Centerfire At Night for Hunting of Raccoon, Opossum, Fox, and Coyotes

[10x25mm]

A scratch group of predator hunters have been working to get the Michigan Natural Resources Commission to approve Wildlife Conservation Order Amendment No. 11 of 2016. This amendment would allow the use of centerfire rifles up to caliber 6.5mm with night vision and thermal vision sights to be used to hunt raccoon, opossum, fox, and coyotes at night. Current Michigan hunting regulations only permit shotguns to be used on these varmints at night.

Haven't been able to get the current text of Wildlife Conservation Order Amendment No. 11 of 2016, probably because it is still being amended. But it did appear on the NRC November agenda and minutes:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/November_Agenda_539303_7.pdf

It appears that Dale Hendershot over at Michigan Trappers and Predator Callers is leading the charge on this:

http://mtpca.com/

There is some further information in a thread at Michigan-Sportsman.com:

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/threads/update-on-center-fire-at-night.577800/

Sounds fun, unless the DNR bureaucrats turn it into another legal labyrinth.

[steve77]

I guess I can support centerfire for animals in the ground, but don't think it is a good idea to shoot a 6.5 skyward in the daylight or dark. I'll be honest, I'm pretty Libertarian and don't like regulations that are unnecessary. I also kinda see the purpose of the centerfire ban after dark. If a guy is running coon dogs on a piece of ground and isn't familiar with the surrounding area, he could be sending a pretty potent round in a bad direction in the dark. I guess I'm kinda torn.

[Jackam]

Hunters spend $2.3 billion annually in the state of Michigan.
I know that if centerfire were legal at night, more of my money would get spent!

[fr3db3ar]

I can tell you that rimfire at night sucks, extreme case I had to put 6 shots into one under 40 yards to kill it. I have dropped with one shot but the few that have gotten away make me sick. I look forward to using my 223 at night on all Coyotes not just the few damage control properties I have. I'm ok with 6.5 restriction as this might allow the grendel to eat. I use thermal and call them in as close as I can. Sometimes they just won't break the 150 yard mark others they're in your lap.

Sent from somewhere in the space-time continuum.

[10x25mm]

Update

It does not appear that the NRC or the DNR has published an updated version of Wildlife Conservation Order Amendment Number 11 of 2016 subsequent to their 10 November meeting, and Dale Hendershot of Michigan Trappers and Predator Callers is incommunicado while deer hunting.

I have located a copy of the Amendment as it existed on 17 October. It is on Dropbox.com, which is a bit difficult to use unless you are a subscriber, but I have a .pdf version of the document which I can email to anyone who PMs me:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hgkz5nbswxun1ad/11WCO2016_Centerfire_INFO.pdf?dl=0

You can see how Wildlife Conservation Order Amendment Number 11 of 2016 will modify the full, current Wildlife Conservation Order by downloading it here:

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10366_37141-120756--,00.html

The specific sections of the Wildlife Conservation Order modified by the Wildlife Conservation Order Amendment Number 11 of 2016 are 2.4 and 2.5.

Keep in mind that the Amendment was significantly revised at the 10 November NRC meeting (after this draft and commentary was published in October). A lot of the niggling restrictions were removed and the caliber limitation was increased to 6.5mm. This last change is a bit concerning because I don't think anyone realizes that 6.5mm is actually 0.2559 inches. This will not permit what we consider 6.5mm caliber rifles even if 'caliber' is interpreted as bore diameter (rather than groove diameter). Typical American 6.5mm rifles have a 0.258 land diameter and a 0.264 groove diameter. European 6.5mm rifles often have a 0.260 land diameter and a 0.268 groove diameter.

Michigan Predator Hunters for Centerfire at Night appears to be organizing this effort on a FaceBust page:

https://www.facebook.com/Michigan-Predator-Hunters-for-Centerfire-at-Night-221139201555170/

The page indicates that the NRC will vote on Wildlife Conservation Order Amendment No. 11 of 2016 at their 08 December meeting to be held at the Lansing Center, 333 East Michigan Avenue in Lansing Michigan. Haven't been able to find a time for this meeting. [Was just informed that these meetings usually start at 1:00 PM, but have to confirm this] MPHfCaN would probably appreciate some support at this meeting. The DNR Wildlife Division seems somewhat diffident on this Amendment and the NRC might need some encouragement from the public.

