OC at a public school if you have a MI CPL?

[Thanis]

I'm a CPL holder. I was having a discussion with a few people and I was informed that any CPL holder (even non-law enforcement) can open-carry a pistol at a school. I'm not sure this is factual.

I was told MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity and there are no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter.

Part of 750-234d states that a CPL holder can open-carry a pistol in a pistol-free zone. However, I was then told that this is misleading, because this legal conversion from concealed pistol to open-carry only applied to certain types of peace-officers who can't conceal carry without a CPL. I was told for non-peace officers, the MI CPL (per 28.425) allows the the "authorized conduct" to "carry a pistol concealed." Once a non-peace office transitions to open-carry, the CPL no longer applies.

Contrary to what I understood, I have been told that the MI State Police has stated, "...Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones."

I have tried to contact the MSP via e-mail, and have not heard back. Thoughts?

PS - Ya, my first post is a late night post. I hope my post does not come off crazy sounding. I just feel better when I carry. Sometimes after school hours I'll take a walk with my nieces and nephews to a school playground. I just leave the firearm at home, but would rather take the firearm with me and convert to open-carry while at the playground.

[Garbo]

Well I'm not a lawyer so I cant quickly quote specific laws but what they are getting at is tat in the Mi firearm laws at the end of the gun free zones listed CPL holdrs are exempted from the etire list. So now you flip over to CPL holders no carry zones and before each item listed it say that you may not carry a CONCIELED PISTOL leaving that open to the interpritation that you may OC since the standard set of rules exemots you and the CPL holder laws only say you cant carry concieled.

Now schools tho I do believe are covered by federal laws but I'm not 100% sure on the specifics on that.

I had a scary conversation with a lets say higher up in a local PD. Someone that in the past two years we've discussed thing like open carry and he indicated that its brandishing blah blah. Well recently I guess this PD has been edumacating their people and he concieded to me thats its legal now. But then we were talking further and somehow he spoke about CEZ's and he mentioned banks be no carry for all. His arguement was that since banks are FDIC insured thats a federal inst. Oye, so without the benefit of having a copy of the laws I pointed out some obvious example like the guy in Canton that just recieved the key to the city for stopping a bank robbery where the guy said he had a bomb strapped to him.

Anyway point being it know the laws but understand that many leo's dont and if you choose to test a law like this expect to e at the very least harrassed.

There have been posts out here from the MSP regarding communications about OC. Maybe Mr Linkge can help there and maybe Jims opinion on the matter should be posted too

[Done Deal]

PS - Ya, my first post is a late night post. I hope my post does not come off crazy sounding. I just feel better when I carry. Sometimes after school hours I'll take a walk with my nieces and nephews to a school playground. I just leave the firearm at home, but would rather take the firearm with me and convert to open-carry while at the playground.



Something tells me that if you do that often enough....eventually, you are going to get your fifteen minutes of fame.


9-11 please state your emergency

There is a man with a gun approaching kids on a playground

Please provide a location

It is at the elementary school playground on easy street

Officers will be responding.....

[dougwg]

As far as Federal law... If you have a CPL it seems to be legal to carry on school grounds.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

[zigziggityzoo]

Federal law allows it.
State law allows it.

Cops aren't going to like it.
Prosecuting attorneys aren't going to like it.

The media will LOVE IT.

You'll get off scot-free. And new legislation will probably be considered.

All this, considering you get 911 called on you for doing it.

I've gone to my sister's musical performance while OCing, shook hands with the principal even. No issues. Most sheeple don't notice.

[BWHaas]

hmmmmm, good topic. It will be interesting to see what the legal's think about it.

[Kimberguy1371]

Welcome to MGO Thanis!!! Glad to have you here.:welcome: :tapdance:

[Thanis]

Welcome to MGO Thanis!!! Glad to have you here.:welcome: :tapdance:

Hi Kimberguy.

Figured I should join a MI specific forum. Thanks for the welcome :)

[Thanis]

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Deasy <DeasyT@michigan.gov>
To: ----------
Sent: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 12:21 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: Contact MSP Webmaster (ContentID - 22600)


Mr. ----------,

Michigan pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders who are openly carrying
their pistol. However, schools are also federal firearms free zones. Although
the federal statute is partially driven by state law, we are not aware of any
court cases analyzing the interplay between Michigan and federal law as it
relates to school zones. So, our recommendation is that CPL holders avoid
carrying a pistol on school property.

