Open Carry

[J_GRZY_16]

Can anyone please clarify me the legality of carrying a pistol in a open carry format (outside the pants and visible to the public).

[Roger Roney]

Can anyone please clarify me the legality of carrying a pistol in a open carry format (outside the pants and visible to the public).Welcome.

There is a "search" function in the top toolbar. Please use it. Your question has been answered multiple times in many threads, including several "active" ones, ie; posts within the last few days.

BTW, It's legal, but..... :lol:

Roger

[dougwg]

Welcome to MGO

If you want open carry info the best place for that is here http://www.opencarry.org

Here's a little bit of info for you on the subject of OC.

Welcome to the Michigan forum on opencarry.org. Many of your questions about open carry will be answered in the information seen below. This information is what we give out on the legality of the open carry of a handgun in Michigan. Also included is the information packet we send to local Police Departments. There are also a couple of newspaper articles on open carry, as well as some links you might enjoy. Enjoy reading the many posts and experiences people have while exercising a basic human right, that of self defense. We welcome all questions and comments and ask only when you post something either state it as your opinion or include a citation of your “fact”. Also, feel free to copy and use/modify any of this information for your individual needs.

To help us determine the number of members from Michigan I'm requesting any member that has not put a location under their screen name to please do so. This data will help us with press releases on how many members we have from Michigan. If you are not comfortable in listing a specific area, you can list the closest large city (Detroit area), or county (Grand Traverse) or region (Eastern UP, MI, or Central Michigan.....), you get the idea. If this is still too specific than just put Michigan. To see how many members there are from Michigan. Click on the word Michigan under a posters screen name, this will take you to a Michigan members listing. Thank You.

The objectives of Michigan open carry are:


To educate and desensitize the public and members of the law enforcement community about the legality of the open carry of a handgun in public.
To exercise a natural right to self defense using the most efficient and common tool, a handgun.
To demonstrate to the public at large that gun owners are one of the most lawful segments of society and they have nothing to fear from the lawful carry of a firearm.
To Protect our right to self-defense.
Methods to accomplish these objectives are:


To distribute information via email, mail, telephone and in person to local law enforcement agencies.
To have periodic and informal gatherings in public places throughout the state while open carrying our handguns.
To contact the media, conduct interviews, relate pertinent information on the internet, write articles and letters to the editors all on the legality of open carry.
To participate in larger public events, festivals, car shows, etc., and staff a information booth about open carry.
To stay informed of and act against infringing legislation.
To always be an ambassador of good will in regards to the safe and lawful carry of a firearm.
WHAT WE HAND OUT TO PEOPLE ABOUT OPEN CARRY

You can download this info in a word document from these two links.

Info pamphlet:
http://people.emich.edu/nburden/info.doc

Letter to LEOs:
http://people.emich.edu/nburden/LEOs.doc

If you every need to file a complaint against the police, know your rights. See this video and learn what tricks they use to stop you from complaining. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QZtWmivIYw&feature=related

YOU CAN OPENLY CARRY A HANDGUN IN MICHIGAN*

1) Any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who owns a safety inspected handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL. Private property rules over-ride state law in regards to firearm possession.

MSP Legal Update Newsletters: April 2007 and June 2008: Did You Know: …It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol…...

PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital. h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act (BAR). (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

b) A peace officer.

c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

2) If you don’t have a CPL, you must transport your handgun as prescribe by law.

Michigan State Police Web Site. Transporting a pistol in a motor vehicle?

Answer A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle. The law defines ‘lawful purpose’ as: 1) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area. 2) While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair. 3) While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business. 4) While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol. 5) While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale. 6) While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted. 7) While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

3) No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law.

In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

THE MICHIGAN COURT of APPEALS CONCLUDED: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.
MCRGO v. Ferndale: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.

4) Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm.

ADVISORY NOTE: Though this section on disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

BRANDISHING Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: …In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.

5) A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address. No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. It is your option to provide ID/CPL.

ADVISORY NOTE: Each situation is different. We recommend you cooperate with all lawful questions and requests. Ask the officer if the reason you are being detained is for the legal open carry of a firearm. After giving your name and address, ask if you are free to go, ask if you are being detained. If they continue to ask questions about ID and why you are carrying a gun, repeat the question, am I free to go? Am I being detained? If the situation escalates ask for a supervisor. Remember the officer can arrest you for anything, don’t resist the arrest. After an illegal arrest you may have legal options you can employ.

