guard he will have already factored that possibility into his plan, but only for the armed guard, not for open or concealed carry citizens. No robber robs a bank without at least a rudimentary plan. Nevertheless, being present for a bank robbery is an extremely remote possibility for most of us regardless of our preferred method of handgun carry. Back in the 7-11, if he sees someone is armed he is forced to either significantly alter the plan or abort it outright. Robbing is an inherently apprehensive occupation, and one that doesn’t respond well to instant modifications. He is not prepared to commit murder when he only planned for larceny. He knows that a petty robbery will not garner the intense police manhunt a murder would. He doesn’t know if you’re an armed citizen or a police officer and isn’t going to take the time to figure it out. Either way, if someone in the 7-11 is unexpectedly armed, how many others might be similarly adorned and where might they be? Does this armed individual have a partner who is likewise armed behind him in the parking lot, someone who is watching right now? Self preservation compels him to abort the plan for one that is less risky. So we see that the logic matches the history; open carriers are not the first ones shot because it doesn’t make any sense that they would be.

Surprise:
Probably the most common condemnation of open carry comes from the armchair tacticians who believe it’s better to have the element of surprise in a criminal encounter. Although this was touched on in the previous paragraph about deterrence, I’ll expand on it specifically here because there are some important truths you need to consider before you lean too heavily on this false support. Surprise as a defensive tactic is based on unrealistic or ill-thought out scenarios. The circumstance where several street toughs surround and taunt you for a while like in some Charles Bronson movie is not realistic; the mugger wants to get in and out as fast as possible. In most cases you will have only seconds to realize what’s happening, make a decision, and react. Imagine you’re walking along the sidewalk when two gangsta looking teenagers suddenly appear at the corner coming in the opposite direction. You have only seconds to react if their intent was to victimize you. Do you draw your concealed firearm now or wait until there’s an actual visible threat? If they are just on their way to church and you pull a gun on them, you are the criminal and you may forever lose your firearms rights for such a foolish action. If you don’t draw and they pull a knife or pistol when they’re just a couple steps away, your only options are draw (if you think you can) or comply. Imagine staring at the shiny blade of a knife being held by a very nervous and violent mugger, three inches from your or your wife’s throat and having to decide whether or not you have time to draw from concealment. The element of surprise may not do you any good; in fact the only surprising thing that might happen is that your concealed carry pistol gets taken along with your wallet. The thug will later get a good chuckle with his buddies about how you brought a gun to a knife fight. The simple truth is that while surprise is a monumentally superior tactical maneuver, it is exclusively an offensive action, not a defensive one. I am not aware of any army that teaches using surprise as a defense against attack. No squad of soldiers goes on patrol with their weapons hidden so that they can ‘surprise’ the enemy should they walk into an ambush.

It Will Get Stolen:
Another common criticism of open carry is that the firearm itself will be the target of theft, prompting as criminal to attack simply to get the gun from you. Like the previous example of being the first one shot in a robbery, above, this is despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens. It also blindly ignores the more obvious fact that anything you possess can make you the target of a crime, be it a car, a watch, or even a female companion (girlfriend, wife, or daughter). Crooks commonly steal for only two reasons; to get something you have that they want, or to get something that you have so they can sell it and buy something they want. There are no Robins in the hood trying to help the poor by stealing from the rich. I don’t claim it could never happen; just that it’s so remote a possibility that it doesn’t warrant drastic alterations to your self defense strategies. If you believe otherwise, leave your watch, sunglasses, jewelry, and cell phone at home, hop into your Pinto wagon, and head out to do your thing.

It Scares People:
One other statement against open carry I hear is that it damages public perception of firearms owners, or that by carrying openly we are not being good ambassadors to the public. While there are some people who have a genuine fear of firearms, due either to some horrible past experience or anti-gun indoctrination, the majority of people are either indifferent to them or quite fascinated by them. I’ve never kept track of the dozens of fellow citizens I’ve encountered who have marveled at the idea of open carry, but I do know exactly how many have expressed displeasure at it; one. People are scared of many things for many reasons; however, pretending those things do not exist only perpetuates the fear. Someone who is disturbed by open carry is going to be every bit as disturbed by concealed carry. The only effective way to overcome a fear is to come to the intellectual realization that the phobia is based on emotion and not on fact. By being a firsthand witness that a firearm was carried responsibly and peaceably, and wasn’t being carried in the commission of a crime, one discovers their fear is not fact based, but emotional. Thus, open carry can be a very effectual way of helping to overcome the emotionally based fear of the firearm. After all, you’d be much more likely to believe in ghosts if you saw one rather than if you listened to a ghost story around a campfire. We give much more credibility to the things we experience than we do to the things we hear. The bottom line is that this argument is made by people who don’t or haven’t carried openly; those of us who do so on a regular basis have an entirely different experience.

I’m Not Comfortable Carrying Openly:
This is really the only reasonable argument against open carry for an individual. We all have a comfort zone for any aspect of our lives and we prefer to stay within that comfort zone. We all agree that it’s better to be armed and never need the firearm than it is to need it and not have it. There is a point where concealing your firearm becomes so problematic, due to conditions like temperature or comfort, that some choose to either leave it behind or carry in such a way that it would be difficult or impossible to draw it quickly. If it takes me five or six seconds to draw my firearm from deep concealment and I had sufficient time before hand to do so, I would prefer to use that five or six seconds to avoid the entire encounter. I’m glad we have concealed carry laws in most of the states; it empowers and protects not only us but the general public through the offset deterrent effect. Some of us, however, choose the more direct deterrent effect of open carry. The combination of the two makes the criminal’s job that much more risky, that much more dangerous, and that much more uncertain.

[Astrogiblet]

Interesting article. He touched on the two things I thought of.. being shot first and pissing off people..

I'm one of the "not comfortable openly carrying" people.. as of now at least... I need someone to walk around with that also open carry's to kinda "doctor me in" haha... Anyone need someone to help carry groceries? :D


-Brandon

[who dat]

Interesting narrative for your rationale. One thing in defense of Concealed Carry is that in every state that has increased their number of concealed carry permit holders, the crime rate has gone down.

I can only attribute that to the criminal not knowing who is armed.

[Done Deal]

Interesting narrative for your rationale. One thing in defense of Concealed Carry is that in every state that has increased their number of concealed carry permit holders, the crime rate has gone down.

I can only attribute that to the criminal not knowing who is armed.


And, it fails to make mention of the training that every police officer that openly carries receives about weapon retention.

Until you feel somebody yanking on your gun from behind you in a crowd outside a bar (or anywhere you are openly carrying)....you may not have a clue about a real sheety feeling that instantly comes over you. I would just as soon not experience that again, thank you.

I am all for maintaining our rights but...those folks with a John Wayne syndrome are NOT the ones that best portray the typical gun owner.

[Hugle]

And, it fails to make mention of the training that every police officer that openly carries receives about weapon retention.

Until you feel somebody yanking on your gun from behind you in a crowd outside a bar (or anywhere you are openly carrying)....you may not have a clue about a real sheety feeling that instantly comes over you. I would just as soon not experience that again, thank you.

I am all for maintaining our rights but...those folks with a John Wayne syndrome are NOT the ones that best portray the typical gun owner.

Are you saying that every person that o/c's is a John Wayne wanna be looking for trouble. The majority that is?

