Quick Question

[Ttwo669]

Is it legal to carry a visible pistol in public?

[rio]

Is it legal to carry a visible pistol in public?


:popcorn:

[skoltuniak]

www.opencarry.org

;-)

[Jim Simmons]

Legal, yes. Except in certain areas.

Advisable, no. IMO, a dumb thing to do.

Others may disagree. Others will disagree.

My advice -- and theirs -- is worth precisely what you paid for it.

[Venator12]

Legal, yes. Except in certain areas.

Advisable, no. IMO, a dumb thing to do.

Others may disagree. Others will disagree.

My advice -- and theirs -- is worth precisely what you paid for it.
Oh Jim, I thought you were a constitutionalist. Why is exercising a right dumb?
Can someone move this to the open carry thread, please?

[Garbo]

Definatly read and understand the law. One thing that OC can get you in trouble with is if you dont have a CPL and you enter a car or even sit on a motorcycle.

[johnzilla]

Oh Jim, I thought you were a constitutionalist. Why is exercising a right dumb?
Can someone move this to the open carry thread, please?

OPSEC, for one.

I see you OC'ing. I follow you home. I wait. You leave to go to work, etc. I go in your home, and take every gun you aren't carrying, along with anything else you have of value that I and my buddies can carry. If you have anything less than a $2000 AMSEC BF series gun safe or something very similar or better, I take all those guns, too, especially if I know you're at work for 8 hours and I can spend my time hacking at your safe.

Or, I see you OC'ing. It is a good bet you've got a gun in your vehicle as a back up. I break into your vehicle, and take that gun. I don't need to go to your house, I just need a quick, untraceable weapon and the backup in your vehicle will do just fine.

Or, I don't see you OC'ing, but I see you get out of a vehicle covered in pro-gun bumper stickers. There's a good bet there's a gun in that vehicle (especially if I just saw you go into a bank, or a bar, or a concert, or other exclusion zone). I take that gun.

People make WAY to much out of criminals picking easier targets if they think someone is armed, or make WAY too much out of the conventional wisdom that "criminals are dumb". The truth is that a bonehead criminal may be deterred (a junkie looking for a fix, etc), but a determined, halfway observant and intelligent criminal probably won't be, because there are simply too many everyday life situations where the risk of being shot at is very very small whether the victim is a gun owner or not. Remember, illegal guns on the street had to come from somewhere, and there's a really good bet the criminal didn't get them from a FFL.

Yes, open carry is a right you are welcome to exercise. For me, broadcasting to the general public that I have enough disposable income to spend it on firearms is not worth the breakdown in OPSEC. I know you will disagree, that's fine. To each, their own.

[MarkoPo]

Legal yes, but can you get away with it? No. I was told by a LEO that if he saw someone walking down the street with a pistol on his hip that person would be arrested for causing a public disturbance.

[dougwg]

OPSEC, for one.

WOW

Better not go to a gun store or a gun range.... they'll follow you home and then kill children with YOUR gun.

Illegal guns come from somewhere... I guess we should just shut down all the gun manufacturers.:bs:

[who dat]

Legal yes, but can you get away with it? No. I was told by a LEO that if he saw someone walking down the street with a pistol on his hip that person would be arrested for causing a public disturbance.
Well, that LEO would just open himself and his department up to a nice fat lawsuit. Under no stretch of the law would this definition be applicable.

[johnzilla]

Better not go to a gun store or a gun range.... they'll follow you home and then kill children with YOUR gun.

Illegal guns come from somewhere... I guess we should just shut down all the gun manufacturers.:bs:

Come on, don't turn my comments into something they aren't.

All I said was that there are probably some folks who think that broadcasting they have guns is not a wise course of action. There's nothing wrong with discretion. That's all. We're all entitled to our opinion, and to imply that I'm somehow against guns or gun manufacturers because I can think of some reasons why someone might decide not to OC everywhere they go is ridiculous.

If I was a criminal and needed a gun, I'd either buy one off the street or steal one, right? OK, then assume that I'm stealing one. Where would I look? A vehicle with pro-hunting and pro-gun stickers? For sure. A house where I knew the owner owned guns and the owner wasn't home? For sure.

