Open Carry in Royal Oak.

[halik008]

Hi Guys,

I'm aware of the legality and all, I'm just wondering if anybody has actually tried it?

Royal Oak being yuppy/liberal, I'm not worried about people giving me fuss as much as I'm worried about LEO giving me fuss. I live right downtown Royal Oak, so I see LEOs cruise around all day since their station is just blocks from my house.

[dougwg]

Sense you live in Royal Joke, if you're afraid of retribution from the police or if you're afraid of being arrested for OC or if you haven't studied the law as it pertains to OC or if you haven't practiced different scenarios while dealing with a LEO/anti-gun citizen encounter, I suggest not OC'ing in RO.

If you have a handle on the above then I say go for it.

[esq_stu]

Just curious, and not to hijack this thread, but has anyone walked in to a police station, asked for a meeting with the police chief where they live, or someone else in authority there, and calmly explained to them the law (that is, that open carry is legal) and suggested that they make sure their beat cops be informed? Maybe even offer to print out and hand out that MSP newsletter that spells it out?

Seems to me that it should not be necessary to train police by first getting arrested and then complaining about it.

Just wondering.

[halik008]

Sense you live in Royal Joke, if you're afraid of retribution from the police or if you're afraid of being arrested for OC or if you haven't studied the law as it pertains to OC or if you haven't practiced different scenarios while dealing with a LEO/anti-gun citizen encounter, I suggest not OC'ing in RO.

If you have a handle on the above then I say go for it.

It's not about fear, it's more about not having the time or desire to deal with the hassle of dealing with LEOs if I do get falsely detained for OC.

[halik008]

Just curious, and not to hijack this thread, but has anyone walked in to a police station, asked for a meeting with the police chief where they live, or someone else in authority there, and calmly explained to them the law (that is, that open carry is legal) and suggested that they make sure their beat cops be informed? Maybe even offer to print out and hand out that MSP newsletter that spells it out?

Seems to me that it should not be necessary to train police by first getting arrested and then complaining about it.

Just wondering.

Yes I was actually thinking about doing exactly this.

[Garbo]

Just curious, and not to hijack this thread, but has anyone walked in to a police station, asked for a meeting with the police chief where they live, or someone else in authority there, and calmly explained to them the law (that is, that open carry is legal) and suggested that they make sure their beat cops be informed? Maybe even offer to print out and hand out that MSP newsletter that spells it out?

Seems to me that it should not be necessary to train police by first getting arrested and then complaining about it.

Just wondering.

Some PD's dont care and make up their own laws. They have the if you dont like it then sue me attitude. I should say I know of one to be more accurate.

[ColonelKurtz]

What's wrong with Royal Oak / Royal Joke? I've heard rumblings here and there but nothing specific. Are they bass ackwards there or something? Something I should know about since I spend time in the area?

[dougwg]

Hi Guys,

I'm aware of the legality and all, I'm just wondering if anybody has actually tried it?

Royal Oak being yuppy/liberal, I'm not worried about people giving me fuss as much as I'm worried about LEO giving me fuss. I live right downtown Royal Oak, so I see LEOs cruise around all day since their station is just blocks from my house.

That

[halik008]

That


It's also against the Royal Oak ordnance to be "annoying" heh.

[GTPprix]

It's also against the Royal Oak ordnance to be "annoying" heh.

I thought that was brighton? LOL I guess if it were me I'd try open carry in a group there first :)

[halik008]

I thought that was brighton? LOL I guess if it were me I'd try open carry in a group there first :)

Brighton too....but it was modeled after Royal Oak. I was actually able to get emails for RO Chief and Deputy Chief so I emailed them both and attached the latter and pamphlet from opencarry.org....... now I'm waiting to hear back from them :D

[GTPprix]

Brighton too....but it was modeled after Royal Oak. I was actually able to get emails for RO Chief and Deputy Chief so I emailed them both and attached the latter and pamphlet from opencarry.org....... now I'm waiting to hear back from them :D

Good luck! :) The cops are generally pretty laid back when I go out there for bike night provided you arent doing anything completely stupid.

