OC in a Bank [Archive] - MGO Community Forum

Kimberguy1371

02-05-2009, 12:29 PM

OK so I was at Flagstar OCing and got stopped in the parking lot after I made my transaction. the manager was freaking out, I explained to her that OC was legal with a CPL in a bank. Later that day they called me saying the looked it up and I was wrong, they had the first part but didn't include the whole having a CPL, I went in today with the same law they quoted and showed it to them, and I had three woman all arguing that I was wrong and not really willing to listen. They said the law stated that I have to conceal my pistol. Once again they are wrong...

If I am incorrect in this please advise.
I sent an e-mail to the MSP asking for their infinite wisdom.

who dat

02-05-2009, 12:33 PM

I believe you are right, and here is the letter that explains part of it.

Good afternoon,

Michigan Concealed Pistol Licenses grant the holder permission to carry a concealed pistol, but they do not require concealed carry. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in places where it would be lawful to do so without a CPL.

Sincerely,

Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441

Tallbear

02-05-2009, 12:33 PM

I have to ask............If you have a CPL, why would you want to open carry in a bank?

dougwg

02-05-2009, 12:34 PM

We have already gotten a responce from MSP on this matter.

With a CPL it is legal to OC in a bank.

They can ask you to leave (if you don't, it's trespass)
Federal bank are still a no go!

You are right and they are wrong but now they can bar you from the property.

Rugergirl

02-05-2009, 12:35 PM

Done Deal

02-05-2009, 12:35 PM

I have to ask............If you have a CPL, why would you want to open carry in a bank?

I was thinking the same thing and just sat here shaking my head....

And, even if the law permits, if the bank employees say no....then I would think that OC is unwelcome in their establishment.

who dat

02-05-2009, 12:36 PM

I have to ask............If you have a CPL, why would you want to open carry in a bank?
How do you expect to help if you keep throwing logic and reason into the discussion??

Done Deal

02-05-2009, 12:36 PM

Time to find a new bank!

Why, because they don't like cowboys and cowgirls?

IMHO, to OC in a bank is nothing more than looking for trouble and who needs it?

esq_stu

02-05-2009, 12:36 PM

:popcorn: this has been discussed a lot here, so I think I'll just watch

Rolex Dr.

02-05-2009, 12:38 PM

i dont know how to post the pic of

"OH shit not his again!!"

who dat

02-05-2009, 12:45 PM

i dont know how to post the pic of

"OH shit not his again!!"
I got your back:

RifleGuy

02-05-2009, 12:46 PM

:popcorn: this has been discussed a lot here, so I think I'll just watch
Pass the butter, please? :lol:

Imshootin

02-05-2009, 12:47 PM

.........

Imshootin

02-05-2009, 12:47 PM

Ahhh, too slow.

Tallbear

02-05-2009, 12:48 PM

TFin04

02-05-2009, 12:57 PM

IMHO, to OC in a bank is nothing more than looking for trouble and who needs it?

Another item to consider is bank employees who may be carrying themselves......how are they going to view the OC person, and what is their reaction going to be?

I've only seen somebody OC'ing in public once. I had freedom of mobility and just kept an eye on them and tried to get a 'feel' for the person best I could. They seemed fine, I went about my business and left.

A bank employee does not have that freedom. They cannot just "leave" the area. All animals react when they feel cornered.

I'm not saying OC'ing is threatening any bank employee, but you don't know how each individual is going to react.

Maybe RSF can chime in with his story of a robbery where somebody tried to help but had their pistol taken from behind and used against them... bank robberies these days are usually highly planned and done by people with more than a few under their belt. Don't think it isn't a possibility.......

zigziggityzoo

02-05-2009, 01:00 PM

Why would you want to Open Carry in a bank?

Do you need a reason? Criminals conceal until they are ready to use them. Then they're brandishing or firing.

If you have a pistol in a holster in plain view, this shouldn't be cause for alarm.

dougwg

02-05-2009, 01:02 PM

He asked a question and all some of you want to do is belittle him, thats real nice of you guys.

dougwg

02-05-2009, 01:04 PM

I understand it's legal. I was wondering why "he" would want to do it.

We were both typing responses at the same time. I was not responding to you in my post but rather directly to the OP.

Kimberguy1371

02-05-2009, 01:05 PM

He asked a question and all some of you want to do is belittle him, thats real nice of you guys.

Thank you doug. My question isn't about your opinion, I simply wanted to make sure I had the law correct. And yes When I told the Manager this morning that I would be moving my money else where, She couldn't understand why.
So yes, you and I see eye to eye Rugergirl.

dougwg

02-05-2009, 01:05 PM

Do you need a reason? Criminals conceal until they are ready to use them. Then they're brandishing or firing.

If you have a pistol in a holster in plain view, this shouldn't be cause for alarm.

I'm sure we all agree that it "SHOULDN'T" but that doesn't mean that some times it IS.

detroit_fan

02-05-2009, 02:21 PM

I don't understand why some of you are so against oc? shouldn't we be supporting ALL types of carry.

Leader

02-05-2009, 02:29 PM

Why, because they don't like cowboys and cowgirls?

IMHO, to OC in a bank is nothing more than looking for trouble and who needs it?

From what I have seen, you don't think OC is EVER right.
The fact that it is 100% legal means nothing to you, people still shouldn't do it.

slowmo44

02-05-2009, 02:30 PM

i'm surprised you can get in any Flagstar Bank, whether conceald or not. The Flagstar in Ann Arbor/Ypsi has a 2 door system (the one behind you closes before the one in front opens, locking you in) and says no weapons allowed, and says something about having a metal detector you pass through between the 2 doors.

Tallbear

02-05-2009, 02:53 PM

Do you need a reason? Criminals conceal until they are ready to use them. Then they're brandishing or firing.

If you have a pistol in a holster in plain view, this shouldn't be cause for alarm.

Not asking for a "general" reason for doing it. Asking "kimberguy" why "he" would want to do it.

dhrith

02-05-2009, 05:39 PM

#2

http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq1/howie0607/skeletor/Notthisshitagain.jpg

;p

Done Deal

02-05-2009, 06:02 PM

The fact that it is 100% legal means nothing to you, people still shouldn't do it.

It is 100% legal for me to drink myself into a stupor too but, that doesn't mean that it won't cause problems if I do.

There is legality and there is good common sense.

OC in a bank lacks good commons sense as far as I am concerned.

esq_stu

02-05-2009, 06:21 PM

I don't understand why some of you are so against oc? shouldn't we be supporting ALL types of carry.I know, I know. I'm all in favor of having John Q call the police on me, being ordered at gunpoint to assume the position, put in the back of a squadcar while a local yokel calls his chief to find out whether OC is legal with a CPL, and then the chief calls the prosecutor because he doesn't know either. Why in the world wouldn't everyone want to experience that on a regular basis?:shake:

I know I'm supposed to just be watching but . . .:bounce:

Couldn't resist. OK back to watching the show.:popcorn:

TFin04

02-05-2009, 06:30 PM

Question-

How would the OP react if an armored truck driver came in while you were there? A police officer?

What if the overzealous (and 99.99% of the time severely under-trained) truck driver drew his weapon?

Venator12

02-05-2009, 09:44 PM

What if What if what if.... If you know where any of these what ifs have occurred please cite them. Of the thousands of hours people have OCed in Michigan and around the country the times people get hassled for OCing is very small and tends to happen to the younger male demographic. I OC quite often and have never been arrested or thrown in a patrol car, or been shot at, or had anyone run away from me screaming. And that is the experience of most OCers.

Ocing is a personal decision and shouldn't be ridiculed out of hand. If it's not for you fine, but you need not disparage those that choose to.

Hugle

02-05-2009, 10:07 PM

:popcorn: this has been discussed a lot here, so I think I'll just watch
Can I share?

Done Deal

02-06-2009, 09:24 AM

Ocing is a personal decision and shouldn't be ridiculed out of hand. If it's not for you fine, but you need not disparage those that choose to.

He asked if he was wrong to OC in a bank.

Legally, no.

But, what was it that Forrest Gump said? "Stupid is as stupid does"

While OC is indeed a personal decision within the confines of the law, the who, what, when, where, why, and and how of it is bound to be called into question by folks.

Conventional wisdom might say, if you don't want to be shot at, don't stroll onto a range with a bullseye on your chest.

You can defend the right until you are blue in the face but.....what about the wisdom demonstrated by OC in a bank?

Rugergirl

02-06-2009, 09:52 AM

Thank you doug. My question isn't about your opinion, I simply wanted to make sure I had the law correct. And yes When I told the Manager this morning that I would be moving my money else where, She couldn't understand why.
So yes, you and I see eye to eye Rugergirl.
I don't OC, to me there I certain things I'd rather keep private.
As far as businesses that don't allow legal weapons, I just don't do business with them. If my gun is not welcome in someones establishment, they are not welcome to what is in my wallet, plain and simple.
Maybe I just have a bit of an attitude, but I don't like having my rights infringed.

Done Deal

02-06-2009, 11:45 AM

I don't OC, to me there I certain things I'd rather keep private.
As far as businesses that don't allow legal weapons, I just don't do business with them. If my gun is not welcome in someones establishment, they are not welcome to what is in my wallet, plain and simple.
Maybe I just have a bit of an attitude, but I don't like having my rights infringed.

If I interpreted what the OP had to say correctly, it wasn't the gun that was the problem, it was the manner in which it was carried.

And speaking of rights....that bank has the right to prevent folks from causing alarm or worse for the other patrons....and you have the right not to frequent the place.

Scoop

02-06-2009, 11:57 AM

OCing is a personal decision and shouldn't be ridiculed out of hand. If it's not for you fine, but you need not disparage those that choose to.So is sleeping with your grandmother, jumping off of a tall building, or poking yourself in the eye with a flaming, AIDS infected sharp stick.