[ro2]

Is it worth the grief if you get popped for it? Do you have the money to fight a law enforcement agency? Or could you even find a lawyer that would work contingent on victory for you? This question was brought up in a different room some time back What it came down to was alot of people screamed about how its youre right, but almost none of those people said the would OC or actively do it. Just get a cpl save the hassle of all the loop holes than can get you busted on OC law. Or OC and prepare to stand up for youre right.:biggrin:

[dougwg]

Is it worth the grief if you get popped for it? Do you have the money to fight a law enforcement agency? Or could you even find a lawyer that would work contingent on victory for you? This question was brought up in a different room some time back What it came down to was alot of people screamed about how its youre right, but almost none of those people said the would OC or actively do it. Just get a cpl save the hassle of all the loop holes than can get you busted on OC law. Or OC and prepare to stand up for youre right.:biggrin:

I and MOST people that OC ALREADY have CPL's:biggrin:

This is one of my biggest issues I have with some of you people. You want to spout off and say stuff about something that you have neither given any real thought to or researched.

If you're going to talk about an issue you should at least educate your self on that subject before sticking your foot in your mouth.:D

[Ttwo669]

i wasn't saying i was going to, but in some places i go, it would be nice to open carry. i took my cpl/ccw class yesteraday, all i need to do now is go in front of the gun board...

[MarkoPo]

I and MOST people that OC ALREADY have CPL's:biggrin:

This is one of my biggest issues I have with some of you people. You want to spout off and say stuff about something that you have neither given any real thought to or researched.

If you're going to talk about an issue you should at least educate your self on that subject before sticking your foot in your mouth.:D

I don't want to put you on the defensive here but an honest question here. What is the advantage of open carrying when you already have your CPL?

[who dat]

I don't want to put you on the defensive here but an honest question here. What is the advantage of open carrying when you already have your CPL?
Oh, shite!!:hide: INCOMING!!

[Done Deal]

I don't want to put you on the defensive here but an honest question here. What is the advantage of open carrying when you already have your CPL?


Some folks think....so people know better than to mess with you.....

[rio]

:popcorn:
It's warming up.

Norm

[Venator12]

I don't want to put you on the defensive here but an honest question here. What is the advantage of open carrying when you already have your CPL?
Depends. Though the option is yours. Do whichever you feel most comfortable with. There...I'm trying to be kinder and gentler. You guys might not even have time to finish your popcorn.

[Venator12]

This was written by a member of opencarry.org on the national forum. I can't find his name, if I do I'll post it. Agree or disagree I don't care, it's food for thought. Make up your own mind on the issue.

The Open Carry Argument
My primary goal when I’m out and about (besides whatever I went out and about to do) is to go about peaceably and not be the victim of a violent crime. To that end I carry a firearm whenever I go out as well as follow all the other standard safety practices like maintaining situational awareness, staying out of high crime areas, and avoiding confrontation. I also have a larger overall goal of making it through my life without shooting anyone. Simply put, I don’t want to be responsible, legally or morally, for another’s death. Those two goals might appear at first blush to be mutually exclusive, and with concealed carry it would be a difficult set of goals to realize.

Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed. Every study I’ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. That only makes sense, right? Robbers, rapists, or carjackers might be dumb and opportunistic, but they have the same instinctual sense of self preservation we all have. Hyenas don’t attack lions to steal the gazelle the lions have just killed. It’s all about risk management; are the potential gains (a tasty gazelle dinner) worth the potential pain and damage the lion’s teeth will cause, and does the hyena really need to test the lion to figure out the answer? No, the hyena can see the lion’s teeth and knows to stay well clear.

Deterrent Value:
When I’m carrying concealed I feel like my ‘teeth’ are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value. If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all. Concealed carry is good; it throws a wrench in the works for criminals who might see the teaming masses as a smorgasbord of financial gain. This deterrent effect is, nonetheless, indirect. At some point the thug will weigh the risks vs. the gains; is his current desperation for money/drugs/booze/gold grille greater than the gamble that one of those people might be carrying a gun? If he decides to play the odds, which helped along with surprise tip the scale in his favor, he will attack. Will his attack allow enough time for me to draw my concealed firearm to affect a defense? Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

Remember, I don’t want to be a victim and I don’t want to shoot anyone. So how do I realize both goals; or how do I make them inclusive? I can do that through open carry. By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal’s gains are far outweighed by the risk. There is no ambiguity when the thug is doing his risk assessment, there’s something right there in plain sight that can quickly and painfully change or terminate his life. You may not think his life has much value, but as I mentioned before, he has the same sense of self preservation as any other living creature and to him it’s every bit as valuable as yours is to you. It would be foolish to ignore this indisputable fact when you develop your overall tactical strategy.

