open carry question

[Tallbear]

When an officer approaches you about your "open carry" firearm and you have a CPL, do you declare that you have a CPL to him or wait for him to ask?

[edge]

don't know about legalities but i would think common sense would say to tell the LEO right away...might just makes things move a little quicker and easier

[halik008]

"I'm sure you are aware that OC is legal here in MI officer, additionally if you let me reach into my wallet I can show you I'm even licensed to carry concealed"?

[ghostrider]

CPL has nothing to do with open carry, therefore there is no need to disclose it. It shouldn't even be a factor however, if an individual wishes to disclose, then it is a personal decision.

[edge]

but proving to the LEO that you have a CPL may just persuade him that you are capable of safely carrying a firearm, and he/she may give you less of a hassle

[dougwg]

It sems as though Tallbear wants to know how someone might act in this situation and I'm more then willing to give him some insight if other can refrain from mudding up the thread , just for a little while, while I try to answer him.

When an officer approaches you about your "open carry" firearm and you have a CPL, do you declare that you have a CPL to him or what for him to ask?

I'll try my hand at answering.

Preamble:
I have a CPL
I'm walking down the sidewalk.
I have my J frame in holster OWB.
LEO driving down the road, sees me and stops.

Now I'm not going to approach him as HE is making contact.
Question: In what manner does he initiate contact?
~(rolls down the window and says "Excuse me, come here so I can talk to you?)
OR
~(jumps out of his car and starts yelling orders?)

[esq_stu]

CPL has nothing to do with open carry, therefore there is no need to disclose it. It shouldn't even be a factor however, if an individual wishes to disclose, then it is a personal decision.I'm gonna disagree with you there, ghostrider. There are places off limits to open carry unless you have a cpl.

[ghostrider]

I'm gonna disagree with you there, ghostrider. There are places off limits to open carry unless you have a cpl.
My mistake.

You are correct. If your carrying under your CPL, then you are under CPL rules. So in those instances, you would be required to inform.

I was thinking of the OP's question of when they weren't carrying under the CPL. My mistake.

[Tallbear]

Casual contact.........not assertive, asking "why" you're carrying openly.

And remembering the fact that you have a CPL.


It sems as though Tallbear wants to know how someone might act in this situation and I'm more then willing to give him some insight if other can refrain from mudding up the thread , just for a little while, while I try to answer him.



I'll try my hand at answering.

Preamble:
I have a CPL
I'm walking down the sidewalk.
I have my J frame in holster OWB.
LEO driving down the road, sees me and stops.

Now I'm not going to approach him as HE is making contact.
Question: In what manner does he initiate contact?
~(rolls down the window and says "Excuse me, come here so I can talk to you?)
OR
~(jumps out of his car and starts yelling orders?)

[dougwg]

Casual contact.........not assertive, asking "why" you're carrying openly.

And remembering the fact that you have a CPL.

Of the 2 examples I gave, the first I would consider casual so I will address that one.

~(rolls down the window and says "Excuse me, come here so I can talk to you?)

My response would be "Hello officer, can I help you."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It might be easier if you and I engage in a bit or "roll playing". You could act as the LEO and I can be the OC'er. Would you like to try it?

[who dat]

Casual contact.........not assertive, asking "why" you're carrying openly.

And remembering the fact that you have a CPL.
How about "Am I being detained?" If he says yes and can explain why, maybe say, "I have a CPL, and as you can see I am carrying."

If he says you are not being detained, or stopped, then leave.

[Tallbear]

Question was not "how would you respond". The question was "do you declare that you have a CPL to him or wait for him to ask?"

When an officer approaches you about your "open carry" firearm and you have a CPL, do you declare that you have a CPL to him or wait for him to ask?


Of the 2 examples I gave, the first I would consider casual so I will address that one.

~(rolls down the window and says "Excuse me, come here so I can talk to you?)

My response would be "Hello officer, can I help you."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It might be easier if you and I engage in a bit or "roll playing". You could act as the LEO and I can be the OC'er. Would you like to try it?

[Joeywhat]

Well, without looking up the laws, do they say that you must disclose you are a CPL holder if you are carrying, or if you are concealed carrying?