But just because it's a personal decision isn't going to stop me from calling someone stupid for doing stupid things. ;)

Venator12

02-06-2009, 12:09 PM

So is sleeping with your grandmother, jumping off of a tall building, or poking yourself in the eye with a flaming, AIDS infected sharp stick.

But just because it's a personal decision isn't going to stop me from calling someone stupid for doing stupid things. ;)

The things mentioned above either cause you harm (HIV sticky thing) or are against the law (incest, suicide). OCing doesn't willing cause harm to the OCer or anyone else.

And of course anyone is allowed to call someone stupid if they want, but sometimes doing so tells more about the caller than the person being called.

How about sleeping with someone elses grandmother:scratch: that should be ok.

who dat

02-06-2009, 12:14 PM

The things mentioned above either cause you harm (HIV sticky thing) or are against the law (incest, suicide). OCing doesn't willing cause harm to the OCer or anyone else.

And of course anyone is allowed to call someone stupid if they want, but sometimes doing so tells more about the caller than the person being called.

How about sleeping with someone elses grandmother:scratch: that should be ok.
I'm sure that there is a Hot Grandma website out there......but I ain't lookin' for it!

Leader

02-06-2009, 12:41 PM

I'm sure that there is a Hot Grandma website out there......but I ain't lookin' for it!

Hummmm... The lady I slept with last night is a Grandmother...

Tallbear

02-06-2009, 12:49 PM

This thread isn't about sharp sticks, AIDs or tall buildings. The question is about open carry in a bank. Not if it should or should not be done, but if it was/is legal.

Discuss this or we can lock the thread since the answer has already been given.

Scoop

02-06-2009, 12:52 PM

OCing doesn't willing cause harm to the OCer or anyone else.That's your opinion, but not mine.

Sure, we can dig up the old "show me proof" arguement.

Then again, I don't need a damn web site citation to prove to me that something stupid is stupid.

:twocents:

Scoop

02-06-2009, 12:58 PM

This thread isn't about sharp sticks, AIDs or tall buildings. The question is about open carry in a bank. Not if it should or should not be done, but if it was/is legal. The thread is about the freedom to do something and whether or not doing it is wise or unwise.

I drew an analogy: stupid things that aren't made "smart", just because people have the freedom TO do them.

If you believe that drawing an analogy to explain a point is off-topic, then there's little I can do to change your mind.

But then again, that's your personal choice to make, wise or unwise, right? :thup:

Scoop

02-06-2009, 12:59 PM

Hummmm... The lady I slept with last night is a Grandmother...Yes, but was she YOUR grandmother? :brow:

fotophocus

02-06-2009, 01:13 PM

Yes, but was she YOUR grandmother? :brow:
http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/GG/lonzo_oscar.jpg

Tallbear

02-06-2009, 01:44 PM

The thread is about the freedom to do something and whether or not doing it is wise or unwise.

:thup:

And where does is it asked "whether or not doing it is wise or unwise"?

OK so I was at Flagstar OCing and got stopped in the parking lot after I made my transaction. the manager was freaking out, I explained to her that OC was legal with a CPL in a bank. Later that day they called me saying the looked it up and I was wrong, they had the first part but didn't include the whole having a CPL, I went in today with the same law they quoted and showed it to them, and I had three woman all arguing that I was wrong and not really willing to listen. They said the law stated that I have to conceal my pistol. Once again they are wrong...

If I am incorrect in this please advise.
I sent an e-mail to the MSP asking for their infinite wisdom.

Jim Simmons

02-06-2009, 02:28 PM

I believe OC in a bank is not a good idea, because it casts firearms owners in an unfavorable light. "Antis" will use it to argue that gun owners are gun nuts, that gun owners want to strut around (John Wayne references often abound), and that we're on some sort of power kick. They will argue that if open carry is legal, then there's no way to tell a lawful citizen from a bank robber.

Like it or not, OC worries the LEOs, frightens the women, and scares the kids. (Not all LEOs, women, or kids, but you get the idea.) And that kind of negative publicity can only work against us, especially now when we have a state legislature, and a Congress and President, that are ready to dump on us at the first opportunity.

They don't need another Columbine, or another North Hollywood shootout, or another Virginia Tech to kickstart their gun control agenda. All they need is some somebody to get enough negative press for just carrying a gun. Possibly that kid in Wayne County, possibly some guy carrying a pistol on his belt in a bank -- a security cam photo showing "rambo" with his gun, and a couple of frightened moms, preferably with crying kids in tow, and it's game on.

In today's society, it comes down to this: open carry, in public places, is just rude.

dougwg

02-06-2009, 02:37 PM

I believe OC in a bank is not a good idea, snip

In today's society, it comes down to this: open carry, in public places, is just rude.

:deadhorse:

Careful you don't break that stick and get a splinter, you're beating that horse pretty hard.

dougwg

02-06-2009, 02:45 PM

BTW: I have first hand knowledge that OC does NOT "scares the kids".

On this particular point, you are either talking out your ass or something else.

Done Deal

02-06-2009, 02:53 PM

BTW: I have first hand knowledge that OC does NOT "scares the kids".

On this particular point, you are either talking out your ass or something else.

Categorically, you are mistaken. OC may or may not scare the kids. It depends.

For example, our real kids are grown and gone and OC would scare neither but, get their attention for sure (they both have CPL's).

But, our "kids" now both have four legs. The one dog is afraid of guns...pure and simple....and I really don't know why other than it is because his "mom" has made off the wall comments over the years. The other dog isn't phased.

Neither dogs have a reason to be "gun shy" much less get nervous at the mere sight of guns.

But, I believe that "mom" has singlehandedly manage to make the one dog fear them (heck, he is afraid of tape measures too but, my wonder son did that to him) for no good reason.

So, it is not only possible but quite probable that an "anti" mom could through her response, make a child fear the sight of a real gun carried by somebody in a bank....and the media would eat it up with their carefully framed questions and only show what they wanted to show. Just look at all the comments made by the public that were aired about the soccer mom...

Joeywhat

02-06-2009, 02:56 PM

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j151/joeywhat/Animations/Jackson_popcorn.gif

dougwg

02-06-2009, 03:01 PM

Categorically, snip...

You sure are kooky :scratch: My cat is afraid of snow too...

DetroitBiker

02-06-2009, 03:11 PM

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j151/joeywhat/Animations/Jackson_popcorn.gif :rofl:

Venator12

02-06-2009, 03:12 PM

I
In today's society, it comes down to this: open carry, in public places, is just rude.
WOW, so much for the state and US constitution. It guess it's rude to assert my 5th amd, right, or to express my 1st adm. right or to refuse to any unlawful searches and seizures that's my 4th amd right. FOR THOSE WITHOUT A CPL OC is the only option. When you have a CPL it's an option. We are equal or we are not. I refuse too walk on glass in fear of losing a right some feel is already lost..that of OCing. Gun owners must come out of the closet and stand for all gun rights.

mechredd

02-06-2009, 05:10 PM

I think that you are legally right, but I would recommend against it, as it would cause an unnecessary panic.

If you have your CPL, then why would you OC in a bank?

dougwg

02-06-2009, 05:16 PM

I know that you are legally right, but I would recommend against it, as it could cause an unnecessary panic.

If you have your CPL, then why would you OC in a bank?

Fixed it for ya.

Leader

02-06-2009, 05:37 PM

I think that you are legally right, but I would recommend against it, as it would cause an unnecessary panic.

If you have your CPL, then why would you OC in a bank?

I went back & reread the OP and couldn't find the part about causing a panic. Would you mind pointing it out to me?
What I saw was a manager mistaken about the law. So scared in fact that she didn't even call the police to contain the panic or arrest the violator. She was so scared that she actually went up to and confronted the person with the gun even though she was unarmed.
Seems as though none of the other customers in the bank did either. And nobody shot the OP.
Reporters weren't called, no bad press. None of the bad things so many here said would happen did happen.
In my mind, I think just maybe it might not be as bad as some here try to make it out to be.
The reports from people that ACTUALLY do open carry don't include all these bad things happening or the fear & panic that are predicted in most cases.
Why is that ?
Ahhhhh... I see.. "All it takes is one".
Why doesn't that work with anything else?

mechredd

02-06-2009, 05:43 PM

Done Deal

02-06-2009, 05:51 PM

Well, Heaven forbid that some soccer mom (not the gun toting soccer mom) scream out ----" OMG--he's got a gun!!!! Please don't kill me....take their money...."

News at 11....

Leader

02-06-2009, 06:19 PM

Unnecessary panic is an unwritten rule, more like an excuse, that police sometimes use to detain and/or question people. It was discussed often while I was going for my LE degree, and It was discussed at my CPL class. I did see it used once at work also.

It is also a prelude to Disturbing the Peace, as people whom are arrested of creating an unnecessary panic, are usually charged with DTP.

Ok .. but Just what IS an "unnecessary panic"?

And what in the original post led you to believe any panic was involved?

Are you saying that police can claim "unnecessary panic" anytime they want to harass someone for doing something that is 100% legal but they don't approve of? Is that what you were taught at LE school?

nisjer05

02-06-2009, 06:41 PM

Well, Heaven forbid that some soccer mom (not the gun toting soccer mom) scream out ----" OMG--he's got a gun!!!! Please don't kill me....take their money...."

News at 11....

At this point, wouldn't it be the soccer mom that is Disturbing the Peace, or Inciting a Riot. If someone is unrestrained enough to shout something like this, their fault. Kind of like shouting "Fire" in a theater. Just a thought.

