happened to me today!!! Nice cops though

[Kimberguy1371]

I just got home. About 20 minutes ago, i was standing in the pouring rain in hand cuffs, outside the Jackson Crossing Mall surrounded by four Jackson County Police officers.

It was 6:00pm and i was at the mall clothed in under armor basket ball shorts, Sandals, and a Corporal of Marines t-shirt. I did have my belt and uncle Mikes holster with my Kimber Compact CDP II. I picked my Fieance up from work(who had been robbed while working at the same mall while i was i Iraq a few months ago) we went to Best Buy and then to the dollar store to get some trash bags to drop off where she works. As we left the dollar store i noticed that one of the customer service reps was standing there watching me. As we continued to walk another one stared me down as he walked by me hand on his radio. As we continued to walk another CS rep in a suit yells out at me "HEY GUY!" i don't answer to it, he then yells out "Corporal of Marines!" I stop turn around nod and ask him what he needs. Standing far too close for comfort, he says "I have no doubt that you are legal with that thing, but it is mall policy that we do not allow guns in the mall except for uniformed police officers." "I have not seen it posted anywhere, i was not aware of that." I replied "well that is mall policy. The police have been called and we need you to leave." I informed him "that is fine i will leave but you guy do need to post that at your entrances" he continued "You can stay but then you can explain that all to the police" So I sent my fieance to where she worked and i went out to get the car. well i barely got to the door when the LEO stopped me. drew his weapon got me out of the car and put me in cuffs.
after he took my firearm to his car and my car was searched, i was un-cuffed, and waited in my car. he later came to my window let me know that i would be getting my weapon back but that i was in violation of my CPL. I let him know that this was not the case. and that Open carry was perfectly legal. he said he would have to check with his Sgt.(did i mention that this guy probably won't older than me about 23 or so. I kinda felt sorry for him having to deal with this) in the end thy put my pistol in the trunk and the Sgt and i talked a little, we both agreed that i was not in violation of anything, but he didn't understand why i would carry open, and he didn't care.

My fieance is pissed not because i was put in cuffs, but because the customer service guys who called the police on me, where the same people she called when she was robbed and they never called the police. So this mall will not let you carry a gun to defend your self and they won't call the cops when someone is going from store to store robbing them.
__________________

[dougwg]

Did you inform the officer of the danger of him drawing his weapon on you for legal activity? He could have been shot! :nono:

j/k, Glad it all worked out well. I bet the officer will act differently next time.

They didn't call the cops for her when she was robbed? Maybe thats NOT against mall policy....lol

[CyborgWarrior]

Did you give them permission to search your car?

[Kimberguy1371]

they never asked me.... they may have asked my fieance... and it was her car

[dougwg]

You need to post that here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/11799.html

[Kimberguy1371]

You need to post that here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/11799.html

It has been posted

[Imshootin]

Did you inform the officer of the danger of him drawing his weapon on you for legal activity? He could have been shot!

I sure hope you're not serious.

[sixhundredrr]

I sure hope you're not serious.



The j/k below that statement stands for 'just kidding.'

[Imshootin]

The j/k below that statement stands for 'just kidding.'
That's good. I thought maybe Doug was starting to slip off the deep end.:mrgreen:

[dougwg]

That's good. I thought maybe Doug was starting to slip off the deep end.:mrgreen:

I went off the deep end long ago:shock: :silly:

[appliancebrad]

I just told my wife about this and she said that she's then made her last trip into Jackson Crossing. We were just at Best Buy a week ago.

I'm not happy to hear this. I'd suggest contacting both Target and Best Buy managers and tell them how that the mall policy is keeping you from shopping in their stores. Both companies have national corporate policy in regards to legal concealed carry. IIRC though, BB does require you to conceal so I'd play down the OC stuff.

In the mean time, we'll be shopping elsewhere.

Edited to fix company name

[PhotoTom]

John R. Lott, Jr. on Mall "Gun Free Zones":
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315563,00.html

[Kimberguy1371]

Not to get into an argument, about it but by having a CPL it does not remove my right to carry open should i chose too.

I am taking my fiance to work tomorrow, and I'm going to talk with whoever is in charge a the mall, and find out exactly what the situation is. In the processes, I can stop by Target and I do believe you mean Best buy... (Circuit City is across the street.) and i can talk to them as well. I'll post the results and let you all know what was said. And if they hold to "no guns" then they will lose a once faithful client.

I just told my wife about this and she said that she's then made her last trip into Jackson Crossing. We were just at Circuit City a week ago.

I'm not happy to hear this. I'd suggest contacting both Target and Circuit City managers and tell them how that the mall policy is keeping you from shopping in their stores. Both companies have national corporate policy in regards to legal concealed carry. IIRC though, CC does require you to conceal so I'd play down the OC stuff.

In the mean time, we'll be shopping elsewhere.

[dougwg]

Not to get into an argument, about it but by having a CPL it does not remove my right to carry open should i chose too.
But not on Private Property

I am taking my fiance to work tomorrow, and I'm going to talk with whoever is in charge a the mall, and find out exactly what the situation is. In the processes, I can stop by Target and I do believe you mean Best buy... (Circuit City is across the street.) and i can talk to them as well. I'll post the results and let you all know what was said. And if they hold to "no guns" then they will lose a once faithful client.
Use a voice recorder



...

[fbuckner]

Yes record this so you dont miss a thing. I am suprised you were drawn upon at all.

[Kimberguy1371]

Is there anything very specific you guys want me to ask? I'm still pretty new to this, i have been carrying for 2 years and one of them was spent training for and in Iraq.

Yes record this so you dont miss a thing. I am suprised you were drawn upon at all.

[PhotoTom]

Is there anything very specific you guys want me to ask? I'm still pretty new to this, i have been carrying for 2 years and one of them was spent training for and in Iraq.

Well...break it down in your mind beforehand...

What problem do you have with what occurred?
- Be sure to separate "mall" doings and "police" doings

Presumably, you have an issue (or issues) with the actions of the CS Reps.
- What do you believe they did that was inappropriate?
- Why do you believe it was inappropriate?
- What would have been a better action, in your opinion?

Presumably, you an an issue (or issues) with the policy (or policies) of the mall.
- Why does the mall have a "no guns" policy (be sure to read the link I provided earlier...maybe even print that article and leave it with them)
- Is this policy posted? If not, how is anybody to know ahead of time? If so, why? (i.e., back to the previous item/question)
- How does the mall assure safety of their guests in light of putting them "at risk" with their policy (or policies)? Would it make sense for a go-cart track to institute a "no helmet" policy?

Ultimately, you were not charged with any crime(s) since you did nothing illegal.
- Did THEY learn anything from that?
- Will THEY handle a similar situation differently in the future as a result of this incident? If so, how?