MUCC did post an article on Centerfire at Night on 11 November which will appear in their Winter 2017 edition of Michigan Out-of-Doors magazine:

http://www.michiganoutofdoors.com/centerfire_at_night

[wrinkledshirt]

Uh oh, this may push me over the line on one of those slick IR Defense thermals...

[fr3db3ar]

I doubt anyone is going to take the battle that my grendel is NOT 6.5. That being said I'll be starting with 223 since I hope to have my stamp soon to pick up the suppressor that's currently sitting in GR waiting for me.

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[langenc]

Copied from post #5 (10x25 author)

""Keep in mind that the Amendment was significantly revised at the 10 November NRC meeting (after this draft and commentary was published in October). A lot of the niggling restrictions were removed and the caliber limitation was increased to 6.5mm. This last change is a bit concerning because I don't think anyone realizes that 6.5mm is actually 0.2559 inches. This will not permit what we consider 6.5mm caliber rifles even if 'caliber' is interpreted as bore diameter (rather than groove diameter). Typical American 6.5mm rifles have a 0.258 land diameter and a 0.264 groove diameter. European 6.5mm rifles often have a 0.260 land diameter and a 0.268 groove diameter.""

Is this another case of intending 6.5 cal (264 dia bullets) but some dummie didn't know how to write the rules?? Probably.

[fr3db3ar]

We're work on a resolution to this issue by stating a decimal. I'm not privy to what that number will be.

Sent from somewhere in the space-time continuum.

[10x25mm]

This would be my recommended language:


1) Any cartridge with an unfired bullet diameter not exceeding 0.2690 inches (6.833 mm), as specified in:

a) the cartridge's drawing illustrated in ANSI/SAAMI Z229.3, American National Standard Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Pistol and Revolver Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Ammunition Manufacturers, or

b) the cartridge's drawing illustrated in ANSI/SAAMI Z229.4, American National Standard Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Rifle Sporting Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Ammunition Manufacturers, or

c) any subsequent, supplemental cartridge dimensional drawing issued by SAAMI under the aegis of ANSI, pursuant to either foregoing standard

2) Any cartridge not covered by an ANSI/SAAMI standard or cartridge dimensional drawing whose actual maximum unfired bullet diameter does not exceed 0.2690 inches (6.833 mm), when measured by a legal metrology device calibrated to standards traceable to the National Institute of Standards and Technology in accordance with current NIST recommended practices.

This may seem wordy, but the idea is to eliminate bullet measurement of common cartridges. You want to refer to ANSI standards wherever possible because there are a lot of dubious/wrong cartridge drawings out there. The Section 2) would cover 'wildcat' and oddball foreign cartridges which don't have SAAMI drawings (there are many). The NIST reference prevents people from using defective measuring devices (an MSP and DNR specialty!) and effectively establishes an accuracy standard.

The 0.2690 inches (6.833 mm) unfired bullet diameter cap allows all known 6.5mm cartridges, while excluding all .270/6.8mm cartridges.

Have at it. Always open to improvements.

The ANSI/SAAMI Z229 cartridge drawing standards are available for free download here:

http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm

[10x25mm]

The NRC has scheduled a final vote on 'Centerfire at Night' at their Thursday, 08 December meeting. Agenda with approximate times here:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/December_542694_7.pdf

Still haven't found the exact current language of Wildlife Conservation Order Amendment No. 11 of 2016 which will be voted on. Michigan Predator Hunters for Centerfire at Night would probably appreciate some support at this meeting. The DNR Wildlife Division seems somewhat diffident on this Amendment and the NRC might need some encouragement from the public.

[fr3db3ar]

We can always use more support. The more people there through better as long as you can formulate a constructive and cohesive opinion.

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[wrinkledshirt]

I thought I read that DNR/LEOs are opposed to this because they don't want ANYONE legally moving about at night with a centerfire rifle. Is this accurate? I'm just trying to get a handle on their views as we get close to a possible resolution.

[fr3db3ar]

Yes they are opposed but they don't get to make the rules, thankfully.

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[DTruck]

Please explain the "6.5, but no 6.8" argument.

[fr3db3ar]

Can't. We (a larger group of people and organizations) are trying to come up with a number that we feel the NRC will accept. It seems somewhere in the 6.5 area is the number. I believe we are trying now to come to a decimal that is acceptable rather than a "caliber".