[warlockmatized]

I am all for maintaining our rights but...those folks with a John Wayne syndrome are NOT the ones that best portray the typical gun owner.
we just had an OC picnic in Burton. our wives and children were in attendance. children as young as 3 years old. i met a lot of really nice, well informed people. after spending the better part of 4-5 hours with all of them, did not feel in any way shape or form that ANY of them had a complex/syndrome OR chip on their shoulders. guns only came up a few times out of all the conversations that were had.

i guess what i have learned that others have yet to realize is that it is NOT for show, it is not that any OC'er believes this is the old west and he/she is John Wayne, not any that i have met anyways. it is about our rights and freedoms. it is about the people in charge, making the ones that are not in charge, believe something that is not true. scaring them with false threats and intimidation of arrest/jail/prosecution for something that is totally legal. i would like to share with you something that the Burton police chief said as quoted in Sundays edition of the Flint Journal, regarding Saturdays picnic in Burton.....And what they are doing is legal, as long as the handguns they are carrying are visible and stay in their holsters, said Burton Police Chief John Benthall. Brandishing the weapon would be breaking the law, Benthall said.
"I have researched this every way I can and I cannot find any law against it," he said.

it is all about NOT going quietly into the night and allowing the people in charge to misguide us and outright LIE to us about our rights. using scare tactics at an attempt to keep us in line. an unexercised right is a right lost. that statement in itself does NOT pertain to firearms only. everyday in our country one right or another is in jeopardy of becoming extinct. i personally feel that the OC community is simply saying in one loud collective voice....."ENOUGH"!!!

Ron

[Done Deal]

Are you saying that every person that o/c's is a John Wayne wanna be looking for trouble. The majority that is?


Not at all. What I am saying is that the clown sauntering around with a six gun on his hip for everybody and their brother to see.....as a deterrent.....is not the image that I believe gun owners wish to be seen as.

I have been approached by two such open carry guys....one was making a production out of the fact that he was carrying (admittedly to intimidate) and the second was intoxicated enough even with his hammer thong off to give me better than even odds had it become necessary to draw from concealed carry. And, ya know what...had push come to shove....I liked my odds of going home a whole lot better than those dumb sheets that had no clue...


And again....John Wayne Syndrome or not....lets not forget about retention....or the news headlines that would most certainly be printed if somebody got their gun taken away and used in a crime....

Finally, if open carry was sooooo danged great, how come all LE doesn't carry that way off duty?????

[dougwg]

And if sooooo danged bad, how do you explain VA, AZ, VT, KY, IN, MN, GA and many other states?:idea:

[PhotoTom]

Finally, if open carry was sooooo danged great, how come all LE doesn't carry that way off duty?????

Against department policy...

[Done Deal]

And if sooooo danged bad, how do you explain VA, AZ, VT, KY, IN, MN, GA and many other states?:idea:

Indiana laws.....you want to bring up Indiana laws?????


But, legal or not, I do not believe that it is tactically prudent for John Q Citizen to be openly packing a pistol for everyday carry.....

[warlockmatized]

Indiana laws.....you want to bring up Indiana laws?????


But, legal or not, I do not believe that it is tactically prudent for John Q Citizen to be openly packing a pistol for everyday carry.....
an that is the great thing about living in a free country. you are allowed your opinion. but at the SAME time i would think you would be on board with ANY Americans rights being trampled on and our right to stand up against those doing the trampling.

[dougwg]

snip...I am all for maintaining our rights but...those folks with a John Wayne syndrome are NOT the ones that best portray the typical gun owner.

Ok, and who does?

I think cowards and hypocrites are NOT the ones that best portray the typical gun owner.

[Leader]

Ok, and who does?

I think cowards and hypocrites are NOT the ones that best portray the typical gun owner.

Does that mean like some cops & retired cops that think they are better qualified then some retired military that have actually USED firearms in more then one firefight?
And how about the common man, MOST of which still have common sense and don't need someone to tell them to come in out of the rain? (or keep their finger OFF the trigger)

[Venator12]

Interesting narrative for your rationale. One thing in defense of Concealed Carry is that in every state that has increased their number of concealed carry permit holders, the crime rate has gone down.

I can only attribute that to the criminal not knowing who is armed.

Can you cite this "fact" with some publication? Lott found that the correlation between an increase in concealed carry and a lowering of crime was not strong, but he did state that crime did NOT go up as many people thought it would. Lots of factors relate to crime rates so its hard to say that concealed carry is the reason for anything. The same argument goes for OC. There really isn't enough data to say one way or another.

[who dat]

Can you cite this "fact" with some publication? Lott found that the correlation between an increase in concealed carry and a lowering of crime was not strong, but he did state that crime did NOT go up as many people thought it would. Lots of factors relate to crime rates so its hard to say that concealed carry is the reason for anything. The same argument goes for OC. There really isn't enough data to say one way or another.
I thought I was pretty clear in my statement that said, "I can only attribute...", so I've highlighted the part that it's only an opinion.

[who dat]

Ok, and who does?

I think cowards and hypocrites are NOT the ones that best portray the typical gun owner.
:popcorn:

[Remasculated]

:popcorn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDYyv-iLmRY

[Done Deal]

Against department policy...



If it is so great, why do you suppose that would be?????

[Venator12]

I thought I was pretty clear in my statement that said, "I can only attribute...", so I've highlighted the part that it's only an opinion.

But you also said "One thing in defense of Concealed Carry is that in every state that has increased their number of concealed carry permit holders, the crime rate has gone down." I don't believe that is true, but was asking if you had a cite for it so I can read it.

[Done Deal]

But you also said "One thing in defense of Concealed Carry is that in every state that has increased their number of concealed carry permit holders, the crime rate has gone down." I don't believe that is true, but was asking if you had a cite for it so I can read it.

So, would you believe that "a majority of states" is the correct description of the progress made from reasonable concealed carry laws?

You can advocate open carry until you are blue in the face but....I don't ever see the majority of female firearms owners openly carrying.....can you disagree with that?

[who dat]

But you also said "One thing in defense of Concealed Carry is that in every state that has increased their number of concealed carry permit holders, the crime rate has gone down." I don't believe that is true, but was asking if you had a cite for it so I can read it.
For that question, read the FBI reports in the July 2008 NRA's America's 1st Freedoms magazine, page 55, right side.

More states are shall-issue. Shall-issue=more concealed guns. More guns=less crime. Therefore, more concealed=less crime.

May not be the most scientific, but that's why I said it was my opinion.:-)

[Venator12]

So, would you believe that "a majority of states" is the correct description of the progress made from reasonable concealed carry laws?

You can advocate open carry until you are blue in the face but....I don't ever see the majority of female firearms owners openly carrying.....can you disagree with that?

This isn't about CC vs OC, it's about making a statement and not backing it up with facts. You can argue until you are blue in the face that concealed carry or any carry has reduced crime, but the data isn't good enough to make that statement.

As for open carry, I don't see the majority of any sex openly carrying, just like I don't see the majority of people conceal carry. We that carry guns openly or concealed are less than 2% of the population in Michigan. Open carry is an individual choice, just as concealed carry is. I don't care what choice you make our position has been that it is legal to open carry with or without a CPL. We that open carry choose to do so for a variety of reasons, we also want to educate the public as well as the authorities that it is legal and that we are willing to stand up for our rights and not afraid to show the world that we are ready and capable of protecting ourselves and others, if we choose to, and we will not be intimidated by the police or the public in exercising that right. It takes more courage to open carry than it will ever take to conceal carry. The great thing about Michigan is that with a CPL you can do either. But always remember with a CPL the state has granted you permission to conceal, which is a privilege. With open carry it's a right recognized by the state and you don't need it's permission..