Might be easier to just not have your CPL on your person when OCing. assuming of course you don't need it for traveling purposes.

[dougwg]

Question was not "how would you respond". The question was "do you declare that you have a CPL to him or wait for him to ask?"

Answer: If I'm only OC'ing I would not immediately disclose.

[who dat]

Answer: If I'm only OC'ing I would not immediately disclose.
And I would say if I was being detained I would declare I had a CPL. If it was a casual encounter initiated by the LEO, I would not disclose my CPL.

[mechredd]

And I would say if I was being detained I would declare I had a CPL. If it was a casual encounter initiated by the LEO, I would not disclose my CPL.
+1

[dougwg]

I think it's safe to assume that Mike is trying to see how an OC'er would react in a given situation by asking some general questions but without an in depth long drawn out question there are far to many of possibilities to give an actual fact based answer.

[ghostrider]

Well, without looking up the laws, do they say that you must disclose you are a CPL holder if you are carrying, or if you are concealed carrying?

Might be easier to just not have your CPL on your person when OCing. assuming of course you don't need it for traveling purposes.
It is a requirement of the CPL to disclose. If you are not carrying under the CPL then there is no requirement to disclose. It's like when you are walking down the sidewalk, and an officer asks for your ID. Since your not driving, you are not required to provide it. How well that goes over with the individual officer is between you and him.

For just OC (not under the CPL), there is no ruquirement to disclose you are carrying, or provide CPL.

Section 28.425f

FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
Act 372 of 1927


28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
Sec. 5f.
(1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
(4) An individual who violates subsection (1) or (2) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00.
(5) An individual who violates subsection (3) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined as follows:
(a) For a first offense, by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended for 6 months, or both.
(b) For a subsequent offense within 3 years of a prior offense, by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 and by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being revoked.
(6) If an individual is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this section, the court shall notify the department of state police and the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.
(7) A pistol carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a pistol under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:
(a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.
(b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.
(8) As used in this section, "peace officer" includes a motor carrier officer appointed under section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d, and security personnel employed by the state under section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(hnadyoaafpyar055f5iw4jam))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-28-425f

Like I said, the CPL has nothing to do with OC (unless in the prohibited zones listed in MCL 750.234d), so there is no requirement to even have it on you when OC'ing, much less disclose you have one, or are carrying.

[dougwg]

It really is too bad that he didn't want to do some roll playing as I was going to imagine him as a hot little red head officer with a big gun.:naughty:



:laughing:

[who dat]

It really is too bad that he didn't want to do some roll playing as I was going to imagine him as a hot little red head officer with a big gun.:naughty:



:laughing:Female I hope.

[halik008]

Female I hope.

i wouldn't be so sure. :)

[Venator12]

When an officer approaches you about your "open carry" firearm and you have a CPL, do you declare that you have a CPL to him or wait for him to ask?

When I OCed in the Capital and the capital police asked if I had A CPL I told him you don't need a license to OC. He said he knew that. I refused to give him any ID and I was not arrested or detained. It was later disclosed I had a CPL and he didn't cite me for failure to disclose, since...well....he knew I was carrying.

Don't know if that helps, but you don't have to have any ID to OC. As I've said before I have OCed without any ID on me.

[Done Deal]

As I've said before I have OCed without any ID on me.

Some folks don't like to walk everywhere they go just to make a point.

[zigziggityzoo]

Some folks don't like to walk everywhere they go just to make a point.

Well, you could ride a bike... :-D

[Venator12]

Well, you could ride a bike... :-D
Or roller blades, or skateboard, or scooter (the push kind), etc.....

[hunt-n-fool]

so if you were OC and hunting with a handgun, and were stopped by a CO, and have a CPL, should you disclose the CPL ?

I often wonder that one.

[who dat]

so if you were OC and hunting with a handgun, and were stopped by a CO, and have a CPL, should you disclose the CPL ?

I often wonder that one.
Not if you are not CC.

[Venator12]

so if you were OC and hunting with a handgun, and were stopped by a CO, and have a CPL, should you disclose the CPL ?