Now...with all that said, are you planning to carry when you go in there today? I WOULD NOT ADVISE THAT at this point since you have been put "on notice" regarding their "no guns" policy...today, an immediate (and legal) arrest is a real possibility. Even without a firearm, you may have been "trespassed" (without condition), so if they feel uncomfortable with your presence for any reason, things could get ugly...real fast. Be careful!

Assuming you were indeed open carrying (your description of your clothing and subsequent statements lead one to believe so), clearly that is the "basis" for THEIR concern(s) and action(s). Were you within your legal right(s) in doing so? At face value, yes...but NOT if they do have a policy prohibiting weapons. Were they within their legal right(s) to summons the police in response to feeling "threatened" by you and/or your weapon? Sure! Understanding is a two-way street. It can be difficult to discern a "nut-job" that is planning to "make the news" by killing as many people as possible vs a civil, level headed person exercising their "rights" when such actions go against socially "normal" behavior. Be sure to see things from their point of view in all of this, too...

[who dat]

I just told my wife about this and she said that she's then made her last trip into Jackson Crossing. We were just at Circuit City a week ago.

I'm not happy to hear this. I'd suggest contacting both Target and Circuit City managers and tell them how that the mall policy is keeping you from shopping in their stores. Both companies have national corporate policy in regards to legal concealed carry. IIRC though, CC does require you to conceal so I'd play down the OC stuff.

In the mean time, we'll be shopping elsewhere.
There is no requirement to conceal when you have a CPL. Or do you mean Circuit City (CC) requires you to conceal?

[Scoop]

they never asked me.... they may have asked my fieance... and it was her carI thought you said your fiance went into work, and you were out @ the car, preparing to leave?

If so, then (barring an arrest) they would have had to obtain consent from you, not her, to search the vehicle. It doesn't matter who OWNS the car; it's about the driver/who's in legal possession.

Unless I misunderstood something about where she was ...

Sounds like they need to brush up on some current laws at that PD ... :)

[Done Deal]

Ah yes....another reason to advocate open carry....everybody needs to look down the muzzle of a firearm being pointed at you (great training).

But, since it was mighty hot....standing out in the cooling rain (albiet in cuffs) must have been sooooooo refreshing.

Even though the young officer maybe over did things a bit....considering all you went through, can you blame him for wondering why anybody would want to go through that by open carry in a mall....especially if they had a CPL?

Wow....what an adventure.....

I'll pass....thanks.

[Garbo]

I actually found it funny that the person OC was such a threat that the guy felt it necessary to call the cops then confront you (unarmed I assume). If I see a guy that is a threat that is carrying a gun and I am unarmed, heck even armed I'm not going to confront him and basicly say I told on you.

How much you wan to bet that location will be posted within the next week or two?

[appliancebrad]

There is no requirement to conceal when you have a CPL. Or do you mean Circuit City (CC) requires you to conceal?

I corrected my post above as I meant to write Best Buy. And yes, i believe that BB has a National Policy to follow local law regarding concealed carry but that they do request that one conceals their firearm. While i have no problem with open carry, I also have no problem with a property owner making that request as long as they do not outright ban my having a self protection firearm.

[Kimberguy1371]

I thought you said your fiance went into work, and you were out @ the car, preparing to leave?

If so, then (barring an arrest) they would have had to obtain consent from you, not her, to search the vehicle. It doesn't matter who OWNS the car; it's about the driver/who's in legal possession.

Unless I misunderstood something about where she was ...

Sounds like they need to brush up on some current laws at that PD ... :)

I was picking her up from work... she was in the car.

[Done Deal]

I actually found it funny that the person OC was such a threat that the guy felt it necessary to call the cops then confront you (unarmed I assume). If I see a guy that is a threat that is carrying a gun and I am unarmed, heck even armed I'm not going to confront hiw and basicly say I told on you.



No kidding but...sounds like the guy gathered up some courage knowing that the police were enroute. Besides, posted or not....how could LE take enforcement action if no employee had asked them to leave?

[Scoop]

I was picking her up from work... she was in the car.Operator or passenger?

[PhotoTom]

Operator or passenger?

As the registered owner of the vehicle...physically present and IN the vehicle (regardless of being in the driver's seat or in the passenger's seat...or trunk...at which point I'd think she'd REALLY want a search to be conducted)...she certainly had the option AND authority of consent in this case (less any personal containers HE may have had within the vehicle).

Presumably, youze don't agree with that...what contradictory case law do you have?

[Scoop]

Presumably, youze don't agree with that...what contradictory case law do you have?I didn't say that. I was simply trying to get a picture of the entire situation.

[PhotoTom]

I didn't say that. I was simply trying to get a picture of the entire situation.

Alllrighty then....just checkin! :)

Kimberguy1371 hasn't been back lately...hope he didn't get arrested when he went back! :help:

[PhotoTom]

...

[Kimberguy1371]

Ok, i have spent the last four hours at the Jackson Crossing Mall(unarmed) and I have talked to a lot of people in charge. None of which wanted their names sighted anywhere.
First, I went to the head of the entire mall sat down in her office and asked what the mall policies are. Needless to say they found out about two weeks ago that open carry is legal in Michigan and realized that shopping centers are not exempt from this right. So because of this new realization they are in the process of figuring out and printing signs that will not allow anyone to carry open, but still allow concealed carry on the premises. Their head of security(Ron Howard) is on vacation and will be contacting me on Monday when he returns. My intent is to try to see if possible that instead of banning our rights create some kind of program to educate people. We will see how things go next week.
She was very glad that i cam to them in a professional manor and explained the situation that happened yesterday. She will be talking to the Customer Service reps about it and how to more properly handle the situation... like talking to me before calling the police and creating unnecessary inconveniences.

Next I went to Sears. They were not 100% sure on store policies, and will be getting back with me as soon as they can. But their general consensus is that they follow state laws, and unless it becomes an issue they really don't care, (OC or CC) as long as you are within the law.

Best Buy, I was very impressed just with his responses. He seamed very happy and pleased to assist me and answer my questions. They are a separate entity form the mall and to his knowledge were completely ok with OC and CC as long as you are legal. Now he also asked me to call 888-BEST-BUY to make sure he wasn't wrong. I just got off the phone with them and I was given an "absolutely no fire arms what so ever", Period. When i asked about nothing being posted she said she would look into it. I also asked her if she could give me a reference to where Best Buy stated that policy, and she said it was on bestbuy.com. I was unable to find it.

Target. They are in the process of posting signs that LEO will be the only people permitted to carry firearms OC or CC in Target, whether this is chain wide or just Jackson County I do not know. Until then he said you can carry if you have proof that you are legal.

Kohl's seamed like she thought she was going to lose her job for answering the question. She disappeared for about 10 minutes and was apparently talking to the mall, cause she said she thinks that they just follow their policies, stated what the mall already told me and then preceded to tell me that she wasn't totally sure and gave me a customer service number. 800-564-5740 that turned out being a number for their credit card, they were very helpful but had no idea. Being that they are in Wisconsin.

