CONSIDER THIS...

[Willard Of Oz]

SOmething to consider

From Phillip L. Smith--CCW Supply in Lansing, MI:

TACTICAL ADVANTAGE #1: KEEP YOUR FIREARM CONCEALED

Here's the scenario: It's 9:25 p.m. and you're last in line at the ice cream shop. Unknown to you, two perps have been watching the clerk make the evening deposit for the last 3 days. The perps think it is too risky trying to rob the clerk while he is dropping the deposit bag in the bank's well lit and patrolled night depository, so they decide a quick armed robbery at closing time is in order. You've lived in Arizona all your life and are quite aware of the law which allows open carry and you even think its macho and a good idea. Who would ever give trouble to a person who carries an open hand gun on their side? Well, you are about to find out. The robbers burst in the front door and what do they see? A scared teenager armed only with an ice cream dipper, AND you, with your 1911 strapped to your side.

Since they perceive you will draw your handgun, they fire first, and you drop to the floor without having drawn your weapon. Is it fair--no! Is it real--yes! Time for the big question: "What did you do wrong that ended up costing you your life?" You laid your Aces on the table while you were playing poker--You gave up an extremely important tactical advantage by displaying your sidearm thereby broadcasting the exact location of a hindrance to a criminal's evil intent. The greatest tactical advantage you possess is surprise! You lose that advantage when you wear your firearm openly. You can also lose the advantage by flashing (allowing it to be seen), by printing (allowing the outline of the gun to be seen), or by bragging to everyone that you carry a concealed weapon. Would the scenario be different if your handgun was concealed? Probably so, although you might be missing your wallet and a little pride, but the advantage gained is that you survived a deadly confrontation! Never give up your advantage of surprise. The only person who should ever know about your handgun is a perp trying to take you down.

People new to concealed carry often have a personal problem with the stealth required to conceal and carry a handgun. Confusing stealth with "being sneaky" can lead to feelings of dishonesty or even guilt. After all, hiding something from the people around you is being sneaky, right? Yes and no, depending on your intentions. Are you trying to actively deceive and harm those around you, or are you actively trying to protect an extremely important tactical advantage? Remember, it's nobody's business that you are carrying a concealed handgun, except yours!

[who dat]

Hoo boy.......:popcorn:

[AMSProcessing]

What prompted this post to the OPEN CARRY forum?

And now starts the flamewars... I'm with who dat :popcorn:

[mastiff]

Senerio: You carriy openly you walk into the store the perp that has been watching, he says sh-t that dude has a gun (I'LL WAIT TIL HE LEAVES).
End of story !!!!

Boy was that ever a short story:clap:

[Rolex Dr.]

Senerio: You carriy openly you walk into the store the perp that has been watching, he says sh-t that dude has a gun (I'LL WAIT TIL HE LEAVES).
End of story !!!!

Boy was that ever a short story:clap:

I agree 1000% but in todays world it could and may possiblily go

'man he gots a gun "BANG,BANG, BANG, BANG"
2 dead people now it went from robbery to 2 murders

reason I say this is my cousin (a 6 month pregant woman) was attempted carjack, the perp shot 1st then tried to get the car

times are getting nasty they perps shoot 1st and ask late (sometimes)

[Venator12]

SOmething to consider

From Phillip L. Smith--CCW Supply in Lansing, MI:

TACTICAL ADVANTAGE #1: KEEP YOUR FIREARM CONCEALED

Here's the scenario: It's 9:25 p.m. and you're last in line at the ice cream shop. Unknown to you, two perps have been watching the clerk make the evening deposit for the last 3 days. The perps think it is too risky trying to rob the clerk while he is dropping the deposit bag in the bank's well lit and patrolled night depository, so they decide a quick armed robbery at closing time is in order. You've lived in Arizona all your life and are quite aware of the law which allows open carry and you even think its macho and a good idea. Who would ever give trouble to a person who carries an open hand gun on their side? Well, you are about to find out. The robbers burst in the front door and what do they see? A scared teenager armed only with an ice cream dipper, AND you, with your 1911 strapped to your side.