6) An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc.

Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

“Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”

Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441

“…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"

ADVISORY NOTE: Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force. Taking a self defense/firearm course is recommended. Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.

FOR MORE INFO SEE http://WWW.OPENCARRY.ORG and click on forums, then click on MICHIGAN.

*The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research on the subject of open carry in Michigan. You are responsible in determining the accuracy of any information listed above. If you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

WHAT WE SEND TO LEO DEPARTMENTS:

Dear Chief or Sheriff:

Attached is information on the legality of the open carry of a handgun in Michigan. The open carry of a handgun has increased in Michigan in the last year as more and more citizens are becoming aware of its legality. It is our hope that this information is helpful to you and that you will take the time to review the information and inform your officers on the legality of the open carry of a handgun in Michigan. We also hope that you work with your 911 dispatchers in regards to asking some simple question when they receive a call of a “person with a gun”. I you have questions please talk with your prosecuting attorney or you can contact me via email or phone for more information. We thank you for your time and consideration in this regard and appreciate the difficult job you all do.

Sincerely,
Michigan Open Carry.

More here~~~>http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html<~~~Clicky ! ! !

[Venator12]

Can anyone please clarify me the legality of carrying a pistol in a open carry format (outside the pants and visible to the public).
I see you are From TC. My home town, get up there often and I have open carried in the downtown area, stores, J&S hamburger, etc. I have sent the Chief and the Sheriff info on open carry. They should be aware it's legal. You can PM for more details.

[Done Deal]

Welcome to this site.

The Legal Beagle Corner is so that you can ask the attorney specific questions.

If you want answers from just anybody....you will be able to wear your eyes out with all the opinions that you will find if you take the advice to try out the search feature.

[TAC]

Can anyone please clarify me the legality of carrying a pistol in a open carry format (outside the pants and visible to the public).

Be careful. I noticed you are in Traverse City, which has had some issues with open carry, according to some previous threads on the subject. I'd suggest you talk to your local police department directly.

[Jim Simmons]

Open carry, as you describe, is not prohibited except in the following places (the 750.234d list):

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.


If you have a CPL, then this list does not apply to you; however you should avoid carrying in the following places (the 28.425o list):

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying
a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the
child from the school. As used in this section, “school” and “school property” mean those terms as defined in section 237a of
the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child
placing agency.
(c) A sports arena or stadium.
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where
the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This
subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop
and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101
to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that “This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons”. The
owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to
436.2303, may, but shall not be required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment
licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce
this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless
the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of
concealed pistol on that property or facility.
(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know
has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than
1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
(g) A hospital.
(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

You have probably noticed that there's a lot of overlap on these lists.


28.425o prohibits CPL holder from carrying a concealed pistol in this second list of places, so an argument has arisen during some discussion that a CPL holder can openly carry a pistol into all of these premises. AFAIK, that argument has not been tested in the courts. If all of the judges in Michigan were strict constructionists, I might agree, but they are not all strict constructionists, so I recommend that CPL holders avoid carrying pistols, concealed or open, in the 425o list of places until that issue is resolved.


I continue to advise that people avoid openly carrying a pistol in an urban or suburban setting. I'm concerned about interactions with overeager or overaggressive LEOs. Misunderstandings where firearms are concerned can have tragic consequences.

[Garbo]

Well here

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=28219

run this off and go sit on the throne and read through the potential problems with overeager LEO's Jim was referring to.

[TAC]

I found the thread directly related to open carry in Traverse City I mentioned.

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=27978&highlight=traverse+city+open+carry

[Venator12]

I found the thread directly related to open carry in Traverse City I mentioned.

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=27978&highlight=traverse+city+open+carry

This happened 6 years before shall issue, and was provoked by the TC police. This is an exceptional case. As I stated in a previous post, I have OC in TC without trouble and the departments have be sent info on OC.

[karcent]

......and was provoked by the TC police.

Well, that's the whole point of Jims advice, isn't it?

[TAC]

This happened 6 years before shall issue, and was provoked by the TC police. This is an exceptional case. As I stated in a previous post, I have OC in TC without trouble and the departments have be sent info on OC.

I was refering to the comment by the OP:

Originally Posted by michiganfarmer
I read the legal update on the state police website that says open carry is legal. I called the Traverse City post to ask if they had read it yet. They said they had not read it, and I better not OC.

