Women and OC

[kc8opc]

I am considering OC, and I was wondering if many other women OC.
What have your experiences been?

And guys, what about OC do I need to know in general?

Thanks!

Mods: please move this to OC if it's more appropriate there.

[Done Deal]

I think you are more likely to hear from women right here where you created the post.

If that fails to happen....well, we can always move it over to the OC forum where you are bound to get alot of input from the opposite sex. On that note, I know plenty of women who carry but none of them openly.

[kc8opc]

Thanks, Done Deal!
We'll give it a shot here first....
So anything, ladies?

[KayL]

I've been tempted, but no. I prefer to keep my guns concealed. Once, after a match I headed for the hardware store and still had my mag carriers, holster/gun on. ALMOST went in that way, but decided the guys would probably all dive for the ditch if they saw me like that.

[appliancebrad]

I kid my wife about it because she pocket carries her P3AT. Every once in a while the grip will stick up out of her pocket. She's got a nice leather OWB holster for it but hasn't ventured out without a cover garment......yet.

[kc8opc]

But KayL, that seems indeed to be the question....
If I OC'd, would people react differently than if a man OC'd?
In reality, am I actually less threatening, but more questionable?

[KayL]

I just don't want to be the subject of the "(Wo)Man with Gun" call to the cops when some dipstick has a hysi-fit. The places I go routinely are too urban/suburban for me to feel comfortable oc'ing.

Are you more threatening? Doubtful. But it's all in the mind of the beholder. And only God knows what the general public beholds.

[dougwg]

You meet the nicest people OC'ing.

[KayL]

You meet the nicest people OC'ing.
Oh, I thought that was on a Honda...

Aw, Doug. How about if I just TELL everyone I'm carrying. Isn't that almost as good as oc'ing??

[kc8opc]

Just wondering what kind of support women are getting from the guys on this.....
I have observed several men OC, but I feel that maybe if I was grocery shopping with the kids, all kinds of he!! would break loose.

It seems a shame that I must consider the impact of being handcuffed (however improperly) in front of my kids to utilize my right to OC.
Please don't tell me it couldn't happen, it could.
I also understand that possibly nothing detrimental would occur.

What encouragement from the Firearms community do we need to strengthen women in OC? (Or in shooting, hunting, CPL, IDPA, NRA or any other?)

BTW, I view my CPL as a Driver's License of sorts....
Just because I have a Driver's License, I have not given up my right to walk; therefore with a CPL I will not consider OC a by-gone. (But yes, KayL, tactical advantage must be considered.)

Your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.

[Leader]

Just wondering what kind of support women are getting from the guys on this.....
I have observed several men OC, but I feel that maybe if I was grocery shopping with the kids, all kinds of he!! would break loose.

It seems a shame that I must consider the impact of being handcuffed (however improperly) in front of my kids to utilize my right to OC.
Please don't tell me it couldn't happen, it could.
I also understand that possibly nothing detrimental would occur.

What encouragement from the Firearms community do we need to strengthen women in OC? (Or in shooting, hunting, CPL, IDPA, NRA or any other?)

BTW, I view my CPL as a Driver's License of sorts....
Just because I have a Driver's License, I have not given up my right to walk; therefore with a CPL I will not consider OC a by-gone. (But yes, KayL, tactical advantage must be considered.)

Your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.

As far as support from the guys, even the "Guys" here don't get support for OC.
If you open carry to the grocery store, you'll find that most people just don't see it. You won't have that GWAG (Girl With A Gun) call and no kids are going to go screaming to their mothers that have passed out at the sight of a gun.
Most of the arguement against OC seems to be that a stranger with no reason to do so will call the police and lie to them about your actions.
While it IS possable, we find that it just doesn't happen.
For some REAL LIFE examples of how it is, check out the information available here ( http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/ )

BTW.. Any time you OC around me, you have my full support. The more people see it, the more it will be accepted.

[kc8opc]

Applause for Leader!

Thanks, I was wondering the same thing about support for guys OC too.

If the right we were discussing was free speech, well darn it:
WE WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to discuss it! But I guarantee you there would be mass protests and it wouldn't be just conservatives!