First One To Be Shot:
There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or ‘the first one shot’ when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. If the robber walks in and sees that you’re armed, his whole plan has encountered an unexpected variable. In bank robberies where he might expect to see an armed guard he will have already factored that possibility into his plan, but only for the armed guard, not for open or concealed carry citizens. No robber robs a bank without at least a rudimentary plan. Nevertheless, being present for a bank robbery is an extremely remote possibility for most of us regardless of our preferred method of handgun carry. Back in the 7-11, if he sees someone is armed he is forced to either significantly alter the plan or abort it outright. Robbing is an inherently apprehensive occupation, and one that doesn’t respond well to instant modifications. He is not prepared to commit murder when he only planned for larceny. He knows that a petty robbery will not garner the intense police manhunt a murder would. He doesn’t know if you’re an armed citizen or a police officer and isn’t going to take the time to figure it out. Either way, if someone in the 7-11 is unexpectedly armed, how many others might be similarly adorned and where might they be? Does this armed individual have a partner who is likewise armed behind him in the parking lot, someone who is watching right now? Self preservation compels him to abort the plan for one that is less risky. So we see that the logic matches the history; open carriers are not the first ones shot because it doesn’t make any sense that they would be.

Surprise:
Probably the most common condemnation of open carry comes from the armchair tacticians who believe it’s better to have the element of surprise in a criminal encounter. Although this was touched on in the previous paragraph about deterrence, I’ll expand on it specifically here because there are some important truths you need to consider before you lean too heavily on this false support. Surprise as a defensive tactic is based on unrealistic or ill-thought out scenarios. The circumstance where several street toughs surround and taunt you for a while like in some Charles Bronson movie is not realistic; the mugger wants to get in and out as fast as possible. In most cases you will have only seconds to realize what’s happening, make a decision, and react. Imagine you’re walking along the sidewalk when two gangsta looking teenagers suddenly appear at the corner coming in the opposite direction. You have only seconds to react if their intent was to victimize you. Do you draw your concealed firearm now or wait until there’s an actual visible threat? If they are just on their way to church and you pull a gun on them, you are the criminal and you may forever lose your firearms rights for such a foolish action. If you don’t draw and they pull a knife or pistol when they’re just a couple steps away, your only options are draw (if you think you can) or comply. Imagine staring at the shiny blade of a knife being held by a very nervous and violent mugger, three inches from your or your wife’s throat and having to decide whether or not you have time to draw from concealment. The element of surprise may not do you any good; in fact the only surprising thing that might happen is that your concealed carry pistol gets taken along with your wallet. The thug will later get a good chuckle with his buddies about how you brought a gun to a knife fight. The simple truth is that while surprise is a monumentally superior tactical maneuver, it is exclusively an offensive action, not a defensive one. I am not aware of any army that teaches using surprise as a defense against attack. No squad of soldiers goes on patrol with their weapons hidden so that they can ‘surprise’ the enemy should they walk into an ambush.

It Will Get Stolen:
Another common criticism of open carry is that the firearm itself will be the target of theft, prompting as criminal to attack simply to get the gun from you. Like the previous example of being the first one shot in a robbery, above, this is despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens. It also blindly ignores the more obvious fact that anything you possess can make you the target of a crime, be it a car, a watch, or even a female companion (girlfriend, wife, or daughter). Crooks commonly steal for only two reasons; to get something you have that they want, or to get something that you have so they can sell it and buy something they want. There are no Robins in the hood trying to help the poor by stealing from the rich. I don’t claim it could never happen; just that it’s so remote a possibility that it doesn’t warrant drastic alterations to your self defense strategies. If you believe otherwise, leave your watch, sunglasses, jewelry, and cell phone at home, hop into your Pinto wagon, and head out to do your thing.