Kimberguy1371

02-06-2009, 07:06 PM

Mr. Spice,

Nothing in Michigan law requires a CPL holder to carry a pistol concealed; a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol. However, it's worth noting that private property owners (e.g., banks) are free to prohibit anyone from carrying a pistol on their property, and they also have the right to ask a person to leave. Therefore, we suggest carrying your pistol concealed.

Sincerely,

Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441

now it think it is sad that we can not support each other, because like the AWB... they will take us down one at a time. And it will be too late by the time we realize it.

OC is a RIGHT!

mechredd

02-06-2009, 07:12 PM

Ok .. but Just what IS an "unnecessary panic"?

And what in the original post led you to believe any panic was involved?

Are you saying that police can claim "unnecessary panic" anytime they want to harass someone for doing something that is 100% legal but they don't approve of? Is that what you were taught at LE school?

A unnecessary panic is essentially an unwarranted state of panic or concern that can lead to a dangerous situation. Basically something occurs that causes people to perceive a danger that does not exist, and those people, in a frightened state of mind, will then create an unsafe situation.

For example. You are OCing in public. Although there is no real threat of danger from you, people who see your holstered weapon feel, concerned and eventually become afraid. One person, in defense to a danger that does not exist, attacks you creating a very real danger.
Things like this have happened. A true story posted by an MGO member a few weeks ago, involved this member OCing in a gas station. A person that didn't know about the OC law, got the police involved. Fortunately the officer defended the rights of our fellow member, but things could have ended differently.

The police can use it to harass people, but usually use it to get people to comply with their instructions, or as an excuse to stop and hold a suspicious person.
When I seen it used, there were some "urban" youths, as the complainant called them, just hanging around in a store parking lot. The officer I was assigned to and his partner, showed up and told the kids to go home. The kids weren't breaking any laws, but some of the shoppers didn't like them being there. The officers explained the situation to them and asked them to to leave. One of them decided to be a smart ass and mouth off to the officers. He was taken into custody for purposefully inciting an unnecessary panic with the shoppers. The kid was released when his mom came to get him.

As for the original post, I was just saying that it panic was a possibility.

Leader

02-06-2009, 08:19 PM

So... I do nothing wrong.

Someone else attacks me.

They say I scared them.

I get arrested?????

who dat

02-06-2009, 08:40 PM

:bs:

Causing panic and perceiving panic are two different things. Show me MCL against causing panic. There are already firearms laws defining brandishing and just carrying isn't brandishing.

I am not an OC believer, but I do support those who choose to exercise their right to do so, no matter how foolish I believe it is.:nono:

Done Deal

02-06-2009, 09:37 PM

I am not an OC believer, but I do support those who choose to exercise their right to do so, no matter how foolish I believe it is.

I agree, everybody should have the right to act foolish.

But, there are those that think such foolishness might have a negative impact on their rights so.....around and around we go.....

mechredd

02-07-2009, 01:12 AM

So... I do nothing wrong.

Someone else attacks me.

They say I scared them.

I get arrested?????

That sounds about right.

You being arrested probably wont happen, but it is a very slim possibility, that the DTP law allows for. It can be argued that your act of OCing caused a situation which disturbed the peace. A decent cop wont arrest you, and if for some reason you do get arrested, any judge or prosecutor that bothers to read the law wont have any thing to do with the case. The technicality still remains, however.

You need to understand that with the law, there is always a way to screw someone who is doing nothing wrong. Michigan, in particular, has so many contradicting laws that are either so vague or so over explained, that the MCL is used as an example of confusion and lack of understanding by other states.

dougwg

02-07-2009, 03:12 AM

Ok, thats it.

I'm not going to Open Carry any more. I'm going to conceal carry just like this!

:arrow:

Leader

02-07-2009, 07:00 AM

Ok... so if I jump a policeman, beat the crap out of him, say he scared me, ... I can have him arrested?

I think dougwg has the right idea, I'll just keep my gun *concealed*.

Done Deal

02-07-2009, 09:49 AM

Ok... so if I jump a policeman, beat the crap out of him, say he scared me, ... I can have him arrested?

Sure, but......can we watch?

zigziggityzoo

02-07-2009, 11:20 AM

That sounds about right.

You being arrested probably wont happen, but it is a very slim possibility, that the DTP law allows for. It can be argued that your act of OCing caused a situation which disturbed the peace. A decent cop wont arrest you, and if for some reason you do get arrested, any judge or prosecutor that bothers to read the law wont have any thing to do with the case. The technicality still remains, however.

You need to understand that with the law, there is always a way to screw someone who is doing nothing wrong. Michigan, in particular, has so many contradicting laws that are either so vague or so over explained, that the MCL is used as an example of confusion and lack of understanding by other states.

Please Cite MCL regarding disturbing the peace. And if it's not in the MCL, then NO LOCAL GOV'T can regulate ANYTHING having to do with carrying a firearm. Simple as that.

Closest I could find is disorderly conduct. This doesn't apply either as a disorderly person is clearly defined in MCL: HERE. (http://legislature.mi.gov/(S(r0kqfeqked4in555q5ikod45))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-750-167&query=on&highlight=Disorderly%20AND%20Conduct)

mechredd

02-07-2009, 08:31 PM

It falls under article F

(f) A person who is engaged in indecent or obscene conduct in a public place.

I couldn't find an exact number, but there have been citations issued and and arrests made, but there has been no successful prosecution.

You must understand that article F is a loop-hole because what one person finds to be acceptable behavior, another may not.

Please remember that there is a difference between an arrest/ticket, and a conviction. You can get arrested for any reason, but a preponderance of evidence is needed before you can be charged. If a PoE does not exist, then you will be released. The open carry law is the reason why no one whom has been charged with disorderly conduct for OC, has been convicted.

I do support the OC law, I'm just trying to describe how something rare could happen. While researching for this post, I could not find an exact number of arrest made, or tickets issued, but I did find that these things did occur, but like I said above, there has been no successful prosecution made. I couldn't find a court case either, so I believe that either no charges have ever been filed, because the OC law takes precedent.

who dat

02-07-2009, 08:59 PM

mechredd

02-07-2009, 09:04 PM

There is also an AG opinion that specifically says that simply showing or simply having a firearm doesn't mean it's brandishing by definition.

If you can't find the law, yet you say there have been arrests, show the details, the charges, the adjudication. If there were, under the terms you state, there must have been some crappy lawyers on the case.

I'm not buying what you're selling.

Who mentioned anything about brandishing, and why did you take my comment out of context?

who dat

02-07-2009, 09:14 PM

Who mentioned anything about brandishing, and why did you take my comment out of context?
I took nothing out of context. In 5 previous posts you have claimed that these loopholes exist and I simply ask for proof of your last boast.

You started with talk of "causing unnecessary panic" and finally claimed that "there were arrests made". I'm just calling you on it. This whole allegation is crap, IMO. It's been discussed many times before, and no one has ever stood up and proved it.

So show the case it happened.

Leader

02-07-2009, 09:50 PM

mechredd

02-07-2009, 10:59 PM

Ok... Now I have to ask.. Where did you find this? I and MANY others have been looking for it for years. Is it in the MCL someplace?
And I must say this is the first time open carry has been called "indecent or obscene conduct" although pistols have been called a substitute for something else.
This is a possible interpretation of Disorderly Conduct. An interpretation that I do not in any way support.

While doing several searches, I was able to find references to arrests and tickets, but nothing about charges. I stumbled across a forum discussing open carry, with a post from a few years back. The post contained a quote from a site that compiles legal precedences. This sight said that there were multiple reports of arrests and/or citations under section F of the disorderly conduct statute, but there has never been a successful prosecution under this law. The MCL number and link was also posted. I did a search for the legal site, but the URL turned up for sale.

I also dug out my notes from class, and I had something similar to this written down, but without any MCL or case numbers. This is why I believe that there is no specific statute, but rather an interpretation, or rather misinterpretation of a different law.

One of the things that was constantly stressed in my criminal law class, was that the writing on the paper and how those words are viewed are two different things.

Take the Heller case for example. We all know what the 2nd amendment says, but as one MGO member put it, it took 4 traitors and 5 fools to figure out what it means.

Venator12

02-07-2009, 11:13 PM

Perhaps the cases on the open carry forum are from other states. Unfortunately in Wisconsin that is the common arrest made for OC and some have been convicted.

If you go to the Wisconsin forum at opencarry.org http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/ You can read about some of the crap OCers get from the PD.

If you go here you can see a case where a man was OCing (Legal in Wisconsin) in his own yard and is going to court for DC.
See link here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/19480.html

The AG in Wisconsin won't make an opinion on OC, but OC is growing there as they try to get concealed carry legal.

mechredd

02-07-2009, 11:19 PM

That sucks. If there have been convictions in Wisconsin, the other states can cite that as legal precedence if they do not have any of their own.

Kimberguy1371

02-07-2009, 11:22 PM

I personally will not live in fear of all the "what if's" I exercise my right well within the confines of the laws, and I cause no harm to anyone by doing such. I have been in cuffs for it, and I am willing to be a possible test case(though i'm not running for that goal) My 2A rights are not different than my 1A rights! If I am going to be harassed now for carrying a firearm, how long before I'm harassed for talking to my fiancee about politics and my views and ideas in public, and believe me, people have giving me looks of death before. I have drawn the line.

"LIVE FREE OR DIE!"

Done Deal

02-07-2009, 11:41 PM

I exercise my right well within the confines of the laws, and I cause no harm to anyone by doing such. I have been in cuffs for it, and I am willing to be a possible test case(though i'm not running for that goal)

Purchasing that LCP sounded like a good way to avoid problems, especially since you know how well the little guy conceals....

Kimberguy1371

02-08-2009, 12:17 AM

Purchasing that LCP sounded like a good way to avoid problems, especially since you know how well the little guy conceals....