I often wonder that one.

Should you or do you mean have to? You don't have to provide any ID for OCing unless carrying afield under the provisions of a CPL. Attempting to take game you would need a hunting license. IF you have a CPL you can carry afield without a hunting license, as long as you do not attempt to take game.
Hunting guide page 11 addresses this.

http://www.midnr.com/publications/pdfs/wildlife/DNR_2008HTG.pdf

NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 451 of 1994


324.504 Department of natural resources; rules for protection of lands and property; certain rules prohibited; orders; violation as civil infraction; fine.
Sec. 504.
(1) The department shall promulgate rules for the protection of the lands and property under its control against wrongful use or occupancy as will ensure the carrying out of the intent of this part to protect the lands and property from depredations and to preserve the lands and property from molestation, spoilation, destruction, or any other improper use or occupancy.
(2) This section does not allow the department to promulgate a rule that applies to commercial fishing except as otherwise provided by law.
(3) The department shall not promulgate or enforce a rule that prohibits an individual who is licensed or exempt from licensure under 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435, from carrying a pistol in compliance with that act, whether concealed or otherwise, on property under the control of the department.
(4) The department shall issue orders necessary to implement rules promulgated under this section. These orders shall be effective upon posting.
(5) A person who violates a rule promulgated under this section or an order issued under this section is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be ordered to pay a civil fine of not more than $500.00.

History: 1994, Act 451, Eff. Mar. 30, 1995 ;-- Am. 1996, Act 171, Imd. Eff. Apr. 18, 1996 ;-- Am. 2004, Act 130, Imd. Eff. June 3, 2004
Popular Name: Act 451
Popular Name: NREPA
Admin Rule: R 299.291a et seq. and R 299.921 et seq. of the Michigan Administrative Code.

[Done Deal]

You don't have to provide any ID for OCing.

Attempting to take game you would need a hunting license.

IF you have a CPL you can carry afield without a hunting license, as long as you do not attempt to take game.



Your first statement is misleading as it is not totally accurate.

If you are carrying with a hunting license, you need the ID that you purchased it with.

If you are OC'ing afield under a CPL, then you will need to be able to verify that you have that CPL which means, producing identification.

Your advice could get somebody in a mess of trouble if they are out and about in an area frequented by wild game....

[dougwg]

Your first statement is misleading as it is not totally accurate.

If you are carrying with a hunting license, you need the ID that you purchased it with.

If you are OC'ing afield under a CPL, then you will need to be able to verify that you have that CPL which means, producing identification.

Your advice could get somebody in a mess of trouble if they are out and about in an area frequented by wild game....

But he has a disclaimer in his sig so no matter what he posts, he's covered just like you. Right?

[Venator12]

Your first statement is misleading as it is not totally accurate.

If you are carrying with a hunting license, you need the ID that you purchased it with.

If you are OC'ing afield under a CPL, then you will need to be able to verify that you have that CPL which means, producing identification.

Your advice could get somebody in a mess of trouble if they are out and about in an area frequented by wild game....

Good catch, my post corrected to reflect that. Thanks.

[Done Deal]

Good catch, my post corrected to reflect that. Thanks.


No problem...

[Leader]

Your first statement is misleading as it is not totally accurate.

If you are carrying with a hunting license, you need the ID that you purchased it with.

If you are OC'ing afield under a CPL, then you will need to be able to verify that you have that CPL which means, producing identification.

Your advice could get somebody in a mess of trouble if they are out and about in an area frequented by wild game....

If you are OC'ing afield, you don't need a CPL and having one wouldn't have any effect on your OC status.

You don't need any ID to OC.
You DO need ID if you are hunting and you also need a hunting license.
BUT you don't need a CPL *UNLESS* you conceal a handgun.
You also should read and understand the handgun laws in Michigan before you attempt to carry a handgun in any way.

[Done Deal]

If you are OC'ing afield, you don't need a CPL and having one wouldn't have any effect on your OC status.


You don't need any ID to OC.
You DO need ID if you are hunting and you also need a hunting license.