[who dat]

This isn't about CC vs OC, it's about making a statement and not backing it up with facts. You can argue until you are blue in the face that concealed carry or any carry has reduced crime, but the data isn't good enough to make that statement.

\
If the FBI crime stats show less crime, and ALL states that have increased their carrying population have shown less crime, isn't that adequate to surmise that more concealed guns (concealed being the operative word because the OC #'s are relatively insignificant) equals less crime? It sure seems good enough for the NRA.

[Venator12]

\
If the FBI crime stats show less crime, and ALL states that have increased their carrying population have shown less crime, isn't that adequate to surmise that more concealed guns (concealed being the operative word because the OC #'s are relatively insignificant) equals less crime? It sure seems good enough for the NRA.

No, because there are too many variable. Because one does not necessarily follow the other. Every one that drinks water will die. That's a true statement, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the water killed them, but I suppose someone might try to argue that it does.;-)

[Leader]

OMG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU drink WATER ??????????????????

I'm Sooooooooooooooo sorry .
You are gonna die.

[Done Deal]

We that open carry choose to do so for a variety of reasons,... we are willing to stand up for our rights and not afraid to show the world that we are ready and capable of protecting ourselves and others, if we choose to, and we will not be intimidated by the police or the public in exercising that right.



It takes more courage to open carry than it will ever take to conceal carry.




Courage you say......ok, if that is what you want to call it.....:crazy:

[Leader]

Random thought........... If OC is so dangerous & bad............ Why are police officers required to openly carry their service weapons when on duty?

Another random thought...... Why can't I take a police officers weapon "for my safety and his" while engaged in conversation with him?

[Done Deal]

Random thought........... If OC is so dangerous & bad............ Why are police officers required to openly carry their service weapons when on duty?



Uniform carry is a completely different matter....like comparing apples and oranges. But, since you are on the subject, those very same police officers take classes in firearm retention and have holsters that are typically far more secure than that of the average civilian because of the rigors and hazards of being on the job.

Again I will say....it is a mighty shitty feeling to have somebody in the crowd behind you trying to disarm you. How likely would that sort of thing be for a civilian carrying concealed?

[Garbo]

that is one of my biggest concerns, i sure dont want to OC in a crowd, i think i would find myself checking my sidearm more then anything

[Astrogiblet]

that is one of my biggest concerns, i sure dont want to OC in a crowd, i think i would find myself checking my sidearm more then anything


Yea.. and of course the second you put your hand by your gun then someones gonna scream or call the police or freak out.. And you've also committed a crime by touching your gun while OC'ing without a reason to touch it.. Because touching it can be misconstrued as threatening..

My OC holster has a strap that goes around the back of my gun with a VERY tight button.. in fact its so tight I would definitely not feel comfortable about how long it would take me to pull my gun out if I actually did need to use it..



-Brandon

[Astrogiblet]

Have another open carry question.. Is there any limit to how many firearms you can OC or even CC?

I can just imagine someone strapping 10 guns on their belt and walking around..

Or the Boston Legal where Deny Crane is fake running for president and they ask him if he likes guns and he pulls out like 8 of them from various places on his body and puts them on the table.. lol!


-Brandon

[Garbo]

Oh man lol, you just created another 5 pages on this and another issue that should be stickied itself. Maybe "Mr Linkage" could assist and post the links to the most recent discussions.

There is a debate about CC since it says concieled "Pistol" liscense. But for OC I guess its clear there wouldnt be any limit.

I will add that I spoken with many leo's regarding their opinions about it and I have never heard one say that they had an issue with more then one.

[Astrogiblet]

Ah, I always have the never ending questions..

Next I'll ask what handgun is best for bears! :P

-Brandon

[Garbo]

Or the Boston Legal where Deny Crane is fake running for president and they ask him if he likes guns and he pulls out like 8 of them from various places on his body and puts them on the table.. lol!


-Brandon

Or Tackelberrys love scene lol

Hopefully thats not before your time

[remingtondude58]

Next I'll ask what handgun is best for bears!

according to shooting times anything 41 mag or bigger

[Astrogiblet]

Or Tackelberrys love scene lol

Hopefully thats not before your time


Either thats before my time or maybe its something I never saw.. haha..


41 mag or bigger huh? Interesting..


-Brandon

[Garbo]

Police Academy,, I think part two was the scene but all of the first three are good,, they get cheesey after that. Rent em some day. 1 and 2 for sure.

[Astrogiblet]

Yea.. I think I've seen parts of some of those movies.. but never the whole thing.. Definitely on my list of movies to watch..


-Brandon

[Leader]

Yea.. and of course the second you put your hand by your gun then someones gonna scream or call the police or freak out.. And you've also committed a crime by touching your gun while OC'ing without a reason to touch it.. Because touching it can be misconstrued as threatening..

Please site an example of this happening. It sure sounds like the "blood in the streets" argument to me.
Also tell me why you don't think the same thing would happen if you touch your *Concealed* gun?

My OC holster has a strap that goes around the back of my gun with a VERY tight button.. in fact its so tight I would definitely not feel comfortable about how long it would take me to pull my gun out if I actually did need to use it..

The straps on my holsters have adjustments on them. If yours doesn't, I think I would get a holster that fits your gun properly or one that can be adjusted.



-Brandon

I use my .357 when I walk in bear counrty.

[PhotoTom]

Have another open carry question.. Is there any limit to how many firearms you can OC or even CC?

I can just imagine someone strapping 10 guns on their belt and walking around..

Or the Boston Legal where Deny Crane is fake running for president and they ask him if he likes guns and he pulls out like 8 of them from various places on his body and puts them on the table.. lol!


-Brandon

Oh man lol, you just created another 5 pages on this and another issue that should be stickied itself. Maybe "Mr Linkage" could assist and post the links to the most recent discussions.

There is a debate about CC since it says concieled "Pistol" liscense. But for OC I guess its clear there wouldnt be any limit.

I will add that I spoken with many leo's regarding their opinions about it and I have never heard one say that they had an issue with more then one.

Well...I don't think the topic of "how many" has come up in reference to OC before...that's a new one...

My reaction is...I don't think it's so much of a question about legality, but rather, weapon retention. Weapons retention starts with...your holster doesn't retain your handgun...YOU retain your handgun. You must be constantly aware of your handgun and your surroundings. You must use tactics to prevent anyone from "getting the jump" on you. You must use tactics and training to immediately take action to keep control of your handgun under attack. Retention holsters in and of themselves are NOT the means of retention, rather...they are an element of retention.

Here is a recent video from Battle Creek, MI (http://youtube.com/watch?v=KB81P0eyzhc). Watch it several times (you'll have to since it all happens so quick...which is a point in and of itself)...you will notice that the attacker has BOTH HANDS on the officer's gun/holster (while the officer's hands couldn't be any further away). It is an example of where that officer's training failed. It is an example of where the officer's retention holster bought enough time for OTHERS to prevent the man from successfully taking the officer's gun. Had that officer been alone, the man would have surely successfully taken control of the officer's gun...assuming the officer's training never kicked-in...in this scenario, the officer left his gun fully open to being taken by the attacker during the scuffle...and it could have cost him his life, along with others.

Now...ask yourself...how many plain view handguns do you want to carry AND control/retain at a given time?

[PhotoTom]

In case you miss it...here is a shot that shows that both of attacker's hands were on the officer's gun/holster...again...given just a moment longer, he would have defeated the retention feature(s) of the holster and would have had full control of the weapon...