The lcp is for the lady... she isn't comfortable with me OCing yet. and it makes a great BUG... I also don't OC at clients houses, and my job doesn't allow me to carry....

Done Deal

02-08-2009, 08:06 AM

The lcp is for the lady... she isn't comfortable with me OCing yet. and it makes a great BUG... I also don't OC at clients houses, and my job doesn't allow me to carry....

:shock:
Ok, I'll bite....

and why don't your OC at clients houses?????

tech411

02-08-2009, 09:48 AM

Because his job does not allow him to carry.

Kimberguy1371

02-08-2009, 12:24 PM

Because his job does not allow him to carry.

Hit the nail on the head...

Just A Girl

02-08-2009, 04:01 PM

In today's society, it comes down to this: open carry, in public places, is just rude.

Helloooo . . . . Miss Manners . . . Is that you??

MINISFORME

02-08-2009, 04:29 PM

But a person with a CPL (Michigan resident) can carry CONCEALED in a bank, correct?

As long as it is not a Federal Bank, I understand.

Jeff

who dat

02-08-2009, 04:31 PM

But a person with a CPL (Michigan resident) can carry CONCEALED in a bank, correct?

As long as it is not a Federal Bank, I understand.

Jeff
That is correct.

MINISFORME

02-08-2009, 04:34 PM

Ok, now what exactly is a Federal Bank??

Jeff

who dat

02-08-2009, 04:41 PM

Ok, now what exactly is a Federal Bank??

Jeff
Good question...I understand there is one in Detroit, so it's likely you will never encounter one.

PhotoTom

02-08-2009, 05:00 PM

Ok, now what exactly is a Federal Bank??

Jeff

It is a bank...owned and operated by the Federal government...

Knimrod

02-08-2009, 05:49 PM

It is a bank...owned and operated by the Federal government...

Heh... I think they all are now...or will soon be.

:hope:

Leader

02-08-2009, 05:50 PM

But a person with a CPL (Michigan resident) can carry CONCEALED in a bank, correct?

As long as it is not a Federal Bank, I understand.

Jeff

Now why would any fool want to do that?
What if someone sees it?
You want to get shot?
You want to be proned out on the floor with a gun to your head?
You're going to give gun owners a bad name & fuel to the anti's.
Sure it,s legal but is it prudent???????

who dat

02-08-2009, 05:58 PM

Now why would any fool want to do that?
What if someone sees it?
You want to get shot?
You want to be proned out on the floor with a gun to your head?
You're going to give gun owners a bad name & fuel to the anti's.
Sure it,s legal but is it prudent???????
What??? I carry wherever it's legal and I go to banks. Why would you not carry concealed in a bank?

If you were being sarcastic, a few smilies are in order.

TFin04

02-08-2009, 06:00 PM

I OC quite often and have never been arrested or thrown in a patrol car, or been shot at, or had anyone run away from me screaming. And that is the experience of most OCers.

I just saw this.

By that logic, none of us should be carrying guns at all.

Raspberrysurprise

02-08-2009, 06:16 PM

I just saw this.

By that logic, none of us should be carrying guns at all.

Your logic is faulty, the consequences of being arrested are rarely lethal, whereas the consequences of being unable to defend yourself can quite easily be so.

TFin04

02-08-2009, 06:24 PM

Your logic is faulty, the consequences of being arrested are rarely lethal, whereas the consequences of being unable to defend yourself can quite easily be so.
No, the logic is that just because "it hasn't happened before" doesn't mean it cant or wont happen. The OC crowd often creates an argument that since XYZ has never happened before means it shouldn't be debated.

Has anyone here shot somebody in self defense? I know of a few, but I bet 99% of us never have. For those who haven't, couldn't somebody create the same argument that since it has never happened before, you shouldn't carry your gun at all?

MINISFORME

02-08-2009, 06:40 PM

Now why would any fool want to do that?
What if someone sees it?
You want to get shot?
You want to be proned out on the floor with a gun to your head?
You're going to give gun owners a bad name & fuel to the anti's.
Sure it,s legal but is it prudent???????

Here's the deal fella--------I am talking about carrying CONCEALED, not open carrying in a bank. (Which is legal also).
Yes, I have and will again carry concealed in my local bank. If I am running errands in town and it just so happens one of my stops is at the bank, I keep the handgun CONCEALED, do my business and leave. I think it is FOOLISH to take my handgun out of it's holster, secure it in my vehicle, lock vehicle, go into bank (for maybe three minutes),do my business and go back to my vehicle. Then-----put pistol back in holster, secure, and continue on with my day.
Sounds like MAYBE you are one of those folks who are paranoid about being discovered that you are LEGALLY CARRYING a handgun. One just needs to be very diligent in making sure your handgun is CONCEALED well and then go on with your business.

Jeff

Raspberrysurprise

02-08-2009, 06:43 PM

I don't think you're getting my point.
When you say
By that logic, none of us should be carrying guns at all.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Saying that you shouldn't OC because nothing has happened yet is different then saying that because you havn't been shot at you shouldn't carry a gun. The consequences are vastly different.

P.S. I've carried in my local credit union without anyone's head exploding or being bum rushed by the police.

Done Deal

02-08-2009, 07:17 PM

Because his job does not allow him to carry.

Then whey did he put it like he did?

He said that he doesn't OC at clients homes and his job doesn't allow him to carry. He did not say because his job doesn't allow him to carry and he did not say that he is not permitted to carry at his clients homes period.

You guys must be able to really read between the lines because I sure didn't get to where you did merely from what he posted.

dougwg

02-08-2009, 09:55 PM

Here's the deal fella--------I am talking about carrying CONCEALED, not open carrying in a bank. (Which is legal also).
Yes, I have and will again carry concealed in my local bank. If I am running errands in town and it just so happens one of my stops is at the bank, I keep the handgun CONCEALED, do my business and leave. I think it is FOOLISH to take my handgun out of it's holster, secure it in my vehicle, lock vehicle, go into bank (for maybe three minutes),do my business and go back to my vehicle. Then-----put pistol back in holster, secure, and continue on with my day.
Sounds like MAYBE you are one of those folks who are paranoid about being discovered that you are LEGALLY CARRYING a handgun. One just needs to be very diligent in making sure your handgun is CONCEALED well and then go on with your business.

Jeff

HAHAHAHAHAHA

He was being VERY sarcastic.

I doubt very much that he is paraniod as you say because I know he OC's

TFin04

02-08-2009, 10:08 PM

I don't think you're getting my point.
When you say

You're comparing apples to oranges. Saying that you shouldn't OC because nothing has happened yet is different then saying that because you havn't been shot at you shouldn't carry a gun. The consequences are vastly different.

P.S. I've carried in my local credit union without anyone's head exploding or being bum rushed by the police.
Consequences was something you brought into the equation, not me.

"It's never happened before so it doesn't fit" relates to both examples, whether you want to see it that way or not.

"Carry openly because nothing bad has ever happened to me while doing it"
and
"Don't carry a gun because nothing bad has ever happened to me while (not) doing it"
use the same argument.

I don't like to get into these hair splitting OC posts. I'll not continue past this post. I don't agree with it personally but I DO agree with taking your rights as far as you can. Ya got no issues with me.

Venator12

02-08-2009, 10:23 PM

I just saw this.

By that logic, none of us should be carrying guns at all.

After reading your other posts I get what you are saying.

What I was trying to convey was that while anything could happen, the anti-OC crowd often state the same myths, that is you will be hassled by the Law, you will scare people, you will be shot first, you will be stopped at gun point, etc. When they say that they really can't back those opinions up with data. While those that OC can at least relate their experiences and opine that MOST of the time things like this DON'T happen. That's all. OC or CC I don't care, but don't spread misinformation.

Kimberguy1371

02-09-2009, 12:21 AM

Then whey did he put it like he did?

He said that he doesn't OC at clients homes and his job doesn't allow him to carry.

My apoligies DD, I suck at grammer and english, my job doesn't alow me to carry, I will always pick my life over my job.

indianajones

02-09-2009, 12:21 AM

I know, I know. I'm all in favor of having John Q call the police on me, being ordered at gunpoint to assume the position, put in the back of a squadcar while a local yokel calls his chief to find out whether OC is legal with a CPL, and then the chief calls the prosecutor because he doesn't know either. Why in the world wouldn't everyone want to experience that on a regular basis?:shake:

I know I'm supposed to just be watching but . . .:bounce:

Couldn't resist. OK back to watching the show.:popcorn:

No you'll just sit back and wait till it happens to everyone else then you'll reap the benefits when local pds get the facts straight and allow it.

halik008

02-09-2009, 09:18 AM

lead

02-09-2009, 09:45 AM

Done Deal

02-09-2009, 09:45 AM

My apoligies DD, I suck at grammer and english, my job doesn't alow me to carry, I will always pick my life over my job.

Clear...

Done Deal

02-09-2009, 09:49 AM

Venator12

02-09-2009, 09:54 AM

OC'ing in a bank is pretty useless. Has no strategic or self defense importance what so ever. If somebody is going to hold up a bank with you in it, you will be just a blatant first target.....and their guns are drawn already. So you will be the first to get disarmed or the first to get shot if you are gonna try to make a move.

Concealed carry actually makes sense in this situation. Not that I would personally try to play a hero and start a shoot you. All the money in the bank is insured, so as long as they are not shooting anybody, my handgun would stay nicely in my holster.
This happens in the movies, but where in real life? Lots of people OC all over the US, and I bet a lot do it in banks. Could your scenario happen? Yes, but you are more likely to be hit by lighting.