BUT you don't need a CPL *UNLESS* you conceal a handgun.
You also should read and understand the handgun laws in Michigan before you attempt to carry a handgun in any way.

Oh my word.....here we go again.:roll:

You sir, are mistaken. I have bolded the two portions of your post that are not categorically factual.

You really should read and understand Michigan laws before you attempt to carry a handgun afield concealed or otherwise.

Sometimes I really wish this was FTF so I could ask folks to put their money where.....

[Leader]

Oh my word.....here we go again.:roll:

You sir, are mistaken. I have bolded the two portions of your post that are not categorically factual.

You really should read and understand Michigan laws before you attempt to carry a handgun afield concealed or otherwise.

Sometimes I really wish this was FTF so I could ask folks to put their money where.....

Well, I'm sure willing to learn where I am wrong.
Please show me where the law states you must have a CPL to OPEN CARRY.

Also, please point out when you need a CPL other then when you are carrying a CONCEALED handgun.

[nikon1123]

You do need a CPL to open carry in the CEZs listed in MCL 750.234d. Or permission works just as well.

[Done Deal]

Well, I'm sure willing to learn where I am wrong.
Please show me where the law states you must have a CPL to OPEN CARRY.

Also, please point out when you need a CPL other then when you are carrying a CONCEALED handgun.

Ok, do me a favor....next fall when you are bow hunting and open carrying without a CPL call the local CO and tell them exactly where you are....

Secondly, are you telling me that there are not places where you need a cpl to open carry?

[Venator12]

Well, I'm sure willing to learn where I am wrong.
Please show me where the law states you must have a CPL to OPEN CARRY.

Also, please point out when you need a CPL other then when you are carrying a CONCEALED handgun.

There are DNR rules that prohibit firearms carried in areas where game frequent (Woods, fields, etc.) unless you have a hunting license, except I believe on your own property (Not sure there). The state has passed a law that exempts a CPL holder from needing a hunting license if carrying his HANDGUN for personal protection and isn't attempting to take game. If a CPL holder was afield with a long gun he would need a hunting license, unless he was target shooting in a designated area. I posted the link to the hunting regs in a previous post. It's pretty clear.

So it would seem that a Person OCing (without a CPL) in the woods would need at least a small game license. That's the DNR for you. I think any person should be able to OC a handgun at any time and without a hunting licenses in the great woods of this state. If they are poaching game then deal with them at that time.

[Done Deal]

So it would seem that a Person OCing in the woods would need at least a small game license. That's the DNR for you. I think any person should be able to OC a handgun at any time and without a hunting licenses in the great woods of this state. If they are poaching game then deal with them at that time.


Does anybody know of a ticket being written when somebody was just out for a stroll with a handgun?

The DNR does have some goofy rules (like no centerfire after dark for predators) but....I really don't think that they are going to be charging folks for simply carrying afield unless something else is going on (like attempting to take game or while bow hunting without a CPL). But, one never knows for sure....

[Leader]

Ok, do me a favor....next fall when you are bow hunting and open carrying without a CPL call the local CO and tell them exactly where you are....

Secondly, are you telling me that there are not places where you need a cpl to open carry?

We wern't talking about while bow hunting, we were talking about a stroll in the woods. If I am bow hunting I have to obey all the laws concerning hunting.
Yes there are places where you can openly carry only if you have a CPL.
Those are exceptions to the fact that you may open carry WITHOUT a CPL.
So I must agree that you pointed out where a CPL is needed.
I agree that I am categorically factualy wrong and you must have a CPL to open carry.

[Done Deal]

We wern't talking about while bow hunting, we were talking about a stroll in the woods. If I am bow hunting I have to obey all the laws concerning hunting.
Yes there are places where you can openly carry only if you have a CPL.
Those are exceptions to the fact that you may open carry WITHOUT a CPL.
So I must agree that you pointed out where a CPL is needed.
I agree that I am categorically factualy wrong and you must have a CPL to open carry.

Thank you for clearing things up.

Nobody wants to see somebody get jammed up because of something that they might have misunderstood from reading here....