[ghostrider]

Like others have said, it's legal. However, it's more important to not only know your rights, but also how to properly assert them. As Jim has implied, you could run into an undereducated or overzealous police officer, so it's important to know how to properly handle such situations in a manner that won't get you into trouble.

[ltdave]

dont want this to be a hijack so please forgive me if it is...

aCPL holder decides to open carry and is doing so. hes ready to travel back to his home. he CAN just hop in his car and carry on his hip because he has a CPL and DL on his person, correct?

because he is exercising his right to open carry, it does not require him to transport in "OC" manner, right?

thanks

[Done Deal]

dont want this to be a hijack so please forgive me if it is...

aCPL holder decides to open carry and is doing so. hes ready to travel back to his home. he CAN just hop in his car and carry on his hip because he has a CPL and DL on his person, correct?

because he is exercising his right to open carry, it does not require him to transport in "OC" manner, right?

thanks

I'd say right...

I CPL eliminates the need to unload and all that other stuff non-licensees have to do.

[Jim Simmons]

A CPL grants one the right to carry a pistol concealed on his or her person, and the right to carry a pistol in a motor vehicle, "concealed or otherwise." So ITDave, you are correct.

[ltdave]

woohoo!

got to love being right every now and again....

[Venator12]

Open carry, as you describe, is not prohibited except in the following places (the 750.234d list):

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.


If you have a CPL, then this list does not apply to you; however you should avoid carrying in the following places (the 28.425o list):

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying
a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the
child from the school. As used in this section, “school” and “school property” mean those terms as defined in section 237a of
the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child
placing agency.
(c) A sports arena or stadium.
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where
the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This
subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop
and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101
to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that “This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons”. The
owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to
436.2303, may, but shall not be required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment
licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce
this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless
the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of
concealed pistol on that property or facility.
(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know
has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than
1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
(g) A hospital.
(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

You have probably noticed that there's a lot of overlap on these lists.


28.425o prohibits CPL holder from carrying a concealed pistol in this second list of places, so an argument has arisen during some discussion that a CPL holder can openly carry a pistol into all of these premises. AFAIK, that argument has not been tested in the courts. If all of the judges in Michigan were strict constructionists, I might agree, but they are not all strict constructionists, so I recommend that CPL holders avoid carrying pistols, concealed or open, in the 425o list of places until that issue is resolved.


I continue to advise that people avoid openly carrying a pistol in an urban or suburban setting. I'm concerned about interactions with overeager or overaggressive LEOs. Misunderstandings where firearms are concerned can have tragic consequences.


It's true this has not been tested in court. MCL 750.234d does exempt CPL holders, as well as allowing firearms with owners permission. This law was passed years before the 2001 Shall Issue law. In regards to concealed carry the recent law lists several places that you can not have a CONCEALED weapon.

So a slight conflict exists between both legal statues. The interpretation done by the AG, the MSP, and one senator was that a CPL holder could carry openly in these restricted places. There responses are below. Most of the restricted areas are private property and you can be asked to leave, but there is some question that you would not have broken a firearm law. Jim's advice is as it should be, on the cautious side. But it comes down to what you feel is right for you in this regard.

An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d.

Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

“Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”
Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441

“…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"

[Jim Simmons]

Venator, who has the original of the letter from Sgt Deasy?

Also, I've posted a link to a Macomb Daily story about an open carry picnic in Warren this weekend on the "Latest News Story" forum.

[who dat]

Venator, who has the original of the letter from Sgt Deasy?

Also, I've posted a link to a Macomb Daily story about an open carry picnic in Warren this weekend on the "Latest News Story" forum.


I have the following:

Good afternoon,

Michigan Concealed Pistol Licenses grant the holder permission to carry a concealed pistol, but they do not require concealed carry. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in places where it would be lawful to do so without a CPL.

Sincerely,



Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441


And this one:

Mr. xxxxxx,

Yes, so-called open carry is legal in Michigan, with or without a CPL. It doesn't matter how a pistol is carried, as long as it's not concealed. A holstered pistol is considered "open" if part of the pistol is visible and it's readily apparent that the item is a pistol.

Sincerely,



Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441

[Jim Simmons]

I'm presuming those are both e-mails then?

And the first one addresses only 234d CEZs, not 425o CEZs. (". . . . may openly carry a pistol in places where it would be lawful to do so without a CPL.")