It Scares People:
One other statement against open carry I hear is that it damages public perception of firearms owners, or that by carrying openly we are not being good ambassadors to the public. While there are some people who have a genuine fear of firearms, due either to some horrible past experience or anti-gun indoctrination, the majority of people are either indifferent to them or quite fascinated by them. I’ve never kept track of the dozens of fellow citizens I’ve encountered who have marveled at the idea of open carry, but I do know exactly how many have expressed displeasure at it; one. People are scared of many things for many reasons; however, pretending those things do not exist only perpetuates the fear. Someone who is disturbed by open carry is going to be every bit as disturbed by concealed carry. The only effective way to overcome a fear is to come to the intellectual realization that the phobia is based on emotion and not on fact. By being a firsthand witness that a firearm was carried responsibly and peaceably, and wasn’t being carried in the commission of a crime, one discovers their fear is not fact based, but emotional. Thus, open carry can be a very effectual way of helping to overcome the emotionally based fear of the firearm. After all, you’d be much more likely to believe in ghosts if you saw one rather than if you listened to a ghost story around a campfire. We give much more credibility to the things we experience than we do to the things we hear. The bottom line is that this argument is made by people who don’t or haven’t carried openly; those of us who do so on a regular basis have an entirely different experience.

I’m Not Comfortable Carrying Openly:
This is really the only reasonable argument against open carry for an individual. We all have a comfort zone for any aspect of our lives and we prefer to stay within that comfort zone. We all agree that it’s better to be armed and never need the firearm than it is to need it and not have it. There is a point where concealing your firearm becomes so problematic, due to conditions like temperature or comfort, that some choose to either leave it behind or carry in such a way that it would be difficult or impossible to draw it quickly. If it takes me five or six seconds to draw my firearm from deep concealment and I had sufficient time before hand to do so, I would prefer to use that five or six seconds to avoid the entire encounter. I’m glad we have concealed carry laws in most of the states; it empowers and protects not only us but the general public through the offset deterrent effect. Some of us, however, choose the more direct deterrent effect of open carry. The combination of the two makes the criminal’s job that much more risky, that much more dangerous, and that much more uncertain.

[ghostrider]

Come on, don't turn my comments into something they aren't.

All I said was that there are probably some folks who think that broadcasting they have guns is not a wise course of action. There's nothing wrong with discretion. That's all. We're all entitled to our opinion, and to imply that I'm somehow against guns or gun manufacturers because I can think of some reasons why someone might decide not to OC everywhere they go is ridiculous.

If I was a criminal and needed a gun, I'd either buy one off the street or steal one, right? OK, then assume that I'm stealing one. Where would I look? A vehicle with pro-hunting and pro-gun stickers? For sure. A house where I knew the owner owned guns and the owner wasn't home? For sure.I don't think your point is unfounded, but I do think it was poorly made.

The examples dougwg used are not any more extreme than your's. From my own personal conversation with dougwg, I can assure you that he doesn't think that, "the fear of having your home or car burglarized while your gone (because of OC) is an unfounded one". Like I said, you just didn't make the point very well. His examples are very much parallel to yours.

[dougwg]

Yes, I do recognize it as possible. But for most people it is highly un-likely to be an issue.

What is MUCH more probable is what I stated.

I will further expound on both ideas to show which is more likely to happen.

You are saying that someone will have to be
OC'ing
in a bad area
most likely daylight
walking
bad guy near by
bad guy close enough to see gun
bad guy looking at the side of good guy that he's carrying on

I think the chances of being hit by lightning are better.

I am saying
people that have guns go to ranges
bad guys know this
wait outside for someone to leave carrying a large hard case
bad guy follows them home

This type of crime could happen very easily.

How about this analogy.

I'm a hunter, I want to kill deer.
I know that a deer ran down my parents street 5 years ago in Garden City (where there are no deer or so everyone thought).

I can hunt on private wooded property in Jackson county where deer are seen daily.

Where should I hunt? Is this a hard question? Where am I MOST likely to see deer and as such be more likely to get a shot at one.

Might I also suggest, if you live in a unsavory area where it is likely that a bad guy will see you carrying and you have all the wrong things stacked up against you, then yes, don't OC. But I highly doubt many fall into this situation but you want to make it sound like it's as common as cracks on a side walk which it's not.

[mitunnelrat]

There is a simple solution to all of this. Situational Awareness (SA). If there is a danger that a criminal may identify and target you, then it becomes prudent to raise your alertness levels to identify an offender early on. I love living in a quiet area for this reason. Anything less than a professional would have a hard time following me home.