[halik008]

Good luck! :) The cops are generally pretty laid back when I go out there for bike night provided you arent doing anything completely stupid.


i ride too! What ya got? :)

[Hcidem]

I hope you get an encouraging reply. It seems that many PDs like to issue guarded replies to inquiries like this. I suppose I cannot blame them for being wary of overstating their position.

[GTPprix]

08 CBR600RR :)

[halik008]

08 CBR600RR :)

2001 CBR600F4i here. hopefully 2002-04 Duc 748 comes spring :)

[GTPprix]

2001 CBR600F4i here. hopefully 2002-04 Duc 748 comes spring :)

BADASS!! You arent a DSB member are you?

[halik008]

BADASS!! You arent a DSB member are you?

no sir.

[GTPprix]

no sir.

Ah well if you get bored detroitsportbikes.com crazy bunch, lots of fun :)

[halik008]

Good news guys! This is the reply I got from RO PD!

Thank you for your email. We are up to date on the law and have provided training regarding this law. We appreciate your input.



Regards,

Christopher M. Jahnke

Deputy Chief

Royal Oak Police

221 E. Third

Royal Oak, MI 48067

(248) 246-3526



Sounds like Royal Oak is OC approved. :D

[dougwg]

I would still use caution.

And I wish you luck.

Maybe you should announce a get-to-gather.

[halik008]

I would still use caution.

And I wish you luck.

Maybe you should announce a get-to-gather.

Oh yeah caution always needs to be used when carrying.

I'm only really plan on OC at night when going for a walk, taking the dog out, etc.

Yes get-to-gather would be nice once it warms up :D

[dougwg]

Oh yeah caution always needs to be used when carrying.

I'm only really plan on OC at night when going for a walk, taking the dog out, etc.

Yes get-to-gather would be nice once it warms up :D

We just had a GTG in Berkley at a coffee house on 12-21-08

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/17919.html

[esq_stu]

I hope you get an encouraging reply. It seems that many PDs like to issue guarded replies to inquiries like this. I suppose I cannot blame them for being wary of overstating their position.If they know that people will act on the correspondence (that is, start open carrying), it would seem the prudent thing to do is tell their people it's legal just to avoid false arrests. But then, that assumes the PD is run that way. (yes I know how to spell ASSume.)

[esq_stu]

Sounds like Royal Oak is OC approved. :D That is really good news. You never know about those yuppy/liberals.

[halik008]

That is really good news. You never know about those yuppy/liberals.


it's actually quite funny....as yuppy and liberal as Royal Oak has become.....Midwest Ordnance is right downtown on Main St. 2 blocks from all the yuppy coffee stores and shops :lol: They have quite the collection of AKs, Galils, Stey Augs, Cetmes, etc :lol:

[esq_stu]

iMidwest Ordnance is right downtown on Main St. 2 blocks from all the yuppy coffee stores and shops :lol: They have quite the collection of AKs, Galils, Stey Augs, Cetmes, etc :lol:Forgot about them. I bought my first Makarov there about 8 years ago. Every once in a while there's a gem in the display case. I should go check them out. Maybe I'll OC downtown while I'm at it :wink: (not).

[Hcidem]

Good news guys! This is the reply I got from RO PD!

...

Sounds like Royal Oak is OC approved. :D

This is exactly the type of non-commiting response I expected you might receive. They offer nothing particularly quotable, of course. I guess we should proclaim victory whenever in doubt.

Good job on your part, halik008.

[halik008]

This is exactly the type of non-commiting response I expected you might receive. They offer nothing particularly quotable, of course. I guess we should proclaim victory whenever in doubt.

Good job on your part, halik008.


Well I didn't word my email as "yes/no, can i, can't i". I worded it basically as "here is some information you and your officers might find useful so that there is no misunderstanding on the street."