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[DTruck]

Excluding the 6.8SPC in these discussions is a huge mistake. Almost ALL of the people I speak to that have been nocturnal hunting with an AR in states that allow it use a 6.8SPC. The manufacturers that I've spoke to have confirmed that they sell more 68 barrels for this purpose than any other. It is also the #1 caliber of choice for feral boar (which are nocturnal) - What if they migrate here in the next couple years, as they're expected to? This current suggestion of 6.5 maximum will have just deleted us out of the most popular cartridge for it.
I'm all for getting at least SOMETHING passed, but an arbitrary caliber, that has no bearing on being any more or less "safe" at night, is just ludicrous.
I'd be more than happy to show detailed data and info at these committees.

[fr3db3ar]

While I agree with you, the NRC will NOT approve this with unlimited calibers. This has been stated, so somebody has to draw the the that we think WILL get approved without dragging this out to future years.

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[Roundballer]

Please explain the "6.5, but no 6.8" argument.

It is probably supplied by the same morons that put the quadruple limitation on the straight walled cartridges in rifles for the restricted firearms zone.


Straight wall case.
Minimum case length
Maximum case length
Caliber minimum


It seems to be a pattern that is applied in these "negotiations", give them everything they want right up front. Don't hold anything back for later discussions. Then come out and proudly proclaim all that "they" have done for us!


ETA:
And don't forget to ridicule any that have spoke out on how this is not reasonable, but just politics and/or legislation for the sake of legislation.

[fr3db3ar]

Well, I'd say it was different people since we weren't part of that. I don't know if MUCC was or not. We're trying to avoid all that language in our recommendations.

[10x25mm]

Tomorrow

The Natural Resources Commission plans to vote on Wildlife Conservation Order Amendment No. 11 of 2016 at their meeting to be held tomorrow at the Lansing Center, 333 East Michigan Avenue in Lansing Michigan. Three blocks east of the Capitol, between the Grand River (the watercourse, not the Avenue) and North Cedar Street.

Agenda with approximate times here:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...r_542694_7.pdf

Michigan Predator Hunters for Centerfire at Night would probably appreciate some support at this meeting. The DNR Wildlife Division seems somewhat diffident on this Amendment and the NRC might need some encouragement from the public.

[Jackam]

I hope this doesn't conflict with the Ag meeting for morel mushroom certification....

[fr3db3ar]

This has been approved with 2 restrictions.
Above the shotgun line (as stated) no use in state parks or state recreation areas. State game areas ok.
Below shotgun line private land only.

Limited everywhere to .269 and lower.

Effective immediately.

Sent from somewhere in the space-time continuum.

[steve77]

This has been approved with 2 restrictions.
Above the shotgun line (as stated) no use in state parks or state recreation areas. State game areas ok.
Below shotgun line private land only.

Limited everywhere to .269 and lower.

Effective immediately.

Sent from somewhere in the space-time continuum.

That means the 6.5 swede, creedmore, and 260 Rem are in! Hopefully, the safety concerns don't prove to be a common reality.

[Jackam]

Great news!

[DTruck]

bittersweet.... but, Grendel is in, so it's a start.

[fr3db3ar]

bittersweet.... but, Grendel is in, so it's a start.
That's the way we see it. We'll work on getting the land restriction removed over the next year. The safer everyone is the better chance we'll have for success.

We're up against all of enforcement to get this changed.

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[Casualty]

This is great news. Caliber arguments aside, I'm just glad we are making progress.

IMHO they've opened up enough calibers to feasibly hunt the common stuff that we go out for.

I'm glad it passed before savage made a left handed b.mag. :)

[evilcoon]

Ahhh no 300 blackout, bummer. I guess we'll take whatever we can get.

[matt11]

I hope this doesn't conflict with the Ag meeting for morel mushroom certification....

What?

[Jackam]

I hope this doesn't conflict with the Ag meeting for morel mushroom certification....

What?

Meetings took place at the same time.

[Roundballer]

What?

It is just something else the State has put regulations on, where they have no business being.

[steve77]

This is great news. Caliber arguments aside, I'm just glad we are making progress.

IMHO they've opened up enough calibers to feasibly hunt the common stuff that we go out for.

I'm glad it passed before savage made a left handed b.mag. :)

My hunting partner sells is a gun salesman at a local shop. When I told him about the new regs, his first comment was "well I can scratch the BMAG off my wish list!"

He just earned a Ruger American in .260 and a Vortex scope for "Free" as promos for selling enough ruger and vortex items. He is ready to chase some coyote with it now.