TJ Max was the las place i went to and needless to say. He was very straight forward. "We follow whatever the state law is" and the he proceeded to lecture me on their no solicitation policy and that i ca not solicit information from him and took me outside to show me the extremely small sticker placed on the window at about hip level. I was not happy with him, but got the information i needed.

So there you go... any questions feel free to ask. Hopefully I'll have some good news after I meet with Ron.

[Kimberguy1371]

Alllrighty then....just checkin! :)

Kimberguy1371 hasn't been back lately...hope he didn't get arrested when he went back! :help:

:lolup: Nope, no encounter with the police today.

[bargalarg]

i dont understand why licenced and law abiding citizens are treated more like criminals than criminals. i dont understand when society turned pusy. if I saw anyone open carrying or knew they were concealing id feel safer. wtf is up with the mall saying that you have no right to protect them or yoursself in the mall? from what you described, anyone could load up on their favorite things and not be hasseled for looting the shit out of their store. correct me if im wrong please.

[Kimberguy1371]

Your pretty much right man.... i don't quite get it either. But such is life, and i knew that these things could happen when i started o open carry, especially in my home town if mostly liberal hippies...I guess it doesn't much matter that this is also the birth place of the republican party(that they took off our signs when you come into town.)

[ultrarider]

I don't have anything against OC, (your choice) but I think we need to take it at a slower pace when it comes to OC in businesses. IMO, if we push too hard/fast it could backfire on us and the businesses/malls may be quick to restrict any kind of carry at all on their property. That would be a step in the wrong direction. Just a thought!

[Roger Roney]

....he proceeded to lecture me on their no solicitation policy and that i ca not solicit information from him and took me outside to show me the extremely small sticker placed on the window at about hip level......What a twisted crock of BS on the normal meaning of "no solicitation." Does that also mean you can't ask the price of something, their store hours, if they're hiring, etc, etc.??? :lol:

Good work, Kguy!

Roger

[Scoop]

Alllrighty then....just checkin! :)

Kimberguy1371 hasn't been back lately...hope he didn't get arrested when he went back! :help:Specifically, I was going to ask if the officer had asked for his consent first (driver), and then deferred to the passenger/owner, after he found out she was the owner. Just curious, that's all.

[bargalarg]

LOL!

Ultrarider said "if we push too hard/fast"


:sex:

[Kimberguy1371]

Specifically, I was going to ask if the officer had asked for his consent first (driver), and then deferred to the passenger/owner, after he found out she was the owner. Just curious, that's all.

That would be a negative... granted if they ran the plates, and looked at both our IDs they would have know to ask her.

[Scoop]

That would be a negative... granted if they ran the plates, and looked at both our IDs they would have know to ask her.There's no requirement to ask the owner (if present) first. Typically, the driver would be asked (first), as you are the one that generates the RS for the stop.

No biggie, just wondering how it went down.

[bargalarg]

hey scoop, what is red ass? :wtf:

[Rolex Dr.]

I don't have anything against OC, (your choice) but I think we need to take it at a slower pace when it comes to OC in businesses. IMO, if we push too hard/fast it could backfire on us and the businesses/malls may be quick to restrict any kind of carry at all on their property. That would be a step in the wrong direction. Just a thought!


i have to agree with ultrarider

why push an issue too much, if you have a CPL keep it covered


we all know a vast majority of the population are sheep and are scared of the word gun

so lets all OC because the law says we can, let push, push and get all retailers to get pissy and post all the stores

if they do not have the know how to post the store that means we can carry concealed and NO ONE KNOWS

lets let sleeping dogs lay dont poke the bear

I understand and respect the "its my right" I do

heck I am a reserve LEO and i do respect it, and would love to see OC everywhere but we have to be realistic and baby steps

as a reserve LEO if I was working say a festival or what ever and I encountered a OC I can guarantee you my level of "awarness" (call it what you like) will be way up

it is kinda of like the fact that in Ontario it is legal for females to go topless, but you dont see every lady walking around with their tops off

HMMMMMMMM


time to go back to Toronto

[hud]

Open carry is the ONLY option for Michigan citizens to carry defensive firearms if they do not have a CPL. The primary difficulty with that is transporting without a CPL, which has to be done with firearm locked up, ammo not readily available, etc. But for those citizens without a CPL and no inclination to spend the money and have the fingerprints on file, they should be able to exercise the RIGHT without the illegal hassles expericence by this person and hundreds of others.

[Rolex Dr.]

hud you are 300% correct

but look at from a different stand point for a second

you and your wife (or who ever) are going to a certain shopping place you are pulling in the parking lot and see a guy standing at the trunk of his car putting a mag in a pistol and then putting it in a holster on his belt
(the reason he has to do this out side the car is if he does it inside it is consider concealed and against the law (if has has no CPL)

does your pucker factor go up, it should if it doens't well you are a better judge of character then I am

now do the same scene but be an off duty LEO, or military personal

I understand the entire my right to carry I do, heck I did it for a while it was not worth the hassle, IMHO

I just think we as a pro gun group need to be aware of the mere presence of a firearm makes SOME people uneasy

its like the not yelling fire in a crowed movie, not against the law just not the smartest thing to do

WHY push it get a cpl and be concealed

I know people want to carry right NOW but the wait is less now then ever before (hell I waited almost 1 full year from time I applied to time i got the permit (it was at the time all the freakin priests were touching kids and all people working near kids had to be fingerprinted


Just my $0.025

[Knimrod]

I just think we as a pro gun group need to be aware of the mere presence of a firearm makes people uneasy


The mere presence of a firearm doesn't make me uneasy.. The presence of certain people may make me uneasy however.

[ghostrider]

its like the not yelling fire in a crowed movie...No, it isn't.

[Rolex Dr.]

knimrod

i fixed it to say makes some people uneasy (my mistake)


ghost--- not flaming

but how is it different?? both are legal, both are not always the best choice

and yes both can get the police called and possibly detained, arrested etc

all depends on the circumstance


I am not trying to pick a fight just trying to understand why/how people get all bent and upset when they OC and people gasp and or call the cops

just because something is legal doesn't mean it is always mean its the best thing to do

[who dat]

you and your wife (or who ever) are going to a certain shopping place you are pulling in the parking lot and see a guy standing at the trunk of his car putting a mag in a pistol and then putting it in a holster on his belt
(the reason he has to do this out side the car is if he does it inside it is consider concealed and against the law (if has has no CPL)



Even a CPL holder can get caught up in this one. I came from a CEZ, so I had my gun in the trunk, unloaded with the mag removed. I stopped at my local liquor store, got out, opened my trunk, picked up my pistol, shoved the mag in, put it all in my concealed holster, and just had to laugh.