609

[Garbo]

I agree there, but the issue of more then one has been batted around so many times even concieled so I was hoping a link or two could avoid another 5 pages on this thread to answer his question :)

[Remasculated]

I guess I missed that discussion. What’s the issue?

The instructor in my CPL class stated that one is allowed to carry as many handguns as they can properly conceal. In fact, he mentioned that in previous classes, he’s had another instructor walk into the room and ask class members to guess how many guns were being concealed on him. Nine was the correct answer.

My guess—one on each ankle, strong side belt, weak side belt, SOB, one in each front pocket, one in a rear pocket (wallet in the other) and shoulder rig (under a cover garment).

[Leader]

I guess I missed that discussion. What’s the issue?

The instructor in my CPL class stated that one is allowed to carry as many handguns as they can properly conceal. In fact, he mentioned that in previous classes, he’s had another instructor walk into the room and ask class members to guess how many guns were being concealed on him. Nine was the correct answer.

My guess—one on each ankle, strong side belt, weak side belt, SOB, one in each front pocket, one in a rear pocket (wallet in the other) and shoulder rig (under a cover garment).

Was your instructor implying that you MUST conceal your guns if you have a CPL ?
You DO know that is NOT true don't you ?

[Garbo]

In a nutshell Licenses issued after I believe it was 2002 or 1998 (very shady on the exact date but those years come into mind) Say concieled PISTOL License instead of PISTOLS. Leaving the argument open to the fact that you can only carry one. It was thrown around out here that there were a few prosecutors looking for a test case on that. But the concensus is among most including as I said literally all police officers I've ever spoken with that they could care less. But I guess it is an issue all should be aware of.

There may have even been an AG opinion posted out here but I'm no expert at searches so someone better at it then me will have to take the saddle for that one.

[Astrogiblet]

Please site an example of this happening. It sure sounds like the "blood in the streets" argument to me.
Also tell me why you don't think the same thing would happen if you touch your *Concealed* gun?

First off, I was not stating that as scientific evidence. I was stating what COULD happen. Also, I was not arguing OC was better then CC... I was just stating what I thought could happen.

The straps on my holsters have adjustments on them. If yours doesn't, I think I would get a holster that fits your gun properly or one that can be adjusted.

The strap on my holster is adjustable too.. but if you read my post correctly I said the BUTTON was tight.



-Brandon

[Remasculated]

Was your instructor implying that you MUST conceal your guns if you have a CPL ?
Yes, not only implied it, but said outright.

Later, in a different lecture, he said that guys who open-carry are nothing more than over-compensating, short-peckered, John Wayne-wannabes who hate authority figures.

Everybody in the class just laughed and nodded in agreement.

[Remasculated]

Seriously, though…he wasn’t implying anything of the sort. All he was saying was if you wished to carry concealed, you are not limited to carrying just one.

And, yes, I'm well aware that open carry in most places is legal.

[dougwg]

July 17, 2007

"Accordingly, persons properly licensed to carry a concealed pistol may carry more than one concealed pistol at one time."

Sincerely yours,
Carol L. Isaacs
Chief Deputy Attorney General

:getsum: :getsum2: :bird2:

[Done Deal]

Later, in a different lecture, he said that guys who open-carry are nothing more than over-compensating, short-peckered, John Wayne-wannabes who hate authority figures.



And what did he have to say about women that might want to open carry?

Aside from at a shoot or hunting....has anybody ever seen a woman open carrying that was not LEO?

[Hugle]

And what did he have to say about women that might want to open carry?

Aside from at a shoot or hunting....has anybody ever seen a woman open carrying that was not LEO?

Yes, but not in Michigan.

[RifleGuy]

Later, in a different lecture, he said that guys who open-carry are nothing more than over-compensating, short-peckered, John Wayne-wannabes who hate authority figures.
actually, I'm more of a Glenn Ford fan that John Wayne... oh, wait, um... never mind.

[Done Deal]

actually, I'm more of a Glenn Ford fan that John Wayne... oh, wait, um... never mind.


No kiddin....Glenn Ford never even got a syndrome named after him....

[Astrogiblet]

This threads been dead for a while..

I have another Open Carry question.. Is a tactical vest with a gun holster on the front considered open carry?

Like this one:
http://www.copsplus.com/products/large/bh-30vt25bk.jpg

I can't imagine it wouldn't be.. as its showing just as much as a belt holster would be.. but..

Oh and while we are answering my random 4am questions.. what about shoulder holsters (IE: underneath your arm type.. like miami vice)... or leg/thigh holsters.


-Brandon

[warlockmatized]

not sure about the vest. i would have to assume yes. as far as the other two, yes.

OC says holstered and in plain view.


This threads been dead for a while..

I have another Open Carry question.. Is a tactical vest with a gun holster on the front considered open carry?

Like this one:
http://www.copsplus.com/products/large/bh-30vt25bk.jpg

I can't imagine it wouldn't be.. as its showing just as much as a belt holster would be.. but..

Oh and while we are answering my random 4am questions.. what about shoulder holsters (IE: underneath your arm type.. like miami vice)... or leg/thigh holsters.


-Brandon

[Fred_Scuttle]

I'm a little shakey on this one for sure but I believe due to preemption that the individual municipality cannot make any laws more restrictive then what state or federal does. Someone much more knowledgeable on that would have to confirm that. I do know that it covers CPL holders but have to admit I dont know if its across the board.


Garbo,

I'm forgetting the specific name of the law sub-section, but you are right. State law is the final word ( aside from Federal - duh ) on Gun Usage in Michigan. Livonia or Novi can not make something illegal that Michigan allows. Also, they can not make something LEGAL that Michigan DISALLOWS.

Two edged sword.

Fred

[SADAacp]

Garbo,

I'm forgetting the specific name of the law sub-section, but you are right. State law is the final word ( aside from Federal - duh ) on Gun Usage in Michigan. Livonia or Novi can not make something illegal that Michigan allows. Also, they can not make something LEGAL that Michigan DISALLOWS.

Two edged sword.

Fred

MCL 123.1102

http://www.mppgv.org/Michigan%20Firearm%20Preemption%20Law.htm

[dougwg]

NightLine on OpenCarry.org

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIEzkXN1SYY

Full video here:

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=5249691

[Venator12]

Here are a few of the cities that members of Michigan Open Carry are OCing. The list is growing and I hope to be adding many more cities to it. The myth that open carry only occurs in the “sticks” is being dispelled daily. Most of these cities are in large urban areas. To Learn more about open carry see the info page at: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html

Allen Park
Alpena
Battle Creek
Bath
Bay City
Beulah
Big Rapids
Burton
Chesaning
Clio
Corrunna
Dearborn
Dearborn Heights
Detroit
East Lansing
Fenton
Flint
Flushing
Fowlerville
Frankenmuth
Garden City
Grand Blanc
Grand Rapids
Grandville
Haslett
Howell
Kalamazoo
Lake City
Lansing
Leslie
Livonia
Midland
Mt. Morris
New Lothrop
Okemos
Owosso
Paw Paw
Redford
Romulus
Saint Charles
Sault Sainte Marie
Saginaw
Standale
Traverse City
Westland
ETA Update Cities

[Venator12]

:colors: We are putting together orders for Michigan Open Carry T-shirts. This is a non-profit endeavor. Please check this link out to see the basic design (some minor changes) and to order. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13697.html


Thank you.
Brian

[who dat]

Page won't load.