[who dat]

I'm presuming those are both e-mails then?

And the first one addresses only 234d CEZs, not 425o CEZs. (". . . . may openly carry a pistol in places where it would be lawful to do so without a CPL.")
Yes, both are emails, and I assumed the question posed for each was self evident, but I can post those if you wish. Short version attached:

Q. You have helped me in the past with questions about firearms law, and I thank you.

Another has come up and I would like to hear your answers to the questions, "Is open carry of a pistol legal in Michigan without a Michigan CPL? Does it matter if it is in a holster?"

A. Yes, so-called open carry is legal in Michigan, with or without a CPL. It doesn't matter how a pistol is carried, as long as it's not concealed. A holstered pistol is considered "open" if part of the pistol is visible and it's readily apparent that the item is a pistol.


Q. As Michigan is an open-carry state regarding firearms, does a CPL holder lose this right upon getting the CPL license? Or can a CPL holder open-carry when needed and enjoy the right of CPL holders when necessary.

A. Michigan Concealed Pistol Licenses grant the holder permission to carry a concealed pistol, but they do not require concealed carry. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in places where it would be lawful to do so without a CPL.

[dougwg]

http://www.macombdaily.com/stories/081408/loc_local01.shtml

PUBLISHED: Thursday, August 14, 2008
'Open carry' group to gather

Guns on hips, advocates to meet in Warren

By Norb Franz
Macomb Daily Staff Writer

Ron Gibson and his wife, Jennifer, talk to their neighbor, Diana Pussehl, right, Wednesday in Washington Township.
Macomb Daily staff photo by David Dalton

http://www.macombdaily.com/images/081408/7579_512.jpg
Ron Gibson carries a semi-automatic pistol on his hip for anyone to see, and insists he's not out to intimidate.

When he goes to bed, the .45 caliber firearm is nearby and loaded.

"Just because I'm carrying a gun, I shouldn't be viewed as a threat. I don't bring any attention to it whatsoever," he said.

Gibson is among about three dozen members of a gun rights group who will "pack" a picnic with their families Saturday afternoon in Warren.

They are part of a growing movement of advocates promoting the Second Amendment and the open carrying of handguns.

The group, members of OpenCarry.org, invites the public to stop by at Veterans Memorial Park, on Campbell at Martin Road, and ask questions or pick up a pamphlet.

But don't look for them to fire shots into the sky - or even take their weapons out of the holster.

It's the first public event in Macomb County for the gun proponents, following other gatherings around Michigan - the most recent in Hastings. None of the events has caused much of a stir, but still raised a few eyebrows.

"Our goal is to be educational without being confrontational," said Gibson, 38, of Washington Township.

Pat Glide, salesman at Michi-Gun in St. Clair Shores, said most customers are knowledgeable about Michigan's right-to-carry gun laws.

"We get asked questions on a daily basis," he said.

Warren Police Commissioner William Dwyer said Wednesday his department is aware of Saturday's picnic.

"We don't believe there are going to be any problems. We feel they certainly have a right to do what they're doing," he said.

Still, Warren police plan to monitor it. Dispatchers have been advised about the picnic and how to handle any 911 calls. Dwyer refused to divulge details of an operational order he has issued for officers Saturday.

"Hopefully it will be a peaceful picnic," he added.

With Macomb County leading the way, Michigan's concealed weapons law was changed six years ago to require county gun boards - which previously could deny permits for virtually any reason - to issue a permit to any adult who passed a safety course and did not have a criminal record or mental illness.

Gun-owning motorists must remove the holster and store the firearm unloaded in the trunk or other place far from reach when behind the wheel.

Michigan is among 44 states where it's legal to carry a weapon in public with a permit. If the guns are holstered, they must be in plain view at all times, and legally purchased. Anyone purchasing a pistol must be at least 18 years old and register it with their local police department.

Gibson said open-carry is not a form of machismo. He said some in law enforcement aren't knowledgeable about gun laws in their own respective states, occasionally leading to disputes with local officials. Members who are detained are usually released after police check with their municipal attorney.

"Here in my neighborhood, I open carry almost every day," said Gibson, who said he's been threatened with arrest.

Across the nation, gun rights advocates have gained new confidence from a landmark Supreme Court ruling in June that clarified that individuals have the right to keep guns in their homes for personal protection. The 5-4 decision overturned a 32-year-old handgun ban in Washington, D.C.