[Venator12]

Just curious, and not to hijack this thread, but has anyone walked in to a police station, asked for a meeting with the police chief where they live, or someone else in authority there, and calmly explained to them the law (that is, that open carry is legal) and suggested that they make sure their beat cops be informed? Maybe even offer to print out and hand out that MSP newsletter that spells it out?

Seems to me that it should not be necessary to train police by first getting arrested and then complaining about it.

Just wondering.

The open carry site has a down loadable letter with legal references that are available to send or hand in to any local PD's. Many of our members have done so. Education is our main goal. The desire is not to be hassled for OCing in any lawful place.

[Hcidem]

Well, you probably know as well as the police information officer would know that some folks (like me) always wants an explicit statement to which we can hold them accountable.

[halik008]

Well, you probably know as well as the police information officer would know that some folks (like me) always wants an explicit statement to which we can hold them accountable.

heh explicit statements like that are useless. Word of the Chief would not stop uninformed troop from arresting you. Additionally, the explicit statement is not needed when the law is on your side since any charges would just get dropped whether or not there is explicit statement. ;)

[Venator12]

heh explicit statements like that are useless. Word of the Chief would not stop uninformed troop from arresting you. Additionally, the explicit statement is not needed when the law is on your side since any charges would just get dropped whether or not there is explicit statement. ;)

True, but if the chief makes a statement that he has informed his officers that OC is legal and you have that statement, then any arrest or harassment after that time would be look at favorably in any legal recourse one may choose to take against the department.

[halik008]

True, but if the chief makes a statement that he has informed his officers that OC is legal and you have that statement, then any arrest or harassment after that time would be look at favorably in any legal recourse one may choose to take against the department.

meh, I'm not sue-happy like the rest of America. As stated in the email they are aware of the OC laws and their officers received training. But misunderstanding can happen, so if i do get hauled off to the station by accident....no harm no foul, as long as I'm free to go after we get there. Not to mention my house is a block from the station anyways heheheh

[Hcidem]

We also should keep the possibility of a civil lawsuit in mind. This is distasteful to many people, but anyone who suffers continued harassment would surely be led toward seeking just compensation for the time and effort they are forced to expend maintaining their rights. Every snippet, statement, and document which supports your position will be helpful in a civil suit.

Likewise, the power of the press is greatly enhanced with documents and recorded statements. Local papers, television, and even YouTube are more effective when supported by physical evidence.

[who dat]

Being as the wording on the response is so vague, and that there is no law regarding OC specifically, I would ask the respondent exactly what he instructed his officers regarding the law.

To me this reads as a giant "no-answer".

[halik008]

Being as the wording on the response is so vague, and that there is no law regarding OC specifically, I would ask the respondent exactly what he instructed his officers regarding the law.

To me this reads as a giant "no-answer".

again, i did not ask for any answer.

[who dat]

again, i did not ask for any answer.
What exactly is your inference from his comments?

Perhaps I misunderstood these posts of yours:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Good news guys! This is the reply I got from RO PD!

Quote:
Thank you for your email. We are up to date on the law and have provided training regarding this law. We appreciate your input.



Regards,

Christopher M. Jahnke

Deputy Chief

Royal Oak Police

221 E. Third

Royal Oak, MI 48067

(24 246-3526


Sounds like Royal Oak is OC approved.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brighton too....but it was modeled after Royal Oak. I was actually able to get emails for RO Chief and Deputy Chief so I emailed them both and attached the latter and pamphlet from opencarry.org....... now I'm waiting to hear back from them
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
meh, I'm not sue-happy like the rest of America. As stated in the email they are aware of the OC laws and their officers received training. But misunderstanding can happen, so if i do get hauled off to the station by accident....no harm no foul, as long as I'm free to go after we get there. Not to mention my house is a block from the station anyways heheheh

[halik008]

What exactly is your inference from his comments?