A person OCing is more likely to deter a bank robbery while he/she is in the bank. Bank robbers tend to stake out a bank and walk up peacefully to the teller. Rarely do they coming busting in with guns ablazing...like TV and the movies.

OC or CC in a bank I don't care, but back up your claims with some facts.

lead

02-09-2009, 09:56 AM

I think that what he is saying is that should a RA in a bank go down, he doesn't want to be the one that is OC'ing and that he woudn't want to be the cowboy that escalates the situation by trying to play hero if it wasn't necessary.

And your local bank and your home are different how?..

IMHO my community is my home..

So you're also "playing cowboy or hero" when defending your home?

halik008

02-09-2009, 09:58 AM

So what you're saying is that people should wait until someone is shot to do anything?...

Most homes are insured also, should you also wait until one of your family is shot before you do anything?..

It's not your duty to play LEO and YOU start shooting up the place. It is also not your establishment.

Just about all home break-ins are done when the BG thinks nobody is inside, thus totally different then bank hold up which is done during their business hours thus the BG expectations are totally different.

lead

02-09-2009, 10:02 AM

It's not your duty to play LEO and YOU start shooting up the place. It is also not your establishment.

Just about all home break-ins are done when the BG thinks nobody is inside, thus totally different then bank hold up which is done during their business hours thus the BG expectations are totally different.

Yes the BG expectations in a bank most of the time are that people are there.. So they are MORE likely to harm or kill someone in their attempt to get what they want..

halik008

02-09-2009, 10:03 AM

This happens in the movies, but where in real life? Lots of people OC all over the US, and I bet a lot do it in banks. Could your scenario happen? Yes, but you are more likely to be hit by lighting.

A person OCing is more likely to deter a bank robbery while he/she is in the bank. Bank robbers tend to stake out a bank and walk up peacefully to the teller. Rarely do they coming busting in with guns ablazing...like TV and the movies.

OC or CC in a bank I don't care, but back up your claims with some facts.

You don't think they wouldn't notice you OC'ing into the bank while they are staking it out and just wait for you to leave before holding it up? ;)

Leader

02-09-2009, 10:04 AM

OC'ing in a bank is pretty useless. Has no strategic or self defense importance what so ever. If somebody is going to hold up a bank with you in it, you will be just a blatant first target.....and their guns are drawn already. So you will be the first to get disarmed or the first to get shot if you are gonna try to make a move.

Concealed carry actually makes sense in this situation. Not that I would personally try to play a hero and start a shoot you. All the money in the bank is insured, so as long as they are not shooting anybody, my handgun would stay nicely in my holster.

OC'ers are painfully aware of the fact that a determined crazy drugged up madman can't be stopped just by him/her seeing a gun.
The problem is that some people think that just because there is a gun hidden in their underwear that they can stop any crime by anyone. And if they have a hidden gun that they can't even get to, they will never be shot, accosted, or in any way bothered by even the most determined criminal.
NO criminal upon seeing an armed person is going to go someplace else to rob, rape & pillage but will immediately start shooting everyone in sight.
OC'ers just can't find any evidence to back up that theory.
OC'ers can't give statistics for how many crimes are prevented because they just didn't happen when an openly carried gun was in the area.
What we can show is that the things CCer's say WILL happen ... don't.
But just because it doesn't happen doesn't mean it CAN'T according to CCer's.

halik008

02-09-2009, 10:05 AM

Yes the BG expectations in a bank most of the time are that people are there.. So they are MORE likely to harm or kill someone in their attempt to get what they want..

Nope. They are going in expecting that they are people and there might be resistance. Home burglars are generally startled if they are surprised by inhabitants of the home which generally results in shooting or assault.

lead

02-09-2009, 10:08 AM

You don't think they wouldn't notice you OC'ing into the bank while they are staking it out and just wait for you to leave before holding it up? ;)

I have no idea.. I've never ask a bank robber what their motivations are..Just like I wouldn't ask someone breaking into my home what their motivations are.

And if they are waiting for you to leave??.. Maybe they won't go in either.. It may give them the mindset that someone in there may not allow them to harm someone in their goal...

halik008

02-09-2009, 10:11 AM

I have no idea.. I've never ask a bank robber what their motivations are..Just like I wouldn't ask someone breaking into my home what their motivations are.

And if they are waiting for you to leave??.. Maybe they won't go in either.. It may give them the mindset that someone in there may not allow them to harm someone in their goal...

Again, bank robbers are going in expecting resistance, thus they prepare for it......well at least the "successful" ones. Thus your OC'ing would hardly discourage them. I bet they are lot more concerned with those who CC then those who OC....

lead

02-09-2009, 10:15 AM

Again, bank robbers are going in expecting resistance, thus they prepare for it......well at least the "successful" ones. Thus your OC'ing would hardly discourage them. I bet they are lot more concerned with those who CC then those who OC....

Anyone who going to go into a place/bank/home/college/park/high school/ etc etc.. and expect to possibly kill or harm someone isn't going to be concerned about anything..

halik008

02-09-2009, 10:24 AM

Anyone who going to go into a place/bank/home/college/park/high school/ etc etc.. and expect to possibly kill or harm someone isn't going to be concerned about anything..

Bank robbers are after money, not anybody's life.....

lead

02-09-2009, 10:29 AM

Bank robbers are after money, not anybody's life.....

Really??.. so no one has ever been killed in a bank robbery or even a hold up at a local party store?

Leader

02-09-2009, 10:31 AM

Again, bank robbers are going in expecting resistance, thus they prepare for it......well at least the "successful" ones. Thus your OC'ing would hardly discourage them. I bet they are lot more concerned with those who CC then those who OC....

Bank robbers go in thinking that the tellers have been told to GIVE THEM WHATEVER THEY WANT!!!. That's what they hear on TV and see in the papers. That is what the police tell everybody. "Don't resist" it is the mantra of law enforcement.

Venator12

02-09-2009, 10:39 AM

You don't think they wouldn't notice you OC'ing into the bank while they are staking it out and just wait for you to leave before holding it up? ;)
That's what I hope they would do. I don't want to be near any bank that is being robbed.

MOC had a post that a member was OCing at his local bank, they all knew him. While he was chatting with the teller, she went white in the face and ducked down behind the counter. The member asked what was wrong and turned around to see a man running out the door with a mask on. Apparently someone had entered the bank intent on robbing it and saw the OCer and left in a hurry. True? I don't know. If true it goes along with your statement above, although I don't think the robber came back later.

halik008

02-09-2009, 10:39 AM

Bank robbers go in thinking that the tellers have been told to GIVE THEM WHATEVER THEY WANT!!!. That's what they hear on TV and see in the papers. That is what the police tell everybody. "Don't resist" it is the mantra of law enforcement.

That's what bank tellers are trained to do actually...

halik008

02-09-2009, 10:40 AM

Really??.. so no one has ever been killed in a bank robbery or even a hold up at a local party store?

Don't be putting bank robbery and local party store hold up into the same category. Apples and oranges.

lead

02-09-2009, 10:43 AM

Don't be putting bank robbery and local party store hold up into the same category. Apples and oranges.

So, still no one has ever been harmed in a bank robbery then??

Btw.. I think most party store robbberies the motivation is money also..just like a bank..

halik008

02-09-2009, 10:47 AM

That's what I hope they would do. I don't want to be near any bank that is being robbed.

MOC had a post that a member was OCing at his local bank, they all knew him. While he was chatting with the teller, she went white in the face and ducked down behind the counter. The member asked what was wrong and turned around to see a man running out the door with a mask on. Apparently someone had entered the bank intent on robbing it and saw the OCer and left in a hurry. True? I don't know. If true it goes along with your statement above, although I don't think the robber came back later.

Sounds like a "weekend" robber that did not do his HW. I'm not talking about cases where it's a "white collar" robber....aka the one that just brings a note into the bank.....hell anything can stop those idiots...pepper spray, quick kick in the nuts, etc.

I'm saying that OC'ing does one no good in a bank when the robbers are equivalently equipped.

halik008

02-09-2009, 10:50 AM

So, still no one has ever been harmed in a bank robbery then??

Btw.. I think most party store robbberies the motivation is money also..just like a bank..

In a quick bank smash and grab, very very very rarely has anybody been seriously hurt or killed.

Party story robberies are committed by totally different kind of criminals.

lead

02-09-2009, 10:54 AM

In a quick bank smash and grab, very very very rarely has anybody been seriously hurt or killed.

Party story robberies are committed by totally different kind of criminals.

So according to you.. the best course of action to stop a bank robbery is to just say no??..

Done Deal

02-09-2009, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by halik008
OC'ing in a bank is pretty useless. Has no strategic or self defense importance what so ever. If somebody is going to hold up a bank with you in it, you will be just a blatant first target.....and their guns are drawn already. So you will be the first to get disarmed or the first to get shot if you are gonna try to make a move.

Concealed carry actually makes sense in this situation. Not that I would personally try to play a hero and start a shoot you. All the money in the bank is insured, so as long as they are not shooting anybody, my handgun would stay nicely in my holster.

Originally Posted by Leader
So what you're saying is that people should wait until someone is shot to do anything?...

I think that what he is saying is that should a RA in a bank go down, he doesn't want to be the one that is OC'ing and that he woudn't want to be the cowboy that escalates the situation by trying to play hero if it wasn't necessary.

And your local bank and your home are different how?..

IMHO my community is my home..

So you're also "playing cowboy or hero" when defending your home?

Comparing the local bank to ones own home is absurd on so many fronts.

In fact....if you don't already comprehend that....I am not even going to bother addressing the lunacy of your implications.

Meanwhile, one can only hope and pray that you are never presented with the opportunity to risk the life of others by escalating a situation without knowing WTF you are doing.

Done Deal

02-09-2009, 10:55 AM

So according to you.. the best course of action to stop a bank robbery is to just say no??..