Since they perceive you will draw your handgun, they fire first, and you drop to the floor without having drawn your weapon. Is it fair--no! Is it real--yes! Time for the big question: "What did you do wrong that ended up costing you your life?" You laid your Aces on the table while you were playing poker--You gave up an extremely important tactical advantage by displaying your sidearm thereby broadcasting the exact location of a hindrance to a criminal's evil intent. The greatest tactical advantage you possess is surprise! You lose that advantage when you wear your firearm openly. You can also lose the advantage by flashing (allowing it to be seen), by printing (allowing the outline of the gun to be seen), or by bragging to everyone that you carry a concealed weapon. Would the scenario be different if your handgun was concealed? Probably so, although you might be missing your wallet and a little pride, but the advantage gained is that you survived a deadly confrontation! Never give up your advantage of surprise. The only person who should ever know about your handgun is a perp trying to take you down.

People new to concealed carry often have a personal problem with the stealth required to conceal and carry a handgun. Confusing stealth with "being sneaky" can lead to feelings of dishonesty or even guilt. After all, hiding something from the people around you is being sneaky, right? Yes and no, depending on your intentions. Are you trying to actively deceive and harm those around you, or are you actively trying to protect an extremely important tactical advantage? Remember, it's nobody's business that you are carrying a concealed handgun, except yours!

As we say could this happen, yes, but it's not been documented to have every happened outside of movies. What has happened are several personal stories of people that have OCed and avoided potential trouble because they were wearing there weapon openly.

If you want to play scenario games try this one.
You are carrying concealed. You are walking to your car in a large box store lot. Two men approach you and display weapons, they ask for your wallet. You give them your wallet. they take it and walk away.

Now try this. You are OCing and are walking to your car in a box store lot. Two guys see your gun and walk away until they see you and you know what happens then.

Just as possible and much more probable than the previous scenario.

[.44Smith&Wesson]

I have to say, although I have not been carrying very long, i.e. not an incident to speak of yet (knocking on wood desk loudly) I believe I would have to agree with Mr. Smith on this one. It does seem to be a significant tactical advantage by carrying concealed. I realize we can play this scenario, that scenario all day and guess at what may happen in any given situation. But considering at the onset of a confrontation the bad guys know what they are about to do, you must react after the fact. And although open carry would allow for a quicker draw and action, I believe open carry would make you that first target that they, with suprise on their side, would quickly dispatch of first. Not only obviously a bummer for you, but also leaving (probably) anyone else there that you may have been able to protect with you firearm, defenseless. Room for arguement on both sides, but I think I'll continue to carry concealed so that the element of surprise, or at least the option to draw when decided, or not to, makes me just another customer at the store, or in the line, or whatever. :twocents:

[Venator12]

I have to say, although I have not been carrying very long, i.e. not an incident to speak of yet (knocking on wood desk loudly) I believe I would have to agree with Mr. Smith on this one. It does seem to be a significant tactical advantage by carrying concealed. I realize we can play this scenario, that scenario all day and guess at what may happen in any given situation. But considering at the onset of a confrontation the bad guys know what they are about to do, you must react after the fact. And although open carry would allow for a quicker draw and action, I believe open carry would make you that first target that they, with suprise on their side, would quickly dispatch of first. Not only obviously a bummer for you, but also leaving (probably) anyone else there that you may have been able to protect with you firearm, defenseless. Room for arguement on both sides, but I think I'll continue to carry concealed so that the element of surprise, or at least the option to draw when decided, or not to, makes me just another customer at the store, or in the line, or whatever. :twocents:

OCers hear this MYTH all the time, you will be the first one shot. Yet none can document one case where this has happened. While it could happen the probability is that it won't. But OCing can be shown to deter crime as per my example above. Of the thousands of people that OC around the country have shown, being shot first just doesn't happen.

I think most people that OC don't care how you carry, OC or not, but do some research and critically think about the pros and cons. My opinion is that the data shows there are far more pros than cons to OCing.

[7.62 Nato]

Any hypothetical situation can be written with any ending you want and it won't be wrong because it's hypothetical.