Perhaps I misunderstood these posts of yours:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Good news guys! This is the reply I got from RO PD!

Quote:
Thank you for your email. We are up to date on the law and have provided training regarding this law. We appreciate your input.



Regards,

Christopher M. Jahnke

Deputy Chief

Royal Oak Police

221 E. Third

Royal Oak, MI 48067

(24 246-3526


Sounds like Royal Oak is OC approved.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brighton too....but it was modeled after Royal Oak. I was actually able to get emails for RO Chief and Deputy Chief so I emailed them both and attached the latter and pamphlet from opencarry.org....... now I'm waiting to hear back from them
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
meh, I'm not sue-happy like the rest of America. As stated in the email they are aware of the OC laws and their officers received training. But misunderstanding can happen, so if i do get hauled off to the station by accident....no harm no foul, as long as I'm free to go after we get there. Not to mention my house is a block from the station anyways heheheh

Simply says there are aware state laws ( which makes it not illegal to OC)

[who dat]

Simply says there are aware state laws ( which makes it not illegal to OC)
Well that's the part that worries me. There are no laws regarding OC. Period. Because there are no laws regarding OC, individual departments take it upon themselves to make their own laws and hassle the OCers.

Just because he sent you this nebulous confirmation of your email, do not for a second think that you can OC in Royal Oak without a hassle and probable arrest. Without the absolute wording that RO will accept OC as a law abiding action, you are just spinning in the wind.

Sorry for my frankness, but where I live, people have lived through this and are still involved in civil action. Royal Oak is notorious for telling you one thing and doing another. Be very careful.

[esq_stu]

We also should keep the possibility of a civil lawsuit in mind.Believe me, it is on my mind. I was thinking of preparing a fill-in-the-blank form and court-addressed stamped envelope just for that occasion.:badass:

Of course, I'm not planning to open carry, so . . . never mind.

[Hcidem]

Some people never plan to open carry before it just happens. To me, concealed carry means that a firearm is not evident on its carrier.

Momentary exposure or forgetting to reposition a holster after removing a coat can all result in a technically open carry situation. I think its very important for CPL holders to know that their local PD is up to date on the legality of open carry.

[halik008]

Well that's the part that worries me. There are no laws regarding OC. Period. Because there are no laws regarding OC, individual departments take it upon themselves to make their own laws and hassle the OCers.

Just because he sent you this nebulous confirmation of your email, do not for a second think that you can OC in Royal Oak without a hassle and probable arrest. Without the absolute wording that RO will accept OC as a law abiding action, you are just spinning in the wind.

Sorry for my frankness, but where I live, people have lived through this and are still involved in civil action. Royal Oak is notorious for telling you one thing and doing another. Be very careful.


true but since state law precedes local ordinances, local PD cannot charge me with something that's invalid as Michigan courts already decided.

3) No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law.

In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

THE MICHIGAN COURT of APPEALS CONCLUDED: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.

MCRGO v. Ferndale: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.

[Knimrod]

true but since state law precedes local ordinances, local PD cannot charge me with something that's invalid as Michigan courts already decided.

That's not the way it works.. You can be arrested, booked and charged. If you are, you'll get a chance to hire a lawyer to make things right for you. Sounds like fun, eh?

[Hcidem]

That's not the way it works.. You can be arrested, booked and charged. If you are, you'll get a chance to hire a lawyer to make things right for you. Sounds like fun, eh?

On what basis would one be arrested, booked, or charged if their actions are legal?

[appliancebrad]

On what basis would one be arrested, booked, or charged if their actions are legal?

You don't get out much do you? :)

[halik008]

On what basis would one be arrested, booked, or charged if their actions are legal?


exactly.

[dougwg]

I guess Knimrod is saying that you can be arrested for anything, even if the arrest is illegal.

They can illegally arrest you, illegally charge you and then you will have to get and invest lots of money with a lawyer. Later you will be able to win a large settlement in civil court for the illegal actions of the people that illegally arrested you. But it's frowned upon to talk of sueing a these people for there illegal activity here on MGO IMO.

