What's your thoughts on self defense insurance

[Homestead]

I went with Second call defense and got their best package. Though I feel it's a shame to have to, I feel a little better and I intend on keeping it. I didn't like the offerings other companies had.

I was wondering how many people get this type of insurance. If you don't believe in it, why?

[pgm74]

I see no reason not to have some coverage. However, honestly I'm just starting to look into options myself after recently hearing a real story of how much someone paid an attorney to defend themselves against a civil suit in a blatantly obvious self defense shooting. This person wasn't even arrested after the shooting because it was so clearly self-defense, but then still paid 1/2 the value of my home to an attorney to block a civil suit.

I'm not sure the 50K cap on criminal defense under the SecondCall plans would be enough coverage for trial attorney. Again, I just started looking at options, but am leaning toward the Firearms Legal Protection plan that sponsored Shyster's seminar a while back due to the advertised uncapped attorney coverage and plan pricing. Although SecondCall looks like it has better coverage in some other areas. Lots to think about when looking at these plans. I didn't have a chance to go to Shyster's seminar but probably would've been good.

I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on these plans too. Thanks for starting this thread, Homestead.

[Eric D]

For the insurance experts, if one has a home, wouldn't an umbrella policy be all one needs?

[somecrazygreek]

I feel like if I buy self defense insurance, pay monthly for 50 years, and never get sued for anything? At the end of those 50 years, I'd be spending more than it would cost to get a good lawyer without insurance...so it's pointless to me.

[Warhorse]

I feel like if I buy self defense insurance, pay monthly for 50 years, and never get sued for anything? At the end of those 50 years, I'd be spending more than it would cost to get a good lawyer without insurance...so it's pointless to me.
True, if you can immediately handle the attorney fee's, otherwise the insurance is an excellent option.

[Eric D]

I feel like if I buy self defense insurance, pay monthly for 50 years, and never get sued for anything? At the end of those 50 years, I'd be spending more than it would cost to get a good lawyer without insurance...so it's pointless to me.

Again, I'm no expert, but I believe what you are suggesting is known as "Self Insured", like what big corporations do. If you have millions this might be a good strategy. If not, what happens if you have something happen today? Do you have the funds to pay a lawyer? If not, this is the whole reason for having insurance, to cover yourself now, when you don't have the resources.

[somecrazygreek]

Again, I'm no expert, but I believe what you are suggesting is known as "Self Insured", like what big corporations do. If you have millions this might be a good strategy. If not, what happens if you have something happen today? Do you have the funds to pay a lawyer? If not, this is the whole reason for having insurance, to cover yourself now, when you don't have the resources.
Realistically how many people who have to use lethal force get sued and actually need a lawyer? I'm actually asking, because I'm not sure if it's common or not.

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[pgm74]

Realistically how many people who have to use lethal force get sued and actually need a lawyer? I'm actually asking, because I'm not sure if it's common or not.

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I think if I shoot someone there's a 99% chance I'm getting arrested regardless of circumstances. After the investigation maybe they won't charge me. But since I'm not planning on talking without a lawyer, I'll need one long enough just to get out on bail at the very least. Unless I want to sit in jail for weeks or more until the investigation is over. That's best case. But I also can't assume that just because I'm justified in shooting someone I won't have to be defended in front of a jury.

[Warhorse]

If you are involved in a shooting, you would be well advised to get an attorney right away.

[Ruger]

For the insurance experts, if one has a home, wouldn't an umbrella policy be all one needs?

It may!
"Liability Coverage Covers losses for which an insured is legally liable. For homeowners insurance,
liability coverage protects you against financial loss if you are sued and found legally responsible for
someone else’s injury or property damage."

The kicker with H/O is that once you involve them you've given then the right to settle the matter! If they come up with a settlement that you don't agree with they can deny any further coverage and leave you swinging in the wind. Remember this is civil and not criminal.

[giraffejeff]

I would want to see an example of the company actually spending money to defend a case. Insurance cannot cover an illegal act, therefore the company would be able to get out from any claims that come their way fairly easy. If the shooting even has a hint of being unlawful they will tell you to pound sand. Basically if you have lawsuit where you would need this coverage, you already screwed up and they will find an easy way to not spend any money.

[Shyster]

Homeowner's insurance MAY cover you with regard to civil liability but absolutely WILL NOT cover criminal defense.

Second Call is a joke. The only decent ones (in order) are Firearms Legal Protection, USCCA or ACLDN.

A SD shooting that goes to trial will cost you anywhere from $35-100k, depending on circumstances. Attorneys will expect to be paid in advance or, if willing to accept payment terms will require multiple cosigners who are solvent.

[Ricebrnr]

For the insurance experts, if one has a home, wouldn't an umbrella policy be all one needs?

My understanding from my agent is my personal liability policies don't cover "intentional" acts. Thus deliberately shooting someone even in self defense would not be covered. YMMV

As for self defense policies, there are more choices today than even a few years ago. The one I like most at the moment is one I learned about at Rick Ecktor's Self Defense Legal Aftermath Seminar (highly recommended BTW).

https://www.firearmslegal.com/

Reasonable premiums, protections start immediately upon arrest vs some others where you need to win in court and then an internal review in order to be reimbursed.

My only qualm so far is it only covers firearms, not any other self defense (i.e. knives, etc).

Oh and BTW if it helps Jim's a member attorney there...

[Cocowheats]

A flaw, if you will, with the majority of these insurance policies is that they only cover you if you can legally posses the firearm where you used it....doesn't matter if it was a justifiable use of force.

Examples:
-Shooting happens in a hospital(or any PFZ for that matter) and you run inside and shoot the scum bag...might not be covered now.
-Conceal carry on your private property with no CPL while doing yard work...altercation occurs and you draw and shoot from the sidewalk....might not be covered now.


Basically any situation you can imagine where a court would question the legality of you possessing a firearm...sounds crazy but I could imagine it happening to somebody.

