Open Carry Incident in Ohio

[MikeN]

Open Carry Incident Parma, OH, 17 March 2009
by BCinOH » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:18 pm

To the best of my recollection, here is my account of the events of last night up until I started recording my conversation with the officers who detained me for approximately 20 minutes total.

Last night I decided to walk to Taco Bell and get a quesadilla. I was open carrying. I walked to the restaurant, ordered my food, paid for it, ate it, used the restroom, then exited the building with a drink in my hand. I walked across the parking lot toward the sidewalk, and two police cruisers slowed down. I nodded toward them (as is my custom to do toward any police officer/fireman/EMT if I make eye contact with them), and attempted to proceed on my way.

At this point the officer in the passenger side rolled down the window of his cruiser, ordered me to stop where I was and to place my hands on my head. I had a large Pepsi in my left hand, so it was a bit awkward, but I held that hand up close to my head and placed my other hand on my head as I had been instructed. The officer questioned me as to whether I possessed a CCH permit. I informed the officer that I did not, and that open carry was lawful in the State of Ohio. I asked the officer if I could retrieve my digital voice recorder to record our conversation, he denied my request at this time, asking me to wait until they had checked me for any additional weapons.

I do not know if a gun was drawn on me at any point because my back was turned to all three officers until I was both disarmed and frisked. Because I use a Blackhawk SERPA holster, my firearm was secured such that I had to instruct the officer on my right (the one not holding my hands on top of my head) how to extract the firearm from its holster.

Once disarmed and frisked, they allowed me to turn around and stood at a normal talking distance from me. At this point, I pulled out my voice recorder and immediately started recording. The audio is available here:

Note: I cut out a short section toward the end (right before we start talking about my vocation in IT, "babysitting servers all night" and bonking them upside the head when they misbehave) where I spoke about personal matters with the officers, but other than that, it is unedited.

--

My belief, given what I know of the law, related court cases, and the advisements of other departments and attorneys general, is that my rights were violated at the very start of the stop when the officers disarmed me, frisked me, and detained me in the manner of a felony stop with the exception that they did not handcuff me.

As you will hear in the audio, the officers were generally professional and polite throughout the encounter, in what was potentially a highly volatile situation. Because of this fact, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that it was an honest mistake. ***However***, because it was a *serious* mistake, and one dealing with the violation of multiple fundamental rights, I do wish to pursue a course of action and communication which would result in Parma PD's dispatchers and officers being formally notified and educated of firearms laws and grounds for Terry stops in the State of Ohio.

Sorry if the audio is of poor quality. I was playing it out of the speaker of my recorder and into my computer's microphone. When I get a male-to-male cable, I'll post a link to higher quality audio

Audio link middle of page

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=29271 Audio link

[7.62 Nato]

linky no worky

[MikeN]

New Link at bottom of post,

[Shireman]

Sounds like you are knowledgeable about your laws, and were polite. Good work.

[327poc]

Sounds like everyone was professional about this. Wether rights were violated or not I am glad that you and the officers acted professional about the matter.

[Venator12]

Open Carry Incident Parma, OH, 17 March 2009
by BCinOH » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:18 pm

To the best of my recollection, here is my account of the events of last night up until I started recording my conversation with the officers who detained me for approximately 20 minutes total.

Last night I decided to walk to Taco Bell and get a quesadilla. I was open carrying. I walked to the restaurant, ordered my food, paid for it, ate it, used the restroom, then exited the building with a drink in my hand. I walked across the parking lot toward the sidewalk, and two police cruisers slowed down. I nodded toward them (as is my custom to do toward any police officer/fireman/EMT if I make eye contact with them), and attempted to proceed on my way.

At this point the officer in the passenger side rolled down the window of his cruiser, ordered me to stop where I was and to place my hands on my head. I had a large Pepsi in my left hand, so it was a bit awkward, but I held that hand up close to my head and placed my other hand on my head as I had been instructed. The officer questioned me as to whether I possessed a CCH permit. I informed the officer that I did not, and that open carry was lawful in the State of Ohio. I asked the officer if I could retrieve my digital voice recorder to record our conversation, he denied my request at this time, asking me to wait until they had checked me for any additional weapons.