In a society where many people keep cellular phones and Blackberry units on their belt, the handgun on Gibson's hip usually doesn't stand out. Still, someone in a store occasionally will inquire if he's a cop. When he replies that he's "just an ordinary citizen," some will question why he feels the need to pack a pistol. His answer: to protect his family and practice his constitutional rights.

"A right unexercised is a right lost," the married father said. "I hope and pray I never have to fire that thing at anything but the paper target at the (gun) range. But if I feel my life is threatened or my family's life is threatened, then yeah."

Gibson, a deer hunter who said he owns "several" rifles and shotguns, recalls firing a 12-gauge shotgun at age 4 with his father's guidance. The owner of a computer business, Gibson said he doesn't open carry when meeting with customers because he considers it inappropriate to display his advocacy to customers.

OpenCarry.org members acknowledge that it might be unnerving for some in public to see a group openly toting handguns. With that, members try to combat what they describe as a stigma that gun owners are lawbreakers.

Founded in 2004 by Virginia residents Mike Stollenwerk and John Pierce, OpenCarry.org's Web site boasts more than 8,500 registered members and records 600,000 hits a month.

[Venator12]

Venator, who has the original of the letter from Sgt Deasy?

Jim, this is the original question to the MSP and the Senator. I have deleted the persons name, if you like PM me and I can give you the persons name.

Questions on open carry under MCL 750.234d
The Question:

I have a question regarding the open carry of firearms by a CPL holder. It seems as if there are two relevant Michigan laws: MCL 28.425o and MCL 750.234d.

MCL 28.425o prohibits concealed carry in certain areas (i.e., Day Care, school, sports arena, bar, church, An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500, hospital and dorm.) Note, this just prohibits concealed carry, not open carry.

MCL 750.234d prohibits possession of firearms in certain areas (i.e., bank, church, court, theatre, sports arena, day care, hospital or bar). The statutes also states, “This section does not apply to any of the following: (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” This statute then, does not apply to me, as I am a CPL holder.

Neither of the previous statutes prohibits open carry by a CPL holder in “Pistol Free Zone.” Based upon this (and the assumptions that there are no Michigan laws I am overlooking), it seems as if I open carry in the Pistol Free Zones I would not be breaking any laws. Is this correct?

I greatly appreciate you taking the time to clarify this with me.
Sincerely, -KM

RESPONSES TO THE QUESTION:

Mr. M,

Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.

Sincerely,
Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section, 714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441

[PhotoTom]

Link from a previous discussion on the same matter, including the original author's direct input (see link to open carry forum on the next page after this one):

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?p=225195#post225195

Sgt. Deasy didn't always hold the much quoted version of his opinion, as discussed in the link above.

[ltdave]

Gun-owning motorists must remove the holster and store the firearm unloaded in the trunk or other place far from reach when behind the wheel.

misinformation or at least an incomplete statement that is very misleading...

[dougwg]

"Dear Mr. Mcdowell

My office received your inquiry regarding the legality of a licensed CPL holder to open carry a firearm in "Pistol Free Zones." On Friday we received a copy of your correspondence, as Senator Carl Levin's Office referred your letter to my office because your concerns mainly pertain to state issues. As such, I am happy to assist you in this matter.



My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are licensed a CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter. Apparently, this is a loophole that has been recently identified and no legislation has been proposed to amend it.



I hope this information serves helpful to you, and please do not hesitate to contact my office regarding any other state issue of your concern.

Michael A Prusi

State Senator

38th District"

:score:

[who dat]

misinformation or at least an incomplete statement that is very misleading...
Accurate for non CPL holders. In the context of this letter, I think it is understood.

[who dat]

:score:
Exactly what authority does this Sen. Prusi have?

With the AG opinions not even holding water, letters from Sgt. Deasy being ridiculed, and letters from Mr. Cox's secretary getting used as birdcage liners, how far down is this guy?

The word "loophole" was used here, it's only a matter of time that the aggressiveness of the OC contingent causes a little more introspection by the legislature. Good luck with that.

[Venator12]

Exactly what authority does this Sen. Prusi have?

With the AG opinions not even holding water, letters from Sgt. Deasy being ridiculed, and letters from Mr. Cox's secretary getting used as birdcage liners, how far down is this guy?