Sincerely,



Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441


>>> MSP_Webmaster 3/24/2009 8:58 AM >>>
Following is an email received by the MSP_Webmaster.


>>> <ContactMSP@michigan.gov> 3/24/2009 1:47 AM >>>
f01name: ----------
f02address: ----------
f03city: ----------
f04state: MI
f05zip: ----------
f06phone: ----------
f07email: ----------
f07question: Hope you can help.

I'm a CPL holder. I was having a discussion with a few people and I was
informed that a non-law enforcement CPL holder can open-carry a pistol at a
school. I'm not sure this is factual and ask that you please clarify.

I was told MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity and there are no
other additional relevant laws regarding this matter.

I was told the following was clarified by Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State
Police Executive Resource Section, who stated, "...Non-CPL pistol free zones do
not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders
carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol
in Michigan's pistol free zones."

I was also told Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District clarified it is
legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed
CPL holder.

Thank you for looking into the issue.
submit: SUBMIT

[Thanis]

Still a little confused (as it is not 100% clear what is legal / illegal). Sounds to me like the answer is still no (ok by MI law but not federal), even if a CPL holder, you should not carry at a school, even if open carry.

Am I wrong?

[zigziggityzoo]

Still a little confused (as it is not 100% clear what is legal / illegal). Sounds to me like the answer is still no (ok by MI law but not federal), even if a CPL holder, you should not carry at a school, even if open carry.

Am I wrong?

Sort of. Federal law states:

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school
zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify
that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the
individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining
access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school
authorities.

This is the part he's talking about.

What he's stating is that this statue has yet to have case law backing it. As in, the law very well may exempt permit holders from carrying in a school zone, but there's not yet been a case in which this law has been tested.

The way I read both laws, It would seem that it is perfectly legal to openly carry a firearm in a school zone, as both state and federal laws are satisfied.

A prosecutor might very well see differently than me. A jury would decide.

[cltz]

Well that is scary that the PD would think that FDIC means a bank is a Federal building. Most people don't even realize that the Federal Reserve is not Federal either, not anymore Federal than Federal Express. This is a topic for another discussion.


I had a scary conversation with a lets say higher up in a local PD. Someone that in the past two years we've discussed thing like open carry and he indicated that its brandishing blah blah. Well recently I guess this PD has been edumacating their people and he concieded to me thats its legal now. But then we were talking further and somehow he spoke about CEZ's and he mentioned banks be no carry for all. His arguement was that since banks are FDIC insured thats a federal inst. Oye, so without the benefit of having a copy of the laws I pointed out some obvious example like the guy in Canton that just recieved the key to the city for stopping a bank robbery where the guy said he had a bomb strapped to him.

Anyway point being it know the laws but understand that many leo's dont and if you choose to test a law like this expect to e at the very least harrassed.

There have been posts out here from the MSP regarding communications about OC. Maybe Mr Linkge can help there and maybe Jims opinion on the matter should be posted too

[JohnJak]

Something tells me that if you do that often enough....eventually, you are going to get your fifteen minutes of fame.


9-11 please state your emergency

There is a man with a gun approaching kids on a playground

Please provide a location

It is at the elementary school playground on easy street

Officers will be responding.....
+1

[Jim Simmons]

+2.

And before you know it, the antis will have introduced a bill in the Legislature to clarify that particular "loophole" doesn't exist.

The fact that this has now been discussed on an open message board may well have the same effect.

[Venator12]

+2.

And before you know it, the antis will have introduced a bill in the Legislature to clarify that particular "loophole" doesn't exist.

The fact that this has now been discussed on an open message board may well have the same effect.
And if they clarify it what have you lost, you won't be doing it anyway so it's already lost.

That's like the anti-OC argument we heard a while back. Don't OC because they will make a law against it. WHAT! If you never exercise the right, what have you lost?

Same with your argument...Don't OC at schools because if you do we may lose something we never do anyway.

[zigziggityzoo]

And if they clarify it what have you lost, you won't be doing it anyway so it's already lost.

That's like the anti-OC argument we heard a while back. Don't OC because they will may a law against it. WHAT! If you never exercise the right, what have you lost?

Same with your argument...Don't OC at schools because if you do we may lose something we never do anyway.