I do not know if a gun was drawn on me at any point because my back was turned to all three officers until I was both disarmed and frisked. Because I use a Blackhawk SERPA holster, my firearm was secured such that I had to instruct the officer on my right (the one not holding my hands on top of my head) how to extract the firearm from its holster.

Once disarmed and frisked, they allowed me to turn around and stood at a normal talking distance from me. At this point, I pulled out my voice recorder and immediately started recording. The audio is available here:

Note: I cut out a short section toward the end (right before we start talking about my vocation in IT, "babysitting servers all night" and bonking them upside the head when they misbehave) where I spoke about personal matters with the officers, but other than that, it is unedited.

--

My belief, given what I know of the law, related court cases, and the advisements of other departments and attorneys general, is that my rights were violated at the very start of the stop when the officers disarmed me, frisked me, and detained me in the manner of a felony stop with the exception that they did not handcuff me.

As you will hear in the audio, the officers were generally professional and polite throughout the encounter, in what was potentially a highly volatile situation. Because of this fact, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that it was an honest mistake. ***However***, because it was a *serious* mistake, and one dealing with the violation of multiple fundamental rights, I do wish to pursue a course of action and communication which would result in Parma PD's dispatchers and officers being formally notified and educated of firearms laws and grounds for Terry stops in the State of Ohio.

Sorry if the audio is of poor quality. I was playing it out of the speaker of my recorder and into my computer's microphone. When I get a male-to-male cable, I'll post a link to higher quality audio

Audio link middle of page

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=29271 Audio link

Mike you talked too much. You can't convince them they did anything wrong. You started off good, am I being detained, etc. But after that you should have shut up.

[fbuckner]

The way I see it he did a good job at educting them and most likely the word will spread thru the Parma Dept. Anything less than that would be fishing for a lawsuit in my book and is akin to deliberatly walking on a sidewalk looking to fall and is dirty tactics.

[MikeN]

Sorry for the confusion i was not involved.

Mike

[Done Deal]

Sorry for the confusion i was not involved.

Mike

What confusion? You cannot be held responsible if readers don't read what you posted before replying.....

[327poc]

I must have misread something. I thought this happened to Mike based on the opening line :

Quote:
To the best of my recollection, here is my account of the events of last night up until I started recording my conversation with the officers who detained me for approximately 20 minutes total.

[MikeN]

Open Carry Incident in Ohio

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Open Carry Incident Parma, OH, 17 March 2009
by BCinOH » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:18 pm

"To the best of my recollection, here is my account of the events of last night up until I started recording my conversation with the officers who detained me for approximately 20 minutes total.''


Again sorry for the confusion, I live in a farming community just outside of Lansing, and no, I am not a farmer.

[dougwg]

then put that in your profile....

[Venator12]

It made the news and you can hear what the police are doing.

http://crufflecarp.org/video/parma/parma.html

http://www.examiner.com/x-2206-Cleveland-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m3d20-Fox-news-in-Ohio-covers-open-carry-of-a-firearm

[mishooter]

Again sorry for the confusion, ...A suggestion, Mike: Next time, try putting quoted material in a quote block, as in


This is quoted material.

That way it's obvious it's not your original material.

[bowend]

The police there do not like the open carry law, so they sent information to the businesses so they can create "gun free zones" because of this incident. Oi... :smoke:

[Super Trucker]

The police there do not like the open carry law, so they sent information to the businesses so they can create "gun free zones" because of this incident. Oi... :smoke:

And some people actually wonder why many people have zero trust for police.

[Venator12]

The police there do not like the open carry law, so they sent information to the businesses so they can create "gun free zones" because of this incident. Oi... :smoke:
What this reminds me of is when the German police and other authorities started telling people not to shop at the Jewish owned stores. The police have no Fing business telling private property owners what they should or shouldn't do. The gall of this Chief.