What if I had been seen by others in the parking lot(there were none), or by a customer in the store? This scenario is even an argument for getting rid of CEZ's because of all the loading, unloading, transport, and potential for problems.

[ghostrider]

...

ghost--- not flaming

but how is it different?? both are legal, both are not always the best choice

and yes both can get the police called and possibly detained, arrested etc

all depends on the circumstance...First, for the context of this discussion, we have to understand that any reference to “shouting FIRE!, in a crowded theater”, is in reference to times when there is in fact no such fire. It is expected that someone would call the alarm if a crowded theater were to suddenly catch fire. So, let’s just be clear on that.

Shouting “fire!” in a crowded is neither legal, nor a right. People often inappropriately use this analogy when justifying the usurpation of civil rights, and it’s wrong. People make this mistake because they don’t understand that shouting “fire” in a crowded theater is not a First Amendment right to free speech, and it never was. Shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theater is more comparable to actually using a gun to unlawfully harm someone else in a physical or threatening manner. An even closer comparison would be using the gun to threaten them into doing harm to themselves.

Our inalienable rights exist up to, and until the point that they infringe upon someone else’s rights. If you exercise your rights in a manner that directly puts the inalienable rights of others at risk, then it is no longer a right that you are exercising.

Example:

You have a right to listen to your music (of any kind) as much and as loud as you want. However, when you play that music so loud that it wakes your neighbor, who needs his sleep because he works nights, then in is not your right to do so. Your rights do not extend beyond his doorstep. If you want to play your music that loud, and not have the neighbor call the PD on you, then you’d better buy more land to ensure that your neighbors are a greater distance from you. That is your responsibility, and they are not obligated to participate in it.

Now, on to the “crowded theater” scenario.

It is reasonably accepted, more expected, that people want to live. They wish to remain alive, and not die. This yearning and desire to live is a natural trait to most mammals, and while there are exceptions among our specie, it is a generally accepted principal. It is also reasonably expected that if one is to remain inside a burning building, that there is a good likelihood that they will perish in said flames. Therefore, it is reasonable that if one were to suddenly become aware that they were at that moment residing in a burning building, that they would wish to exit post haste. The problem arises when that initial individual finds himself crowded into said building, with many other humans, who are possessed of the same desire to exit at like speed as that of our initial individual. It is also reasonable to expect that during such a crisis, some of those ill-fated individuals will become trampled to the extent that they are harmed, and even killed by their fellows, whose only desire is to live. Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theater (whether justified or not) will in fact place certain patrons in jeopardy of death, or great bodily harm. That is why there is no “right” to do so unjustified. The malicious intent is there, and the action is taken.

This is not so with a person openly carrying a handgun (the argument is the same with firearm ownership, for that is what the anti’s say). People may be fearful, or offended by a gun’s presence, but that doesn’t make it reasonable to expect that the object in question will bring about death, or great bodily harm. It isn’t reasonable to assume that someone is up to no good just because they have a gun on their hip, because law-abiding citizens walk the streets every day in such a fashion (again, this is an anti-argument) with little incident. It’s much akin to being fearful of the young (eighteen to twenty something) male with his pants around his knees, dressed in baggy cloths because one may think him a gangbanger. It’s no different that assuming that anyone who wants to carry a gun for SD is a “Cowboy, just waiting for the chance to play hero”. Both are forms of bigotry. The openly carrying of a firearm doesn’t even meet the “reasonable suspicion” requirement for an officer to detain someone, let alone compare to such a malicious act as shouting “Fire!” unjustly, in a crowded theater. With one, there is a clear and present threat to life, and safety; with the other, there lies no such threat.

[Done Deal]

The openly carrying of a firearm doesn’t even meet the “reasonable suspicion” requirement for an officer to detain someone, let alone compare to such a malicious act as shouting “Fire!” unjustly, in a crowded theater.

With one, there is a clear and present threat to life, and safety; with the other, there lies no such threat.


So, in the encounter that brought rise to this thread....are you saying that the responding officer was unjustified in drawing his weapon and placing the citizen in cuffs?

[Hugle]

So, in the encounter that brought rise to this thread....are you saying that the responding officer was unjustified in drawing his weapon and placing the citizen in cuffs?

Nevermind.

[Venator12]

I just told my wife about this and she said that she's then made her last trip into Jackson Crossing. We were just at Best Buy a week ago.

I'm not happy to hear this. I'd suggest contacting both Target and Best Buy managers and tell them how that the mall policy is keeping you from shopping in their stores. Both companies have national corporate policy in regards to legal concealed carry. IIRC though, BB does require you to conceal so I'd play down the OC stuff.

In the mean time, we'll be shopping elsewhere.

Edited to fix company name

I have OCed in the best buy in the Lansing area, with no problems.

[KayL]

I hace OCed in the best buy in the Lansing area, with no problems.
Did the greeter guy look at you strangely or say anything??

[Venator12]

i have to agree with ultrarider

why push an issue too much, if you have a CPL keep it covered


we all know a vast majority of the population are sheep and are scared of the word gun

so lets all OC because the law says we can, let push, push and get all retailers to get pissy and post all the stores

if they do not have the know how to post the store that means we can carry concealed and NO ONE KNOWS

lets let sleeping dogs lay dont poke the bear

I understand and respect the "its my right" I do

heck I am a reserve LEO and i do respect it, and would love to see OC everywhere but we have to be realistic and baby steps

as a reserve LEO if I was working say a festival or what ever and I encountered a OC I can guarantee you my level of "awarness" (call it what you like) will be way up

it is kinda of like the fact that in Ontario it is legal for females to go topless, but you dont see every lady walking around with their tops off

HMMMMMMMM


time to go back to Toronto

Sounds like you are the sheep by HIDING your weapon.

WHAT IS FREEDOM IF NOBODY USES IT?

We are just people that carry a weapon for self defense that are coming out of the closet. It's not for everyone, but the OC movement is growing not only in Michigan but nation-wide. On the website opencarry.org Michigan is currently third in registered members.

Check out this ABC Night line show and see the founders of opencarry.org.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=5249691

[Venator12]

So, in the encounter that brought rise to this thread....are you saying that the responding officer was unjustified in drawing his weapon and placing the citizen in cuffs?

ABSOLUTELY WRONG. It's legal to open carry, It's legal to wear a green T-shirt. If they pulled a gun on you and handcuffed you because you were wearing a Green T-shirt, this discussion would be different.

The original poster is 24 years old. We have found that the majority of interactions with police are with younger OCers. Not all the time, but often. Some LEO's feel more comfortable intimidating younger citizens.

[Venator12]

Did the greeter guy look at you strangely or say anything??

Not sure what you mean by strangely. But no, I most always ask the greeter where something is as I like to get in and out when shopping, hate browsing. But all the stores have different personnel and they can ask me to conceal or leave at their discretion.