I also suggest that many a Liberal (yes, and Conservative) mouth has done greater damage than any of my guns. Let's try to get them registered, eh?

[who dat]

Oh, I thought that was on a Honda...

Aw, Doug. How about if I just TELL everyone I'm carrying. Isn't that almost as good as oc'ing??
Sure, just walk into that hardware store and yell, "I have a gun!!" That'll work.:whistle:

Welcome back...it's been awhile.

[joe_robi]

if i seen a woman ocing in the grocery store i would ask her to marry me!! lol
no but seriously, women that carry guns are like viagra.........

[Done Deal]

if i seen a woman ocing in the grocery store i would ask her to marry me!! lol
no but seriously, women that carry guns are like viagra.........

Joe: It must really suck to be needing viagra in your twenties. What are you gonna do when you grow old?

[joe_robi]

Joe: It must really suck to be needing viagra in your twenties. What are you gonna do when you grow old?

i dont need it! i just said it to compare .

[DetroitBiker]

I have to agree with joe on this one, women that pack heat appear sexy to me, (HeHe) And if there ridin a motorcycle while OC'ing. Oh Yeah! :grin:

[Kimberguy1371]

You will have my support 110%!!! I would check out Michigan Open Carry (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/) and post a thread there, and ask. I actually do not know of any woman OCing in MI at the time. I'm sure there are, I just haven't seen it.

as far as suggestions, LEARN AND KNOW THE LAWS!!!! pick peoples brains on MOC, read read and re-read everything you can. Understand it. I like, it, and except for the few people who want to cause trouble because the feel by law abiding citizens, you do in fact meet the nicest people when you OC.

[Leader]

As involved as you are Kimberguy, I'm surprised you haven't met some of the OC girls at Michigan Open Carry (MOC) .
A couple are posting about their experiences quite regularly now.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/

[JKGirl]

I would def open carry ....if it were not for the fact that people that don't know the law would cause problems. I am close to getting my CPL and wonder how being a woman "concealable" the pistol will be?? I have a M&Pc and its still "big"on my hip.... I am not going to start wearing baggy clothes....so I wonder if even carrying "concealed"for some women is almost the same as open carry....

[kc8opc]

JKgirl, carrying appendix is helpful in the summer. Crossdraw appendix sometimes works depending on the clothing style.

I am trying to talk my husband into getting behind the idea. He seems to think I'd be making a target of myself. Er, and him, he doesn't carry yet. (He will when he gets out of the sandbox.)
I think I'd be utilizing a right, that, if more women got into, guys OC would be more acceptable.
I'd rather there be a ton of guys out there OC, then I could blend. But as that is not the case currently, do we ladies get folks used to seeing OC so the guys can?

[dougwg]

Oh, I thought that was on a Honda...

Aw, Doug. How about if I just TELL everyone I'm carrying. Isn't that almost as good as oc'ing??

Kay, I'm sure everyone can tell you pack heat. All they have to do is look for the powder burns on your hands and the callous on your trigger finger. :thup:

Kay = NOT A VICTIM!

[kc8opc]

I just have to say thanks for all those participating, I was afraid the moss would grow on this thread!

[KayL]

Kay, I'm sure everyone can tell you pack heat. All they have to do is look for the powder burns on your hands and the callous on your trigger finger. :thup:
Kay = NOT A VICTIM!
You got it, baby. IDPA on Saturday, and instructing 7+ fun ROTC students on Sunday (2 were young women). We were BAD both days.

I OC'd both days! Okay, confessional... I was at the range. ha.

Now, today at work - a CEZ - I took a knife for a solo walk.

[kc8opc]

Sounds like a world of fun in one weekend, totally jealous. :whacko:

So how does a girl find a range friend like you, KayL?! I have been looking for years, you must be one of a kind!

Anyone ever accidentally OC?

[KayL]

So how does a girl find a range friend like you, KayL?! I have been looking for years, you must be one of a kind!
Just ask! There must be others out your way. Bring up guns in conversations with people in unlikely situations. You'll be surprised.