The word "loophole" was used here, it's only a matter of time that the aggressiveness of the OC contingent causes a little more introspection by the legislature. Good luck with that.

I don't think Doug was saying any of the opinions have any authority. The info is posted to show that some people in the legal/law making and law-enforcement community have expressed their opinions on the statues.

It's not brain surgery, MCL 750.234d exempts CPL holders, so they can carry in the placed listed there. The concealed law (that came after) states places you can't have a concealed firearm. So by adding the two statues up, one could rightly conclude that CPL holders MUST OC in the places described in .234d

Will the opinions hold up? Only case law will decide that.

Besides with permision from the owners a person can have a firearm in/on thoses places listed in .234d.

[RS2]

Exactly what authority does this Sen. Prusi have?



Zero

[Jim Simmons]

Zero

You're being generous.

The stuff from the MSP, on the other hand, might possibly be helpful in a prosecution -- if we can establish that the defendant knew about (or better yet, received) the MSP communicaiton.

Maybe. Hence my question.

[RS2]

You're being generous.


I'm a generous guy.



I agree that the MSP communication might be valuable.

[Venator12]

You're being generous.

The stuff from the MSP, on the other hand, might possibly be helpful in a prosecution -- if we can establish that the defendant knew about (or better yet, received) the MSP communicaiton.

Maybe. Hence my question.

You don't think the AG opinion would be helpful as well?

[RS2]

You don't think the AG opinion would be helpful as well?

The infamous letter to which you have referred is NOT an Attorney General Opinion. Thus, no.

[Jim Simmons]

Not authoritative as a formal OAG, no. But it might have other value, should the issue arise.

Just as long as somebody keeps and has access to the original e-mail and correspondence. That's the important part.

[Venator12]

Not authoritative as a formal OAG, no. But it might have other value, should the issue arise.

Just as long as somebody keeps and has access to the original e-mail and correspondence. That's the important part.

Or you could ask the good Sgt. the same question and keep a copy for your files.

[Venator12]

The infamous letter to which you have referred is NOT an Attorney General Opinion. Thus, no.
You misunderstood. There is an AG's opinion which states the same thing as what the MSP has stated. I was asking Jim if the AG's opinion would be helpful as well as the MSP opinion. You could go back over the posts again and see what's what.

[PhotoTom]

There is an AG's opinion which states the same thing as what the MSP has stated.

Let's try it this way...
Can it be found here:
http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/op_main.htm

If not, then the point remains...there is no AG's opinion.

[Jim Simmons]

Let's try it this way...
Can it be found here:
http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/op_main.htm

If not, then the point remains...there is no AG's opinion.

Actually, there is. It's a Granholm opinion, no less. OAG 7113, 6/28/2002.

Antis will try to distinguish it by saying it's about unpaid volunteer reserve LEOs with CPLs, but the the letter states that they only can do what the rest of us with CPLs can do. And that includes openly carrying in 425o CEZs.

So, given my usual caveats about the reliability of OAGs, there is this authority saying the same thing.

And Venator, when you said:

Or you could ask the good Sgt. the same question and keep a copy for your files.

that doesn't help. In the event that someone is charged, it might help if we could establish that that person know of the Sergeant's remarks. My having it on file doesn't help bupkis.

[jjto2001]

There's a bunch of good stuff on opencarry.org

[FIRERESCUEO2]

A little redundant, but I found this as well ............ it is a question pertaining to reserve officers - but a non-certified reserve is a normal citizen while not on duty ............... it helps a little in clarification of school zones ........


STATE OF MICHIGAN

JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM, ATTORNEY GENERAL



CONCEALED WEAPONS:

FIREARMS:

LAW ENFORCEMENT:

PEACE OFFICERS:

Reserve police officer carrying exposed pistol in gun-free zones established by Concealed Pistol Licensing Act

Reserve police officer carrying exposed pistol in gun-free zones established by Michigan Penal Code.

A uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized "peace officer" or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code.
Opinion No. 7113

June 28, 2002
Honorable Gary C. Peters
State Senator
The Capitol
Lansing, MI

Honorable Mary Ann Middaugh
State Representative
The Capitol
Lansing, MI

Honorable Larry Julian
State Representative
The Capitol
Lansing, MI

You have asked whether a uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within a "gun-free zone" established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act.

Your inquiry is governed by the interplay between two separate but related statutes, both of which regulate the possession of firearms.

The Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 et seq, regulates the possession and carrying of concealed pistols. The Act prohibits persons from carrying a concealed pistol unless they have been licensed in accordance with the provisions of that Act. Amendatory 2000 PA 381 made significant changes to the Act. Section 5b(7) sets forth specific qualifications a person must possess in order to receive a license to carry a concealed pistol and further provides that a county concealed weapon licensing board "shall issue a license" to an applicant who meets those requirements. The Act also provides that a person who is issued a license under the Act may carry a concealed pistol "anywhere in this state" except in certain designated classes of locations listed in section 5o of the Act. Those exceptions, commonly referred to as "gun free zones," include the following:

a) A school or school property . . . .

b) A public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

c) A sports arena or stadium.

d) A dining room, lounge, or bar area of a premises licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998 . . . . This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the premises.

e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

f) An entertainment facility [that has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more] . . . .

g) A hospital.

h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university. [Section 5o(1).]

Section 12a of the Act expressly exempts certain persons from the requirements of the Act, including:

(a) A peace officer of a duly authorized police agency of the United States or of this state or a political subdivision of this state, who is regularly employed and paid by the United States or this state or a subdivision of this state, except a township constable. [Emphasis added.]

Under the express terms of this section, a police officer or reserve police officer is exempt from the requirements of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, including the prohibition against carrying a concealed weapon in a "gun free zone," but only if the officer (1) possesses the full authority of a peace officer, and not merely special or limited law enforcement authority; and (2) is regularly employed and paid for those services. See OAG, 2001-2002, No 7098, p 74 (January 11, 2002). Your inquiry does not specify whether the uniformed reserve officer in question possesses the full authority of a peace officer. You do, however, specify that the officer in question serves as an unpaid volunteer. Because the exemption contained in section 12a(a) is limited to officers who are "regularly employed," an unpaid volunteer officer is not exempt from the provisions of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act and is, therefore, prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol in a designated "gun free zone." OAG No 7098, supra.

A plain reading of section 5o(1) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act discloses, however, that its prohibition applies only to the carrying of pistols that are "concealed." A holstered pistol carried openly and in plain view is not "concealed" and therefore does not violate the prohibition contained in that section. See, e.g., OAG, 1951-1952, No 1388, p 228 (April 18, 1951) ("Should they be so directed by their superior officers, auxiliary police while on duty may carry weapons openly, the prohibition in the Penal Code applying only to 'concealed' weapons."), Cf., People v Johnnie W. Jones, 12 Mich App 293, 296; 162 NW2d 847 (1968); and People v Kincade, 61 Mich App 498, 502; 233 NW2d 54 (1975).

This, however, does not end the analysis of your question. The carrying of firearms in public is also restricted by the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.1 et seq. Section 234d of the Penal Code identifies certain "gun free zones" similar to those enumerated in section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; within those specified zones, the possession of firearms is strictly prohibited, subject to limited exceptions. Specifically, section 234d(1) of the Penal Code provides that:

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

This language is significantly broader than that employed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. By its express terms, section 234d(1) of the Penal Code applies to firearms generally, not merely to pistols, and applies to firearms whether concealed or not. Subsection (2) of this provision creates several specific exceptions to this prohibition, two of which are germane to your inquiry. It provides, in pertinent part that:

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

* * *

(b) A peace officer.

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

Similarly, section 237a(4) of the Penal Code prohibits possession of a firearm in a weapon free school zone, a term defined in section 237a(6)(d) as "school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property." Like section 234d(2), the prohibition against possessing firearms in a school zone does not apply to a peace officer or to a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Section 237a(5).

If a reserve officer qualifies as a peace officer, then the officer is exempt from the prohibition contained in sections 234d(1) and 237a(4) of the Penal Code concerning the possession of firearms on specified premises. If not, sections 234d(2)(c) and 237a(5)(c) of the Penal Code also exempt "[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon." A license issued by a county concealed weapon licensing board under section 5b(7) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act clearly satisfies the latter exemption. Thus, possession of such a license would enable a reserve police officer to carry an exposed, holstered pistol in the "gun free zones" described in sections 234d and 237a of the Penal Code.

It is my opinion, therefore, that a uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized "peace officer" or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code.

JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM
Attorney General

http://opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10188.htm
State of Michigan, Department of Attorney General
Last Updated Mon, 01 Jul 2002 18:52:43 GMT