[.44Smith&Wesson]

I agree, hypothetical situation, hypothetical outcome. So Venator, how about this data you speak of ,I would like to read real case examples, any links or publication suggestions are appreciated. As per your "examples" which are hypothetical, the scenario could also go like this. Robber sees you in box store lot, openly carrying, but thinking only of robbing you and not noticing the gun on your hip produces a weapon and demands the wallet. Then either noticing you are armed, just shoots and takes your wallet, or you reach for the wallet and he then notices it on your hip, thinks your gonna draw, and shoots you, or hands go up as he now sees you are armed, takes your gun from you and shoots you with it, (worst case scenario). At least if it is concealed you can choose to give the wallet, or if he is armed with less than a gun, you can take cover and draw, or just retreat. My point is like NATO said, hypothetical serves noone, we need to use real documented situations, and even then there will be an element of guessing what would, could have happened. The fact that most people who O.C don't care how I carry, does not affect me.

[dougwg]

As soon as he said "macho" he lost all credibility.

Just like when the likes of Sarah Brady say such things about gun owners.

It's not about being macho. If it were none of would be carrying J frames or PM9's.

[Venator12]

I agree, hypothetical situation, hypothetical outcome. So Venator, how about this data you speak of ,I would like to read real case examples, any links or publication suggestions are appreciated. As per your "examples" which are hypothetical, the scenario could also go like this. Robber sees you in box store lot, openly carrying, but thinking only of robbing you and not noticing the gun on your hip produces a weapon and demands the wallet. Then either noticing you are armed, just shoots and takes your wallet, or you reach for the wallet and he then notices it on your hip, thinks your gonna draw, and shoots you, or hands go up as he now sees you are armed, takes your gun from you and shoots you with it, (worst case scenario). At least if it is concealed you can choose to give the wallet, or if he is armed with less than a gun, you can take cover and draw, or just retreat. My point is like NATO said, hypothetical serves noone, we need to use real documented situations, and even then there will be an element of guessing what would, could have happened. The fact that most people who O.C don't care how I carry, does not affect me.

You can go to opencarry.org and read the many stories of someone that was approached by a questionable person when said person saw the gun and left. Not scientific by any means, but can you relate any "You will be shoot first" cases? No I didn't think so.

The US department of justice interviewed hundreds of criminals in jail and asked them if knowing a person may be armed was a deterrent? the majority said yes. Do what you want in regards to carrying, but I question those that say "you will be shot first" without at least 1 example of this ever happening.

[Just A Girl]

Wizard of Oz drank Jim Simmons' kool aid.

[MLG]

IMHO, it's a matter of percentages.

I have lived in the metropolitan Detroit area and worked in Detroit for the past 30 years or more. I have never been mugged, assalted or broken into. I have never been in a store, gas station, bank or any other facility that was being held up while I was there. Actually, this same scenario takes place millions of times to people everyday. They go to work, lunch, movies etc without incident every day and many of them don't even own a gun but yet they feel quite safe and happy. (Good for them!)

Now let me see if I can make my point.

Fill in the numbers yourself, but try to be fair.

How many people Open Carry in the United States, excluding the ones that get paid to do so?

How many people conceal carry in the United States, excluding the ones that get paid to do so?

How many people do not carry at all?

I'd have to think that the Highest number will be the ones that don't carry at all, followed by Concealed and then the ones that are Open Carry.

I believe the percentage of people Open Carrying is quite a small percentage of the entire population and when you proprtionately distribute the likely hood of someone that is open carrying being in the middle of something when SHTF have been quite small, as well.

If the numbers were adjusted further for the locations where people Open Carry vs where the most crime is commited that percentage would shrink even further.... How many open carry in Detroit, New Orleans, New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc. etc. etc.

I sincerly believe that the number of people that open carry shrinks exponentially as you get closer to a major crime center such as Detroit, New Orleans, New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc. etc. etc.

I do not believe the number of people open carrying in dangerous areas are high enough to have any statistal impact on crime in a given area. I don't believe there are any incidents to supply to the open carry proponents because the low percentages of exposure to crimes being committed where someone is open carrying.