[kc8opc]

KayL, So far just horrified silence. :getsum2:

We all have young kids, and most won't even consider a toy gun, much less training them properly.

My 5 y.o. was playing, and from 2 rooms away I hear ,"watch your muzzle! Downrange!" I died, :heart: no one had a clue what that meant! What a great kid!:clap:

[Kimberguy1371]

...I hear ,"watch your muzzle! Downrange!" I died, :heart:


That is freakin' awesome!!!!!:salute:

[KayL]

KayL, So far just horrified silence. :getsum2:
That's strange because you're on the more 'conservative' side of the state.

[kc8opc]

Unfortunately, in my circles, those that profess to enjoy firearms are perceived as bloodthirsty and anxious to inflict injury on a fellow human.

I am at a loss to communicate to them that the fact that I am not placing on others the responsibility of protecting me does not mean that I think all others ought to carry -or adore- things that go "boom!" Some will never, ought never, not gonna.

I don't know how to explain that range fun and scenario training are 2 different things; that deadly force is deadly serious, no jokes; and that guns aren't scary, they're a tool to preserve what is most important to me in the whole world -my family.

My 5 y.o. saw a lady -and her family members- on the news that had badly beaten. He was very upset, and wanted to know why she didn't use her weapons, and why no one used theirs to help her.

Honestly, how could I ignore that?
This is why I am beginning to get the feeling that women's OC may be a tipping point of sorts, that together we are stronger than the sum of our parts.

[Kimberguy1371]

That's strange because you're on the more 'conservative' side of the state.

You must not know Holland very well.... to many Mexicans!(most of which are my family) many of them are gang bangers. at least that is how i know Holland, tulips wood shoes, mexi-gangs and windmills.

[kc8opc]

You must not know Holland very well.... to many Mexicans!(most of which are my family) many of them are gang bangers. at least that is how i know Holland, tulips wood shoes, mexi-gangs and windmills.
Sadly, you are correct. (Ditto on my family) -Which would cause me to hope for more cohorts! In time, maybe.

[Kimberguy1371]

Sadly, you are correct. (Ditto on my family) -Which would cause me to hope for more cohorts! In time, maybe.

Are you a Mexi??? any relation to the Longoria, Compos, and I think Chavez familys? And I have both a 2nd cousin and an uncle Hector. :razz:

[KayL]

I know a guy on that end that teaches CPL to entire classes of Hispanics, some with limited English language skills.



edit typo

[kc8opc]

Are you a Mexi??? any relation to the Longoria, Compos, and I think Chavez familys? And I have both a 2nd cousin and an uncle Hector. :razz:
:rofl: No, not related that I know of, but in truth I think we're all related in one way or another!
Actually I married in, Spanish/Mexican.

[wildman80]

My wife has been thinking of open carry for the summer.

She does not like to wear baggy things and with her small stature she has a hard time with hiding the fact she is packing.

I am not sure how people will react but I will be behind her 100% with what ever she decides.

I my self have a hard time with the summer carry also but I would rather print a little then OC.

[kc8opc]

I finally OC'd.

However I can honestly say I have NEVER been that fast at the grocery store before........
OR had that wonderful of service at WalMart!

Everyone was all smiles and helpful, got a few gang-bangers going sideways, and spiked my blood pressure.

I am not sure OC is for me, and I imagine it gets easier (Does it?), but I did it.

Anyone else going to try OC?
8)

[who dat]

I finally OC'd.

However I can honestly say I have NEVER been that fast at the grocery store before........
OR had that wonderful of service at WalMart!

Everyone was all smiles and helpful, got a few gang-bangers going sideways, and spiked my blood pressure.

I am not sure OC is for me, and I imagine it gets easier (Does it?), but I did it.

Anyone else going to try OC?
8)I've heard Holland has some pretty archaic, illegal gun laws on the books. Have you looked into that yet? Are they OK with OC? Or do we need to send in Doug and Venator?

[kc8opc]

I've heard Holland has some pretty archaic, illegal gun laws on the books. Have you looked into that yet? Are they OK with OC? Or do we need to send in Doug and Venator?

