Ripped from another forum....good read.

[dougwg]

I started browsing this forum out of curiosity, and I have seen some very good stuff here. A lot of people with a good amount of experience and knowledge, and some good opinions. However, I am astonished at the general attitude toward open carry. I would be ok with everyone here saying "ok, cool, but sorry, it's not for me", but that's not the case. Some folks here say that, and I, for one, will not berate a person for making that choice. That is your right. The problem I have is with the folks who come out and say that no one in their right mind would do such a thing, that it's beyond stupid, and has absolutely no possible good effect. I could turn this easily into a pro-con debate, but that's not allowed, and is pointless besides.

I am a quiet person. I speak quietly. I dress conservatively. I don't go around being loud, pointing and laughing. I drive a very normal car. I generally make a habit of not drawing attention to myself, for any reason. For most of the time I have had my CPL, I have carried concealed, and mostly continue to carry that way. I have to say, though, that when it comes to my guns and my rights, I'm growing very weary of feeling that I need to hide because what I believe in is bad. It's taboo to bring up the 2nd Amendment when I walk into a customers house. It's taboo to bring it up in public, because I might offend the man or woman seated next to me, eating their lunch. Why is this? The media has made most people, including many here, believe that guns are not meant to be visible. They are the redheaded stepchild, meant not to be seen, OR heard. This is very detrimental to being able to keep our right.

Here's a quote from a state constitution: "The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons." (http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/states.rkba.html) This shows the opinion of concealed carry when the document was written. It was a practice of the sneaky, backstabbing, untrustworthy section of society. Our rights have been slowly whittled away to the point that now, this is the only socially acceptable practice, because it doesn't "frighten" anyone. Out of sight, out of mind. This has been drilled into even gun owners minds. Well, I'm TIRED of rolling over, and playing submissive. I'm TIRED of being shoved into the closet. Owning and carrying guns does NOT make me a bad person. I WANT the choice to open carry, even if I don't wish to exercise it all the time.

I've seen several comments of "it may be legal, but I can't do it here". In Michigan, a year ago, it was the same way. There was a lot of harassment, many instances of LEO enforcing their opinion instead of the law as written. It has taken a few people openly carrying, and contacting lawmakers to make their opinions and wishes known, to get some things changed. God bless them. In only a year, Michigan has made incredible headway with law enforcement, government, and society, to begin to show that gun owners and ownership is not criminal. The people have begun to get involved in their government, and have changed how some things work. If you don't like what you have where you're at, make phone calls, write letters, show up at your local gov't meetings, and make a difference. Don't belittle and berate the brothers in your own community because they choose to exercise the same right you do in a slightly different way. We're all on the same page, guys. We need to keep our right to keep and bear, no matter how it's exercised.

Carry on

Link (http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/1081464-post21.html)

[7.62 Nato]

:yeahthat:

[Knimrod]

I WANT the choice to open carry, even if I don't wish to exercise it all the time.

Where's the beef? He has the lawful choice.

He's not complaining about the law, He's complaining about the general public being alarmed at the sight of an openly carried gun and lack of support for his choice from the gun owning community.

It is what it is. If society has evolved (or devolved if you will) to the point where openly carried weapons are cause for alarm, then that's the way it is.

In your face? The way I see it, if you openly carry for your own protection or even because you can, more power to ya! If you are doing it to make a statement about the open carry movement, push your open carry political agenda, desensitize the public, or look like Joe Tacticool, then don't be surprised when the general public pushes back. When private businesses start reacting by posting "no weapons" signs, or law enforcement agencies start promoting the display of "no weapons" signs, that impinges on my rights and now we have a serious disagreement about open carry political tactics. There's a risk there that can't be denied. On the other hand, nothing I do by lawfully carrying concealed places any risk on those that open carry. Food for thought...

[dougwg]

It's not my fault people OC, I know you didn't say that but...

I believe that when people talk of the battle for rights, it is not limited to just the right it's self but also the acceptance of the right and the freedom from persecution from those that do not understand the right.

I draw the parallel between two quite easily.
Some believe in the RKBA and they struggle to get those that don't to understand that right and to not cast aspersion upon people that wish to exercise that right no matter what the personal reason. I think you believe this is a noble cause.

Some believe in the right to OC and they struggle to get those that don't to understand that right and to not cast aspersion upon people that wish to exercise that right no matter what the personal reason. You think this is bad.

The whole reason OC is getting steam behind it is because of the change to "shall issue".

When they changed the law many more people started to read and understand the law. Everyone that got their CPL app. package also got a book containing Michigan gun law.... they started to read and become much more educated on law and also rights.