[wishn-i-was-fishn]

i wasn't saying i was going to, but in some places i go, it would be nice to open carry. i took my cpl/ccw class yesteraday, all i need to do now is go in front of the gun board...

Where did you take your CPL class?
The issue about legality of open carry should have been covered in the discussion on the law. Sounds like you may not have gotten your money's worth. I wonder what other information wasn't covered?

Now it's time to get back to the show.
:popcorn:

[Clipper]

I like being able to go to the store, restaurant, etc. and remove my coat when I get too warm. I've been told by all sorts of folks about how some cop or other told them how they'd arrest anyone they see OC'ing, but it's all just tough talk...Maybe they think it'll scare potential OC'ers into not trying it...

[Raspberrysurprise]

Where did you take your CPL class?
The issue about legality of open carry should have been covered in the discussion on the law. Sounds like you may not have gotten your money's worth. I wonder what other information wasn't covered?

Now it's time to get back to the show.
:popcorn:

Some CPL instructors and lawyers avoid OC like the plague or outright lie to people.

Why OC? Because then you can go to those places that you can't CC and still carry.

[KayL]

Some CPL instructors and lawyers avoid OC like the plague or outright lie to people.

Why OC? Because then you can go to those places that you can't CC and still carry.
I think since it's a CPL class, they just like to stay on topic and talk about what people are paying their money to learn. Plus in an NRA class, you have guidelines to follow.

[johnzilla]

Yes, I do recognize it as possible. But for most people it is highly un-likely to be an issue.

What is MUCH more probable is what I stated.

I will further expound on both ideas to show which is more likely to happen.

You are saying that someone will have to be
OC'ing
in a bad area
most likely daylight
walking
bad guy near by
bad guy close enough to see gun
bad guy looking at the side of good guy that he's carrying on

I think the chances of being hit by lightning are better.

I am saying
people that have guns go to ranges
bad guys know this
wait outside for someone to leave carrying a large hard case
bad guy follows them home

This type of crime could happen very easily.

How about this analogy.

I'm a hunter, I want to kill deer.
I know that a deer ran down my parents street 5 years ago in Garden City (where there are no deer or so everyone thought).

I can hunt on private wooded property in Jackson county where deer are seen daily.

Where should I hunt? Is this a hard question? Where am I MOST likely to see deer and as such be more likely to get a shot at one.

Might I also suggest, if you live in a unsavory area where it is likely that a bad guy will see you carrying and you have all the wrong things stacked up against you, then yes, don't OC. But I highly doubt many fall into this situation but you want to make it sound like it's as common as cracks on a side walk which it's not.

Again, "most people".

I have evaluated my situation. Where I live, where I go, who I associate with. I have determined that in my situation, OC is more of a risk than "hiding my teeth" to use the phrase from Venator12's quoted post. I take precautions. That's my choice.

The OC argument is a self-fulfilling argument. For example, the post Venator12 quoted. The author goes on an on about how he wants to OC because he wants to avoid a fight. He wants to avoid trouble. And so on. A constant show of force to make the other guy think twice. Fine.

BUT, that must mean that where he goes, a fight is probable, an incident is probable. That where this guy is going, a constant show of force is required. I think we can all agree, though, that for "most people" they don't spend their days in areas where a gun incident is probable. Possible, yes. Probable? Doubtful.

Take, for example, OC'ing in Home Depot. Great. No problems, go for it. But, according to the author quoted by Venator12, is it really so important and so urgent and such a tactical advantage for him to broadcast to all of the nasty criminal types hanging out at Home Depot that he is armed? Is a gunfight or robbery at Home Depot really that probable? Really? Home Depot has that many nasty criminal types hanging around looking for a fight or to rob someone? Not any Home Depot I've been to but I haven't been to all of them.

Or OC'ing at Wendy's. Or the grocery store. Great. But again, are there so many criminal types, and is the risk of an incident so high at Wendy's or your local grocery store or anywhere else in your neighborhood so high that you get so much tactical advantage from broadcasting you are armed? I doubt it. Which means the author is talking himself into a hole...he goes on and on about how he wants to avoid a gunfight, yet somehow he keeps choosing to put himself in locations where there are so many criminal types around that a gunfight is likely. Well, which is it? If he really wanted to avoid a fight or an incident, wouldn't he just avoid those places where an incident were likely?