Who put you in charge of stopping bank robberies?

halik008

02-09-2009, 10:56 AM

So according to you.. the best course of action to stop a bank robbery is to just say no??..

Are you a on duty police officer? I'm not, and nobody should play one either.

Saying that just because somebody is holding up a bank with a gun means that that person will hurt or kill somebody, is like saying all you OC'ers and CC'ers will do the same just because you carry a gun.

Leader

02-09-2009, 11:37 AM

Tallbear

02-09-2009, 11:42 AM

I only hope that those willing to get in a shootout with the bad guy ( whether OC or CC) are doing a LOT of practice with that type of scenario. Just doing "target practice" won't get it.

halik008

02-09-2009, 11:44 AM

Maybe ...Just Maybe...
Thats part of what is wrong with things today. Knowing that the police are not around and can not stop a crime of any kind, people just let it happen. Somehow you think that insurance covering a loss doesn't cost anybody anything. Maybe you actually figure it is good for the economy?
If I am in a bank and someone tries to rob it, I'm going to do what I can to prevent it. Maybe that will be nothing but just maybe, I CAN do something to help stop it and/or catch the person responsible. That will help prevent other bank robberies and help to lower insurance costs. In the long run, it will save ME money.
You should thank the OP for saving YOU money by preventing the robbery of the bank he OC'ed in.

I rather have you not "save me money".....which in the big picture costs me just pennies.....then escalate the situation since you do not know how to handle the situation which directly threatens my life even more if I'm in the bank with you.

(i don't mean "you" as you specifically, it's a generic "you")

TheTrainingTeamCPL

02-09-2009, 12:08 PM

Let me first say that I am NOT against OCing I truly believe it is your option and you have the right to do it.

We are always complaining about the "anti's" trying to take our right away. We are being just as judgmental to Ocers.

How mad do we get when the Brady bunch starts saying things like if you allow them to conceal then there will be more accidental shootings, road rage incidents, and our law enforcement will be in danger?

Yes, all these things COULD happen, but did they? no.

All these things with the possibility of happening while OCing COULD happen, but they dont. There will always be the occasional exception but as a whole they just dont happen.

Honestly, how can you say your Pro 2a but then tell some one they are stupid for the way they carry?

How does this make sense:
" Man if the government ever comes to take my guns im going down in a blaze of glory" but the next post: "man dont open carry someone might see it and cause a fuss, and we dont need that!"

Whether you think its a advantage or disadvantage that's one thing. you have to weigh the pros and cons like with anything.

I just cant believe that with the trouble we are going to facing in the next 4 years, we are still bickering over this stupid crap like 4 year olds.

Whether anyone likes it or not it is a right, just like every right we have, some people express it, some people dont.

:twocents:

TheTrainingTeamCPL

02-09-2009, 12:16 PM

Saying that just because somebody is holding up a bank with a gun means that that person will hurt or kill somebody, is like saying all you OC'ers and CC'ers will do the same just because you carry a gun.

Wow.

So let me get this straight, So the only time your going to use self defense is when the BG tells you that he's going to kill you? Because if he doesn't than you just dont know, he might just want money.?

I can tell you one thing, if a man come in with a gun and starts pointing it at people I am not going to wait for him to start plugging people before I say, wow i guess he's serious.

Now if he comes in with note thats one thing, im not going to risk my life and the people around me for money. But when he brings a gun into the mix that escalates it into a deadly force situation.

ghostrider

02-09-2009, 12:17 PM

OC'ers are painfully aware of the fact that a determined crazy drugged up madman can't be stopped just by him/her seeing a gun.
The problem is that some people think that just because there is a gun hidden in their underwear that they can stop any crime by anyone. And if they have a hidden gun that they can't even get to, they will never be shot, accosted, or in any way bothered by even the most determined criminal.
NO criminal upon seeing an armed person is going to go someplace else to rob, rape & pillage but will immediately start shooting everyone in sight.
OC'ers just can't find any evidence to back up that theory.
OC'ers can't give statistics for how many crimes are prevented because they just didn't happen when an openly carried gun was in the area.
What we can show is that the things CCer's say WILL happen ... don't.
But just because it doesn't happen doesn't mean it CAN'T according to CCer's.
Don’t bring CCer’s into this. The people your referring to are arguing against OC, not just advocating CC. Alternatively, many OC’ers do in fact CC. Many CCer’s do not argue against OC. Do not let them make it a CC v OC argument, because that would be divisive. Do not make it one yourself either. Some people prefer to CC and that should be fine, just as some people prefer to OC, and that should be fine also.

Are you a on duty police officer? I'm not, and nobody should play one either.

Saying that just because somebody is holding up a bank with a gun means that that person will hurt or kill somebody, is like saying all you OC'ers and CC'ers will do the same just because you carry a gun.Nonsense. Carrying a holstered firearm is not even close to the same as brandishing, or threatening lethal force. Someone holding up a bank with a gun is threatening lethal force, and possibly brandishing. There is a big difference between them.

halik008

02-09-2009, 12:19 PM

Wow.

So let me get this straight, So the only time your going to use self defense is when the BG tells you that he's going to kill you? Because if he doesn't than you just dont know, he might just want money.?

I can tell you one thing, if a man come in with a gun and starts pointing it at people I am not going to wait for him to start plugging people before I say, wow i guess he's serious.

Now if he comes in with note thats one thing, im not going to risk my life and the people around me for money. But when he brings a gun into the mix that escalates it into a deadly force situation.

He's not after you, nor your wallet.

halik008

02-09-2009, 12:23 PM

Nonsense. Carrying a holstered firearm is not even close to the same as brandishing, or threatening lethal force. Someone holding up a bank with a gun is threatening lethal force, and possibly brandishing. There is a big difference between them.

True, but neither means somebody will get shot. Especially not you, the customer. You want to escalate the situation by whipping out your gun when you are not trained how to handle the situation? Fine, play a cop. I'll just pray I'm not around.....

Leader

02-09-2009, 12:28 PM

Don’t bring CCer’s into this. The people your referring to are arguing against OC, not just advocating CC. Alternatively, many OC’ers do in fact CC. Many CCer’s do not argue against OC. Do not let them make it a CC v OC argument, because that would be divisive. Do not make it one yourself either. Some people prefer to CC and that should be fine, just as some people prefer to OC, and that should be fine also.
Snip.......

You are absolutely right. It should have been anti OC'ers not CC'ers.
It's just that the ones complaining here happen to be CC'ers form what I see.

halik008

02-09-2009, 12:32 PM

You are absolutely right. It should have been anti OC'ers not CC'ers.
It's just that the ones complaining here happen to be CC'ers form what I see.

Well my argument is not "do not OC in bank" my argument is "OC as you wish, but OC'ing is pointless when the BG is equivalently equipped"

Leader

02-09-2009, 12:33 PM

True, but neither means somebody will get shot. Especially not you, the customer. You want to escalate the situation by whipping out your gun when you are not trained how to handle the situation? Fine, play a cop. I'll just pray I'm not around.....

Does that apply to you when someone grabs your wife on the street in Detroit?
I sure hope I'm not around when you go whipping out a gun not being trained to handle the situation.
When you go playing cop.

Scoop

02-09-2009, 12:33 PM

Saying that just because somebody is holding up a bank with a gun means that that person will hurt or kill somebody, is like saying all you OC'ers and CC'ers will do the same just because you carry a gun.That's a completely bogus argument and comparison.

Someone who obeys the law by obtaining a CPL and carrying a concealed weapon within the requirements of the law is NOT the same as someone committing a violent crime with a firearm.

He's not after you, nor your wallet.Unless you can get inside his head, you have no f*cking idea what he's after. All you can do is guess.

Leader

02-09-2009, 12:37 PM

Well my argument is not "do not OC in bank" my argument is "OC as you wish, but OC'ing is pointless when the BG is equivalently equipped"

Then you don't think anybody should be armed at all??? It's "pointless when the BG is equivalently equipped".

ghostrider

02-09-2009, 12:39 PM

You are absolutely right. It should have been anti OC'ers not CC'ers.
It's just that the ones complaining here happen to be CC'ers form what I see.
Not all who are CC'ers here, are the ones complaining.:poed:

Leader

02-09-2009, 12:41 PM

That's a completely bogus argument and comparison.

Someone who obeys the law by obtaining a CPL and carrying a concealed weapon within the requirements of the law is NOT the same as someone committing a violent crime with a firearm.

Unless you can get inside his head, you have no f*cking idea what he's after. All you can do is guess.

Would that be anything like *Someone who obeys the law by openly carrying a weapon within the requirements of the law is NOT the same as someone committing a violent crime with a firearm. * ????

Scoop

02-09-2009, 12:42 PM

Would that be anything like *Someone who obeys the law by openly carrying a weapon within the requirements of the law is NOT the same as someone committing a violent crime with a firearm. * ????I wasn't trying to differenciate between OC and CC.

I was pointing out that people who obey the law (OC, CC, whatever) are NOT = to those who don't (e.g., armed criminals).

As long as you're not breaking the law, you're free to choose whatever you want. Whether or not that choice is smart is a completely different issue. ;)

halik008

02-09-2009, 12:44 PM

Then you don't think anybody should be armed at all??? It's "pointless when the BG is equivalently equipped".

Difference is in details ;)

A) When OC'ing you have 0 element of surprise.

B) You are automatic target to disarm or else.

C) His gun is already drawn, locked, loaded, and safety off.

So if you are so concerned with BG waltzing in, ya should be CC in the first place.

halik008

02-09-2009, 12:49 PM

That's a completely bogus argument and comparison.

Someone who obeys the law by obtaining a CPL and carrying a concealed weapon within the requirements of the law is NOT the same as someone committing a violent crime with a firearm.