I haven't run across that yet, and correct me if I'm wrong, but State law trumps city/ county law. (Yeah, spouting law at the "chick with a gun" call will be useless.)

Now I'm all nervous, though. Any more info out there? Queries to local sources simply highlights a stunning lack of education.

[who dat]

I haven't run across that yet, and correct me if I'm wrong, but State law trumps city/ county law. (Yeah, spouting law at the "chick with a gun" call will be useless.)

Now I'm all nervous, though. Any more info out there? Queries to local sources simply highlights a stunning lack of education.
State law definitely trumps city law, but they don't always believe it. In Grand Haven last year one of our own got slammed into a wall and relieved of his pistol. Spent some time in jail, and now has a suit filed against the city. He'll probably win, but it will be time consuming and costly.

I would just be preemptive and check with a few of the locals if you can. It would be better if the chief was on your side or at least knew you knew what you were talking about before getting into a crapstorm.

[kc8opc]

State law definitely trumps city law, but they don't always believe it. In Grand Haven last year one of our own got slammed into a wall and relieved of his pistol. Spent some time in jail, and now has a suit filed against the city. He'll probably win, but it will be time consuming and costly.

I would just be preemptive and check with a few of the locals if you can. It would be better if the chief was on your side or at least knew you knew what you were talking about before getting into a crapstorm.

Kinda what I was thinking, too. But it sure is difficult to find someone to answer questions that knows the law! (Thinking about investing in a bit of legal research.)

I am still having difficulty getting my husband comfortable with me OC'ing, I hope that works out too. :bfg2:

mmm, Girl Scout cookies!

[who dat]

Kinda what I was thinking, too. But it sure is difficult to find someone to answer questions that knows the law! (Thinking about investing in a bit of legal research.)

I am still having difficulty getting my husband comfortable with me OC'ing, I hope that works out too. :bfg2:

mmm, Girl Scout cookies!
Start with your local ordinances. They should be online.

[Leader]

Kinda what I was thinking, too. But it sure is difficult to find someone to answer questions that knows the law! (Thinking about investing in a bit of legal research.)
snip.........


I think the problem is finding someone that will ADMIT to knowing the law.
Police have a history of lieing to the public about what they can do with firearms.
I find it very hard to believe that the majority of police officers in this state not only don't know the law but are willing to quote laws that don't exist.

[kc8opc]

:yeahthat:

BTW, my husband is not thrilled about OC. Any advice for this?

[who dat]

:yeahthat:

BTW, my husband is not thrilled about OC. Any advice for this?
Just get him used to it by doing it.:idea:

Here's some of Holland's laws, both of which seem illegal under preemption:

Sec. 22-4. Firearms, etc.
Unless that person is authorized to engage in an animal control activity authorized under section 22-9 of the Ordinance Code of the City of Holland, no person shall carry in any public park any gun, "BB" gun, air rifle, rifle, shotgun, revolver, pistol or other firearm of any kind or description or any device which is capable of throwing or discharging an object with sufficient force to injure or kill humans or animals.
(Code 1955, § 5-2.4; Ord. No. 1378, 11-19-03)



Sec. 20-12. Weapons.
(a) No person shall, with the intent to use the same unlawfully against the person of another, go armed with a pistol or other firearm, dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or knife having a blade over three (3) inches in length, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument.
(b) No person shall carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, metallic knuckles, slung-shot, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
(c) This section shall not apply to a person lawfully engaged in an authorized, supervised, regulated, and managed animal control activity under section 22-9 of the Ordinance Code.
(Ord. No. 751; Ord. No. 1135, 3-1-95; Ord. No. 1377, 11-19-03)

[kc8opc]

He's deployed right now, due home any day. So I'm trying not to make it a "Look what I did while you were gone" thing, but I still think it's important.

He's worried that I may be harassed or targeted, and with the kids, it likely would be serious.
Thanks for the laws. Now how do I challenge it w/o the need for handcuffs?

Oh well, if it was too easy, it might not be worthwhile.

[dougwg]

This makes those local ordinances void.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-123-1102

[who dat]

He's deployed right now, due home any day. So I'm trying not to make it a "Look what I did while you were gone" thing, but I still think it's important.