[KayL]

I tried it earlier and it was fine. Just now it took about 10 sec.

[who dat]

It's ok now.

[matt17]

Whos the guy open carrying in East Lansing? That takes guts in that liberal police state.

[Venator12]

Whos the guy open carrying in East Lansing? That takes guts in that liberal police state.

That would be me. I have carried in a several places in East Lansing. But Mostly in the Biggby's. Below is a recent experience I posted at opencarry.org here. You can read the Michigan OC experiences that members post on-line.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/11799-8.html

"I'm having coffee sitting in Biggby's and on-line. In walks an East Lansing officer in uniform, but in an unmarked car. Walks by me and orders Coffey and leaves. Don't know if the staff called or the one other person in here called or if it was just a coincident. Not sure if he noticed me or not. He just walked on by and drove away. Time will tell if they come back. Perhaps ELPD has got it right."

[Venator12]

Page won't load.

The website was down for about a half hour. It's up now.

[Venator12]

Whos the guy open carrying in East Lansing? That takes guts in that liberal police state.

Not as much as when I OCed into the State Capital.

[Done Deal]

That would be me. I have carried in a several places in East Lansing. But Mostly in the Biggby's. Below is a recent experience I posted at opencarry.org here. You can read the Michigan OC experiences that members post on-line.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/11799-8.html



Well good for you. Some folks like attracting attention because they are carrying a gun.


I would not be among them.

[dougwg]

I would not be among them.

And THAT is your choice, which I fully accept and respect.

All that we ask is the same respect for our choices.

[Venator12]

Well good for you. Some folks like attracting attention because they are carrying a gun.


I would not be among them.

Thanks for the kind words. But FYI, I OC to prove that it's legal and to dispell the Myths that surround it. If I was going to be arrested for OCing it would be in the Capital, the capital police that talked to me knew it was legal, they didn't like me exercising a basic right, but they knew it was legal. I was not detained nor did they handcuff me or demand ID or search me. It was a learning experience for them.

I don't like any attention and would just as soon people leave me alone and let me go about in my daily life. I would like it to be as common for people to see as a cell phone. In regards to open carry in Michigan it is becoming more common as I and others that believe in it continue to educate and practice what we preach.

The event below was not organized by Michigan Open Carry, but by an independent group. Will OC become more common? Only time will tell.


http://www.wwmt.com/news/hastings_1351572___article.html/guns_banded.html


Video: http://www.wwmt.com/video/index.php?bcpid=1111405973&bclid=1137706675&bctid=1688292702 & http://www.wwmt.com

Channel 8: http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8733074

MSNBC: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25841132

Detroit Free Press: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008807250352

[Jaredl2055]

if you want mace or pepper spray Galls.com has a good selection of it and alot of other things heck they have a big can that looks like the one DOG carried haha I think they might have the ones that look like the tazers too

wow i have poor grammar

[Done Deal]

But FYI, I OC to prove that it's legal and to dispell the Myths that surround it. If I was going to be arrested for OCing it would be in the Capital, the capital police that talked to me knew it was legal, they didn't like me exercising a basic right, but they knew it was legal. I was not detained nor did they handcuff me or demand ID or search me. It was a learning experience for them.



So, please share with us what you believe that the police learned from the encounter.

[Venator12]

So, please share with us what you believe that the police learned from the encounter.

They learned that people will open carry at the capital, that lecturing and editorializing against OC is not in their job description. What I didn't relate is after the officer berated me in public for over 20 minutes, he left and came back after 10 minutes and apologized to me for what he had said. What happened while he was gone? I don't know, perhaps he reviewed the security tape, or was talked to by a supervisor, I leave that up to speculation. What he learned is that once he has determined that a person doesn't present an immediate threat, that what they are doing is legal he should go about his duties and respect that person for following the law. You know act like a professional, How's that, a very good learning experience if you ask me and you did. Done Deal are you an LEO?

Also the building manager learned something as well, also his staff and so did the other Capital police as well as the Lansing LEO's that heard about it later.

[Done Deal]

Done Deal are you an LEO?



Way back when....but, not in a long time.

That said, my perspectives come from years of off the wall experiences, some good, some not so good with some good people and some not so good from both sides of a tin.

Don't bother trying to figure me....I don't think like normal people do....

[Venator12]

Way back when....but, not in a long time.

That said, my perspectives come from years of off the wall experiences, some good, some not so good with some good people and some not so good from both sides of a tin.

Don't bother trying to figure me....I don't think like normal people do....
Good to know.

[Kimberguy1371]

Can we add Jackson County on here???

Here are a few of the cities that members of Michigan Open Carry are OCing. The list is growing and I hope to be adding many more cities to it. The myth that open carry only occurs in the “sticks” is being dispelled daily. Most of these cities are in large urban areas. To Learn more about open carry see the info page at: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html

Allen Park
Alpena
Battle Creek
Bath
Bay City
Beulah
Big Rapids
Burton
Chesaning
Clio
Corrunna
Dearborn
Dearborn Heights
Detroit
East Lansing
Fenton
Flint
Flushing
Fowlerville
Frankenmuth
Garden City
Grand Blanc
Grand Rapids
Grandville
Haslett
Howell
Kalamazoo
Lake City
Lansing
Leslie
Livonia
Midland
Mt. Morris
New Lothrop
Okemos
Owosso
Paw Paw
Redford
Romulus
Saint Charles
Sault Sainte Marie
Saginaw
Standale
Traverse City
Westland
ETA Update Cities

[Darth AkSarBen]

I have 2 Bersa pistols. One Bersa Thunder .380 and one Bersa Mini Firestorm in .45 ACP. So, if I walk along our street out here (I'm very rural in Allegan County) and I carry either of these pistols in it's holster on the outside of my garment, in plain view, then I would be legal in doing so?

What if I am on my own property (10 acres) and are in the back somewhere working or walking, is it concealed carry to be on your own property if in fact the gun were now under the clothing?

[KayL]

I have 2 Bersa pistols. One Bersa Thunder .380 and one Bersa Mini Firestorm in .45 ACP. So, if I walk along our street out here (I'm very rural in Allegan County) and I carry either of these pistols in it's holster on the outside of my garment, in plain view, then I would be legal in doing so?

What if I am on my own property (10 acres) and are in the back somewhere working or walking, is it concealed carry to be on your own property if in fact the gun were now under the clothing?
From MSP website:

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1586_27094-10953--,00.html (http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1586_27094-10953--,00.html)

3. Do I need a concealed pistol permit to carry my pistols while walking through the woods near my cabin in Michigan? If not, are there any restrictions on how or where the gun is carried?

MCL 750.227 (http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-227)allows you to carry a pistol concealed or not if you are in your own home or on your own property.

If you do not own the land, no license is needed to carry a pistol as long as it is exposed. However, should a person cover the pistol during inclement weather with a jacket or coat or get into a vehicle, the pistol would be concealed, and the carrier would place himself in jeopardy unless he possessed a concealed pistol permit. Per Attorney General's opinion #3158 dated February 14, 1945, a holster, in plain view, is not considered concealed. Department of Natural Resources regulations require a person to have a valid Michigan hunting license if in an area inhabited by wildlife, while in possession of a firearm.

[Darth AkSarBen]

Thank you Kay for the reply. I'm kind of a newcomer to Michigan carry laws, but not to pistols/revolvers in general. I come from Nebraska, where I was shooting a .44 mag at 18 years old. I like to tramp around on the property out back, but there are times I wish I had a pistol with me for when I am out that there is peace of mind in case someone came onto the propery, like my house, while I was out and there was no means to get back into the house to defend my self and my family, if it were a threat. This is really pretty country, and where I live so rural the chances are slim,but you never know who may have just done some crime and wandering the area looking for food, money or car, or other.