[Homestead]

I see no reason not to have some coverage. However, honestly I'm just starting to look into options myself after recently hearing a real story of how much someone paid an attorney to defend themselves against a civil suit in a blatantly obvious self defense shooting. This person wasn't even arrested after the shooting because it was so clearly self-defense, but then still paid 1/2 the value of my home to an attorney to block a civil suit.

I'm not sure the 50K cap on criminal defense under the SecondCall plans would be enough coverage for trial attorney. Again, I just started looking at options, but am leaning toward the Firearms Legal Protection plan that sponsored Shyster's seminar a while back due to the advertised uncapped attorney coverage and plan pricing. Although SecondCall looks like it has better coverage in some other areas. Lots to think about when looking at these plans. I didn't have a chance to go to Shyster's seminar but probably would've been good.

I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on these plans too. Thanks for starting this thread, Homestead.
No problem friend. I'll look into other places as well. Been with second call for over 2 years now. Got to talk with the guy that started it, super cool guy!

[Homestead]

I feel like if I buy self defense insurance, pay monthly for 50 years, and never get sued for anything? At the end of those 50 years, I'd be spending more than it would cost to get a good lawyer without insurance...so it's pointless to me.

I can totally understand your position. :) Me? I am low income and don't have money laying around for bail and an attorney. It really sucks I have to buy insurance based off of fear, but so does being caught up in the legal system...

[Homestead]

It may!
"Liability Coverage Covers losses for which an insured is legally liable. For homeowners insurance,
liability coverage protects you against financial loss if you are sued and found legally responsible for
someone else’s injury or property damage."

The kicker with H/O is that once you involve them you've given then the right to settle the matter! If they come up with a settlement that you don't agree with they can deny any further coverage and leave you swinging in the wind. Remember this is civil and not criminal.

But home owners insurance wouldn't cover someone if they use their firearm in self defense out in public, right?

[Homestead]

Homeowner's insurance MAY cover you with regard to civil liability but absolutely WILL NOT cover criminal defense.

Second Call is a joke. The only decent ones (in order) are Firearms Legal Protection, USCCA or ACLDN.

A SD shooting that goes to trial will cost you anywhere from $35-100k, depending on circumstances. Attorneys will expect to be paid in advance or, if willing to accept payment terms will require multiple cosigners who are solvent.

Care to tell me why Second call sucks? I ask because I really want to know, not being defensive or anything. :)

[Homestead]

A flaw, if you will, with the majority of these insurance policies is that they only cover you if you can legally posses the firearm where you used it....doesn't matter if it was a justifiable use of force.

Examples:
-Shooting happens in a hospital(or any PFZ for that matter) and you run inside and shoot the scum bag...might not be covered now.
-Conceal carry on your private property with no CPL while doing yard work...altercation occurs and you draw and shoot from the sidewalk....might not be covered now.


Basically any situation you can imagine where a court would question the legality of you possessing a firearm...sounds crazy but I could imagine it happening to somebody.
Lol, I agree! I don't put nothing past over zealous prosecutors. Never know which one is or isn't till you defend yourself and or others...

[somecrazygreek]

I can totally understand your position. :) Me? I am low income and don't have money laying around for bail and an attorney. It really sucks I have to buy insurance based off of fear, but so does being caught up in the legal system...
Oh I definitely don't have money laying around for an attorney or anything. But I think I'd rather take my chances than pay out a ton of money in insurance I may never need. I know a ton of CPL holders and as far as I know, none of them have insurance.

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[Homestead]

Oh I definitely don't have money laying around for an attorney or anything. But I think I'd rather take my chances than pay out a ton of money in insurance I may never need. I know a ton of CPL holders and as far as I know, none of them have insurance.

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It's all good friend, same here, I don't know anyone who has it and I don't fault them for not having it. :)

[fozzy71]

I can totally understand your position. :) Me? I am low income and don't have money laying around for bail and an attorney. It really sucks I have to buy insurance based off of fear, but so does being caught up in the legal system...


Oh I definitely don't have money laying around for an attorney or anything. But I think I'd rather take my chances than pay out a ton of money in insurance I may never need. I know a ton of CPL holders and as far as I know, none of them have insurance.

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I pay $18/mo for FLP. That is $216/yr or $10.8k in your 50yr example (I am 40+ so I won't be around in 50 years). Small price to pay for the peace of mind since I know if I need to use my gun a lawyer will likely cost more than 10k, which I don't have liquid anyway. It is cheaper than the life insurance I pay for but will never benefit from myself.

[SteveS]

Here's an interesting article on a program in Texas.

http://www.thetrace.org/2015/08/texas-law-shield-concealed-carry-insurance-class-action-lawsuit/

[Tallbear]

Oh I definitely don't have money laying around for an attorney or anything. But I think I'd rather take my chances than pay out a ton of money in insurance I may never need. I know a ton of CPL holders and as far as I know, none of them have insurance.

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As with any insurance ....... You "hope" you never need it and are glad you have it when you "do" need it.

[Ruger]

But home owners insurance wouldn't cover someone if they use their firearm in self defense out in public, right?

Not necessarily.........Under the liability section it doesn't state or define where the liability is extended, could be on his property or anywhere in the world unless defined otherwise.

Note that both Shyster and I used the same "May" YMMV

I've heard agents tell their clients all kinds of things that are simply not true! One well know Dearborn agent told his client that his loss was not covered because it was an intentional act! He started a fire in his fireplace and failed to open the flu causing his home to fill up with smoke that left it uninhabitable.
Had this guy not been persistent and smart enough to make a call to the parent co. he may have just paid the $30K in damages himself.
Now as for it being an intentional act in a self defense shooting........the insurance co. would sit on the fence until the criminal aspect was resolved. Then if a claim was filed for defense they'd give it to one of their gifted in-house attorneys to advise on coverage and after he/she was thoroughly convinced that "This is way out of my expertise" it would be sent out to a firm that specializes on more confusion and after weeks, maybe months they'd issue a letter of defense or one of denial to the named insured.