:yeahthat:

[dougwg]

Trading freedom for security, Benjamin Franklin spoke of this.

It saddens me every time I see it.

[Jim Simmons]

This has nothing to do with the security/freedom balance. This has to do with remaining quiet about this until and unless the time arrives that it's absolutely essential.

[Batman II]

Too bad laws are written in hieroglyphics, and only the ancient Egyptians can interpret them. Maybe if guns were openly allowed on school grounds, colleges, banks, hospitals, etc., there would have been a lot fewer people killed by these loonies of late, randomly killing others. Maybe someone (like me for example) would have tried to stop the massacre. My bank told me this morning that I could carry there as long as I had my CPL. The Mall in town told me they don't want anyone carrying a weapon, so I asked the security guy what he would do if a drugged out boyfriend came in and decided to dust off his girlfriend working at Kohl's, and maybe a few others along the way? He said "I would run". I said I would too, only toward the problem, not away from it. I was asked to leave Best Buy by the police after someone noticed that I was carrying concealed. I have a large gun because I have large hands, small just doesn't cut it! So that's when the Mall cop got involved. So let's post signs in businesses now saying "No Guns Allowed" We want criminals to feel free and safe from law abiding citizens carrying a weapon. Thanks Jackson Crossing, you made me feel safer!

[Jim Simmons]

Actually, they're written in Gaelic now. And since I'm mostly Irish and Scottish, they gave me the secret decoder ring. :book:

Some malls are like that. So I say that gun owners simply take there business . . . elsewhere. I know I do.

[_DK_]

This topic has my curiosity...

I walk my dogs at night and sometimes take my kids to the park, well its not a park, its the kindergarten playground. I have my CPL. I understand Concealed means concealed... but say I do something that causes my gun to "print" and another parent notices and calls 911 on me. There is usually other parents/children there even as late as 10-11pm in the summer; As well as undesirables that hang out. I have called the local PD before on undesirables at the school and they generally just come and run them off.

[Jim Simmons]

You might have a problem if you're caught carrying on school property -- even if it is after hours, and even if it's just the playground.

[Kimberguy1371]

Too bad laws are written in hieroglyphics, and only the ancient Egyptians can interpret them. Maybe if guns were openly allowed on school grounds, colleges, banks, hospitals, etc., there would have been a lot fewer people killed by these loonies of late, randomly killing others. Maybe someone (like me for example) would have tried to stop the massacre. My bank told me this morning that I could carry there as long as I had my CPL. The Mall in town told me they don't want anyone carrying a weapon, so I asked the security guy what he would do if a drugged out boyfriend came in and decided to dust off his girlfriend working at Kohl's, and maybe a few others along the way? He said "I would run". I said I would too, only toward the problem, not away from it. I was asked to leave Best Buy by the police after someone noticed that I was carrying concealed. I have a large gun because I have large hands, small just doesn't cut it! So that's when the Mall cop got involved. So let's post signs in businesses now saying "No Guns Allowed" We want criminals to feel free and safe from law abiding citizens carrying a weapon. Thanks Jackson Crossing, you made me feel safer!

Welcome Batman!!!:welcome: good to see you here my friend.

[Super Trucker]

Too bad laws are written in hieroglyphics, and only the ancient Egyptians can interpret them. Maybe if guns were openly allowed on school grounds, colleges, banks, hospitals, etc., there would have been a lot fewer people killed by these loonies of late, randomly killing others. Maybe someone (like me for example) would have tried to stop the massacre. My bank told me this morning that I could carry there as long as I had my CPL. The Mall in town told me they don't want anyone carrying a weapon, so I asked the security guy what he would do if a drugged out boyfriend came in and decided to dust off his girlfriend working at Kohl's, and maybe a few others along the way? He said "I would run". I said I would too, only toward the problem, not away from it. I was asked to leave Best Buy by the police after someone noticed that I was carrying concealed. I have a large gun because I have large hands, small just doesn't cut it! So that's when the Mall cop got involved. So let's post signs in businesses now saying "No Guns Allowed" We want criminals to feel free and safe from law abiding citizens carrying a weapon. Thanks Jackson Crossing, you made me feel safer!

When you got home did you call Best Buy's corporate office? Best Buy policy is to follow the state law, you did nothing illegal (if you have a CPL) so why not prove to the manager he is wrong and not following policy?