It is funny that I would need a hunting permit, just to carry on my own land, considering the weapons (short barrel SD weapons) and the fact that there are no game animals in season. *S*

BTW, when I went to the Michigan.org site I tried to go to the link about the Pistol Safety Training Course to find out more about it. But, the link is dead. Is there anywhere in this site that I can read up on the overview of the Pistol Safety Training Course?
Thanks!!

[spectr019]

In regards to the member who carries in E.L., I'm also from that area. Since I've learned that it is legal to obtain a license to conceal a pistol (which was quite awhile ago), I have become extremely conscious of whether or not people are carrying or not, and I find myself constantly looking around anywhere I am to see if somebody is OC. I have NEVER seen anybody OC (except LEO) in East Lansing or Lansing (or anywhere for that matter, but since I"ve lived only in this area for the past 23 years, I only feel legitamate in the Lansing area being my topic area). I definetely want to get one of the OpenCarry.org shirts and sport that around my area here.

[Venator12]

In regards to the member who carries in E.L., I'm also from that area. Since I've learned that it is legal to obtain a license to conceal a pistol (which was quite awhile ago), I have become extremely conscious of whether or not people are carrying or not, and I find myself constantly looking around anywhere I am to see if somebody is OC. I have NEVER seen anybody OC (except LEO) in East Lansing or Lansing (or anywhere for that matter, but since I"ve lived only in this area for the past 23 years, I only feel legitamate in the Lansing area being my topic area). I definetely want to get one of the OpenCarry.org shirts and sport that around my area here.

OC is not common, but is growing in popularity. I OC in East Lansing, mostly on the weekends while shopping or visiting some coffee shop. I generally have my 13 year old daughter with me. As for seeing someone OCing. One of the members on opencarry.org was told that by a clerk at checkout.."I
have never seen anybody do that"..he said "really, I come in here 3 to 5 times a week and I've been Ocing for 3 years." My point is that many people just don't notice it.

Another member at OCDO is in EL and we keep trying to get together for coffee to OC, but our schedules haven't meshed. If you are interested in meeting up with us PM me for details.

[spectr019]

OCing is something I would like to do sometime, if anything just to feel that I'm excercising a right I've been granted with. I understand that when you OC, the firearm has to be in a holster, but does the holster have to be on the hip? Can it be a shoulder rig?

[dougwg]

Placement of holster was not stated nor defined, only that it should be in a holster.

To be safe (IANAL) I would always carry in a holster and I care not what style it is, being a belt, hip, thigh, ankle or shoulder

[ghostrider]

Placement of holster was not stated nor defined, only that it should be in a holster.

To be safe (IANAL) I would always carry in a holster and I care not what style it is, being a belt, hip, thigh, ankle or shoulder
+1

It is recommended to use a holster if at all possible. A holster that covers the trigger guard is much safer than without.

[paulb]

Placement of holster was not stated nor defined, only that it should be in a holster.

To be safe (IANAL) I would always carry in a holster and I care not what style it is, being a belt, hip, thigh, ankle or shoulder

You missed one.... "pocket holster".

[PhotoTom]

You missed one.... "pocket holster".


Naaah...looks sloppy to have your pockets hanging inside-out...

:lol:

[dougwg]

You missed one.... "pocket holster".
Yes I forgot about that one....Should have known "Mr. Party in my Pocket" would bust me....:lolup:

[sullyxlh]

Is there anywhere in this site that I can read up on the overview of the Pistol Safety Training Course?
This might help ya...
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654---,00.html

[Darth AkSarBen]

Thanks, sullyxlh. Go there and click on the "Concealed Pistol Permit-Requirements to Obtain One" and THEN on that page. Then, #4 is link for "Pistol Training Safety Course". Click that and tell me what you get?
I was wanting to see what the course actually entailed for requierments.

[One of Many]

The MSP site gives a 404 error when trying to access the Pistol Safety Training page.

[Roger Roney]

....Can it be a shoulder rig?Maybe for a one armed person. :twisted: :lol: I think "your" arm would cover too much to be considered open/exposed. My understanding is that the gun/holster has to be nearly 100% visible.

Roger

[dougwg]

Sorry that is incorrect.

Given that example, we would all need to carry on top of our heads so it would be visible from 360 deg's, which is not the case at all.

Think about this.... If I'm carrying on my belt, in a holster on my right hip with nothing covering the gun and/or holster and you are standing on my left side the firearm is totally concealed from you with my body.

Is that CC or is it OC?

[Roger Roney]

Sorry that is incorrect.

Given that example, we would all need to carry on top of our heads so it would be visible from 360 deg's, which is not the case at all.

Think about this.... If I'm carrying on my belt, in a holster on my right hip with nothing covering the gun and/or holster and you are standing on my left side the firearm is totally concealed from you with my body.

Is that CC or is it OC?What does 360 deg's have to do with 100%? Your post is so ridiculous, it looks like you're trying to start another argument.

I based my "I think" comment on a prior discussion here where someone stated you should not even partially cover an OC, like with the bottom of a sweater or light jacket.

Another thing about shoulder holsters is unless it is absolute vertical, it is going to be sweeping somebody/something. CC'ing a horizontal rig is no problem, but I was very PO'd when a guy removed his jacket to shoot pins and I was looking straight down the barrel of a loaded .45!

Roger

[Leader]

What does 360 deg's have to do with 100%? Your post is so ridiculous, it looks like you're trying to start another argument.

I based my "I think" comment on a prior discussion here where someone stated you should not even partially cover an OC, like with the bottom of a sweater or light jacket.

Another thing about shoulder holsters is unless it is absolute vertical, it is going to be sweeping somebody/something. CC'ing a horizontal rig is no problem, but I was very PO'd when a guy removed his jacket to shoot pins and I was looking straight down the barrel of a loaded .45!

Roger

I have to agree with doug on this one. A shoulder holster would be more visible then a belt holster.
My question for you is....How is a shoulder holster under a shirt any safer then one over a shirt?
Have you EVER heard of someone being shot by a gun IN a shoulder holster & was it covered?
How about a gun in a glass case? You know....like at a gun shop? Lots of them pointed at you just below your waist.

[dougwg]

How in the hell do you get that I'm trying to start an argument? My god man I even said SORRY!!!!! and then gave a GREAT example of how that "arguement" is lacking in reason and therefore flawed!