Unless you can get inside his head, you have no f*cking idea what he's after. All you can do is guess.

Is bank robbery really violent? All i'm getting at is just because somebody uses a gun as a means of persuasion during a crime does not mean that they will end up shooting somebody 100% of the time.

Well I'm sure people set on mugging you personally would find a better place, time and situation Then holding up a bank in a broad daylight while on camera just to jack your wallet....

Scoop

02-09-2009, 12:53 PM

Then you don't think anybody should be armed at all??? It's "pointless when the BG is equivalently equipped".Another bad analogy. That's NOT what he's saying.

What he's saying is:

Being armed is one thing.
Being armed and giving away your tactical advantage is another.

halik008

02-09-2009, 12:53 PM

Does that apply to you when someone grabs your wife on the street in Detroit?
I sure hope I'm not around when you go whipping out a gun not being trained to handle the situation.
When you go playing cop.

Well luckily i'm not married and don't hang out in Detroit. But I am aware of my surroundings to not let anybody get close enough to grab me or my loved one. And even still i would not be whipping out my gun by default.

Scoop

02-09-2009, 12:57 PM

Is bank robbery really violent? All i'm getting at is just because somebody uses a gun as a means of persuasion during a crime does not mean that they will end up shooting somebody 100% of the time.Again, unless you have the capability to use your telepathic powers to determine what the BG is thinking, you have NO WAY of determining if he is planning on shooting patrons or not.

As momma always said, plan for the worst, hope for the best.

Well I'm sure people set on mugging you personally would find a better place, time and situation Then holding up a bank in a broad daylight while on camera just to jack your wallet....You're acting as if criminals always think logically and act with everybody's best interests at heart.

Just in case you didn't know, people shoot people all day, every day, and in some cases, for no apparent reason and without any warning.

Scoop

02-09-2009, 01:00 PM

Does that apply to you when someone grabs your wife on the street in Detroit?
I sure hope I'm not around when you go whipping out a gun not being trained to handle the situation.
When you go playing cop.Let me get this straight:

If you're walking down the street, carrying concealed, and some guy grabs your wife, your NOT going to attempt to defend her because you're "not trained" to "handle the situation"?

WTF are you carrying a damn gun for then?

halik008

02-09-2009, 01:00 PM

Again, unless you have the capability to use your telepathic powers to determine what the BG is thinking, you have NO WAY of determining if he is planning on shooting patrons or not.

As momma always said, plan for the worst, hope for the best.

You're acting as if criminals always think logically and act with everybody's best interests at heart.

Just in case you didn't know, people shoot people all day, every day, and in some cases, for no apparent reason and without any warning.

Yes plan for the worst (aka carry a gun) but don't act on it by default (aka start whipping it out and shooting up the place).

Leader

02-09-2009, 01:08 PM

Let me get this straight:

If you're walking down the street, carrying concealed, and some guy grabs your wife, your NOT going to attempt to defend her because you're "not trained" to "handle the situation"?

WTF are you carrying a damn gun for then?

I was questioning halik008's statement about a person actually doing something if involved in a bamk robbery.

I never said or implyed that I agree in any way with anything he is saying.

ghostrider

02-09-2009, 01:18 PM

Are you a on duty police officer? I'm not, and nobody should play one either.

Saying that just because somebody is holding up a bank with a gun means that that person will hurt or kill somebody, is like saying all you OC'ers and CC'ers will do the same just because you carry a gun.

Nonsense. Carrying a holstered firearm is not even close to the same as brandishing, or threatening lethal force. Someone holding up a bank with a gun is threatening lethal force, and possibly brandishing. There is a big difference between them.
True, but neither means somebody will get shot. Especially not you, the customer. You want to escalate the situation by whipping out your gun when you are not trained how to handle the situation? Fine, play a cop. I'll just pray I'm not around.....This is what’s called a backpedal, after being caught in a straw man argument. Not to mention the inflammatory language of ”whipping out your gun…”, and ”Fine, play a cop.” only demonstrates that your appealing to emotion rather than reason.

There is a big difference between threatening/employing lethal force, along with the ability to use it, and having the ability to use lethal force, but not threatening/employing it. One is a threat that places people in harms way, the other is not, and does not. Whether or not that actual threat does in fact result in that injury is irrelevant to the reaction to counter such a threat, because the goal of countering the threat is to prevent such injury.

Furthermore, when someone threatens lethal force, and demonstrates the means and ability to carry out that threat, then, whether or not it ” means somebody will get shot” is completely irrelevant. When a person commits such an act, then, that person has crossed the threshold of having the benefit of the doubt (”doesn‘t mean somebody will get shot“). By doing such an act, that person has intentionally demonstrated the means, ability, and desire to harm others. It matters not (at that point) that others are not harmed. What matters is stopping that particular threat.

Comparing one with the other is just argumentative, and bogus.

Tallbear

02-09-2009, 01:19 PM

In looking at the bank robberies in the news, for the last couple of years anyway, the BG walks up to a teller and gives them some kind of note. Don't remember any that start out like a "Bonnie and Clyde" bust through the door and announce a robbery with "Tommy guns" in hand.

I'll bet most everybody in the bank when it goes down know nothing about it even happening until the bad guy's gone. So, having my firearm( whether OC or CC) would have no effect on the robber.

dougwg

02-09-2009, 01:21 PM

ghostrider,

Life is better with halik008 on your ignore list.

ghostrider

02-09-2009, 01:22 PM

Another bad analogy. That's NOT what he's saying.

What he's saying is:

Being armed is one thing.
Being armed and giving away your tactical advantage is another.
Yes, but he is using bogus arguments to say so (comparing the lawful carrying of a holstered handgun, too the unlawful use of a handgun by using lethal force to coerce others in the commission of a crime).

dougwg

02-09-2009, 01:23 PM

Tallbear

02-09-2009, 01:25 PM

Fixed

Don't change what I say. If I thought it needed fixing, I'd do it myself.

lead

02-09-2009, 01:27 PM

Yes, but he is using bogus arguments to say so (comparing the lawful carrying of a holstered handgun, too the unlawful use of a handgun by using lethal force to coerce others in the commission of a crime).

Which is why I don't even bother replying to any of those anymore..

I love the "augument" about being "qualified" to handle a situation or "are you a cop?"..

With that mentality.. it won't belong before the only people "allowed" to own a firearm will be law "enforcement"..

And that's coming from people who are "supposedly" 2a supporters..

Way to "support" your rights hey?..

ghostrider

02-09-2009, 01:27 PM

ghostrider,

Life is better with halik008 on your ignore list.I don't know. There is some entertainment value. It's like reading a BB'er.

ghostrider

02-09-2009, 01:29 PM

Which is why I don't even bother replying to any of those anymore..

I love the "augument" about being "qualified" to handle a situation or "are you a cop?"..

With that mentality.. it won't belong before the only people "allowed" to own a firearm will be law "enforcement"..

And that's coming from people who are "supposedly" 2a supporters..

Way to "support" your rights hey?..
Yup.

halik008

02-09-2009, 01:29 PM

Yes, but he is using bogus arguments to say so (comparing the lawful carrying of a holstered handgun, too the unlawful use of a handgun by using lethal force to coerce others in the commission of a crime).

I'm using the anti's silly argument to compare it to what you guys are trying to say which is that just because BG has a gun while robbing a bank means that they are guaranteed to use is so you have to whip out your gun and assume the profession of a police officer.

Both arguments are flawed because neither guarantees somebody will get shot.

FYI it's pointless to try to turn this into an argument of semantics and how somebody words something.

With your guys' mentality I also hope you are chasing down people that speed, run red lights and stop signs and give them citizen tickets... ( more people and by standers die because of things i just mentioned every year then they ever did during a bank hold ups)

Scoop

02-09-2009, 01:37 PM

Yes plan for the worst (aka carry a gun) but don't act on it by default (aka start whipping it out and shooting up the place)."Hope" and "Change" might have gotten your savior elected, but it sure as hell isn't going to stop someone from gunning you down if he so chooses to do it and your idea of protecting yourself is to wait until the barrel is aimed in your direction and the trigger has begun it's movement back ...

dougwg

02-09-2009, 01:37 PM

Don't change what I say. If I thought it needed fixing, I'd do it myself.

Yeah, ok.

halik008

02-09-2009, 01:40 PM

"Hope" and "Change" might have gotten your savior elected, but it sure as hell isn't going to stop someone from gunning you down if he so chooses to do it and your idea of protecting yourself is to wait until the barrel is aimed in your direction and the trigger has begun it's movement back ...

Oh yeah i forgot that Joe nobody depositing his $100 check is the primary target of any bank robbery.

Scoop

02-09-2009, 01:41 PM

Don't change what I say. If I thought it needed fixing, I'd do it myself.Claiming that "... having my firearm( whether OC or CC) would have no effect on the robber ..." is bogus.

Always, yes, never, no ... there are exceptions to EVERY rule ... :)

Scoop

02-09-2009, 01:43 PM

Oh yeah i forgot that Joe nobody depositing his $100 check is the primary target of any bank robbery.How/why is this relevant?

Beyond that, I'd be willing to bet that tens (or even hundreds) of people are robbed, many at gunpoint, at ATM machines every day ...

Done Deal

02-09-2009, 01:43 PM

I can tell you one thing, if a man come in with a gun and starts pointing it at people I am not going to wait for him to start plugging people before I say, wow i guess he's serious.

Now if he comes in with note thats one thing, im not going to risk my life and the people around me for money. But when he brings a gun into the mix that escalates it into a deadly force situation.

"a man" and just how is it that you know for sure that the only BG is the one you see?