For me, any tactical advantage obtained from telling everyone I am armed is more than outweighed by the damage to my overall security profile. That's me. Someone asked why "exercising a right was dumb" and I replied that I could think of one reason why. Again, that's for me and my situation. My intent wasn't to get into an argument, and I think if anyone is implying that because I don't OC everywhere I go I'm somehow against guns and gun rights, or somehow against others OC'ing they should get their head examined because that's just ridiculous.

[Leader]

Again, "most people".

I have evaluated my situation. Where I live, where I go, who I associate with. I have determined that in my situation, OC is more of a risk than "hiding my teeth" to use the phrase from Venator12's quoted post. I take precautions. That's my choice.

The OC argument is a self-fulfilling argument. For example, the post Venator12 quoted. The author goes on an on about how he wants to OC because he wants to avoid a fight. He wants to avoid trouble. And so on. A constant show of force to make the other guy think twice. Fine.

BUT, that must mean that where he goes, a fight is probable, an incident is probable. That where this guy is going, a constant show of force is required. I think we can all agree, though, that for "most people" they don't spend their days in areas where a gun incident is probable. Possible, yes. Probable? Doubtful.

Take, for example, OC'ing in Home Depot. Great. No problems, go for it. But, according to the author quoted by Venator12, is it really so important and so urgent and such a tactical advantage for him to broadcast to all of the nasty criminal types hanging out at Home Depot that he is armed? Is a gunfight or robbery at Home Depot really that probable? Really? Home Depot has that many nasty criminal types hanging around looking for a fight or to rob someone? Not any Home Depot I've been to but I haven't been to all of them.

Or OC'ing at Wendy's. Or the grocery store. Great. But again, are there so many criminal types, and is the risk of an incident so high at Wendy's or your local grocery store or anywhere else in your neighborhood so high that you get so much tactical advantage from broadcasting you are armed? I doubt it. Which means the author is talking himself into a hole...he goes on and on about how he wants to avoid a gunfight, yet somehow he keeps choosing to put himself in locations where there are so many criminal types around that a gunfight is likely. Well, which is it? If he really wanted to avoid a fight or an incident, wouldn't he just avoid those places where an incident were likely?

For me, any tactical advantage obtained from telling everyone I am armed is more than outweighed by the damage to my overall security profile. That's me. Someone asked why "exercising a right was dumb" and I replied that I could think of one reason why. Again, that's for me and my situation. My intent wasn't to get into an argument, and I think if anyone is implying that because I don't OC everywhere I go I'm somehow against guns and gun rights, or somehow against others OC'ing they should get their head examined because that's just ridiculous.


And you feel the need to HIDE your gun when you go to these places so you can have an advantage over the BG??? You think you need a gun for protection in the same places you think open carry isn't needed because it is so safe.
People being assaulted by bad guys is the exception rather then the rule. If you hide your gun, it offers NO deterrent value at all. An openly carried firearm at least will deter *SOME* people from attacking you.

[ghostrider]

I think people should OC or CC depending on their own personal choice. I see little benefit in debating what "others" should do, and it just sounds petty. Do what you choose, and stand by your decision confidently. If others chose to criticize you for it, that's their problem. I think arguments against OC are just as silly as arguments against CC (especially since most of the are the same arguments).

If a CC'er feels he needs to justify his choice to OC'ers, then there are issues that he should deal with. Same for an OC'er who feels he needs to justify his choice to CC'ere. It's one thing if one position is being criticized, but to feel the need to justify your position just because someone else is expounding on theirs, just doesn't ring well.

[who dat]

And you feel the need to HIDE your gun when you go to these places so you can have an advantage over the BG??? You think you need a gun for protection in the same places you think open carry isn't needed because it is so safe.
People being assaulted by bad guys is the exception rather then the rule. If you hide your gun, it offers NO deterrent value at all. An openly carried firearm at least will deter *SOME* people from attacking you.
I think concealed carry, or hiding the gun does offer some deterrent, but only in states that allow concealed carry as the norm. If the bad guy doesn't know who has the gun, he may be less likely to cause harm. If he knows that nobody has the gun, then he's got an open season on everyone.

States like California, Illinois, Hawaii, and cities like DC all bear that out. The bad guys run rampant over the rights of the unarmed.

[Clipper]

Anti-OC types who feel compelled to post on OC forums know they're not going to change any minds here, they're no better than trolls. Quit feeding 'em...