I don't buy the argument that "because it hasn't happened that it won't or isn't a concern"... If I did, I wouldn't be Concealed Carrying. After all, I've never been a victim so I shouldn't worry , right?

I'm curious about something. I've heard a number of stories of CCers that have thwarted crimes but I'm kind of curious if there are many (any) stories on the OC side of things. Does the number of OC Interventions rival number the CC Interventions?

[Venator12]

IMHO, it's a matter of percentages.


I'm curious about something. I've heard a number of stories of CCers that have thwarted crimes but I'm kind of curious if there are many (any) stories on the OC side of things. Does the number of OC Interventions rival number the CC Interventions?

The problem with OC and any statistics of a crime being deterred is difficult for the following reason. It's dark and I'm walking down a street and I'm OCing. I walk past two guys standing on the corner. I don't know if they mean me harm or not. I do know they saw my gun and I walk by unmolested. I don't know if my OCing stopped a potential mugging. It's hard to quantify crimes that were thwarted be the mear presence of my gun.

I have heard of a few stories where people said they were approached by suspicious people in an aggressive manner and when they saw the OCed gun they left in a hurry.

One case was in Saginaw where one of our female members was getting gas at a station at night. She had her kids in the car and a man approached and asked for money, she refused and he started getting more aggressive and wanted her purse. She turned to put the nozzle back in the pump and that's when he saw the gun. He asked her if she was a cop and was he in trouble? She said no she wasn't a cop but if he didn't leave he would be in big trouble. She related that he turned and ran away.

These are typical of the stories people relate when they talk about OCing possibly preventing a crime. All I can say is that we hear a lot of stories like this, but have never heard of the "shot first" myth ever happing. Again, as we have said, is this a possibility, yes, just not a high one.

[Jim Simmons]

Wizard of Oz drank Jim Simmons' kool aid.

:shocked:

I have kool aid?
:etoh:

How, er . . . cool is that?

Slainte Mhath! :cheers:

[MLG]

The problem with OC and any statistics of a crime being deterred is difficult for the following reason. It's dark and I'm walking down a street and I'm OCing. I walk past two guys standing on the corner. I don't know if they mean me harm or not. I do know they saw my gun and I walk by unmolested. I don't know if my OCing stopped a potential mugging. It's hard to quantify crimes that were thwarted be the mear presence of my gun.
I've had the same experience on a couple of occaisions, been walking with my wife at night when coming from a show or game or whatever and seen the same thing happen. For whatever reason, the threat is preempted by maybe a passing car, a thread of doubt/fear running through the perps mind. Or maybe a misread on my skeptical nature. All I know is that I am extremely grateful that things didn't escalate.

I have heard of a few stories where people said they were approached by suspicious people in an aggressive manner and when they saw the OCed gun they left in a hurry.

One case was in Saginaw where one of our female members was getting gas at a station at night. She had her kids in the car and a man approached and asked for money, she refused and he started getting more aggressive and wanted her purse. She turned to put the nozzle back in the pump and that's when he saw the gun. He asked her if she was a cop and was he in trouble? She said no she wasn't a cop but if he didn't leave he would be in big trouble. She related that he turned and ran away.

I read a very similar story by Chris Bird (I think) about a woman at a Gas Station and a couple young guys that took a liking to her car and began to make a move to possibly take it from her. At that point, she asked them if they were "bullet proof". When they asked her if she were armed (she wasn't open carrying) she replied "they would find out soon enough if they didn't leave. Evidently, if the story is correct, they didn't want to take a chance, they left her alone.

Also, how many times have we heard that the "racking" of a pump shotgun is a pretty strong deterent to a would be in home invader?

IOW, I agree that sometimes even the hint that you are armed is enough to deter people. Wouldn't OCing a replica type gun would accomplish the same thing to a less determined individual? BTW, this statement is not meant to be disrespectful or demeaning but just a personal thought. :scratch:

These are typical of the stories people relate when they talk about OCing possibly preventing a crime. All I can say is that we hear a lot of stories like this, but have never heard of the "shot first" myth ever happing. Again, as we have said, is this a possibility, yes, just not a high one.