It's a natural progression of events and no one can stop nature. It is what it is.

When private businesses start reacting by posting "no weapons" signs, or law enforcement agencies start promoting the display of "no weapons" signs,
I know some just want to hide in a corner and never make a wave. But those that fight for the acceptance of rights should not be ostracized by those that will enjoy the fruits of the battle won.

Call it what you will but we are in a war to try to keep our 2A rights intact.

I did not start this war, I'm merely a foot solder. There are natural rules of war that no one can change, not me and not you. I can understand that you find some of the aspects of this war distasteful, I'm sorry. Casualties are inevitable.

[dougwg]

If you're uncomfortable with me using the "war" analogy lets try this one.

A bunch of us are in a raft on the open sea.

There is an island (freedom) right over there but there are winds (Omama, Biden, Pelosi, Brady) pushing us away from it...slowly.

Some of us in the raft want to row toward the island but this will cause waves. We know this but also know that being on the island is better then being in a raft in the open sea.

You are afraid that if we make waves it will effect you and you'll become sea sick. I'm sorry, it's a cold hard fact that we will all die in this raft and we must reach shore. If you're not going to help us row the boat to shore at least stop gripping about your upset tummy.

[ghostrider]

... On the other hand, nothing I do by lawfully carrying concealed places any risk on those that open carry. Food for thought...
I'll have to agree to disagree with that last statement. While accurate for the most part, that doesn't mean that it is entirely true.

[dougwg]

I'll have to agree to disagree with that last statement. While accurate for the most part, that doesn't mean that it is entirely true.

Please explain.

[Clipper]

The thing that occurs to me is how much the anti-OC types sound like Jim Zumbo's anti-'assault weapons' arguments relating to how they made 'respectable' hunters look bad...

[dougwg]

The thing that occurs to me is how much the anti-OC types sound like Jim Zumbo's anti-'assault weapons' arguments relating to how they made 'respectable' hunters look bad...

I made this exact point about a year ago and was severely scolded for it. Link (http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=29174)

I guess the truth hurts sometimes.

[ghostrider]

Please explain.Some officers are against any private citizens carrying. There are plenty of stories where the mention of CCW status to an officer automatically escalates the encounter, sometimes even berating the CCW holder for carrying. It's no big secret, it's just accepted as part of the price for exercising a privilage.

[Venator12]

Where's the beef? He has the lawful choice.

He's not complaining about the law, He's complaining about the general public being alarmed But we are proving that this is not the case, it is exaggerated to uphold an agenda. at the sight of an openly carried gun and lack of support for his choice from the gun owning community.

It is what it is. This could be said of racism, slavery, political corruption, etc. just because it is, doesn't mean it should be. If society has evolved (or devolved if you will) to the point where openly carried weapons are cause for alarm, then that's the way it is. Wow, just Wow

In your face? The way I see it, if you openly carry for your own protection or even because you can, more power to ya! If you are doing it to make a statement about the open carry movement, push your open carry political agenda, desensitize the public, or look like Joe Tacticool, then don't be surprised when the general public pushes back. Why can't a person OC for all these reasons? When private businesses start reacting by posting "no weapons" signs, We have actually worked with business to put up OC is welcome here signs. or law enforcement agencies start promoting the display of "no weapons" signs, This is illegal due to preemption, I think you know that. that impinges on my rights and now we have a serious disagreement about open carry political tactics. All the more reason to fight for your rights and to spend your money where you beliefs are. There's a risk there that can't be denied. On the other hand, nothing I do by lawfully carrying concealed places any risk on those that open carry. Except yourself, of course. From the mind set of most muggers you are more likely to be robbed then an OCer, as criminals like what they perceive as a soft target, i.e. someone they think is unarmed. They tend to bypass those they know or think are armed. Food for thought...

My opinions in red.

[Done Deal]

If you're uncomfortable with me using the "war" analogy lets try this one.

A bunch of us are in a raft on the open sea.

There is an island (freedom) right over there but there are winds (Omama, Biden, Pelosi, Brady) pushing us away from it...slowly.

Some of us in the raft want to row toward the island but this will cause waves. We know this but also know that being on the island is better then being in a raft in the open sea.

You are afraid that if we make waves it will effect you and you'll become sea sick. I'm sorry, it's a cold hard fact that we will all die in this raft and we must reach shore. If you're not going to help us row the boat to shore at least stop gripping about your upset tummy.

For starters, that is an assumption that you will die if you merely stay in the raft.

But, if you keeping dangling your bloody legs over the side of the raft it is going to attrack the sharks toward all of us. I don't want to get eaten because you wanted to kick instead of just paddle. And, if enough of us get eaten, we won't have the strength to paddle or anything else necessary for survival.