[ghostrider]

I think concealed carry, or hiding the gun does offer some deterrent, but only in states that allow concealed carry as the norm. If the bad guy doesn't know who has the gun, he may be less likely to cause harm. If he knows that nobody has the gun, then he's got an open season on everyone.

States like California, Illinois, Hawaii, and cities like DC all bear that out. The bad guys run rampant over the rights of the unarmed.
I used to believe that CC was just such a deterrent, but when I started reading message boards I realized how many people are not aware that law abiding citizens can get CPL's in this state. My observation is that a lot of the criminal element don't pay much attention to such things.

[Done Deal]

Anti-OC types who feel compelled to post on OC forums know they're not going to change any minds here, they're no better than trolls. Quit feeding 'em...

Feeling a little dogmatic are we?


These forums are for the expression of opinions and facts alike.

It never hurts to expand ones horizons at all....just like you have the right to have a closed mind if you choose.

[dougwg]

And if anyone would know about being dogmatic, it's done deal.

[quarterhorsemen]

OPSEC, for one.

I see you OC'ing. I follow you home. I wait. You leave to go to work, etc. I go in your home, and take every gun you aren't carrying, along with anything else you have of value that I and my buddies can carry. If you have anything less than a $2000 AMSEC BF series gun safe or something very similar or better, I take all those guns, too, especially if I know you're at work for 8 hours and I can spend my time hacking at your safe.

Or, I see you OC'ing. It is a good bet you've got a gun in your vehicle as a back up. I break into your vehicle, and take that gun. I don't need to go to your house, I just need a quick, untraceable weapon and the backup in your vehicle will do just fine.

Or, I don't see you OC'ing, but I see you get out of a vehicle covered in pro-gun bumper stickers. There's a good bet there's a gun in that vehicle (especially if I just saw you go into a bank, or a bar, or a concert, or other exclusion zone). I take that gun.

People make WAY to much out of criminals picking easier targets if they think someone is armed, or make WAY too much out of the conventional wisdom that "criminals are dumb". The truth is that a bonehead criminal may be deterred (a junkie looking for a fix, etc), but a determined, halfway observant and intelligent criminal probably won't be, because there are simply too many everyday life situations where the risk of being shot at is very very small whether the victim is a gun owner or not. Remember, illegal guns on the street had to come from somewhere, and there's a really good bet the criminal didn't get them from a FFL.

Yes, open carry is a right you are welcome to exercise. For me, broadcasting to the general public that I have enough disposable income to spend it on firearms is not worth the breakdown in OPSEC. I know you will disagree, that's fine. To each, their own.



You follow me home and wait for me to leave, then go inside my wife would blast you with the 20ga. If my wife isnt home then the kid would. Can't do much more when your dead.

[Hcidem]

Legal yes, but can you get away with it? No. I was told by a LEO that if he saw someone walking down the street with a pistol on his hip that person would be arrested for causing a public disturbance.

I really wish folks would name the LEOs who say these kind of things. These comments should always be "on the record."

Private citizens who don't feed their children from our tax monies are perfectly free to make ridiculous statements like this, IMO. On the other hand, LEOs and other employees must be held accountable for such tripe. If they want to eat from our taxes, they should be familiar with both the proper application of law as well as what these statutes actually state.

***

By the way...quarterhorsemen , glad to see you back in the saddle. I noticed you hadn't posted for a while here.

[Done Deal]

I really wish folks would name the LEOs who say these kind of things.

These comments should always be "on the record."




But, that would require posters to be accountable for the factual basis and accuracy of what they post now wouldn't it?

I am not holding my breath....

[quarterhorsemen]

By the way...quarterhorsemen , glad to see you back in the saddle. I noticed you hadn't posted for a while here.[/QUOTE]

Thanks H
I'm only on when at work, I have been on vacation

[Hcidem]

I used to believe that CC was just such a deterrent, but when I started reading message boards I realized how many people are not aware that law abiding citizens can get CPL's in this state. My observation is that a lot of the criminal element don't pay much attention to such things.

I think this points out a side benefit of supporting open carry. Our neighbors are frequently unaware of how they can defend themselves. If they encounter an OCer, they might think "that's not for me," but they might also think "but what can I do to protect MYself."

OC's primary purpose is self defense. The side benefit of public awareness cannot be ignored, however.