Given that, I guess they can take you out back of the police station and shoot you in the head. Although the chances of these events transpiring are small IMO I guess it could happen and has happened a very small percentage of the time.


:whistle:

[esq_stu]

Later you will be able to win a large settlement in civil court for the illegal actions of the people that illegally arrested you.You can sue, but I'm not so sure about that large settlement. If there were some good precedents, the police would be a little more careful.

[halik008]

You can sue, but I'm not so sure about that large settlement. If there were some good precedents, the police would be a little more careful.

yeah lol the direct precedents....by court decisions....come from city right next to Royal Oak......that is Ferndale, MI heh

[appliancebrad]

yeah lol the direct precedents....by court decisions....come from city right next to Royal Oak......that is Ferndale, MI heh

And what was the settlement? The plaintiff didn't get attorneys fees or anything else other than possibly their filing fees.

[Hcidem]

You don't get out much do you? :)

I get out plenty enough to know that those who don't stand up for their rights don't enjoy any rights.

I share the same general distaste for getting down and dirty when it comes to civil lawsuits. On the other hand, I would have no hesitation at pursuing a lawsuit against the filthy thieves who would try to steal my inheritance in the rights and liberties established by those before me.

I prefer to offer civilized discussion and the exchange of ideas. I will resort to federal lawsuits if need be.

The brutes who would have me do otherwise consider anyone who choses not to stand up to them as just another chump.

[Done Deal]

They can illegally arrest you, illegally charge you and then you will have to get and invest lots of money with a lawyer.

Later you will be able to win a large settlement in civil court for the illegal actions of the people that illegally arrested you.

But it's frowned upon to talk of sueing a these people for there illegal activity here on MGO IMO.



What exactly is the law that an officer will be charged with as you claim?

And how is it that you know, catagorically that somebody, anybody, will in fact win a large settlement?

Yes, lots of people frown (and roll their eyes) when they read such nonsense....can you blame them? But, I have also read, repeatedly, that the OC movement does not advocate litigation....hmmm.....ok.

[Venator12]

[QUOTE=Done But, I have also read, repeatedly, that the OC movement does not advocate litigation....hmmm.....ok.[/QUOTE]
I don't know where you got that. Suing is a personal decision. I think as a group the MOC members would rather not have to take legal recourse for any abuse for lawful activities. Having said that MOC does encourage people to investigate any legal recourses they may enjoy. I don't think that makes the group pro or con on civil suits.

[Done Deal]

Well, sometimes the distinction between vocal members of the group and the actual group becomes difficult to distinguish.

Either way, I wish I had a nickel for every time the word lawsuit got mentioned in an OC thread....

[Hcidem]

What exactly is the law that an officer will be charged with as you claim?

And how is it that you know, catagorically that somebody, anybody, will in fact win a large settlement?

Yes, lots of people frown (and roll their eyes) when they read such nonsense....can you blame them? But, I have also read, repeatedly, that the OC movement does not advocate litigation....hmmm.....ok.

The charge is called infringement of rights. The typical civil rights involved are protected by the second and fourth amendments. During arrest, the victim will want to utilize protections offered by the fifth and sixth amendments. The venue is typically a federal court.

A large settlement is never categorically involved. It is, however, typically involved when the victim has a solid case against an LEO, his department, and his local government. This is often distasteful to the victim because he knows that the rights-abusing brutes never pay a dime themselves - not directly anyway. It always falls to the taxpayer; and the taxpayers should see that these thugs are fired or thrown out of office for costing them such an expense.

In regard to the rolling of the eyes at such nonsense...this is why attorneys tell their clients to never threaten a lawsuit. No one wants to actually pursue a lawsuit, and merely threatening undermines any tactical advantage the thought of a lawsuit offers prior to filing it.

[Hcidem]

Well, sometimes the distinction between vocal members of the group and the actual group becomes difficult to distinguish.