Are some of you that THIN SKINED that you cry, piss and moan that "he's starting trouble" anytime ANYONE disagrees with you or SHOWS you how you are wrong?:bowdown:

So a piece of cotton covering a loaded .45 makes you feel safe? OMG talk about ridiculous!:confused:

Tell you what, next time I'm going to start "another" argument, I'll let you know, hows that? But untill then, THINK! :coocoo:

Nite nite. :thup:

[Roger Roney]

I have to agree with doug on this one. A shoulder holster would be more visible then a belt holster.Visible, yes, exposed or open, questionable. Most shoulder rigs (I have seen and used,) have the holster at "90 deg's" directly under the arm. As soon as one lowers their arm, a good part of the gun and holster is covered, and if "you're" built like a Sumo wrestler wearing a big loose shirt, the whole thing could disappear. :lol: The point is, this is a legal question of how much one can cover an openly carried gun before it is considered concealed. You OC guys are more up to date than I am, so, is what I stated above "....you should not even partially cover an OC, like with the bottom of a sweater or light jacket," true or false?My question for you is....How is a shoulder holster under a shirt any safer then one over a shirt?Where did I say it was? More "comfortable" maybe, as in out of sight out of mind. In the incident, he had his back to me when he took off his jacket, so it was pointing/sweeping me and two others as soon as it became exposed, and we had no idea where his hands were or if he intended to use that gun for pins. More PO'd about the "sudden" exposure than anything.
Have you EVER heard of someone being shot by a gun IN a shoulder holster & was it covered?....
How about a gun in a glass case? You know....like at a gun shop? Lots of them pointed at you just below your waist.And they're all loaded? :lol:

Roger

[Roger Roney]

How in the hell do you get that I'm trying to start an argument? My god man I even said SORRY!!!!! and then gave a GREAT example of how that "arguement" is lacking in reason and therefore flawed!

Are some of you that THIN SKINED that you cry, piss and moan that "he's starting trouble" anytime ANYONE disagrees with you or SHOWS you how you are wrong?:bowdown:

So a piece of cotton covering a loaded .45 makes you feel safe? OMG talk about ridiculous!:confused:

Tell you what, next time I'm going to start "another" argument, I'll let you know, hows that? But untill then, THINK! :coocoo:

Nite nite. :thup::coocoo: :rofl: Nice try. You answered your own question by making that post. How about answering my question(s) and quit twisting things by trying to put words in my mouth?

Roger

[Leader]

Visible, yes, exposed or open, questionable. Most shoulder rigs (I have seen and used,) have the holster at "90 deg's" directly under the arm. As soon as one lowers their arm, a good part of the gun and holster is covered, and if "you're" built like a Sumo wrestler wearing a big loose shirt, the whole thing could disappear. :lol: The point is, this is a legal question of how much one can cover an openly carried gun before it is considered concealed. You OC guys are more up to date than I am, so, is what I stated above "....you should not even partially cover an OC, like with the bottom of a sweater or light jacket," true or false?

I guess this is a semantics thing, I figure if it is more visible, it is more open. A belt holster goes undetected by most people most of the time & a shoulder holster is almost imposable to miss when worn on the outside of clothing. A gun worn on the belt and covered by a shirt IS considered concealed. If you cover a shoulder holster it also would be concealed.

Where did I say it was? More "comfortable" maybe, as in out of sight out of mind. In the incident, he had his back to me when he took off his jacket, so it was pointing/sweeping me and two others as soon as it became exposed, and we had no idea where his hands were or if he intended to use that gun for pins. More PO'd about the "sudden" exposure than anything.
....
And they're all loaded? :lol:

Roger

I fail to see how you weren't being "swept" by the mussel of the gun in the shoulder holster when it was covered & were when the guy took his jacket off.
.... Aren't *ALL* guns "loaded" all the time?????
You forgot to answer my question.
When was the last time you heard of a gun *IN* a shoulder holster shooting someone?

[Darth AkSarBen]

I was reading about open carry at the MSP site and the opinon is this:
" Per Attorney General's opinion #3158 dated February 14, 1945, a holster, in plain view, is not considered concealed."

In my logical thinking, the shoulder holster with all the belts and such, worn on the outside of the garments is probably the most visible holster one might see and as such would not be considered concealed. Keep in mind though, that shoulder holster, either 90 degree to body or paralled to body (muzzle down) were never considered for anything other than concealed carry. Open carry with the shoulder holster on the outside is probably, for all purposes, legal in the definitions of Open Carry, but it is certainly going to draw a lot more attention than a simple "IWB type of holster" or one that resides on the outside pants area, but is well secured.

Last time I wore a shoulder holster rig was in Seattle when I had a CPL there in that state. When I wore my off duty weapon in public, it was with a pancake holster, with my badge clipped next to it. Even at that, in some places I was questioned about my pistol, until the manager had seen my badge next to the gun.

Bigger question to be tossed around is if you had a shirt that covered the top of your pistol and only partly covered the holster, yet the end of the holster is visible. Is that concealed or open carry?

[KayL]

Bigger question to be tossed around is if you had a shirt that covered the top of your pistol and only partly covered the holster, yet the end of the holster is visible. Is that concealed or open carry?
Concealed unless you tuck the shirt in. It could be argued you were covering it with the shirt. CPL would be necessary if concealed.

[PhotoTom]

Is that concealed or open carry?

Well...that depends on what the definition of "is" is...

:thumbup:

HEY...it worked for slick Willie when HE couldn't answer the question!

[dougwg]

snip...Bigger question to be tossed around is if you had a shirt that covered the top of your pistol and only partly covered the holster, yet the end of the holster is visible. Is that concealed or open carry?

Lots of factors involved on this one.

Easy answer is BOTH! Depending on the LEO attitude and if you have a CPL or not.

Many will argue that if a reasonable person can tell if it is in fact a holstered weapon then it's "open". Keeping in mind if the gun and holster is fully covered by any opaque material (shirt) and you can't see the surface of the weapon or holster it's concealed.

This is the whole "printing" debate. BTW: "Printing" is NOT illegal, contrary to what you may have been told by a CPL instructor or LEO. The law says "covered" NOT "obscured outline as to diminish the recognizability" or something like that.

Basically, it's my opinion that if you have a CPL and want to conceal, conceal it properly so that people can't tell if you have a sidearm.

If you have a CPL and want to conceal but still let people "in the know" know that you have your sidearm then you should dress in such a way as to "print".
This might include a gathering of many gun nuts where the main topic is guns and there are no sheep around, like a picnic or GTG or a range trip, basically somewhere that hearing "hey what kind of gun do you carry" would not be out of the norm but rather welcomed.

Then there is open carry with a CPL which means OPEN and not covered in any way.

A sub-category of CPL-OC is Casual Open Carry, which basically IWB and partially covered as you describe in your post above.

Now on to NON-CPL

You better make damn sure if you're carrying that it is painfully obvious that it is a gun in a holster. I would NEVER suggest that someone without a CPL Partially cover there sidearm with a shirt or coat. BUT, my opinion is that a holstered sidearm carried inside the waistband would be ok as any normal person can plainly tell it's a gun and it's a VERY common mode of carry.

Even with all that said I will again say it "depending on the LEO attitude and if you have a CPL or not."

Oh, and it depends on if you have a chip on YOUR shoulder also because you can change the attitude of a LEO in your favor or against it. My advice, "BE NICE until it's time not to be nice." Quote by Dalton

[Darth AkSarBen]

Interesting point, Doug. Some years back ...many years back when My Cousin Rick and I were around Oshkosh, NE we usually carried openly, except the local Chief of Police was dead set against us carrying in public. I remember the time we went into the local restaurant, sat down at the counter on the stools and proceeded to order. We had left our pistols out in the vehicle, locked and only had on the holsters. The Chief wandered by and came by me and Rick and lifted up our shirts a bit to reveal empty holsters. Shaking his head. We never got into trouble about that but we knew where the line was drawn, locally. After he left, and new Chief took over, that idea was gone out the window. The new Chief would go with us out to shoot, and enjoyed shooting as much as we did, and got to know us pretty well. Since there was no official ordinance that made it illegal to openly carry a handgun or any other firearm, we were really not breaking any city ordinance. Just that former Chief of Police would have made it his pet goal of making our lives full of complications, if we didn't follow "HIS" set of rules.