[springerdave]

If some one gets to pacify the sharks, I have an idea who it will be.

Lets say We, Knimrod and I, are in a theater. I am OCing Knimrod is hiding his gun. We don't know that a bank has been robbed and somehow the perp escapes to the theater. The cops think he is in there and have the theater personel turn up the lights and start to interrogate everyone in the building. I don't match the discription of the perp but Knimrod does. the cop searches everyone and finds Knimrods... Oh, thats right they don't find his gun, because he hid it in his car. Humm... We have a nice chat with Officer Friendly and finish the movie. The end.

[327poc]

Some officers are against any private citizens carrying. There are plenty of stories where the mention of CCW status to an officer automatically escalates the encounter, sometimes even berating the CCW holder for carrying. It's no big secret, it's just accepted as part of the price for exercising a privilage.

CPL holders not CCW. CCW implies to law enforcement that you are commiting a crime. Like you said, some officers are against private citizens carrying, but MOST are for it. Most will tell you that if the @#$t hit the fan and they needed help they would more than welcome an armed citizen who comes to their aid.

[ShootinFool]

Unfortunately, our society has morphed in to a commercialized culture where people want to get as far away from reality as they possibly can and they want things to be as simple as possible. People want to eat chicken but they don't want to slaughter the animal and get blood on their hands. They want to live in safe, decent neighborhoods but they don't want to pay taxes. They want good, high-paying jobs but they don't want to invest in education and training because it's so expensive. They want their lives and homes defended but they want a guarantee of safety from the police or the alarm company so they won't have to be prepared to confront danger themselves.

There is a movement to make everything as easy as possible. Just pay the monthly bills for all the services you need. There is a service for everything. Pay the lawn guy to cut the grass so you can sit on your butt, watch some sitcoms and gain weight. Watch the commercials and fantasize about what you are going to buy with your next paycheck if there is a next paycheck. Pay a maid to clean your house once a week and if you're lucky, the maid won't steal your valuables. Pay the neighbor to watch your kids and if you're lucky, the kids won't get molested. If the reality is too much to deal with, there is always somebody willing to give you a hit or two of a drug so you can escape. But when you come back for the third hit it's not free anymore and you have to pay him, too.

I'm not talking to any person in particular but in case you don't get what I'm saying, let me put it this way. If you have something that you care about, take care of it yourself. Nobody is going to care more about your stuff, your family or your rights than you do.

We have the right to keep and bear arms and the right to open carry. If we pretend that those rights are not necessary because someone else is going to take up the slack for us, we will eventually lose those rights. If you have something that you are not using, there is always somebody who has his eye on it. They will say "as long as you're not using that and you don't need it, I'll take it off your hands so you don't have to worry about it anymore."

I'll step down from my soap box now. God bless the state of Michigan and God bless America.

[BWHaas]

Unfortunately, our society has morphed in to a commercialized culture where people want to get as far away from reality as they possibly can and they want things to be as simple as possible. People want to eat chicken but they don't want to slaughter the animal and get blood on their hands. They want to live in safe, decent neighborhoods but they don't want to pay taxes. They want good, high-paying jobs but they don't want to invest in education and training because it's so expensive. They want their lives and homes defended but they want a guarantee of safety from the police or the alarm company so they won't have to be prepared to confront danger themselves.

There is a movement to make everything as easy as possible. Just pay the monthly bills for all the services you need. There is a service for everything. Pay the lawn guy to cut the grass so you can sit on your butt, watch some sitcoms and gain weight. Watch the commercials and fantasize about what you are going to buy with your next paycheck if there is a next paycheck. Pay a maid to clean your house once a week and if you're lucky, the maid won't steal your valuables. Pay the neighbor to watch your kids and if you're lucky, the kids won't get molested. If the reality is too much to deal with, there is always somebody willing to give you a hit or two of a drug so you can escape. But when you come back for the third hit it's not free anymore and you have to pay him, too.

I'm not talking to any person in particular but in case you don't get what I'm saying, let me put it this way. If you have something that you care about, take care of it yourself. Nobody is going to care more about your stuff, your family or your rights than you do.

We have the right to keep and bear arms and the right to open carry. If we pretend that those rights are not necessary because someone else is going to take up the slack for us, we will eventually lose those rights. If you have something that you are not using, there is always somebody who has his eye on it. They will say "as long as you're not using that and you don't need it, I'll take it off your hands so you don't have to worry about it anymore."

I'll step down from my soap box now. God bless the state of Michigan and God bless America.

:yeahthat: Wow, took all the words right out of my mouth. Thanks!