[Homestead]

Not necessarily.........Under the liability section it doesn't state or define where the liability is extended, could be on his property or anywhere in the world unless defined otherwise.

Note that both Shyster and I used the same "May" YMMV

I've heard agents tell their clients all kinds of things that are simply not true! One well know Dearborn agent told his client that his loss was not covered because it was an intentional act! He started a fire in his fireplace and and failed to open the flu causing his home to fill up with smoke that left it uninhabitable.
Had this guy not been persistent and smart enough to make a call to the parent co. he may have just paid the $30K in damages himself.
Now as for it being an intentional act in a self defense shooting........the insurance co. would sit on the fence until the criminal aspect was resolved. Then if a claim was filed for defense they'd give it to one of their gifted in-house attorneys to advise on coverage and after he/she was thoroughly convinced that "This is way out of my expertise" it would be sent out to a firm that specializes on more confusion and after weeks, maybe months they'd issue a letter of defense or one of denial to the named insured.

I sure hate to sound like a brainless consumer... I just got the insurance primarily for the bail, the rest (If covered) is an extra I guess. I don't have the attention span to keep up with the legal mumbo jumbo...

[Ruger]

I sure hate to sound like a brainless consumer... I just got the insurance primarily for the bail, the rest (If covered) is an extra I guess. I don't have the attention span to keep up with the legal mumbo jumbo...


Me either! :facepalm:

[Homestead]

Me either! :facepalm:

Just can't win it appears... (Warm smiles) :)

[giraffejeff]

I sure hate to sound like a brainless consumer... I just got the insurance primarily for the bail, the rest (If covered) is an extra I guess. I don't have the attention span to keep up with the legal mumbo jumbo...

The bail on an open murder case would be more than the $25,000 for a bondsman. That is if you get bail. and even if it was 250,000 you would still need to put up collateral for a bond that size. I would know, I'm a bondsman.

[Bogartis]

Don't worry if you cannot afford a lawyer, you can get a Public Defender, it's no big deal. The law is the law and if you are in the right, you have nothing to worry about.

[Shyster]

Care to tell me why Second call sucks? I ask because I really want to know, not being defensive or anything. :)

You need to look at coverage limitations. Maximum of $50k is less than any other plan. Not a good value at all

[hunterspirit]

As a casual onlooker interested in coverage, it would appear "Uncapped" is more better

[giraffejeff]

Don't worry if you cannot afford a lawyer, you can get a Public Defender, it's no big deal. The law is the law and if you are in the right, you have nothing to worry about.
I hope that was sarcasm. That is bad advice.

[watch guy]

I have life , car, home, and health insurance so I would not be without coverage since I have a CPL and you never know when you are going to use your firearm in self defense. I have insurance from USCCA. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ I have $1/.1M of coverage civil suits, lawyers fees, bail, and compensation while in court. They also provide attorneys in my area for legal defense. First thing I would do is call 911 and then my attorney and not say anything without my attorney present. Then call USCCA to have my defense shield initiated. Sure it costs about $275/year but it is great security in case I need it.

[Super Trucker]

Realistically how many people who have to use lethal force get sued and actually need a lawyer? I'm actually asking, because I'm not sure if it's common or not.

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How many people have their house burn to the ground?

Do you have home owners insurance?

[Ruger]

I have life , car, home, and health insurance so I would not be without coverage since I have a CPL and you never know when you are going to use your firearm in self defense. I have insurance from USCCA. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ I have $1/.1M of coverage civil suits, lawyers fees, bail, and compensation while in court. They also provide attorneys in my area for legal defense. First thing I would do is call 911 and then my attorney and not say anything without my attorney present. Then call USCCA to have my defense shield initiated. Sure it costs about $275/year but it is great security in case I need it.

Even at $347@year its cheap insurance! :cheers:

[nrich1979]

Homeowner's insurance MAY cover you with regard to civil liability but absolutely WILL NOT cover criminal defense.

Second Call is a joke. The only decent ones (in order) are Firearms Legal Protection, USCCA or ACLDN.

A SD shooting that goes to trial will cost you anywhere from $35-100k, depending on circumstances. Attorneys will expect to be paid in advance or, if willing to accept payment terms will require multiple cosigners who are solvent.

Aren't there circumstances where the plaintiff pays for the cost of the legal defense?

[nrich1979]

Homeowner's insurance MAY cover you with regard to civil liability but absolutely WILL NOT cover criminal defense.

Second Call is a joke. The only decent ones (in order) are Firearms Legal Protection, USCCA or ACLDN.

A SD shooting that goes to trial will cost you anywhere from $35-100k, depending on circumstances. Attorneys will expect to be paid in advance or, if willing to accept payment terms will require multiple cosigners who are solvent.

am I allowed to choose my own attny if I have insurance or will they designate someone to represent me?

[watch guy]

am I allowed to choose my own attny if I have insurance or will they designate someone to represent me?

USCCA provides a list of attorney's in your area. I contacted one and provided my info so they have on record in case they are needed. I happened to meet the attorney as he bought something I had listed here on MGO.

[Shyster]

am I allowed to choose my own attny if I have insurance or will they designate someone to represent me?

USCCA and ACLDN have lists of approved attorneys you choose from. The problem with their programs is the coverage limitations. Both will make an initial payment to hire an attorney but if it goes to trial YOU are responsible for legal fees--they only compensate to the coverage limit for legal fees IF YOU WIN.

Firearms Legal Protection has uncapped legal fees and pays the attorney directly so no out-of-pocket costs but for your premium. With FLP you get an attorney they've selected for his/her expertise. In SE Michigan (and most of the rest of the state for that matter) you would get myself or Terry Johnson.