[Venator12]

We wern't talking about while bow hunting, we were talking about a stroll in the woods. If I am bow hunting I have to obey all the laws concerning hunting.
Yes there are places where you can openly carry only if you have a CPL.
Those are exceptions to the fact that you may open carry WITHOUT a CPL.
So I must agree that you pointed out where a CPL is needed.
I agree that I am categorically factualy wrong and you must have a CPL to open carry.
Maybe not so clear. I found this under handguns in the hunting guide. It doesn't say anything about having to have a license. Below is from the DNR website in the hunting guide section. You must be careful as these guides are often not clearly written and exclude important aspects of the law.

Perhaps I need to call the law division and get an answer to the question if it's legal to OC in the woods without a CPL.

Statewide Handgun Regulations

The rules listed below may not apply to a person having a concealed pistol license (CPL) or a person specifically exempt by law from a CPL and carrying their handgun in accordance with their license or exemption.

A person must be at least 18 years of age to hunt with (possess) a handgun.

Handguns cannot be borrowed or loaned to another person other than provided for under the CPL.

While in the field, handguns must be carried in plain view. Carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view is permitted.

You may transport your registered handguns while en route to and from your hunting or target shooting area; however, handguns, including BB guns larger than .177 caliber and all pellet guns must be unloaded and in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms and cannot be readily accessible to any occupant of the vehicle.

It is a crime for certain felons to possess firearms, including rifles and shotguns, in Michigan.

Nonresidents must have a CPL issued by their home state in their possession in order to legally carry or transport a handgun in Michigan.

For more information regarding statewide handgun regulations, obtaining a concealed pistol license or Michigan concealed weapons and firearms laws, contact your local police department.

[fbuckner]

Female I hope.


Could be Ronald McDonald he's a redhed or Bozo the clown or maybe Wendy.

[Leader]

But ...but.. DD said you need a CPL to open carry.

He knows.

[dougwg]

Ronald is not little and neither was Bozo....Wendy on the other hand :mischeif:

[Done Deal]

But ...but.. DD said you need a CPL to open carry.

He knows.

I know that I said that under some circumstances, you certainly do need a CPL to open carry. That assertion was a direct dispute of your misguided claim that it was not necessary.

So, now that we know that you were incorrect, what is your point?

[Leader]

I know that I said that under some circumstances, you certainly do need a CPL to open carry. That assertion was a direct dispute of your misguided claim that it was not necessary.

So, now that we know that you were incorrect, what is your point?

I never said that open carry is ok & legal under any and all circumstances that have ever been dreamed up.
What I said was you don't need a CPL to open carry on a stroll in the woods. I didn't mention anything about bow hunting or being in pistol free zones. I didn't even say it is ok if you are drunk.

Your statement would lead people to believe they need a CPL to open carry & that is not the case under most circumstances.

[dougwg]

Both of you are being too general in your statements.

This is why it is stated that you being the one that wants to engage in whatever activity should research the law and fully understand it before acting.

[Done Deal]

I never said that open carry is ok & legal under any and all circumstances that have ever been dreamed up.
What I said was you don't need a CPL to open carry on a stroll in the woods.


The following is what you said----remember?

-2009, 03:52 PM #33
Leader
Hard Core Activist
Associate Member


If you are OC'ing afield, you don't need a CPL and having one wouldn't have any effect on your OC status.

Maybe, maybe not so....on a true/false test, the correct answer would be false. You were mistaken.


You don't need any ID to OC.

Maybe, maybe not so again, to say that your statement is always true would be incorrect...

You DO need ID if you are hunting and you also need a hunting license.
BUT you don't need a CPL *UNLESS* you conceal a handgun.

Uh, again....you do need a CPL when carrying a pistol open or concealed so again, you were mistaken.



So, now that we recall what you did and didn't say.....lets go to what I said.

I said, you were mistaken....and my assertion is supported by fact, not fiction.

[Done Deal]

This is why it is stated that you being the one that wants to engage in whatever activity should research the law and fully understand it before acting.

Acting like what?:winker: :laugh:

[Kimberguy1371]

I'm gonna disagree with you there, ghostrider. There are places off limits to open carry unless you have a cpl.

Like banks! :hide: