Open carry awareness

[kicker42]

Below is a copy of a letter I sent to GOA and NRA. I am just wondering if we can get some advertising on TV to make people aware of open carry in MI. The only way that we can do it with out being a target is if it is a common practice that is well known I would appreciate any comment thoughts Ideas that you have. A GOA Rep has responded and he said he will forward my letter to a supervisor.

I am a GOA and a NRA member. I recently found out that Michigan is a open carry state. I was surprised to say the least. I called and talked with my local police department and after acting like they had know Idea what I was talking about ,they finely admitted that it is legal to open carry in Michigan , and they know about it but do not agree with the law.

The chief told me that if he saw me carrying open, or was called because someone saw me with a open gun on my side, he would approach me with his gun drawn and pointed at my head, then he would lay me out face down on the ground and check out who I am. Also he told me if I moved the wrong way he would shoot me. Then he would let me go. Here is a what a resident of Howell MI wrote in a Thread on Great lakes 4x4:
“ Yup, I carry on my property.. and have had the sherriff (deputy) stop and talk to me (he was just driving by).. was told that there was nothing he could do about it (after he checked me out).. but he asked if I would conceal it so as not to scare people.. he would make some type of issue appear if he had to come out (on a call) on it.”

My Police chief tried to compare it to the sodomy laws still on the books, or the adultery laws, saying “you don't agree with them do you"? I was not going to argue but comparing cheating on your spouse to the “Michigan Constitution Article I, Section 6 Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state" and the right to open carry is a fallacy of logic.

The police take a oath to defend the constitution of Michigan. The police rely on the Michigan constitutional laws to arrest, detain, and imprison people. The same Constitution that gives them those powers gives me the power to carry a firearm out in the open.

I would prefer to carry concealed for the element of surprise, but If I want to carry open I should not have to worry about being shot at the park by a police officer ,that was told too treat me like a dangerous criminal and things got out of control. If I was planning on using a firearm for a crime I would not have it on my hip in plane site. I would have it concealed.

The chief also stated the police are trying to get the constitution of Michigan amended to get rid of the right. It seems that they will do everything in there power to stop you from doing it that includes totally embarrassing you in public . I do see there point, open carry is not common in Michigan like say Texas or Arizona, so it could cause confusion if people started carrying open.

There is a group here in Michigan that is working to raise awareness but they are on the S**T list of Michigan police, there website is opencarry DOT org. I was wondering if you could help raise awareness to make it common knowledge that MI is a open carry state effectively stopping law enforcement form getting this “unused law” removed. I think this is an easy campaign for you to make real change here in MI. I was hoping you could help with awareness. I am not big enough to stand up to the police and be branded a trouble maker. Although I don't feel a need to carry open it is a right that I and everyone in MI has that needs to be brought out in the open to protect the rights and safety of MI gun owners.

[edge]

:yeahthat:

[OpenSights]

I Agree!

[ghostrider]

Go over to ocdo's Michigan section and start reading. There's much that you seem to think you know, that is more just, what you think.

Barring that, if you don't feel comfortable open carrying, then don't do it. If you aren't comfortable, confident, and knowledgeable about the law and your rights, as well as how to properly assert them, then your better of not doing so. We each have to make our own decisions on how we live.

That group that Michigan police supposedly hate, is standing up for all of our rights, while putting theirs on the line.


BTW:
OC is not legal in Texas.


ETA:
It's my belief that raising awareness through television adds will only make people aware that it's legal. People tend to fear things they don't understand. I believe that the more the citizens of this state observe fellow citizens OC'ing in a lawful and respectful manner, the less sensitized they will be to OC. Some OC'ers have even been commended by officers for "being one of the good guys".

[dougwg]

I guess we need to add Howell to our list of events and invite the Chief to attend so that we might have some dialog with him about legal, law abiding firearm owners.

[ghostrider]

Also, I must say that I've just spent about 45 minutes reading some of the comments on that forum. They are not the brightest bulbs in the box. That isn't all of them, but some of them are ignorant, and others are just downright stupid. That isn't a representation of all of them, but some of the comments... Yeesh.

[Kimberguy1371]

Welcome to MGO kicker! I like the way you think. I was supprised some time ago when I found out about MI OC, and was even more shocked when I found out that Texas is not... OCDO is working on that as well. E-mail me we can share ideas, I like where you are going with GOA and the NRA...I'm on my phone rite now but where are you located. Thabk you for your support and patriotisim!
Live free or die!

[_DK_]

You could do a billboard campaign like ABATE does for motorcycle awareness in May, but I doubt the funds are there for it yet. Those things are expensive. But probably cheaper than TV.

[zigziggityzoo]

I should note that Open Carry is in fact ILLEGAL in Texas.

edit: looks like I wasn't the first to say that... oh well.

[nikon1123]

Hmm, I have to visit Fenton some time next week. Looks like a stop in Howell for a little lunch may be in order.

[dougwg]

Hmm, I have to visit Fenton some time next week. Looks like a stop in Howell for a little lunch may be in order.

What does this mean?

Are you wanting to go there to be threatened by the officers or the Chief?

Or are you going to invite the Chief out to lunch to try to convince him OC is legal and show him the error of his ways?

[kicker42]

Wow great reply's thanks. I,m sorry about the Texas thing I don't know why I thought it was legal there. I know it is in AZ I have family there.

I live in Argentine the chief of police here came from flint.

I know Opencarry is fighting for my rights and I appreciate it, but there still on the shit list.

I would feel a bit uncomfortable carrying openly not because of lack of self confidence, just because it is so unknown here in MI, and I don't want to get my cloths all wet in the parking lot laying face down. T

A few guys getting together to bring awareness is great. But if they are treated like a group saying you don't have to pay taxes its not vary efficient IMHO .

I think that one of the organizations, of if I can work on it, two or three organizations could pool resources to advertise. Don't quote me on this but I believe that local TV stations and or radio have to provide some time for PSA on local issues. Or maybe give some sort of discount. I think that this is a gun right issue and a public safety issue as well.

Look the reality is law enforcement wants this gone most people in MI have no clue about it. A judge is not going to punish a police officer for laying you out to protect his safety. If the public is made aware and it is common Knowledge like the CPL is then the police will have to be a bit more tactful in dealing with it. I have been stopped while CCW I told the officer that I am a CLP holder and am carrying, he did not pull me out of the car at gunpoint and lay me out.

So what is the difference between the Conceal and open carry? Open carry has been around forever, it cost nothing and you don't have to renew it.

Does it get respect because you pay? Or because it is a well know law. I don't now.
To me I am no more of a danger to society whether my gun is visible or not, whether I have one on me or not.

[Venator12]

GOA is already on board with open carry and MOC. Go here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html and read about open carry. Down the page a bit is a letter from GOA expressing their support.


The NRA also supports open carry. Below is an email from them.

Sent from ILAContact@nrahq.org

"Dear Mr. XXXX,

Thanks for contacting NRA-ILA. NRA supports Open-Carry and currently pursues Open-Carry legislation on a state level. NRA endorses Open-Carry in the state of Texas.

Please let us know if you have further questions or concerns.

Sincerely,
Krista Cupp
NRA-ILA Grassroots Division"


If MOC is truly on the Michigan police (not sure what Michigan police means) list then we must be doing something right. Education is not always easy.

[who dat]

What does this mean?

Are you wanting to go there to be threatened by the officers or the Chief?

Or are you going to invite the Chief out to lunch to try to convince him OC is legal and show him the error of his ways?
Perhaps if you just sent him a synopsis of the Grand Haven case, he may open his eyes.

What's the latest there?

[kicker42]

GOA is already on board with open carry and MOC. Go here and read about open carry. Down the page a bit is a letter from GOA expressing their support.


The NRA also supports open carry. Below is an email from them.

Sent from ILAContact@nrahq.org

"Dear Mr. XXXX,

Thanks for contacting NRA-ILA. NRA supports Open-Carry and currently pursues Open-Carry legislation on a state level. NRA endorses Open-Carry in the state of Texas.

Please let us know if you have further questions or concerns.

Sincerely,
Krista Cupp
NRA-ILA Grassroots Division"


If MOC is truly on the Michigan police (not sure what Michigan police means) list then we must be doing something right. Education is not always easy.
Thank you for the note.

Here is what I got back from GOA

I have forwarded your comments and request to my supervisor.

Virginia has had an open carry law for almost forever but the police
were doing similar here, disorderly conduct, disturbing the peace
charges, etc., but after several losses in court and 1000s of dollars in
judgments, the police have finally changed their tune and have decided
to obey the law.

If what you say is true about open carry in Michigan then there are a
couple of attorneys in Michigan that we feel comfortable in recommending
in gun-rights cases. So if you should ever need one let us know.

Police violating the law is a serious matter that the courts frown upon
-- at least here in Virginia.

Robert E. Duggar
Public Liaison

I,m just taking a bit of my time to see if I can do something to contribute to the cause I think if everyone did a little it would make a BIG difference.

The chief was asking me for my name. Later in the hour long conversation we ended up having, he told me someone is pushing this issue and I thought you might be that person thats why I wanted your name. He did not mention Opencarry specifically I made that conclusion myself.
But he did say the all the police chiefs are working to get this law off the books, and that they have talked with the Governor about this issue. So I may have drawn a incorrect conclusion saying the "police in MI" have them on a list.

[Venator12]

Thank you for the note.

Here is what I got back from GOA

I have forwarded your comments and request to my supervisor.

Virginia has had an open carry law for almost forever but the police
were doing similar here, disorderly conduct, disturbing the peace
charges, etc., but after several losses in court and 1000s of dollars in
judgments, the police have finally changed their tune and have decided
to obey the law.

If what you say is true about open carry in Michigan then there are a
couple of attorneys in Michigan that we feel comfortable in recommending
in gun-rights cases. So if you should ever need one let us know.

Police violating the law is a serious matter that the courts frown upon
-- at least here in Virginia.

Robert E. Duggar
Public Liaison

I,m just taking a bit of my time to see if I can do something to contribute to the cause I think if everyone did a little it would make a BIG difference.

The chief was asking me for my name. Later in the hour long conversation we ended up having, he told me someone is pushing this issue and I thought you might be that person thats why I wanted your name. He did not mention Opencarry specifically I made that conclusion myself.
But he did say the all the police chiefs are working to get this law off the books, and that they have talked with the Governor about this issue. So I may have drawn a incorrect conclusion saying the "police in MI" have them on a list.

Tell the Chief that it's not just one person pushing the issue but hundreds.

I doubt all the police Chiefs are pushing this. Many agree with open carry, mine Chief included. MOC's ears haven't heard about any issue with the Governor and getting OC outlawed. In fact four states are fighting to get it legal again. The momentum is going towards OC not against it. either we are free or we are not.

[kicker42]

Im sure the chief had an agenda when we were talking so I cant validate anything he said. I will do what I can to further the right to carry open. Thanks for the reply's and thanks for the website

[ghostrider]

Im sure the chief had an agenda when we were talking so I cant validate anything he said. I will do what I can to further the right to carry open. Thanks for the reply's and thanks for the website
First, Thanks for your efforts. It's good that your willing to do something for the exercise of a right that you don't even care to practice. That says a lot about you as an individual.

Second, I think it sounds like the chief was trying to intimidate you. Also, I really see no benefit of talking to the chief (or other officers) about such things when they are so obviously hostile. Every time I think about saying something like, "you should ask him ...this.", I then get a moment of clarity and realize that it really doesn't matter in the long run what he has to say.

Example:

If he says that, "he will draw down on you and slam your fact in the snow for the sloe act of OC", then he has just admitted to his intent to actually violate your rights as a citizen of the US, and this state. Furthermore, even though he is saying that, it's more likely that he won't do it, and is just trying to intimidate you.

Really (and again I'm talking about a LEO hostile to OC) what difference does it make what they say or do as long as you know your rights, and how to properly conduct yourself during any potential encounter. I'm guessing nadda.

[nikon1123]

:yeahthat:

I'll go there, I'll open carry, and just like always, nothing big will happen.

[Roger Roney]

......But he did say the all the police chiefs are working to get this law off the books,.....There is no law on the books.

Roger

[hud]

As Roger states above, there is no law on the books. And since CPL is a privilege, not a right, and the Michigan Constitution declares our RIGHT to firearms in Article I, it would take an unconstitutional new law to declare open carry as illegal......because it would place the entire RIGHT (open as well as CCW) as a privilege. The Michigan State police know that open carry is legal, and spell it out on their web site.

[dougwg]

There is no law on the books.

Roger

Hehe

Chief's are so cute sometimes, ya just want to squeeze their cheeks and pat them on the head.

[kicker42]

Well I ll will keep an eye out for a get together with you guys. Thanks for the info.