Note: I'm on the list for all three so I have no dog in this fight but FLP is flat out a superior product.

[2571]

How is a violation of ccw laws a, 'flaw"?

[Homestead]

You need to look at coverage limitations. Maximum of $50k is less than any other plan. Not a good value at all

Okay, thanks for the info friend, I'll definitely look into it. :)

[Homestead]

Man, I love the feedback! Thanks so much! :D I will do some research based on your input. I will however convey this to the President of Second call and see if he can improve things. I talked to him before just shooting the sh%t and it was bar none a nice conversation. :)

[giraffejeff]

So I wanted to share something with the class after I reviewed the various policies. I am concerned with the illusion that they create with the bond coverage and hope to help the folks here prepare for that aspect of a criminal case. I am a licensed bondsman.
Most of the policies here do not cover a bond of the size for a self defense shooting. The biggest I found was 25,000 to pay the premium for a $250,000 bond. That is great and all but it leaves out quite a bit of the process.
Let's assume that you used your pistol to defend yourself and end up arrested and arraigned for assault with a deadly weapon (luckily for you the other guy lived and is in the hospital licking his wounds)
The judge sets your bond at $100,000 cash or surety. Your family can either bring 100 grand to the court (we all have that sort of money right???) or you can call someone like me and use the premium coverage that your self defense policy has and pay me $10,000.
As a bondsman i have a question regarding these policies:
1: when will I get a check from the insurance company? I have to account for my bonds written, I can't delay my payments to my surety company. If it is within a week or two that would be fine. If it is at the conclusion of the case we have a problem. I plan to reach out to these companies and ask these questions beforehand, with hopes of reducing time spent in jail.

lets assume that I could have a check cut for me tomorrow, great. That issue is aside, moving on.
Who would cosign the bond for you? You have to have somebody on the outside sign the paperwork and take on financial liability if you fail to appear (FTA) This can be 1 person or it can be 12, depends on the case and on the signers.

What about collateral? What would you and your family be willing to put up to guarantee that you will not FTA? For a $100k some bondsman are gonna want a house, some will just want a smile. Let's say you want to use your house. Where is the deed? How much do you owe on it? Who is on the deed? These are questions that your spouse or family member that calls me should know. It can't hurt to have a "what if folder" with this info, numbers to call (let your boss know you will miss work, the number to file a claim with your homeowners or one of these policies) etc. That way you can say "Hun go into the basement and get the lime green folder, follow those directions" It might make things smoother for you and your loved one.

i'm not saying that these policies are worthless, just know what you are signing up for. Read the terms and conditions of the policy, ask for a copy of the policy. Understand that one of these does not let you slap the card on the desk at booking and walk out, their are many other steps that require help from the outside.

PS: The jails are recorded, don't say anything about your case. you have the right to remain silent,use it.

[pgm74]

Firearms Legal Protection has uncapped legal fees and pays the attorney directly so no out-of-pocket costs but for your premium. With FLP you get an attorney they've selected for his/her expertise. In SE Michigan (and most of the rest of the state for that matter) you would get myself or Terry Johnson.

Note: I'm on the list for all three so I have no dog in this fight but FLP is flat out a superior product.


SOLD. That's good enough for me. I've been comparing all the options today for myself and was leaning toward FLP due to the no cap. Shyster's endorsement seals it. Just paid for a year. Thanks.

Just like everything else I've been putting into my self-defense bag-of-tricks, I hope I never have to use it. But it's been on my mind lately and I'm happy I've finally pulled the trigger on some sort of legal defense financial protection.

[partdeux]

USCCA and ACLDN have lists of approved attorneys you choose from. The problem with their programs is the coverage limitations. Both will make an initial payment to hire an attorney but if it goes to trial YOU are responsible for legal fees--they only compensate to the coverage limit for legal fees IF YOU WIN.

Firearms Legal Protection has uncapped legal fees and pays the attorney directly so no out-of-pocket costs but for your premium. With FLP you get an attorney they've selected for his/her expertise. In SE Michigan (and most of the rest of the state for that matter) you would get myself or Terry Johnson.

Note: I'm on the list for all three so I have no dog in this fight but FLP is flat out a superior product.

How is a determination made if FLP will take the case? In the seminar today, husband used his firearm in self defense as he feared for his life. His wife finished off the bad guy after he was no longer a threat. Will they provide aid to the wife?

[Shyster]

How is a determination made if FLP will take the case? In the seminar today, husband used his firearm in self defense as he feared for his life. His wife finished off the bad guy after he was no longer a threat. Will they provide aid to the wife?

Family memberships available

[partdeux]

Family memberships available

Assume wife has a membership, family or otherwise. Her use of a firearm was not self defense, his was, but hers was not. What if anything will the insurance cover and how is that determination made?

[Cocowheats]

How is a violation of ccw laws a, 'flaw"?

While ignorance of the law is no excuse; we all can probably admit that there are simply too many laws to know them all...and that's just at a federal level. Add all the laws of all 50 states and there is simple no way for any one person to know them all. With all those laws, isn't their the potential to break one of these laws and not even know it? Again, ignorance is no excuse yet none of us are all knowing either.

And then we have the examples I left in my orginal post. One where doing the "right" thing could put you in a legal violation(the PFZ example) and another where the altercation pushed the guy from a place he could legally conceal carry to a location he could not legally conceal carry(his lawn to the sidewalk) ...those violation(s) could mean no insurance coverage.

It's just something to be aware of...I'm not saying this sort of insurance is bad...this is just something I've noticed about these insurers that I think people should be aware of. These companies might not cover you if you are doing something wrong(ie illegal)...even if it's morally right yet legally wrong.

At the end of the day, no insurer is going to be able to cover every possible scenario...doesnt mean you shouldn't be aware of what they will and will not cover.