He's worried that I may be harassed or targeted, and with the kids, it likely would be serious.
Thanks for the laws. Now how do I challenge it w/o the need for handcuffs?

Oh well, if it was too easy, it might not be worthwhile.
Good question...there is no one easy answer to this problem. It all depends on how receptive the PD is to OC. I guess the first step might be to talk to the chief, tell him you understand it's legal and ask him how his department will handle it. Be sure to have MSP Legal Updates references to back you up.

[zigziggityzoo]

Glad you got your feet wet with OC.

First off, there's the general rule when interacting with the police (if they STOP you):

1) "Am I being detained?"
2) "Am I free to leave?"
3) repeat steps 1 & 2.

Of course, be polite through the whole conversation. Be aware, you DO NOT have to provide ID for merely openly carrying a firearm. You may give them your name, and the name of the city you reside in, and that is all you are required to provide (if that, can't find MCL to cite).

I have only had one interaction with the police. It was with Pittsfield Twp. police while shopping at a Target in Ann Arbor. It was mostly for the man who dialed 911 MWAG on me, to calm him down and explain I wasn't breaking the law. The officer shook my hand and told me to be safe, and that was that.

[Jim Simmons]

This makes those local ordinances void.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-123-1102

It makes some ordinances unenforceable.

I will post here my concerns regarding women and OC, because they're the same concerns I have with anyone and OC.

OC is dangerous, especially for those without a CPL, because it is very easy to slip from OC into momentary CC. And without a CPL, momentary CC is all that is necessary for you to be charged with a felony. If your arm covers a holstered pistol, or if a shirt or jacket momemtarily obscures it, you could be charged with CCW -- a five year felony. We know of one case where it's already happened to a member of the OC family.

There is also the risk regarding LEO response -- especially urban or suburban LEO response -- to anyone with a gun openly visible. It's exceedingly dangerous.

I don't recommend it for women, anymore than I recommend it for guys. And without a CPL, it's just begging for trouble. (Also . . . same as for the guys.)

[zigziggityzoo]

It makes some ordinances unenforceable.

I will post here my concerns regarding women and OC, because they're the same concerns I have with anyone and OC.

OC is dangerous, especially for those without a CPL, because it is very easy to slip from OC into momentary CC. And without a CPL, momentary CC is all that is necessary for you to be charged with a felony. If your arm covers a holstered pistol, or if a shirt or jacket momemtarily obscures it, you could be charged with CCW -- a five year felony. We know of one case where it's already happened to a member of the OC family.

There is also the risk regarding LEO response -- especially urban or suburban LEO response -- to anyone with a gun openly visible. It's exceedingly dangerous.

I don't recommend it for women, anymore than I recommend it for guys. And without a CPL, it's just begging for trouble. (Also . . . same as for the guys.)

And for those who *do* have a CPL?

[kc8opc]

:yeahthat: BTW, stated earlier, I have a CPL. And have utilized it for years without LEO contact or incident.

Okay, I am just learning, but this is important. Not sure of the correct verbiage here-
To the lawyers:
What criteria need to be in place for you to take a CC or OC case, even for research?
What recent cases have been adjudicated?
AND... do you yourself (or spouse) CC or OC?

[JKGirl]

It makes some ordinances unenforceable.

I will post here my concerns regarding women and OC, because they're the same concerns I have with anyone and OC.

OC is dangerous, especially for those without a CPL, because it is very easy to slip from OC into momentary CC. And without a CPL, momentary CC is all that is necessary for you to be charged with a felony. If your arm covers a holstered pistol, or if a shirt or jacket momemtarily obscures it, you could be charged with CCW -- a five year felony. We know of one case where it's already happened to a member of the OC family.

There is also the risk regarding LEO response -- especially urban or suburban LEO response -- to anyone with a gun openly visible. It's exceedingly dangerous.

I don't recommend it for women, anymore than I recommend it for guys. And without a CPL, it's just begging for trouble. (Also . . . same as for the guys.)

I am a newbie...what is an LEO response??