I'm kicking myself for selling my Leupold VX-R. I decided it was more than I needed for my 22 mag for coyote, but it sure would be perfect for a centerfire.

[sva01]

Do any of you know of a link to the DNR, for the official language, that shows the approval?

[fr3db3ar]

I don't have a link but I do have this.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170103/2132b2b535d96e13a06a371927c0cb8c.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170103/40faf0111170ca9929d993a00e494bc2.jpg

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[fr3db3ar]

Do a search for this.
michigan wildlife conservation order amendment 11

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[sva01]

Do a search for this.
michigan wildlife conservation order amendment 11

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Fantastic, thank you very much!

[10x25mm]

Centerfire at Night Makes A 'Huge Difference' at 2017 Predator Challenge

http://www.mlive.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2017/01/change_in_hunting_law_makes_hu.html


Change in hunting law makes 'huge difference' at 2017 Predator Challenge
By Cory Olsen on January 16, 2017 at 12:44 PM

KALAMAZOO, MI -- A combination of fair weather and new hunting laws led to more success this year for D&R Sports Center's fourth annual Great Lakes Predator Region Challenge last weekend.

Hunters took to the woods and fields of Michigan Friday night and checked-in their animals Sunday morning.

More than 400 hunters representing 152 teams participated and brought in 95 animals to be entered in the contest.

Winners of the contest, Eric Lewallen and Travis Inman, brought in five coyotes weighing a total of 143 pounds, 8 ounces. The sleep-deprived duo picked up their $2,000 winner's check after hunting most of Friday night, all day Saturday and into Sunday morning.

"We got our first one in the afternoon Saturday and once we got one it seemed about every hour we were getting on them," Inman said. "One was a shotgun kill and four were center-fire rifle kills."

The addition of allowing centerfire rifles at night, a change in the law enacted by the Michigan Natural Resource Commission last fall, has made an impact for the hunters.

"It was huge," Inman said. "Every year with rimfire you could always get them to come in but nine times out of ten you'd let them walk away. We went from doing 2-3 a tournament to this year five. It's a huge difference."

Hunters were limited in the past to using shotguns or .22 calibre rimfire rifles at night for hunting predators such as coyotes or fox. Now they're able to use centerfire ammunition and guns up to .269 calibre at night, a big benefit when trying to reach a suspicious coyote at more than 100 yards away.

"We've essentially doubled our effective range from 100 to 200 (yards) and you've got the knock-down power," Merle Jones, a Kalamazoo County hunter who helped get the law changed, said. "From the statistics last year there were a lot of shots that weren't taken because of the good sportsmen we have, they made the choice not to do something out of their reach."

Just 25 animals were taken during last year's event. Some of that was due to poor weather though, Jones said.

Hunters were asked to identify what calibre they were using for their successful hunts so more information could be gathered about the law's effectiveness.....

More at the hyperlink, above

[fr3db3ar]

It certainly made a difference, as did the better weather this year. However it didn't make a lick of difference for the ones we missed. :)

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[Armed Fitter]

I'm behind on times here, so I can use my AR 5.56 on yotes at night?

Does this pertain to state land?

[oldmann1967]

Hunters spend $2.3 billion annually in the state of Michigan.
I know that if centerfire were legal at night, more of my money would get spent!

You are right. A lot of money spent on fixing holes in buildings.

[Jackam]

I'm behind on times here, so I can use my AR 5.56 on yotes at night?

Does this pertain to state land?

Look at this post and read 2.4 permissable use of artificial lights (http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?368689-Centerfire-At-Night-for-Hunting-of-Raccoon-Opossum-Fox-and-Coyotes&p=2869548&viewfull=1#post2869548)

You will see your answer. :)

[Jackam]

You are right. A lot of money spent on fixing holes in buildings.

You have no idea.

[fr3db3ar]

I'm behind on times here, so I can use my AR 5.56 on yotes at night?

Does this pertain to state land?
As Jack am said but there's more. No state parks or recreation areas state wide and only on private land below the shotgun line.

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[sharpshooter8802]

I wish center fire were legal at night here. Much rather use to 243 than a 17 or 22.

[Jackam]

I wish center fire were legal at night here.

Some cals are!

[fr3db3ar]

I wish center fire were legal at night here. Much rather use to 243 than a 17 or 22.
Where are you?
Your profile says Pierson? You are above the shotgun line so you can use centerfire up to .269 on all land except state parks and rec.

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[evilcoon]

I think you should go back and read from the start. You're good to go!