"...not a high possibility" (should this be changed to probability?) I don't know how you can say this with so much confidence without data to support the statement. There just have not been adequate data or case studies to support your claim that it's a low possibility. With all due respect, my first post actually goes towards the wording "first shot myth". The same wording is used for CCers that wear the 5.11 type gear (especially the vests). I don't know if it's true or not because the data is not available to support the statement either way.

I do not believe that there are enough people that OC for the word "myth" to apply.

I think that the OC movement is still in it's infancy stage with only anecdotal evidence to support wheter or not OC people will be shot first. Thankfully, there haven't been many (any?) cases the I've read or heard of that involved violent encounters in which a person OCing was present. So, by default, the incidental data is not available because of the low number of cases in which a OC person was involved does not even come close to being a viable sample. But, IMO, to use the word "myth" is incorrect and should be changed to undefined or maybe unproven.

[mastiff]

In the above post of the woman and the perp wanting her stuff when she had the fuel pump noozle in her hand that makes a very good weapon, theres nothing better than a little gas in your eyes:hot: PS anybody got a lighter

[Venator12]

[COLOR="Blue
I think that the OC movement is still in it's infancy stage with only anecdotal evidence to support wheter or not OC people will be shot first. Thankfully, there haven't been many (any?) cases the I've read or heard of that involved violent encounters in which a person OCing was present. So, by default, the incidental data is not available because of the low number of cases in which a OC person was involved does not even come close to being a viable sample. But, IMO, to use the word "myth" is incorrect and should be changed to undefined or maybe unproven.

[/COLOR]
Granted the OC population is small, but not really in it's infancy nation-wide. There are a few states where people OC with much more frequency, and have been for years, it's just fairly new in Michigan. I stand by my opinion that the shot first is a MYTH, same with the tactical jacket or the fanny pack myth. There just is no evidence that anyone of these case has had a "shot first" incident happen to them because they were OCing or wearing the jacket/vest or fanny pack. I believe it is a movie/TV mentality. Similar to blowing up gas tanks in cars when shot by a bullet, makes good entertainment but the probability is just as small.

[Done Deal]

I stand by my opinion that the shot first is a MYTH, same with the tactical jacket or the fanny pack myth.

There just is no evidence that anyone of these case has had a "shot first" incident happen to them because they were OCing or wearing the jacket/vest or fanny pack.

I believe it is a movie/TV mentality.


Ok....and I stand by my opinion that if a BG is sticking a place up and two people happen up....one OCing and the other not.....which guy do you think that the BG will cap first?

Common sense says that most anybody would take out the greatest threat first and....somebody with a gun on their hip is a threat to anybody committing a rape/robbery/murder....

But thats ok, you go right ahead and be that guy....I will cover ya. Film at 11

[MLG]

Ok....and I stand by my opinion that if a BG is sticking a place up and two people happen up....one OCing and the other not.....which guy do you think that the BG will cap first?

Common sense says that most anybody would take out the greatest threat first and....somebody with a gun on their hip is a threat to anybody committing a rape/robbery/murder....

But thats ok, you go right ahead and be that guy....I will cover ya. Film at 11

Sometimes Common Sense just aint to common.

Does anyone for one minute believe that those guys in LA during the big shoot out with police would have been real concerned about a guy open carrying for more than a millisecond? Or how about the latest nut case that went awry down in Alabama? Maybe, but don't worry, the possibility of someone open carrying getting shot first is low... RIGHT? I believe the guy that was OCing would have been the first meat through the grinder is a much more likly scenario,

I'd still like to see some instances that OCers have actually been baptized by fire.

BTW, this is just friendly banter.... I would stand by any OCer in the fight to keep it as our right but just don't believe it's all that it's presented to be.

[Done Deal]

Sometimes Common Sense just aint to common.

.

Ain't that the truth????

[Venator12]

Sometimes Common Sense just aint to common.

Does anyone for one minute believe that those guys in LA during the big shoot out with police would have been real concerned about a guy open carrying for more than a millisecond? Or how about the latest nut case that went awry down in Alabama? Maybe, but don't worry, the possibility of someone open carrying getting shot first is low... RIGHT? I believe the guy that was OCing would have been the first meat through the grinder is a much more likly scenario,

I'd still like to see some instances that OCers have actually been baptized by fire.