[partdeux]

How does this plan compare to Citizens legal defense network?
https://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/

[Ricebrnr]

How does this plan compare to Citizens legal defense network?
https://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/

CLDN:

Network members, by virtue of their membership, are entitled to up to $10,000 fee deposit initially paid to their lawyer after a self-defense incident, to case review by one of the Network experts and have access to contact information for Network-affiliated attorneys and expert witnesses. Additional funding for legal defense costs is made available after case review by the Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network’s Advisory Board, currently comprised of Massad Ayoob, John Farnam, James Fleming, Tom Givens, Emanuel Kapelsohn and Dennis Tueller. These industry leaders generously participate in decisions about the merits of the case and help the Network guarantee that Legal Defense Funds are not used to defend acts that are not consistent with the Network’s mission.

No thanks compared to :

FLP

This plan protects ... and pays for uncapped attorney fees for both criminal and civil proceedings associated with that member’s lawful use of a firearm in self-defense of their person or property.

[plumbum]

USCCA and ACLDN have lists of approved attorneys you choose from. The problem with their programs is the coverage limitations. Both will make an initial payment to hire an attorney but if it goes to trial YOU are responsible for legal fees--they only compensate to the coverage limit for legal fees IF YOU WIN.

Firearms Legal Protection has uncapped legal fees and pays the attorney directly so no out-of-pocket costs but for your premium. With FLP you get an attorney they've selected for his/her expertise. In SE Michigan (and most of the rest of the state for that matter) you would get myself or Terry Johnson.

Note: I'm on the list for all three so I have no dog in this fight but FLP is flat out a superior product.


Being curious. Have any of these 3 companies actually paid out, rendered services in a SDS?
Or are they all so new that its still an unproven service? i.e. no real examples of them paying out.?

[Shyster]

Being curious. Have any of these 3 companies actually paid out, rendered services in a SDS?
Or are they all so new that its still an unproven service? i.e. no real examples of them paying out.?
The guy who got convicted in the road rage shooting in Howell over the summer had USCCA. USCCA paid out $7,500. Problem: total legal bill came to almost $75,000.00 and since he lost USCCA did not pay-the family had to.

[hunterspirit]

That seems to be a major difference.

[Flash-hider]

The guy who got convicted in the road rage shooting in Howell over the summer had USCCA. USCCA paid out $7,500. Problem: total legal bill came to almost $75,000.00 and since he lost USCCA did not pay-the family had to.

Strictly hypothetical, if he had won would USCCA had paid the entire legal cost? For that matter will any self defense insurance pay the entire legal bill for criminal or civil defense or can one expect to have out pocket expenses anyway? This is assuming it can be proved to be a good shoot.

[fozzy71]

The guy who got convicted in the road rage shooting in Howell over the summer had USCCA. USCCA paid out $7,500. Problem: total legal bill came to almost $75,000.00 and since he lost USCCA did not pay-the family had to.

Would FLP have covered it all if he lost?

[Quads]

What I think would be helpful information is known cases, that have gone to trial, where the shooter / CPL holder acted in self defense. First hand information from the CPL holder.

Secondly, is FPL an actual insurance policy, or prepaid legal? If it is an insurance policy, am I given a copy of said policy, with me listed as the beneficiary? Just as I am in my homeowners or auto or other insurance.

[thamm]

FLP is a pre-paid legal service.

[Homestead]

Homeowner's insurance MAY cover you with regard to civil liability but absolutely WILL NOT cover criminal defense.

Second Call is a joke. The only decent ones (in order) are Firearms Legal Protection, USCCA or ACLDN.

A SD shooting that goes to trial will cost you anywhere from $35-100k, depending on circumstances. Attorneys will expect to be paid in advance or, if willing to accept payment terms will require multiple cosigners who are solvent.

Okay, I have been trying to look at the difference between Second call and FLP. You are right about the cap. One question, how much is bail normally? It seems that second call is better on that one. Just asking before I cancel my plan and go with FLP. I did notice to, half the price!

[Shyster]

Would FLP have covered it all if he lost?

FLP is NOT a reimbursement plan--they pay the attorney directly so yes they would have paid.

[Shyster]

Okay, I have been trying to look at the difference between Second call and FLP. You are right about the cap. One question, how much is bail normally? It seems that second call is better on that one. Just asking before I cancel my plan and go with FLP. I did notice to, half the price!

Bond in a 1st degree murder case will not be available at all. In a 2nd degree, manslaughter case, etc. it could be as high as $500,000.

FLP has established a relationship with two local bail bond agencies to get bonds posted and will cosign.

[Homestead]

Bond in a 1st degree murder case will not be available at all. In a 2nd degree, manslaughter case, etc. it could be as high as $500,000.

FLP has established a relationship with two local bail bond agencies to get bonds posted and will cosign.

Still looking over FLP, I may just have both FLP and Second call because thus far it appears FLP doesn't cover certain things I would like to have such as Civil suit damages and accidental shooting damages. I know it's overkill, but I feel strongly about being prepared in a backwards society in which we live...

[Shyster]

Still looking over FLP, I may just have both FLP and Second call because thus far it appears FLP doesn't cover certain things I would like to have such as Civil suit damages and accidental shooting damages. I know it's overkill, but I feel strongly about being prepared in a backwards society in which we live...

Not sure what you are looking at but FLP covers civil suit defense. In addition, the coverage includes defense for ANY charge relating to firearms, such as brandishing.

[Samseven]

:-P:bowdown::beer:

[nrich1979]

I actually signed up for FLP for 280 bucks for that first year and 240 every year after it.. it's not an expense I'm that worried about incurring..

I figure if I can't afford 240 a year I should trade in my 45acp's for a pellet gun..

[JasonJ]

Not to be rude but hahaha...I would love to have a legal expert represent me with a name like Shyster :grin:

Sure.. but when you meet him in court, he goes by Jim, or Mr. Makowski, I think. lol

[elwarpo]

Looking at FLP, if besides coverage for extra family members and minor protection (no married, no kids) is there any advantage of the family plan over the premium individual plan? It says spouse, but will it cover my girlfriend I live with?

[Rich1028]

whats everyone's opinion on CCW Safe?
http://ccwsafe.com/

[Rod M1]

Grate thread.

[donald150]

I'm glad I came across this thread tonight. I've been thinking about joining USCCA for a long time but I've never made it a priority and I haven't done it.

I had never heard of FLP until tonight. It seems like they do offer a better service.
Shyster makes a good case for FLP and since I value his opinion I decided tonight to join FLP. :thup:

[dmd7765]

I joined FLP on the recommendation of Shyster and Garland Defense about 2 months ago


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Eric D]

I joined FLP on the recommendation of Shyster and Garland Defense about 2 months ago

How long did it take to receive your official paperwork from FLP?

[dmd7765]

About 10 days


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[nrich1979]

How long did it take to receive your official paperwork from FLP?

It wasn't long at all.. Maybe 2 weeks tops

[Eric D]

It wasn't long at all.. Maybe 2 weeks tops

Yeah, it was pretty quick. I received my package. I may need an lawyer to explain the contract however.

[donald150]

Received my packet today. :thup:

[Gray Man]

"What's your thoughts on self defense insurance".

I carry it. If you carry a firearm legally for duty or self defense, you should have insurance.

[Dwight]

I never thought about having a legal service on standby, but after reading this thread, I decided it was something I needed. Just ordered FLP on Shyster's recommendation.

It took my less than a week to receive my paperwork.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RobDog]

Shyster

So will FLP cover an individual who used his firearm for self defense in a posted "no carry" zone? For instance at a mall, store, restaurant etc?

[Cocowheats]

I notice Larry Vickers is endorsing "CCW Safe" for this sort of insurance these days...

[Ricebrnr]

Shyster

So will FLP cover an individual who used his firearm for self defense in a posted "no carry" zone? For instance at a mall, store, restaurant etc?

See posts # 60 & 63 above.

"FLP covers civil suit defense. In addition, the coverage includes defense for ANY charge relating to firearms"

[donald150]

Shyster

So will FLP cover an individual who used his firearm for self defense in a posted "no carry" zone? For instance at a mall, store, restaurant etc?

From what I've read in my contract, I'd say your screwed if your in a "pistol free zone" or some place your prohibited from having a gun.

The way I read it, you can't be breaking the law at the time and expect coverage.

[Jdmartin]

Looks like FLP will only pay a bail bond up to $5K......so I assume any bail that exceeds $50k will have to be paid solely by the insured?

[erict]

Had anyone heard of this insurance company?

http://ccwsafe.com/mobile-home/

[intheburbs]

Seems that ccwsafe just posted a bond for a member that was $500,000. Bond fee is 10%, and non refundable. For those that learned math using common core, that's $50k they paid that they're not getting back.

Source is from their site, not sure how to verify indepently.

http://ccwsafe.com/the-anatomy-of-a-bond/?utm_source=CCW+Safe+Newsletter&utm_campaign=1b391c28c3-Anatomy_of_a_Bond2_7_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a090be4da1-1b391c28c3-337587341

[Snowy.vtwin]

Seems that ccwsafe just posted a bond for a member that was $500,000. Bond fee is 10%, and non refundable. For those that learned math using common core, that's $50k they paid that they're not getting back.

Source is from their site, not sure how to verify indepently.

http://ccwsafe.com/the-anatomy-of-a-bond/?utm_source=CCW+Safe+Newsletter&utm_campaign=1b391c28c3-Anatomy_of_a_Bond2_7_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a090be4da1-1b391c28c3-337587341

I was just reviewing the ccwsafe website yesterday.... I was somewhat suspicious due to the relatively low cost ... but was not able to find any negative reviews....

[Cocowheats]

From what I've read in my contract, I'd say your screwed if your in a "pistol free zone" or some place your prohibited from having a gun.

The way I read it, you can't be breaking the law at the time and expect coverage.

I asked this same question at a FLP seminar....

You are correct. You have to be able to legally posses the firearm where the instance occurred.


Examples of how this could go bad for somebody:
1. You do not have a CPL but legally CC carry on your private property. Lets say you are out doing yard work and a fight breaks out between you and some scum bag. You end up on the sidewalk(due to the physical fight). At this point you decide you are in fear of your life and/or great bodily injury so you draw your concealed firearm and shoot(from the sidewalk that you where forced onto). You may now not covered...


2. You see a guy walk into the post office with a rifle and seconds later you here rifle shots going off accompanied by screams and frantic people rushing out. You decide to run in with your pistol to try and end the madness. You happen to end the madness with your pistol...You are a hero but your insurance may not cover you because you ignored federal law...Morally right but legally wrong=No insurance coverage.

That being said, lets face it, insurance of any assortment typically does not cover every single instance that could occur. This is why you should dig deep and know what your insurance will and will not cover(and all the grey areas). I would say my examples above are gray areas and maybe a bit extreme but still plausible situations.

[Cocowheats]

I was just reviewing the ccwsafe website yesterday.... I was somewhat suspicious due to the relatively low cost ... but was not able to find any negative reviews....

Larry Vickers is endorsing it if it makes you feel any better...:hide:

[Snowy.vtwin]

I did not know.....


.... successfully argue their claim to self-defense immunity at trial, the party suing them is subject to having to pay the defender’s attorney’s fees and other legal expenses. This rule applies in sixteen states, including Alaska, Florida, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan ...

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/self-defense-immunity-laws-which-states-protect-you-best/

Seems like a civil suit plaintiff would be at a huge financial risk if no criminal charges were filed... so who is pushing the civil cases I keep hearing about.... lawyers? Even if they loose they get paid .....:score:

Is there any info on the percentage of civil suits that are dismissed in Michigan where there are no criminal charges in a self-defense shooting? Even if the dismissal rate is high I think insurance is a good idea. If nothing more it would be a real time-saver for folks who do not regularly engage the legal system. And of course, there could be a civil suit over collateral property damage, etc.

[Str8 Shooter]

Homeowner's insurance MAY cover you with regard to civil liability but absolutely WILL NOT cover criminal defense.

Second Call is a joke. The only decent ones (in order) are Firearms Legal Protection, USCCA or ACLDN.

A SD shooting that goes to trial will cost you anywhere from $35-100k, depending on circumstances. Attorneys will expect to be paid in advance or, if willing to accept payment terms will require multiple cosigners who are solvent.

Thanks for the recommendation. I just signed up for the Premium Individual coverage with FLP. BTW, my mother's maiden name is the same as your last name :grin:

[polishnightmare]

Shyster: What about this one? armedcitizensnetwork

[fozzy71]

Shyster: What about this one? armedcitizensnetwork

Isn't that actually ACLDN he mentions in the quoted post above yours?

[clinta]

All of these policies say they cover the legal use of a firearm. But it's their job to help defend me against the state's claim that the use was illegal. Am I missing something here?

Here's a section from FLPs Contract:


Self-Defense”–means an act of self-defense as defined by Applicable Law when a Use of Firearm Incident arises out of a Member’s fear of severe bodily injury or death;provided, however, that any use of any Firearm by a Member in any act of aggression or in the commission of a crime is not considered Self-Defense and is therefore not entitled to any benefits here under.

The nightmare scenario I'm picturing is that. I say it's self-defense, the prosecutor says it was an aggressive criminal act. FLP may decide that it's cheaper to believe the prosecutor and refuse to provide assistance. The last step of a dispute process with FLP is binding arbitration in Dallas TX, which obviously I can't attend because I'm stuck in jail unable to get bond because the legal protection I'm paying for won't pay out.

Is there something in the contract or law that protects me from this type of scenario?

BTW, contract text comes from this link in the members thread: http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?352126-MGO-is-now-a-facilitator-for-Firearms-Legal-Protection&p=2747994&viewfull=1#post2747994

[Shyster]

All of these policies say they cover the legal use of a firearm. But it's their job to help defend me against the state's claim that the use was illegal. Am I missing something here?

Here's a section from FLPs Contract:



The nightmare scenario I'm picturing is that. I say it's self-defense, the prosecutor says it was an aggressive criminal act. FLP may decide that it's cheaper to believe the prosecutor and refuse to provide assistance. The last step of a dispute process with FLP is binding arbitration in Dallas TX, which obviously I can't attend because I'm stuck in jail unable to get bond because the legal protection I'm paying for won't pay out.

Is there something in the contract or law that protects me from this type of scenario?

BTW, contract text comes from this link in the members thread: http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?352126-MGO-is-now-a-facilitator-for-Firearms-Legal-Protection&p=2747994&viewfull=1#post2747994

You are WAY overthinking this

[AxlMyk]

Having read this thread pages 1-10, I'll be showing it to my wife. She's been asking about insurance, and possible civil suits. $300/yr for both of us with FLP is very attractive.

[nrich1979]

All of these policies say they cover the legal use of a firearm. But it's their job to help defend me against the state's claim that the use was illegal. Am I missing something here?

Here's a section from FLPs Contract:



The nightmare scenario I'm picturing is that. I say it's self-defense, the prosecutor says it was an aggressive criminal act. FLP may decide that it's cheaper to believe the prosecutor and refuse to provide assistance. The last step of a dispute process with FLP is binding arbitration in Dallas TX, which obviously I can't attend because I'm stuck in jail unable to get bond because the legal protection I'm paying for won't pay out.

Is there something in the contract or law that protects me from this type of scenario?

BTW, contract text comes from this link in the members thread: http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?352126-MGO-is-now-a-facilitator-for-Firearms-Legal-Protection&p=2747994&viewfull=1#post2747994

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that operating under the burden of proof, regardless of what the prosecutor may say before verdict the assumption is you're innocent of any crime..

Thus FLP would be forced to defend you as you're going to have that legal assumption that you've done nothing illegal..

[projekt-h]

So, I'm seeing that most people are going with FLP and one or two people made mention of CCWsafe which is one of the two I was leaning towards before this thread. Anyone have any input on them, vs USCCA vs FLP?

[Snowy.vtwin]

My preference is payment/service up front for bond and retainers vs reimbursement as described in the FLP doocument.

[Sledhead]

Is this the FLP that is being discussed? https://www.firearmslegal.com

I currently have USCCA.

[dmd7765]

FLP will be doing a presentation at the MGO Annual Meeting/Election/Picnic. And there may be FLP reps at some of the joint picnics

[erict]

Is this the FLP that is being discussed? https://www.firearmslegal.com

I currently have USCCA.

Yes

[hunterspirit]

still looking

[Quads]

Firearms Legal still the preferred vendor by Shyster and others?

Any know MI. cases where it was used?

[Shyster]

Firearms Legal still the preferred vendor by Shyster and others?

Any know MI. cases where it was used?

Yes. I know of cases where FLP has paid but I can't discuss them. Suffice it to say everyone is satisfied.

[Quads]

Yes. I know of cases where FLP has paid but I can't discuss them. Suffice it to say everyone is satisfied.

Of course. I wasn't looking for names and faces but simply if anyone has first hand knowledge of how the / their program performed, good for bid, had it been used.

I know USCCA and modified their offerings in the last couple years, so was doing a comparison as I'm due for a renewal.

As always, I appreciate any insight from the legal end from those in the trenches.

[ltcnav]

I am an NRA pistol instructor. If I go with FLP for my concealed carry/self defense issues, will they also cover any liability issues with my teaching/classes?