Do I get stares when I OC of course, but not many, many don't notice. One of our members was asked by a cashier at a home depot in Owasso about it. She said see has never seen a person open carrying before. The member said really, because I'm in here almost daily and I open carry everyday. The point being, most people don't notice.

The only interaction I've had so far with an LEO was when I carried openly into the state capital building. They knew it was legal, they knew I didn't need to show ID or have a license to carry openly. One officer did express his opinion on the topic of open carry, which was inappropriate, his job was not to editorialize his personal opinions about anything, let alone a legal activity. After talking with the building manager on the legality of open carry he said he follows state law and will inform his staff of same. I was not detained, or handcuffed or draw on, overall a good encounter, except for the editorializing by the LEO.

[dougwg]

So, in the encounter that brought rise to this thread....are you saying that the responding officer was unjustified in drawing his weapon and placing the citizen in cuffs?

Yes, the responding officer was unjustified in drawing his weapon and placing the citizen in cuffs.

Clearly

[PhotoTom]

ABSOLUTELY WRONG. It's legal to open carry, It's legal to wear a green T-shirt. If they pulled a gun on you and handcuffed you because you were wearing a Green T-shirt, this discussion would be different.

Officer safety...green shirts are not known to be a threat to officer safety.
Action trumps reaction.

You are in the process of changing the perception of "abnormality" that occurs in the eyes of the public and law enforcement when an openly carried handgun is observed/noticed. During that time, it is reasonable to expect that you may be greeted with concerns or maybe even a given level of fear on the part of others (including LEOs). It is reasonable to expect that they may take precautions to assure their safety until they can "sort-out" what is going on. Now, if EVERY TIME the same officer responds, they do the same thing...even after knowing who you are and what you're doing...THEN I'd agree that it is inappropriate and maybe even harassment. But the first encounter??? Please...

[PhotoTom]

Yes, the responding officer was unjustified in drawing his weapon and placing the citizen in cuffs.

Clearly

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showpost.php?p=256010&postcount=57

[dougwg]

Do you think the officer would have responded as he did if he was properly informed of the law regarding OC?

[PhotoTom]

Do you think the officer would have responded as he did if he was properly informed of the law regarding OC?

There is no law regarding OC except for the firearms-free areas (handgun or long gun, regardless of "carry mode") as found in MCL 750.234d.

But, to answer your question...it depends...depends on the call for service (what was said)...depends on if he just came back in service after having had a "close-call" with a "man with a gun"...depends on....

[Kimberguy1371]

Yes, the responding officer was unjustified in drawing his weapon and placing the citizen in cuffs.

Clearly

I agree and disagree with you. Should I have been encountered by the LEO first, i agree there was absolutely no reason for me to be drawn on or cuffed. but, I was by that time in my car, leaving, I am giving the LEO the benefit of the doubt that what he knew is there is a Mexican, in a green Marine Corps T shirt walking around the mall with a gun. The LEO has heard this third person, customer Service, who saw me who talked to the 911 operator who relaid it to the LEO... so who knows what information that may have been given to him prior to his arrival. Not only that, I was leaving, now this is because i was asked to leave, I should have stayed and waited for the police, that was my mistake. But none the less in their eyes, i was running away. Only criminals need to run right? Being a Marine, with what I know and my training, I would have done the same.

On the other hand once he asked me for my CPL(or CCW as he called it) I should not have had to stand in a down pour while he went to run my ID and my pistol serial number...

that is my very confusing view. In short, in his situation, with limited information, right or wrong i probably would have done most of that the same way.

[dougwg]

I'm sorry, maybe I didn't state that question properly. I will try again.

Do you think the officer would have responded as he did if he was properly informed that openly carrying a firearm in a holster while doing nothing else that might be illegal was perfectly legal?

[KayL]

Do I get stares when I OC of course, but not many, many don't notice. ....The point being, most people don't notice.
I prefer concealed, but gosh, this sounds very intriguing. I'm in your area and there are some places I would consider OCing, but not most places I frequent. I'm not a confrontational person and would not enjoy having to go through that type of encounter, and don't want to have to worry about whether I'll be home in time to start dinner because I'm in jail!


But, to answer your question...it depends...depends on the call for service (what was said)...depends on if he just came back in service after having had a "close-call" with a "man with a gun"...depends on....
And having to deal with this will require the use of Depends!

[PhotoTom]

I'm sorry, maybe I didn't state that question properly. I will try again.

Do you think the officer would have responded as he did if he was properly informed that openly carrying a firearm in a holster while doing nothing else that might be illegal was perfectly legal?

Sorry...I slipped-in an edit on ya as you were typing your response...here ya go:

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showpost.php?p=256017&postcount=60

[dougwg]

I just saw that, np.

But I do think things may have happened differently if the officer was more informed. Also, it would help if the 911 operators got some info too.

[PhotoTom]

I just saw that, np.

But I do think things may have happened differently if the officer was more informed. Also, it would help if the 911 operators got some info too.

I agree...and, in this case...mission accomplished. That officer just got some on-the-job training (otherwise known as experience) relating to the matter. Which...brings me right back to my previous point:

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showpost.php?p=256010&postcount=57

[Kimberguy1371]

I'm sorry, maybe I didn't state that question properly. I will try again.

Do you think the officer would have responded as he did if he was properly informed that openly carrying a firearm in a holster while doing nothing else that might be illegal was perfectly legal?

If they were properly informed I believe that they should have responded by either informing the callers that there was no law being broken, and not show up, or show up and set things straight. But this also requires educated LEOs... How much can we really ask for?

[Hugle]

Ok. Here we go. I was a member of that department for a few years. They were, and since then, have been given Legal Updates from one of the Prosecutors in the County about CPL laws and general firearm laws. Here is what you need to do:
1) Talk to Rich, at the office first. If you don not get any satisfaction,
2) Request to speak to Matt Heins. Chief. He is level headed and WILL investigate the situation for you. He may request you to fill out an Official Complaint form(they are at the front desk).OR,
3) Go to the Courthouse and talk to one of the 12 Prosecutors there. Surely one of them will speak to you.

While doing any of these steps, don't get into the OC/CC debate with them. Stay on course as far as the initial call, the R/O response to YOUR actions, and what ever else may have transpired. Take notes, etc. Good Luck.

[ultrarider]

LOL!

Ultrarider said "if we push too hard/fast"


:sex:

Say something intelligent or go away!

[Kimberguy1371]

Ok. Here we go. I was a member of that department for a few years. They were, and since then, have been given Legal Updates from one of the Prosecutors in the County about CPL laws and general firearm laws. Here is what you need to do:
1) Talk to Rich, at the office first. If you don not get any satisfaction,
2) Request to speak to Matt Heins. Chief. He is level headed and WILL investigate the situation for you. He may request you to fill out an Official Complaint form(they are at the front desk).OR,
3) Go to the Courthouse and talk to one of the 12 Prosecutors there. Surely one of them will speak to you.