Secondly, and perhaps even more importantly....the situation is, an armed robbery. When you or anybody else whips out a gun....then it is probably going to escalate.

Even LE is trained to be a good witness in an off duty scenario such as this. What would possess any CPL holder to want to engage one or more armed adversaries and in doing so, quite possibly create more risk than by merely being a good witness? Wow indeed.....

Done Deal

02-09-2009, 01:46 PM

I love the "augument" about being "qualified" to handle a situation or "are you a cop?"..

With that mentality.. it won't belong before the only people "allowed" to own a firearm will be law "enforcement"..

And that's coming from people who are "supposedly" 2a supporters..

Way to "support" your rights hey?..

Any idiot can vote too and from the looks of it, alot of them did. Look where that got us....:yikes:

If you think that you are equipped to handle a bank RA....why don't you tell us how you gained all this so called tactical prowess? It sounds to me like you have been watching too many Steven Segal movies and believe that you can pull of a stunt as well as he can....

halik008

02-09-2009, 01:50 PM

How/why is this relevant?

Beyond that, I'd be willing to bet that tens (or even hundreds) of people are robbed, many at gunpoint, at ATM machines every day ...

you said the following:

but it sure as hell isn't going to stop someone from gunning you down if he so chooses to do it and your idea of protecting yourself is to wait until the barrel is aimed in your direction and the trigger has begun it's movement back ...

how is that going exactly happen in a bank robbery where i'm just a customer doing nothing to mess with their plans?

Beyond that, I'd be willing to bet that tens (or even hundreds) of people are robbed, many at gunpoint, at ATM machines every day ...

You are describing totally different act for one.

Done Deal

02-09-2009, 01:58 PM

Geez folks....first banks, then homes, party stores and ATM's

If we are going to debate the wisdom of a CPL holder interferring in a hold up at a bank....lets try and limit it to just that topic ok?

lead

02-09-2009, 02:03 PM

"a man" and just how is it that you know for sure that the only BG is the one you see?

Secondly, and perhaps even more importantly....the situation is, an armed robbery. When you or anybody else whips out a gun....then it is probably going to escalate.

Even LE is trained to be a good witness in an off duty scenario such as this. What would possess any CPL holder to want to engage one or more armed adversaries and in doing so, quite possibly create more risk than by merely being a good witness? Wow indeed.....

Then with your mindset.. no one should need a gun thenCC/OC or otherwise.. wouldn't want someone defending themselves or others that may "escalate" the situation..

And as far as my "qualifications and training".. what I have been trained for and done is irrelavent.. Personally attacks are a sure sign that your "argument" holds no water..

ghostrider

02-09-2009, 04:30 PM

I'm using the anti's silly argument … We know, and it is just as flawed when you use it. …to compare it to what you guys are trying to say which is that just because BG has a gun while robbing a bank means that they are guaranteed to use is … The BG is already “using it”, so yes, it’s guaranteed. Whether or not he intends to shoot someone with it is irrelevant. What matters is that he chose to employ lethal force by using it as a tool of coercion. so you have to whip out your gun and assume the profession of a police officer. If lethal force (BG using a gun for any unlawful threats or coercion) is employed, then use of lethal force to stop that threat is justified. (This has nothing to do with OC in a bank, but more to do with justifiable self-defense).

Both arguments are flawed because neither guarantees somebody will get shot. No, what's flawed is your representation of the arguments. Guarantee of death is not a requirement for justifiable self-defense, nor should it be.

FYI it's pointless to try to turn this into an argument of semantics and how somebody words something. Not realy, your using inflammatory wordage only demonstrates that your argument lacks. It's little different in effect to attacking the person as opposed to attacking the argument.

With your guys' mentality I also hope you are chasing down people that speed, run red lights and stop signs and give them citizen tickets... ( more people and by standers die because of things i just mentioned every year then they ever did during a bank hold ups) More straw man nonsense.

ghostrider

02-09-2009, 04:31 PM

Geez folks....first banks, then homes, party stores and ATM's

If we are going to debate the wisdom of a CPL holder interferring in a hold up at a bank....lets try and limit it to just that topic ok?
+1

And, that isn't even on topic. They were just brought in as straw arguments against OC in a bank.

Done Deal

02-09-2009, 04:40 PM

Then with your mindset.. no one should need a gun thenCC/OC or otherwise.. wouldn't want someone defending themselves or others that may "escalate" the situation..

For starters, you don't seem to get my mindset. How can anyone condone every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a CPL and the John Wayne Syndrome to take on any and all comers in armed bank robbery.
And as far as my "qualifications and training".. what I have been trained for and done is irrelavent.. Personally attacks are a sure sign that your "argument" holds no water..

Well Mr Segal, I beg to differ with you. What exactly makes you think that you are competent to make determinations regarding the life and safety of every person in that bank? I know this, I sure wouldn't want some cowboy risking the lives of my loved ones. So, your training is indeed relevant. Why do you think that they teach off duty cops to be good witnesses?

And, talking about sure signs....geez, if you can't handle your expertise being called into question on the internet....you better leave that pistola holstered should you ever encounter a RA while banking.

Frankly, I cannot believe that CPL holders would be so willing to jeopardize so much by going up against an unknown number of armed assailants. The media would love it I am sure....no matter how it plays out.

Done Deal

02-09-2009, 04:44 PM

+1

And, that isn't even on topic. They were just brought in as straw arguments against OC in a bank.

I gotta agree and....don't have the time or inclination to split off the posts that deal with dueling gunmen rather then the method of carry.

Besides, I would rather discuss the wisdom of a bank confrontation.:winker:

Scoop

02-09-2009, 05:57 PM

how is that going exactly happen in a bank robbery where i'm just a customer doing nothing to mess with their plans?So, if you're a customer, and the bank is getting robbed, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that you will get shot by the BG's??

Done Deal

02-09-2009, 06:03 PM

So, if you're a customer, and the bank is getting robbed, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that you will get shot by the BG's??

He can't possibly know that...

And, while it appears that part of his message might have gotten lost in the shuffle....you have to admit that his odds of going home in one piece should increase if he is not a target and, better yet, if no shots are fired at all.

The fact remains, in an armed robbery---if John Q CPL holder pulls a gun, odds are, he will become a target.

I would rather avoid having a bulleye on my chest, wouldn't you?

Scoop

02-09-2009, 06:11 PM

I would rather avoid having a bulleye on my chest, wouldn't you?Yes.

But it sure is fun screwing with him .... ;)

lead

02-09-2009, 06:17 PM

He can't possibly know that...

And, while it appears that part of his message might have gotten lost in the shuffle....you have to admit that his odds of going home in one piece should increase if he is not a target and, better yet, if no shots are fired at all.

The fact remains, in an armed robbery---if John Q CPL holder pulls a gun, odds are, he will become a target.

I would rather avoid having a bulleye on my chest, wouldn't you?

So why would you even carry a firearm?..You sound to me more anti-2a

BTW.. thanks for letting me see why NOT to join MGO...

halik008

02-09-2009, 06:25 PM

So why would you even carry a firearm?..You sound to me more anti-2a

BTW.. thanks for letting me see why NOT to join MGO...

it's pretty ignorant to say you will not join an organization just because you can't bare a different thought then your own. What is really the point of being a member of a forum then if you can tolerate diversity of opinions? Might as well just talk to yourself in a mirror.....

Kimberguy1371

02-09-2009, 07:43 PM

it's pretty ignorant to say you will not join an organization just because you can't bare a different thought then your own. What is really the point of being a member of a forum then if you can tolerate diversity of opinions? Might as well just talk to yourself in a mirror.....

I agree, I definatly do not agree with everyone here, but I would die to protect the rights of any of them.... plus, how else will you convince them too all think like you? I know that is my plan, then we will all OC in banks...

I want to thank every one for making ym thread very enjoyable to read :clap: even if it has taken a turn that i really should have seen comming.

JEMSCS

02-10-2009, 01:22 AM

Although I don't think I would open carry in bank, if only for the comfort of the people behind the counter. I do agree I have the right to, and believe a right not flexed is a right lost... but for these sheepish suburbanites making $7.50 an hour, the sight of a gun is their worst occupational nightmare. I fully promote anyone to carry.. open or concealed where you do so is your choice.

Anyway I have to tell you folks, flex those rights... flex them often. The wolf is knocking at the door, and we have to let the wolf know how many voting sheep dogs there are! Flood the congressional offices with letters, emails and calls. They are feeling pretty good right now, the last thing we need is confident lefty legislators pumping out stupid laws.:flamethr:

zigziggityzoo

02-10-2009, 08:49 AM

Done Deal

02-10-2009, 09:25 AM

So why would you even carry a firearm?..You sound to me more anti-2a

BTW.. thanks for letting me see why NOT to join MGO...

I carry a firearm for personal protection---NOT to try and play hero if it can be avoided and certainly not to be a wannabe cop.

To say that I sound anti-2a is hilarious. Will you please show me in the Second Amendment where you have the right to engage in tactically foolish shoot outs in crowded buildings because you want to play cowboy?

I am not against possession or use of firearms. Doing foolish things with them is another matter. Do you not see the difference?

And, for you to use my position on this to threaten to not support this organization because I personally do not support stupidity.....well.....you can probably surmise what I think of that too....:shake:

Scoop

02-10-2009, 10:06 AM

So why would you even carry a firearm?..You sound to me more anti-2aDone Deal isn't anti-gun. He's just anti-stupidity.

BTW.. thanks for letting me see why NOT to join MGO...People who play the "such-and-such has caused me not to support MGO financially" are full of crap. They never intend to support MGO to begin with, and are just making excuses to cover their ass.

If you believe in a cause - ANY cause - you don't abandon your support, simply because you don't get along with one of the cause's other supporters.