Would OC on your own property come with the same risk as OC in public?? I was going to OC in my yard just to get used to it.

[who dat]

I am a newbie...what is an LEO response??

Would OC on your own property come with the same risk as OC in public?? I was going to OC in my yard just to get used to it.
Law Enforcement Officer = LEO


Your own property is your castle. You should get no reaction, but some have drawn LEO responses to the point of illegal arrest. It would come from a neighbor's overreaction in most cases.

[JKGirl]

Law Enforcement Officer = LEO


Your own property is your castle. You should get no reaction, but some have drawn LEO responses to the point of illegal arrest. It would come from a neighbor's overreaction in most cases.

ok....so even if I draw LEO carring on my own property) I have weird neighbors)...its all legal and I would be fine because open/concealed carry is ok on my own property, correct?

[who dat]

ok....so even if I draw LEO carring on my own property) I have weird neighbors)...its all legal and I would be fine because open/concealed carry is ok on my own property, correct?
Yes. I would caution you against waving it around and screaming any threats however.

[JKGirl]

Yes. I would caution you against waving it around and screaming any threats however.

LOL No I would never do that!!!! I just want to wear it while I cut the lawn and do yard work.

[zigziggityzoo]

I am a newbie...what is an LEO response??

Would OC on your own property come with the same risk as OC in public?? I was going to OC in my yard just to get used to it.

Carry on your own property is not controlled by the state, except that, when you're carrying, you must be in possession of a LEGAL firearm.

So you can OC, CC, in your car, on your roof, in your garden, so long as all of those places are on YOUR PRIVATE PROPERTY.

-Zzz

[Graydon]

My wife has been OCing all around the Flint area for the last year or so since we got her the LCP. She is slim and fashionable so she was not about to alter her fashion just so she could carry a gun and she was definitely not going to wear anything baggy. That might make her look fat! :) The result was that she decided to OC. Occasionally in deference to her real estate clients, she'll cover up but not usually. Sometimes making money os more important than making a statement. I really wanted her to have a weapon for those times when she is holding open houses or showing someone an empty house.

She has had no problems whatsoever. The local Sherriff even pointed her out once to bystanders and laughed and said "check her out!" Actually I think she gets a pass much more easily than a guy would. Anyone can tell just by looking at her that she is otherwise harmless so obviously she is a legit gun toter.

[kc8opc]

My hat is off to Mrs. Graydon, and Mr. Graydon for supporting her choice.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[larrybob42]

What exactly does carrying "appendix" mean?JKgirl, carrying appendix is helpful in the summer. Crossdraw appendix sometimes works depending on the clothing style.

I am trying to talk my husband into getting behind the idea. He seems to think I'd be making a target of myself. Er, and him, he doesn't carry yet. (He will when he gets out of the sandbox.)
I think I'd be utilizing a right, that, if more women got into, guys OC would be more acceptable.
I'd rather there be a ton of guys out there OC, then I could blend. But as that is not the case currently, do we ladies get folks used to seeing OC so the guys can?

[kc8opc]

It's basically carrying in the 2 o'clock position, just forward to extreme forward of the hip.
For females, there is usually an anatomical groove that a firearm fits nicely in. Long barrel will make sitting down very uncomfortable, but for driving, it switches easily to crossdraw.

[RSF]

with certian types of appendix holsters its much easier to carry for both men and woman

a lot of our staff and students use the RAVEN ACR holster.
it is very comfy and fast. and adjustable for depth of gun.

[Just A Girl]

I finally OC'd.

However I can honestly say I have NEVER been that fast at the grocery store before........
OR had that wonderful of service at WalMart!

Everyone was all smiles and helpful, got a few gang-bangers going sideways, and spiked my blood pressure.

I am not sure OC is for me, and I imagine it gets easier (Does it?), but I did it.

Anyone else going to try OC?
8)

Good job kc8opc. I'm glad you are carrying and specifically oc'ing--I think you are doing the right thing. Some of my concerns are the same as yours (don't want anyone around me to be alarmed, as I am not interested in any negative attention drawn to me).

I also wish to see more OC--haven't seen any women OC yet.
Be safe,
JAG