While doing any of these steps, don't get into the OC/CC debate with them. Stay on course as far as the initial call, the R/O response to YOUR actions, and what ever else may have transpired. Take notes, etc. Good Luck.

Please forgive my ignorance, but I guess I'm not completely understanding what you getting at as far as what i should talk to them about.

[Done Deal]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I guess I'm not completely understanding what you getting at as far as what i should talk to them about.

Why they made you stand in the rain??????:wink:


Maybe the cop used to be a squid....

[Kimberguy1371]

Why they made you stand in the rain??????:wink:


Maybe the cop used to be a squid....
Oh thank you...I got a wonderful laugh out of that!

[lee]

After reading this entire thread I have a possible suggestion. How about using the MCOLES---Michigan coalition of law enforcement standards system to help educate LEOS in Michigan about OC. I believe this is the organization that gives certification to LEOS in Michigan by setting up standards for training and conduct. I believe one of the purposes for MCOLES was to be "policing the police". As I have read, the policing function has pretty much failed.

Note: I have not researched this info ----------its just what I heard and may be dated. Just a thought for one who has more time than I to look into it.

[The Tackman]

I lived in Leslie for about 7yrs. I hated going to the Mall in Jackson. I live in Georgia now and down here we have a Georgia Firearm License that is good for cc/oc.

[Kimberguy1371]

I lived in Leslie for about 7yrs. I hated going to the Mall in Jackson. I live in Georgia now and down here we have a Georgia Firearm License that is good for cc/oc.

So your CPL actually specifies that is is for open or concealed carry?

[The Tackman]

So your CPL actually specifies that is is for open or concealed carry?
The Georgia code doesn't specify between OC/CC.

[Venator12]

The Georgia code doesn't specify between OC/CC.

Nor does ours, that's why open carry is legal with or witout a CPL, the issue is ease of transporting the handgun with a CPL.

[Venator12]

After reading this entire thread I have a possible suggestion. How about using the MCOLES---Michigan coalition of law enforcement standards system to help educate LEOS in Michigan about OC. I believe this is the organization that gives certification to LEOS in Michigan by setting up standards for training and conduct. I believe one of the purposes for MCOLES was to be "policing the police". As I have read, the policing function has pretty much failed.

Note: I have not researched this info ----------its just what I heard and may be dated. Just a thought for one who has more time than I to look into it.

I asked the MSP academy instructors what they teach about open carry. They responded that they do have a section on this topic. I asked to see the material they used. He never got back to me with that request. So at least the MSP are covering this topic. MCOLES would be another route, I will contact them in this regard.

[Jim Simmons]

I asked the MSP academy instructors what they teach about open carry. They responded that they do have a section on this topic. I asked to see the material they used. He never got back to me with that request. So at least the MSP are covering this topic. MCOLES would be another route, I will contact them in this regard.

Good luck with that. For three years after "shall issue" first passed, I repeatedly tried to contact them, suggesting that a uniform protocol be established for LEOs interacting with lawful CPL holders -- especially for traffic stops. Never got word one in response.

[Hugle]

I asked the MSP academy instructors what they teach about open carry. They responded that they do have a section on this topic. I asked to see the material they used. He never got back to me with that request. So at least the MSP are covering this topic. MCOLES would be another route, I will contact them in this regard.
Who did you talk to, and when?

[Hugle]

Good luck with that. For three years after "shall issue" first passed, I repeatedly tried to contact them, suggesting that a uniform protocol be established for LEOs interacting with lawful CPL holders -- especially for traffic stops. Never got word one in response.
They have been teaching it in re-tread school since 2002. Also, there has only been one Academy since the Shall issue, and by chance it started 4 years ago today, but I try to not think about it anymore.... :(

[The Tackman]

Nor does ours, that's why open carry is legal with or witout a CPL, the issue is ease of transporting the handgun with a CPL.

As of July 1st in Georgia as long as a person is eligible for the GFL they can carry in the car without a permit. A GFL is required to OC/CC if you're somewhere besides the home or work(owner must grant permission).

[endoracing]

Maybe I'm just crazy, but half of the advantage to concealed carry comes from the fact that no one knows who could have a firearm. Why would I want to advertise to everyone that there is a loaded firearm on my hip? That just increases your chance of confrontation and, marine or not, the risk of someone disarming you and in the process arming themself. But hey, thats just me ..

[dougwg]

myth

[sailorwatson]

Maybe the cop used to be a squid....

I certainly hope you are referring to sea creatures with tentacles and not the sea creature with 2 legs.. :grin:

[Venator12]

Who did you talk to, and when?

email response on 5/30/08 From:

Sgt. Jeff Munoz
Ordnance and Marksmanship Unit
Training Division
(517) 322-6349

[Kimberguy1371]

I certainly hope you are referring to sea creatures with tentacles and not the sea creature with 2 legs.. :grin:
Still active Watson?

NVM I just checked out your profile.

we are not so different, you and I.

[MINISFORME]

Hey KimberGuy, did the Law Enforcement Officer ask you for your firearm safety inspection card (green card) for the handgun you were OC at the time of this incident??
Just wondering cause we have had that topic discussed here on whether a CPL holder has to carry the "green card" while carrying concealed.

Jeff

[ColonelKurtz]

Kimberguy.... you served in Iraq and have to put up with this crap in Jackson?? So stupid.

[Neophyte]

Got stopped for a speeding violation on Middlebelt last month. (Livonia Police -just north of the New Wonderland mall next to the Ford Plant SB. It IS a posted rigid 6 lane 40mph rd. Watch it ! ) After some brisque questioning I was asked why I had not told the officer I had a CPL after I was stopped. I told him I did not. He said not according to his information I did. He said I came up positive on his data base. I had APPLIED 3 days BEFORE at the Wayne County Sherrif and was told it would take 3 to 4 MONTHS before it would be reviewed by the Gun Board. After 10 minutes and a few phone calls he confirmed what I had said to be the truth.
What happened here ? There could have been a hellva fine with the CPL issue.

BTW: A speeding ticket for 1-5MPH over the limit in LIVONIA is $105.00 (2 pts)

[ghostrider]

Got stopped for a speeding violation on Middlebelt last month. (Livonia Police -just north of the New Wonderland mall next to the Ford Plant SB. It IS a posted rigid 6 lane 40mph rd. Watch it ! ) After some brisque questioning I was asked why I had not told the officer I had a CPL after I was stopped. I told him I did not. He said not according to his information I did. He said I came up positive on his data base....
Doesn't matter, If you aren't carrying concealed at the time, you are not required to inform.