Like you say, it can go either way, but the safe way is probably like you suggest, to never completely cover the firearm so it is always visible, or to have a CPL and always let someone wonder.:-P

[dougwg]

On a side note to this quote, "BE NICE until it's time not to be nice" :

I will add that, I will in most every case when confronted by LEO, give them 3 chances to be human. If THEY still choose to be dick headed about the subject at hand, I will ignore them or assert my rights to the fullest whichever is most prudent at the time with the given circumstances.

If they choose to be polite and respectful I will return the gesture in kind and even add a bit.

I will always be nice until it's time not to be nice. It is up to the LEO if this is a "good" encounter or a bad one involving lots of paperwork on both sides.

[Done Deal]

A cop might add that, they will in most every case when contacting a man with a gun, give them 3 chances to remain human. If THEY choose to be dick headed about the subject at hand, I will assert my police powers the the extent that is most prudent at the time given the circumstances. After all, I get paid OT for paerwork and, if dickhead is still breathing, any necessary court appearances.

I will always be nice until it is time not to be nice. Rest assured, when all is said and done, I intend to be the one going home at the end of the day.

[9277junior]

interesting discussion

[Venator12]

I intend to be the one going home at the end of the day.
As do I.

[dougwg]

A cop might add that, they will in most every case when contacting a man with a gun, give them 3 chances to remain human. If THEY choose to be dick headed about the subject at hand, I will assert my police powers the the extent that is most prudent at the time given the circumstances. After all, I get paid OT for paerwork and, if dickhead is still breathing, any necessary court appearances.

I will always be nice until it is time not to be nice. Rest assured, when all is said and done, I intend to be the one going home at the end of the day.


Thats fine, but keep in mind, if you overstep your "police powers" you're nothing but a criminal. :thumbup:

[Done Deal]

Thats fine, but keep in mind, if you overstep your "police powers" you're nothing but a criminal. :thumbup:

I have no police powers. I was merely providing the other side of the coin you presented.

But, do consider that police powers have a varying degree of discretion.

What do you think a cop will think of some clown that refers to him/her as a dickhead?

And then somebody says that they will be the one going home at the end of the day....well...maybe, and maybe not....unless they intend to prevent LE from making an arrest and then their freedom would be deservedly short lived, considering that there was an armed confrontation.

I will tell you this...as a civilian....the best way to make sure the confrontation doesn't get you a pass to the local jail or worse is to avoid the confrontation with LE to begin with. Or....send somebody else to make a name for themselves....

[dougwg]

I have no police powers. I was merely providing the other side of the coin you presented.

A cop might add that, they will in most every case when contacting a man with a gun, give them 3 chances to remain human. If THEY choose to be dick headed about the subject at hand, I will assert my police powers the the extent that is most prudent at the time given the circumstances. After all, I get paid OT for paerwork and, if dickhead is still breathing, any necessary court appearances.

I will always be nice until it is time not to be nice. Rest assured, when all is said and done, I intend to be the one going home at the end of the day.


But, do consider that police powers have a varying degree of discretion.
K

What do you think a cop will think of some clown that refers to him/her as a dickhead?
What do you think a legal citizen thinks of the cop that calls them a clown for exercising a RIGHT?

And then somebody says that they will be the one going home at the end of the day....well...maybe, and maybe not....unless they intend to prevent LE from making an arrest and then their freedom would be deservedly short lived, considering that there was an armed confrontation.
They initiated the confrontation under false pretense and without probable cause or reasonable articulable suspicion. (remember, we're talking about ME here and I will not be breaking any law while OC'ing)

I will tell you this...as a civilian....the best way to make sure the confrontation doesn't get you a pass to the local jail or worse is to avoid the confrontation with LE to begin with. Or....send somebody else to make a name for themselves....
And the fastest way for a cop to throw their career and livelihood away is to violate someones civil rights.

[dougwg]

Done Deal,

You sound very angry talking about a cop killing someone that is doing nothing illegal.

I'm not sure if you were really ever a cop but if you were, I must ask- were you kicked off the force or did you resign to save face?

[Done Deal]

Dougwg:

Do you even know what a parody is? I started right out saying "a cop might say" to specifically differentiate from your post where you said "I" referring to you. I said a cop....referring to a cop....and the other side of the coin.

As far as your other absurd comments....well sir....I am not even going to spend the time responding to your nonsense....you probably wouldn't get it anyway...:lol: :grin: :lol:

[dougwg]

Dougwg:

Do you even know what a parody is? I started right out saying "a cop might say" to specifically differentiate from your post where you said "I" referring to you. I said a cop....referring to a cop....and the other side of the coin.
Then it would be a good idea to use quotes, just like you did in this spew that you just typed.

As far as your other absurd comments....well sir....I am not even going to spend the time responding to your nonsense....you probably wouldn't get it anyway...:lol: :grin: :lol:
By saying that you're not going to respond, you just did. :moon:

[Done Deal]

Then it would be a good idea to use quotes, just like you did in this spew that you just typed.


A parody doesn't require quotes....try google.


By saying that you're not going to respond, you just did. :moon:

That would be a paradox I guess. You can wiggle your tush at the world and the world really doesn't care.


Impressive communication skills you have there....:clap: :laughing: :laughing:

[Roger Roney]

Concealed unless you tuck the shirt in. It could be argued you were covering it with the shirt. CPL would be necessary if concealed.Thank you, Kay. That is the same point I was trying to make with being covered by arm or shirtsleeve.

Roger

[Roger Roney]

I guess this is a semantics thing,...Agreed, and open to debate. The shoulder rig may be more visible, but is the gun & holster? ....If you cover a shoulder holster it also would be concealed.You're now agreeing with my first post(s) in this thread??? :lol:
I fail to see how you weren't being "swept" by the mussel of the gun in the shoulder holster when it was covered & were when the guy took his jacket off.Where did I say I wasn't? I definitely did not say anything about being swept by a marine bivalve mollusk. Where is that on a gun? :twisted: :lol:
.... Aren't *ALL* guns "loaded" all the time?????
You forgot to answer my question.
When was the last time you heard of a gun *IN* a shoulder holster shooting someone?No, I didn't;....

Roger

[quarterhorsemen]

Ok.. I wanted to post this on OCDO but I don't want to make another account for one post..

Lets see if I have this right...

I can open carry in MI as long as I am 18 years old? I don't have to have a carry license or anything?

Not that I would necessarily want to do this.. but it is interesting.


-Brandon

You can find all the information you need without a post, just visit the site opencarry .org then scroll down until you see all the states click on Michigan and look for open carry info here. It will give you access to all the laws you will need to know for carrying, I did a lot of research before I OCed and had fun learning while doing it.

[Done Deal]

You can find all the information you need without a post, just visit the site opencarry .org then scroll down until you see all the states click on Michigan and look for open carry info here. It will give you access to all the laws you will need to know for carrying, I did a lot of research before I OCed and had fun learning while doing it.


What a great first post on this board.....

I hope that you find this site as informative as you apparently find the other one that you directed a member to.

[Scoop]

I hope that you find this site as informative as you apparently find the other one that you directed a member to.:lolup:

[Raspberrysurprise]

Would you have preferred he copy and pasted everything from OC.org here instead of simply pointing him to the info?

[fbuckner]

God no we need our bandwidth for other things as well.

[Done Deal]

Would you have preferred he copy and pasted everything from OC.org here instead of simply pointing him to the info?

Honestly, a PM would have been more than sufficient.


As far as I am concerned....most of what is said on OC.org can stay on OC.org.