On the opposite end Four Coney places in Flint are putting up LAWFUL CARRY WELCOME with MOC's logo. Tom's Coney King on Dort Hwy, their drive thru (Not open yet) and the two other coney places the owners own. They will also give a 5% discount to MOC members when we incorporate and have membership cards. So it can work both ways.

[ShootinFool]

Mike, thanks for sharing. The Ohioan who posted this is doing a public service to educate the police officers. He is well versed in Ohio law and he has spunk but he was a bit too argumentative.

If more of us exercised our rights to open carry, this wouldn't be a big deal any more. I remember traveling through downtown Dallas, Texas. There were several businessmen open carrying pearl handled Colt .45 SAA guns in nice western rigs with spit-shined ammo in the loops. I think it was more of a fashion statement but it was still cool to see so many people exercising their rights.

[dougwg]

Mike, thanks for sharing. The Ohioan who posted this is doing a public service to educate the police officers. He is well versed in Ohio law and he has spunk but he was a bit too argumentative.

If more of us exercised our rights to open carry, this wouldn't be a big deal any more. I remember traveling through downtown Dallas, Texas. There were several businessmen open carrying pearl handled Colt .45 SAA guns in nice rigs with spit-shined ammo in the loops. I think it was more of a fashion statement but it was still cool to see so many people exercising their rights.

That must have been some time ago.... as of right now Texas is a non-open carry state along with Florida.

[Willard Of Oz]

As a completely un-biased observer and listener to the tape.

The police did a very good job with you. They were polite and acted in a professional manner.

As stated before, you talked WAY to much.

Even though you were calm your actions and non stop comments on the law could have been taken as very provacitive.

You should have sat quietly while the police officers did their job.

Nothing you said was anything the officers had any control over. Your arguments were more suited for a court. They could not make a judgement, they had to wait for the ok from the supervisor.

It turned out well, but next time just say what you said in the beginning and then be quiet.

[bob the goat]

I would respectfully disagree with what some others have said here. You very clearly asked them if you were being detained. He said no. Then you asked if you were free to go (what I thought was a redundant question), and they said no. I'm not a lawyer, but if you are NOT free to go, then you are being detained. As you mentioned (assuming OH open carry is the same as MI) they are not allowed to detain you for open carrying. They were Very much in the wrong. You were doing a civic duty by educating the ignorant. As the one officer said, they are not used to seeing someone carrying a gun.

I would hope that the next time they get a report of "guy with a gun....not doing anything" they will know that stopping that person is wrong.

The cop was doing one thing that flagged his own ignorance, and you very subtly touched on it. He asked you if you were some ignorant person and saw a guy with a gun wouldn't you be concerned? You held your tounge better than I would have. My response would have been "While I understand what you are driving at, you are the one that the uneducated person called. You are the one responsible for knowing what is against the law. Open carry is NOT against the law. I was not doing anything against the law, nor was I doing anything suspicious. As a Law Enforcement Officer, your responsibility and duty is to uphold the law, not to detain people that are not breaking the law." I'm sure you were better served by having a cooler head than I would have had.

[nikon1123]

I love it when people only read the OP and ignore the rest of the thread...

[Venator12]

That must have been some time ago.... as of right now Texas is a non-open carry state along with Florida.
Like a long time ago, My understanding is Texas outlawed OC in the 1800's.

[TNT.45]

Great post! I think he said Sir a few too many times. Needed to mix it up with the man, 5.0, donut expert...lol

[ShootinFool]

That must have been some time ago.... as of right now Texas is a non-open carry state along with Florida.
It was around 1990, quite a while ago. I was visiting an old girlfriend. Things didn't work out and I haven't been back since. I didn't know it was illegal at the time. Maybe the guys I saw were breaking the law or maybe they were plain clothes officers. I don't know.

[Talus]

An excellent way to assert your rights, I might have gotten a bit more upset by the fact they were violating my rights. Hopefully if this situation arises in my case, I have the same level head you did :)

[Reebs]

Officer: Would you like a ride home?

Open Carry Guy: No sir, it is unlawful for me to carry in the car. :o :)


Best line of it all.