[PhotoTom]

Got stopped for a speeding violation on Middlebelt last month. (Livonia Police -just north of the New Wonderland mall next to the Ford Plant SB. It IS a posted rigid 6 lane 40mph rd. Watch it ! ) After some brisque questioning I was asked why I had not told the officer I had a CPL after I was stopped. I told him I did not. He said not according to his information I did. He said I came up positive on his data base. I had APPLIED 3 days BEFORE at the Wayne County Sherrif and was told it would take 3 to 4 MONTHS before it would be reviewed by the Gun Board. After 10 minutes and a few phone calls he confirmed what I had said to be the truth.
What happened here ? There could have been a hellva fine with the CPL issue.

BTW: A speeding ticket for 1-5MPH over the limit in LIVONIA is $105.00 (2 pts)


This is a splinter topic (hijack), but...

When a LEO runs your name, the LEIN query response comes back with any of the following, as applicable for CPL applicants:
"Applied for Concealed Pistol Permit"
"Approved Concealed Pistol Permit"
"Expired Concealed Pistol Permit"
"Revoked Concealed Pistol Permit"
"Denied Concealed Pistol Permit".

As soon as the State gets your fingerprint search request (when applying for a CPL), your in the system as having applied for a CPL.

If the officer had never seen the "Applied for" response before (or glanced at it quickly), he may not have recognized the difference between that and the "Approved" response.

And yes...it was all a moot point since you were not (presumably) carrying at the time of the stop anyway...

MCL 28.425f, subsection 3:
(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

A nice (polite) letter to Chief Stevenson advising him of the officer's need for improved training (the officer's name is on the citation) regarding the latter would be an outstanding service to others in or passing through the community. It's a shame that there are still officers that don't understand the disclosure conditions/terms/LAW...

[Kimberguy1371]

Hey KimberGuy, did the Law Enforcement Officer ask you for your firearm safety inspection card (green card) for the handgun you were OC at the time of this incident??
Just wondering cause we have had that topic discussed here on whether a CPL holder has to carry the "green card" while carrying concealed.

Jeff

No, he never asked for it. I believe that he did run it to make sure it belonged to me(which shouldn't matter because I can borrow my friends firearms.) From what I understand there is no requirement as far as the green card goes.

[Kimberguy1371]

Kimberguy.... you served in Iraq and have to put up with this crap in Jackson?? So stupid.
I don't expect to be treated any different...just because i have been over there doesn't mean people understand current firearm laws

[sailorwatson]

Still active Watson?

NVM I just checked out your profile.

we are not so different, you and I.

Not since August 1973. :smile:

[Darth AkSarBen]

No, he never asked for it. I believe that he did run it to make sure it belonged to me(which shouldn't matter because I can borrow my friends firearms.) From what I understand there is no requirement as far as the green card goes.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was of the understanding that you cannot loan or borrow a pistol from another person in this state? I was a Deputy for 8 years in Nebraska and weapon loaning/borrowing is quite common there.
On the back of my registration card it reads :" State law prohibits the furnishing, loaning, giving or selling of this pistol to another unless that person (including gun dealers) first obtains a license to purchase a pistol. Violation of this law is a criminal offense."

With the recent news you hear on the television about some guy shooting church members, or another shooting students, or another shooting in a mall in Omaha, it makes seeing someone, who is lawfully carrying a pistol, "OC" kind of a "wonder if..." situation. They don't know us from Adam. To check out a person that has been reported as "with a gun" is part of being caution to a T. But drawing on someone breaks handgun rule #4 in that you never point a firearm at something you do not wish to destory....something on those lines. The law enforcement officer was being cautious. The store personnel were being "jerks" for lack of better word in here. Heck, I was once asked to leave a McDonald's restaurant in Ogallala, NE when I was carrying my off duty weapon,but the manager noticed the badge next to it and quickly backed away. I think he was going to ask me to leave or remove the weapon from the restaurant. Their logic doesn't sink in that anyone armed in their establishment, lessens the chance of a grave encounter with robbery, and or someone gone over the deep end.

Now I'm looking to get a CPL for my self here in Michigan. I firmly believe that what they don't know won't bother them. I want it for ME, MY protection MY family protection, and not them.

[Joeywhat]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was of the understanding that you cannot loan or borrow a pistol from another person in this state? I was a Deputy for 8 years in Nebraska and weapon loaning/borrowing is quite common there.
On the back of my registration card it reads :" State law prohibits the furnishing, loaning, giving or selling of this pistol to another unless that person (including gun dealers) first obtains a license to purchase a pistol. Violation of this law is a criminal offense."


If the person accepting the loaned pistol has a CPL it is OK. I believe your green cards state this on the back.

[Kimberguy1371]

If the person accepting the loaned pistol has a CPL it is OK. I believe your green cards state this on the back.

I do not believe the green card mention that it is actually a fairly new deal that people with a CPL and in fact borrow handguns from their friend and family. I like it a lot simply because if I want a new carry gun I can borrow it for a few weeks form some one and see how I like it. :shiner: Just don't do it with out a CPL! :nono:

[Darth AkSarBen]

I do not believe the green card mention that it is actually a fairly new deal that people with a CPL and in fact borrow handguns from their friend and family. I like it a lot simply because if I want a new carry gun I can borrow it for a few weeks form some one and see how I like it. :shiner: Just don't do it with out a CPL! :nono:

You may be quite right about the CPL and pistol borrowing. Seems there are a lot more "Priveledges" associated with it, besides being able to buy a pistol on the spot, gunshop, dealer or trade show. I just know on the back of my card it address the issue of loaning, and it would appear that I cannot even loan my pistol to my wife if she wanted to take it with her on a walk. If we both had CPL that would be a different story. Without the CPL I would be in violation.

[Kimberguy1371]

If we both had CPL that would be a different story. Without the CPL I would be in violation.

Correct.

The person borrowing is the only one who must have a permit.

[Joeywhat]

I do not believe the green card mention that it is actually a fairly new deal that people with a CPL and in fact borrow handguns from their friend and family. I like it a lot simply because if I want a new carry gun I can borrow it for a few weeks form some one and see how I like it. :shiner: Just don't do it with out a CPL! :nono:

Just checked and it is stated on the registration cards.

[Kimberguy1371]

Just checked and it is stated on the registration cards.

Thank you. I didn't feel like driving to go check. So don't lend out your pistol unless the borrower has a CPL!!!!!

[spectr019]

Doesn't matter, If you aren't carrying concealed at the time, you are not required to inform.

I am under the belief that if you are a CCW/CPL (what have you) holder and you are pulled over/confronted by a LEO, you HAVE to inform them that you are a CCW holder and you HAVE to inform the officer whether you ARE or ARE NOT carrying.

[PhotoTom]

I am under the belief that if you are a CCW/CPL (what have you) holder and you are pulled over/confronted by a LEO, you HAVE to inform them that you are a CCW holder and you HAVE to inform the officer whether you ARE or ARE NOT carrying.