Either way, I wish I had a nickel for every time the word lawsuit got mentioned in an OC thread....

You make a very good point; you'd be very rich though your pockets would be unbearably heavy. :cry:

Many who participate on the OC forums show a lot of false bravado. The issue can particularly excite those young men who are just brimming with testosterone. It is a risk one takes when participating on those boards.

I was reluctant to engage these folks for several months before I decided to get over it and jump in. I found that most of the people I was concerned about rarely even participate in the state threads.

That is to say, they typically frequent the general issue threads where they have a bit more anonymosity than they would in their own state thread. On the other hand, most of those on the state threads are genuinely interested in learning the legalities of OC, and how they can work to educate those they encounter on the issues.

[Done Deal]

The charge is called infringement of rights.

I am sorry, I am not familar with that law. Would you be kind enough to provide a link to the statute that describes an illegal charge and the criminal penalty involved?

[Hcidem]

I am sorry, I am not familar with that law. Would you be kind enough to provide a link to the statute that describes an illegal charge and the criminal penalty involved?

I believe you are confusing criminal law with civil law. Criminal lawsuits are structured to reflect our criminal statutes and the resulting case law experiences of our court system. Civil lawsuits are structured to reflect civil statutes, common law, constitutional protections, and the resulting case law experiences of our court system.

Criminal lawsuits can result in imprisonment and fines. Civil lawsuits can result in monetary judgements or settlements.

One doesn't ask a prosecutor to charge another with breaking a criminal law in the case of a civil lawsuit. Instead, they retain an attorney to file the case so that it may be heard in court.

Are the differences between these type of lawsuits clear now?

[who dat]

I believe you are confusing criminal law with civil law. Criminal lawsuits are structured to reflect our criminal statutes and the resulting case law experiences of our court system. Civil lawsuits are structured to reflect civil statutes, common law, constitutional protections, and the resulting case law experiences of our court system.

Criminal lawsuits can result in imprisonment and fines. Civil lawsuits can result in monetary judgements or settlements.

One doesn't ask a prosecutor to charge another with breaking a criminal law in the case of a civil lawsuit. Instead, they retain an attorney to file the case so that it may be heard in court.

Are the differences between these type of lawsuits clear now?
:popcorn:

[Knimrod]

The charge is called infringement of rights.
I believe you are confusing criminal law with civil law. Criminal lawsuits are structured to reflect our criminal statutes and the resulting case law experiences of our court system. Civil lawsuits are structured to reflect civil statutes, common law, constitutional protections, and the resulting case law experiences of our court system.

Criminal lawsuits can result in imprisonment and fines. Civil lawsuits can result in monetary judgements or settlements.

One doesn't ask a prosecutor to charge another with breaking a criminal law in the case of a civil lawsuit. Instead, they retain an attorney to file the case so that it may be heard in court.

Are the differences between these type of lawsuits clear now?

In a criminal case, a "charge" is the specific statement of what crime is contained in the indictment or criminal complaint against a party. I'm pretty sure you are not "charged" in a civil matter..

[Hcidem]

In a criminal case, a "charge" is the specific statement of what crime is contained in the indictment or criminal complaint against a party. I'm pretty sure you are not "charged" in a civil matter..

You are definitely right about that. I must concede that I just lost several points in the game of semantics. My point is that there are penalties available to those who are willing to employ them.

Most 2A supporters admire the sentiment behind the idea of a well-armed citizenry keeping our federal government in check. I definitely agree that exerting 2A rights does create a disincentive for those who would make a power grab too quickly. However, most people would find the armed take-over of a rogue police department to be overkill; I would expect all involved would (rightfully in my mind) be jailed. We have our civil court courts to address matters such as these.

I grew up frowning upon the "panty waisted ninnies" who grew up to make a living by filing frivolous lawsuits. I disliked seeing the images of limp-bodied students being dragged away by the police for their activism, and it wasn't due to the actions of the police (at that time). I now begrudgingly appreciate the fact that these folks kept the civil court system alive to address my own civil protections. I still don't condone the questionable activities which led them to find their way into that court system, however.

I know its healthy and available for my use if I am repeatedly dragged "downtown" to be asked why choose to open carry on my way to buy my kid an ice cream cone.

[dougwg]

MGO-where any mole hill can be turned into a mountain and usually is.

Just to stop this nonsense.

If a LEO arrests someone illegally the CHARGE is "false arrest" and another charge could be "color of law statute".

The FBI is the lead federal agency for investigating color of law abuses, which include acts carried out by government officials operating both within and beyond the limits of their lawful authority. Off-duty conduct may be covered if the perpetrator asserted his or her official status in some way.

During Fiscal Year 2005, the FBI investigated more than 1,100 color of law cases including the following:

• excessive force;
• false arrest and fabrication of evidence;
• deprivation of property; and
• failure to keep from harm.

To file a color of law complaint, contact your local FBI office (http://www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm) by telephone, in writing, or in person. The following information should be provided:

• all identifying information for the victim(s);
• as much identifying information as possible for the subject(s), including position, rank, and
agency employed;
• date and time of incident;
• location of incident;
• names, addresses, and telephone numbers of any witness(es);
• a complete chronology of events; and
• any report numbers and charges with respect to the incident.

You may also contact the United States Attorney's Office in your district or send a written
complaint to:

Assistant Attorney General
Civil Rights Division
Criminal Section
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest
Washington, DC 20530

Now on to civil applications

Title 42, U.S.C., Section 14141 makes it unlawful for state or local law enforcement agencies to allow officers to engage in a pattern or practice of conduct that deprives persons of rights protected by the Constitution or U.S. laws. This law, commonly referred to as the Police Misconduct Statute, gives the Department of Justice authority to seek civil remedies in cases where law enforcement agencies have policies or practices that foster a pattern of misconduct by employees. This action is directed against an agency, not against individual officers. The types of issues which may initiate a pattern and practice investigation include:

• Lack of supervision/monitoring of officers' actions;
• Lack of justification or reporting by officers on incidents involving the use of force;
• Lack of, or improper training of, officers; and
• Citizen complaint processes that treat complainants as adversaries.

Under Title 42, U.S.C., Section 1997, the Department of Justice has the ability to initiate civil actions against mental hospitals, retardation facilities, jails, prisons, nursing homes, and juvenile detention facilities when there are allegations of systemic derivations of the constitutional rights of institutionalized persons.

[Hcidem]

I should have stuck with "consult your local attorney...or dougwg ." Thanks, Doug.

[dougwg]

You are quickly learning the MO of some of the posters on this forum.

It can be a very hostile environment at times and your feet will be held to the fire for the slightest mistake as this helps some to feel superior.

[Knimrod]

MGO-where any mole hill can be turned into a mountain and usually is.

Please.. some might consider the above to be a self-fulfilling prophecy..

The point I was trying to make was that regardless of your righteousness, you can still be arrested, booked, jailed, charged, and forced to defend yourself in a court of law. That experience will undoubtedly cost thousands of dollars which may be never recovered. Worse than that, how do you feel about potentially losing? A court loss may mean jail and also the loss of some of your rights. Never say "never". Some environments are simply more perilous than others with regards to open carry. In our day and age, any kind of carry is something that should be done with eyes wide open. There's far too many pitfalls.

[Hcidem]

Please.. some might consider the above to be a self-fulfilling prophecy..

...

...or perhaps consider it to be a challenge. ;)

I see a lot of issues on which we are in agreement. The odds of being illegally detained/arrested/prosecuted are uncertain. The odds of have enough resources/evidence/fortitude to successfully complete a civil suit or federal case is also uncertain.

Our directly oppositive viewpoints are based on our judgement of what those odds are. My viewpoint places those who would argue that we should refrain from exercising the civil rights in the cheering section of those who would directly infringe upon those rights.

I cannot comprehend how someone can sleep at night knowing that LEOs are being actively encouraged by [U]any one person[U] in these United States to hamper and infringe upon the free exercise of any protected right. When 2A rights go down the drain, the vortex created will suck all our other rights directly after it.

[ColonelKurtz]

I cannot comprehend how someone can sleep at night knowing that LEOs are being actively encouraged by [U]any one person[U] in these United States to hamper and infringe upon the free exercise of any protected right. When 2A rights go down the drain, the vortex created will suck all our other rights directly after it.

Sometimes I can't, for a lot of reasons pertaining to what's happening to this country :flag:

[Hcidem]

Sometimes I can't, for a lot of reasons pertaining to what's happening to this country :flag:

I'm with you there, brother.

As I have awoken from the peaceful slumber of everyday life, I realize that what is happening is a direct result of what had happened - both during and before I began that peaceful slumber.

[who dat]

true but since state law precedes local ordinances, local PD cannot charge me with something that's invalid as Michigan courts already decided.
They can and will charge you with whatever they choose. Many PDs already think the existing laws do not apply to them. Just read the link in my signature, also in dougwg's sig, and then tell me that they don't live to cause you aggravation.

On another note, I talked to Chris Jahnke, Deputy Chief of the Royal Oak PD yesterday. He in no way admits that OC is legal. He admits to reading your information sent to him. He admits that OC is covered in the CC laws (which it isn't, but I digress). He says the officers have been "trained" in the law but will not say they will accept legal carry. He says the 911 dispatchers have not been instructed to inform callers of the legality of OC, and that if a call comes in, you, as an OCer will be contacted. He would not say you would be detained, but you will be confronted to find out if you are legal. Does that sound like support? Not to me.

Trust me, I OC occasionally and I support your right to do so as well. I wish you good luck in your endeavors, but I worry that the in-your-face attitude of those overly passionate followers will cause serious backlash for us all.

Plan ahead and stay safe.

[esq_stu]

MGO-where any mole hill can be turned into a mountain and usually is.Guilty as charged. :multi: :banana:

[Hcidem]

...but I worry that the in-your-face attitude of those overly passionate followers will cause serious backlash for us all.
...

I know many of us are very concerned about this issue. Zealots for any cause frequently cause more harm than good. This is why we all need to clearly communicate the fact that someone walking down the street in a manner which is constitutionally protected is neither a threat nor a criminal, and should be protected instead of harassed by our "thin blue line." Is the line thin enough without them harassing lawful citizens?

I know that many Detroit suburbs have essentially been on a continuous type of yellow alert since the 60's riots. The properly applied vigilance against crime in these communities is definitely commendable. However, we need to clearly tell our community watchdogs that they will be held to the highest standards of their profession.

THAT is the price they should have to pay to keep the well-paying jobs they currently hold. If they instead choose to move to a small community (like mine in Rockford), they are free to do so. They can expect their pay will be commesurate with the lower risks and obligations they will incur in such a community.

[dougwg]

I think we need to invite Chris Jahnke, Deputy Chief of the Royal Oak to sit down with us at a picnic or possibly even coffee at one of the many coffee houses they have in RO to discuss the legality of open carry.

:)

[halik008]

I think we need to invite Chris Jahnke, Deputy Chief of the Royal Oak to sit down with us at a picnic or possibly even coffee at one of the many coffee houses they have in RO to discuss the legality of open carry.

:)


I was actually thinking about something fairly similar, once it warms up outside. We should throw a "LEO appreciation picnic sponsored by OC community" for the local Royal Oak. Basically have us organize a picknic that's close to the RO PD ....either my house or the park right between my house and the PD....where we would encourage all the RO LEOs to stop by if they want and have some grub with us if they want.

Basic eligibility for free grub would be: OC, uniform, or displayed shield......just so we can guarantee the food is reserved for the intended parties :)