BTW, this is just friendly banter.... I would stand by any OCer in the fight to keep it as our right but just don't believe it's all that it's presented to be.

Not sure if this example works. Many people were shot at in the LA incident..LEO's. pedestrians, etc. I don't think in your example it would have mattered if you were OC, CC, or had a tank, if they saw you they shot at you. All I'm saying is the shot first MYTH has not stood up.

[Venator12]

Sometimes Common Sense just aint to common.



On common sense: Randy Wayne White wrote in his novel Captiva “It is a character standard from folklore in which “good old common sense” is an essential bedrock ingredient. But too often “common sense” is a safe harbor of ignorance and an excuse for intellectual laziness. They don’t need the facts because they already know the truth—their common sense has spared them the effort of investigation or thought.

[CyborgWarrior]

Platt and Matix (FBI/Miami shootout bad guys) would visit informal ranges (think Lapeer pit) and take guns from people shooting. Thats how they acquired their little arsenal. Of course they were bonafide badasses.

You may be carrying open, but you can't be "on" all the time.

[Knimrod]

While I've mentioned this before, the "common sense" or "logic" standard is somewhat dictated by the circumstances..

It would logical for a criminal who may be casually interested in robbing a convenience store for some pocket money, to be discouraged by observing a patron with an exposed firearm..

However, it is also logical that a criminal who is bent on robbing the convenience store even if it involves killing someone, to simply take out (shoot) the person with an exposed firearm as he represents the first and probably greatest obstacle to a successful robbery (or whatever crime he is bent on committing).

And using those examples as baselines for a rational argument, you could extrapolate that a would-be killer would likely shoot any person observed to be armed first whereas a person with a concealed firearm may have the benefit of being able to observe and react using the tactical advantage of just being one in a crowd.

[Done Deal]

While I've mentioned this before, the "common sense" or "logic" standard is somewhat dictated by the circumstances..

It would logical for a criminal who may be casually interested in robbing a convenience store for some pocket money, to be discouraged by observing a patron with an exposed firearm..

However, it is also logical that a criminal who is bent on robbing the convenience store even if it involves killing someone, to simply take out (shoot) the person with an exposed firearm as he represents the first and probably greatest obstacle to a successful robbery (or whatever crime he is bent on committing).

And using those examples as baselines for a rational argument, you could extrapolate that a would-be killer would likely shoot any person observed to be armed first whereas a person with a concealed firearm may have the benefit of being able to observe and react using the tactical advantage of just being one in a crowd.

Wait...that is a common sense arguement that just isn't sinking in in some circles....


Common sense also tells me that needlessly becoming a target can create a situation where ....again just common sense talking....getting shot might hurt.

So....common sense tells me that I really do want to avoid becoming that target if I don't want to risk getting perforated.

I know what it is like to be looking down the barrel and when somebody has the drop....it ain't necessarily the best time to be deemed a threat, ya know? So Randy Wayne White, stick that philosophy in your pipe and smoke it....

[MLG]

If I'm ever in a bad place at a bad time, I believe the possibility of of an OCer being there is very low but the chances of having a fellow CC is considerably higher.

I have not seen anyone open carry except at the Berkley Coffee shop get together a few months ago. However, in the same time frame I'm positive that I have been exposed to many that are CC.

I hold to my position that the OC movement is still too small to have any significant data to substantiate the "myth of first shot" because I don't think there are cases that can be sited that there were any shootings involving an OC. If there were, I'm sure it would have been voiced and held up for all to see by now.

The way my logic works is the most obvious threat is eliminated first. In cases of home invasions or assalts resulting in the homicide of husband and wife (or boyfriend - girfriend) in nearly every case, the guy is taken out first because they are the larger threat.

More power to ya if you believe differently, but your logic is very hard for me to grasp. I believe you are going on a dangerous untested theory and may be leading others down the same dangerous road. I am trying to see the other side of the debate but just can't seem to bend my mind that much.... Please pass the kool aid?