That's good practice (and the safest thing to do), but it is NOT required by law. I cited the applicable law in post #92:
http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showpost.php?p=261826&postcount=92

[Kimberguy1371]

Photo tom is right... Me, I do it regardless... my CPL is hanging outside the window, both my hands visible. The LEO already knows if you have a CPL(as long as you are driving your car) so why leave him to worry at all. I feel it just makes things smoother and easier.

[Darth AkSarBen]

There were a few times I had stopped a vehicle for speeding when I was a Deputy back in Nebraska, even at night, where the person driving would have his pistol on the seat or on the dash and as I came up to the window he would explain that he had a pistol in the vehicle. I always thanked them and told them I appreciated that info. Some even ask me if I wanted to take it back to the vehicle with me, and I said, "no, just leave it there where it is, that's fine".
I'd write the summon if needed or warning and return to the vehicle. I never felt threatened by the fact that they had the gun there with them. THEY were honest with me and wanted to show me that they wanted to be on the up and up, and that meant a lot to me. When asked how I felt about it later, I told my friends that it was more comfortable knowing they had it, and explained it. It would be the ones that might hide that info from me that would have made me a lot more nervous. I saw no need to take the weapon, as it was a known and apparently from a law abiding citizen.
Just my 2 cents.

[dougwg]

There were a few times I had stopped a vehicle for speeding when I was a Deputy back in Nebraska, even at night, where the person driving would have his pistol on the seat or on the dash and as I came up to the window he would explain that he had a pistol in the vehicle. I always thanked them and told them I appreciated that info. Some even ask me if I wanted to take it back to the vehicle with me, and I said, "no, just leave it there where it is, that's fine".
I'd write the summon if needed or warning and return to the vehicle. I never felt threatened by the fact that they had the gun there with them. THEY were honest with me and wanted to show me that they wanted to be on the up and up, and that meant a lot to me. When asked how I felt about it later, I told my friends that it was more comfortable knowing they had it, and explained it. It would be the ones that might hide that info from me that would have made me a lot more nervous. I saw no need to take the weapon, as it was a known and apparently from a law abiding citizen.
Just my 2 cents.

Sorry off topic but I would think that the same could be said for a LEO seeing someone OC'ing. The person is honest and not trying to hidding anything.

[Kimberguy1371]

I don't remember where I post what, i need to start keeping a list. Recently I have been back to the Jackson Crossing. They have their signs...kinda... I was going to take a picture of one for shear amusement... but I forgot my camera. I have been working with the recruiters lately, so I'll be in there again soon. where the previous rules of conduct was listed 1...2...3...ect. this is one giant paragraph! in tiny little writing... with a quick mention on there...if no carrying or displaying of firearms or anything representing a fire arm such as air soft..ect... I was pretty not happy about that considering what was told to me when I went in to talk to them. But on the up side, I did talk to a gentleman who was there OCing... and it seamed like he had no problems... but he was about 15 years older than I and well.... lets face it... white. I look like an Arab Mexican..haha... OC or CC, until they assign a well trained armed body guard to me when i shop,I will not spend another cent there, and still carry.

Here is the concact information if anyone would like to send an e-mail to the Jackson Crossing informing them that they will no longer have your business. I'm am not asking you to do do this, but if you would like to the web sight is such:

www.jacksoncrossing.com/contact.php

Thank you
Chris
____________

[kdogg]

Got stopped for a speeding violation on Middlebelt last month. (Livonia Police -just north of the New Wonderland mall next to the Ford Plant SB. It IS a posted rigid 6 lane 40mph rd. Watch it ! ) After some brisque questioning I was asked why I had not told the officer I had a CPL after I was stopped. I told him I did not. He said not according to his information I did. He said I came up positive on his data base. I had APPLIED 3 days BEFORE at the Wayne County Sherrif and was told it would take 3 to 4 MONTHS before it would be reviewed by the Gun Board. After 10 minutes and a few phone calls he confirmed what I had said to be the truth.
What happened here ? There could have been a hellva fine with the CPL issue.

BTW: A speeding ticket for 1-5MPH over the limit in LIVONIA is $105.00 (2 pts)

I know someone else replied to this but I wanted to touch on this too.

Unfortunately a lot of police officers simply don't know the law. Doesn't matter if you have a CPL or not, you do NOT have to tell the officer you have one if you are NOT carrying a firearm when your stopped.

Anyway last winter we got pulled over on bar night for speeding.

Just about everyone in the car had a CPL but no one was carrying because well, we were at the bar. No one was legally drunk btw. Well I don't think.

My friend didn't tell the officer he had a CPL because, well, he wasn't carrying. The officer came back and asked if my friend was a weapon in the car. My friend said no. The officer asked if he had a valid CPL. My friend said yes. The officer asked why he has not informed him and my friend told him he was not carrying so there was no need.

All hell broke loose. And the officer ripped into my friend telling him he knew more about the law then my friend and that he had to inform him and that he would loose his CPL because he didn't and that he could be arrested etc.

My friend very calmly told the police officer he didn't know what he was talking about which made the officer even more upset. He ended up dragging my friend out of the car and hand cuffing him. Some of the others guys in the car then told the office he was wrong which pissed him off even more. Back up got called, a supervisor showed up finally and informed the officer we were right and that the officer was wrong.

We were apologized to and told to have a nice evening by the supervisor. No tickets written.

One of my friends told the supervisor he needed to cover stuff like this at meetings with the officers and he said he would take that under advisement. Basically he didn't care either.

[sullyxlh]

Doesn't matter if you have a CPL or not, you do NOT have to tell the officer you have one if you are NOT carrying a firearm when your stopped.OK...........
If I''m not carrying and get pulled over and a LEO asks if I'm carrying and I tell him I don't have to tell you,
I seriously doubt the LE is going to tell me to have a nice day Sir and send me on my way......

[who dat]

OK...........
If I''m not carrying and get pulled over and a LEO asks if I'm carrying and I tell him I don't have to tell you,
I seriously doubt the LE is going to tell me to have a nice day Sir and send me on my way......
I think he meant that you don't have to initiate that conversation. If he asks, I'll sure tell him I'm not carrying. Probably like this, "If I was I would have told you.":lol:

[OIFvet2ID]

The Georgia code doesn't specify between OC/CC.

I know this is a little off subject but here goes.....I am on active duty orders, stationed at Camp Atterbury, Indiana and have been since I got back from iraq. Down here, they have a LTCH, License To Carry a Handgun. Indiana does NOT have open carry like we do in michigan. It is legal to OC, but only if you have a LTCH. Their license is also a lifetime license.

Once again, not trying to hijack the thread. I am contemplating OCing in the Jackson area, but I dont know enough about it. Venator has sent me some links, still working on reading them.

[dougwg]

just make sure you "know" before OCing

[Kimberguy1371]

just make sure you "know" before OCing
:yeahthat:

who brought this thread back to life? :bounce:

[ergoman]

oops

[Jim Simmons]

Oops is right.