[GPintheMitten]

Yes. I know of cases where FLP has paid but I can't discuss them. Suffice it to say everyone is satisfied.

I just tried to go to their site. I get a page that says this site is temporarily unavailable. Site owner is given a phone number to call. Says Go Daddy at the top. What's up?

[PhotoTom]

I just tried to go to their site. I get a page that says this site is temporarily unavailable. Site owner is given a phone number to call. Says Go Daddy at the top. What's up?

Wow…more website problems! Looks like they forgot to pay their hosting bill this time...

[Shyster]

I just tried to go to their site. I get a page that says this site is temporarily unavailable. Site owner is given a phone number to call. Says Go Daddy at the top. What's up?

Huh?

No problem that I see

www.firearmslegal.com

[Quads]

Something weird with their site at the moment. I can get to it via mobile, but not via my laptop. (different ISP's, so my guess is a DNS routing hick-up)

[GPintheMitten]

I still cant get it even clicking on your supplied link. Maybe my ISP is blocking it?

[robertm]

Shyster's link works for me on my desktop computer

[GPintheMitten]

I disconnected my phone from the wifi and tried it and got their site. Thanks.

[Quads]

@Shyster: Still being an 'enrolled' ? attorney of multiple programs (USCCA, FLP, others, etc.) do you still feel the same in that FLP is a superior program? Anything specific that stands out as far as covered that makes it demonstrably better than others? (for example, their Platinum program, vs. the Premium on FLP) I was considering USCCA again however now thinking perhaps I should give FLP a closer look.

Appreciate your professional opinion and input.

[Shyster]

@Shyster: Still being an 'enrolled' ? attorney of multiple programs (USCCA, FLP, others, etc.) do you still feel the same in that FLP is a superior program? Anything specific that stands out as far as covered that makes it demonstrably better than others? (for example, their Platinum program, vs. the Premium on FLP) I was considering USCCA again however now thinking perhaps I should give FLP a closer look.

Appreciate your professional opinion and input.

Two things immediately jump to mind. FLP's hotline is manned 24/7 by an attorney, where all others are not.

Second, FLP makes sure all attorneys in its network are qualified. I KNOW USCCA doesn't--the road rage shooting in Howell a few years ago comes immediately to mind. That is especially important if you are traveling out of state. I'm on USCCA's Critical Response Team (supposedearly the elite) and honestly I'm not certain what they did to vet me.

I can't recall all the other differences at the moment.

[PhotoTom]

Something weird with their site at the moment. I can get to it via mobile, but not via my laptop. (different ISP's, so my guess is a DNS routing hick-up)

It wasn't working for me earlier (I saw the same screen as GPintheMitten)…I just tried again…same computer, same ISP…nothing rebooted, etc…works fine now.

[Quads]

Two things immediately jump to mind. FLP's hotline is manned 24/7 by an attorney, where all others are not.

Second, FLP makes sure all attorneys in its network are qualified. I KNOW USCCA doesn't--the road rage shooting in Howell a few years ago comes immediately to mind. That is especially important if you are traveling out of state. I'm on USCCA's Critical Response Team (supposedearly the elite) and honestly I'm not certain what they did to vet me.

I can't recall all the other differences at the moment.

Thanks Jim.
I do travel out of state a fair bit so that is a consideration.
Amount of coverage (limits) in both type cases (civil and criminal) was also a consideration.

[edknn]

How does FLP compare to Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network? They are only $135 the first year and $95 /yr after. I have called a couple of times with questions before joining and always got through immediately. After hours the calls go to the founders own cell phone and they promise boots on the ground immediately. If necessary he will come himself. Massad Ayoob is on their board of experts to help in a trial situation.Best of all, you can use any lawyer of your choice and I made sure Shyster took their cases.

[Quads]

How does FLP compare to Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network? They are only $135 the first year and $95 /yr after. I have called a couple of times with questions before joining and always got through immediately. After hours the calls go to the founders own cell phone and they promise boots on the ground immediately. If necessary he will come himself. Massad Ayoob is on their board of experts to help in a trial situation.Best of all, you can use any lawyer of your choice and I made sure Shyster took their cases.

I came in to post the same question, and ask if Shyster was on their list of associate legal council and if he's ever been called on by them / any direct experience with them?

[Shyster]

I came in to post the same question, and ask if Shyster was on their list of associate legal council and if he's ever been called on by them / any direct experience with them?

I am on their list but have never defended someone from ACLDN

[Quads]

Thanks Shyster. Appreciate the feedback and info.

[Quads]

How does FLP compare to Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network? They are only $135 the first year and $95 /yr after. I have called a couple of times with questions before joining and always got through immediately. After hours the calls go to the founders own cell phone and they promise boots on the ground immediately. If necessary he will come himself. Massad Ayoob is on their board of experts to help in a trial situation.Best of all, you can use any lawyer of your choice and I made sure Shyster took their cases.

In reading up on their website, and trading a few emails with them, something that jumps out at me:
Their overhead and operating costs are 75 cents to a dollar. They state on their website (and confirm via email) that 25% of members dues are held in a separate account. There is roughly 1.5M in said account. Therefore 75% of members dues are used for overhead, operating expenses, advertising, etc. This seems quite steep to me, however I'm not familiar with running a legal defense network and how much operating one costs.

I think other foundations (charitable, etc.) do it for about 15 or 20%.

[costanza]

FLP member here, and happy to be one. However, I do not know if expiration/renewal notifications are sent out. I'd hate to be without...

[fozzy71]

FLP member here, and happy to be one. However, I do not know if expiration/renewal notifications are sent out. I'd hate to be without...

I get emails IIRC but I am setup for auto pay on their site to one of my credit cards. Had an issue recently switching from one card back to a card I had used before. sent them an email and got a call the next day to fix it manually as their site wont let you setup the same card a 2nd time for some reason

[costanza]

Thanks Fozzy!