Spoke to MSP Today...Bad Info!

[Dale Holcomb]

Spoke with a MSP Lieutenant today over the phone that's in charge of the gun board in my county (St. Clair). The conversation started out about me being a state Department of Corrections Lieutenant and getting an exemption on my CPL. It was denied, but the conversation led into open-carry when I told him that my reason for wanting the exemption status is because I've run into a couple ex-convicts of late and am concerned about me not being able to carry concealed at one of the places (hockey arena...pistol-free zone) I frequent. This is where I ran into the convicts, due to some community service work they were doing. I'm there about 4-5 times a week with my son and his hockey. I told him, "I know that with my CPL, I can carry open there even though it's a pistol-free zone, but I'd rather not advertise if I don't have to." We went round and round with it for a little while. IMHO, he had a lot of misinformed information about CPL's and open-carry laws. He first said that my CPL meant that I had to carry it concealed. He seemed to keep telling me information that I knew wasn't correct, and when I called him on it he would then retract it somewhat, like when I responded "I know for a fact, per your "MSP Alert Bulletin" that I receive at work, that open-carry is legal in Michigan. I can walk down the street and carry a pistol in the open even without a CPL." He then retracted somewhat by saying, "Yes, but if a business says you can't, then you have to leave." I agreed. He said he wasn't concerned with open-carry, only concealed issues. I was polite and told him about several of the MCL's concerning CPL's, where open-carry issues are involved with them directly.

I then told him that..."per the MSP website, regarding pistol-free zones, it states that a person with a CPL is exemept, so that means I can carry open there if I have a CPL...right?" I decided to end the conversation with him when he responded, "If you carry open in any of the pistol-free zones, even with a CPL, you'll be arrested." He did give me his email address and said that I could send him some information that I thought might be helpful regarding our conversation.

I wasn't really prepared to start quoting MCL numbers during the phone call, nor do I think it would have helped at the time. I know I wouldn't have listened much to me over the phone, especially when he was about to go on vacation after today. I at least got a window of opportunity by getting his email address and phone # to start the process of educating him.

Any suggestions on how best to approach this?;)

[SADAacp]

Spoke with a MSP Lieutenant today over the phone that's in charge of the gun board in my county (St. Clair). The conversation started out about me being a state Department of Corrections Lieutenant and getting an exemption on my CPL. It was denied, but the conversation led into open-carry when I told him that my reason for wanting the exemption status is because I've run into a couple ex-convicts of late and am concerned about me not being able to carry concealed at one of the places (hockey arena...pistol-free zone) I frequent. This is where I ran into the convicts, due to some community service work they were doing. I'm there about 4-5 times a week with my son and his hockey. I told him, "I know that with my CPL, I can carry open there even though it's a pistol-free zone, but I'd rather not advertise if I don't have to." We went round and round with it for a little while. IMHO, he had a lot of misinformed information about CPL's and open-carry laws. He first said that my CPL meant that I had to carry it concealed. He seemed to keep telling me information that I knew wasn't correct, and when I called him on it he would then retract it somewhat, like when I responded "I know for a fact, per your "MSP Alert Bulletin" that I receive at work, that open-carry is legal in Michigan. I can walk down the street and carry a pistol in the open even without a CPL." He then retracted somewhat by saying, "Yes, but if a business says you can't, then you have to leave." I agreed. He said he wasn't concerned with open-carry, only concealed issues. I was polite and told him about several of the MCL's concerning CPL's, where open-carry issues are involved with them directly.

I then told him that..."per the MSP website, regarding pistol-free zones, it states that a person with a CPL is exemept, so that means I can carry open there if I have a CPL...right?" I decided to end the conversation with him when he responded, "If you carry open in any of the pistol-free zones, even with a CPL, you'll be arrested." He did give me his email address and said that I could send him some information that I thought might be helpful regarding our conversation.

I wasn't really prepared to start quoting MCL numbers during the phone call, nor do I think it would have helped at the time. I know I wouldn't have listened much to me over the phone, especially when he was about to go on vacation after today. I at least got a window of opportunity by getting his email address and phone # to start the process of educating him.

Any suggestions on how best to approach this?;)

Dale, in Michigan, Corrections Officers and Posse/Reserve Deputies are exempt from the CPZ's, on or off duty. IIRC, this was confirmed last January. And, as far as I know, there is no statue requiring that the exemption box on your CPL is checked, provided of course, you meet at least one of the above conditions. It would be best however that you go the extra mile and get the check mark on the license incase you're stopped/questioned.

[appliancebrad]

First, the Prosecuting Attorney NOT the MSP representative is the head of the county Gun Board. Send a letter to your County Clerk with the request to have the exemption box checked. This request should be forwarded to the GB.

[b.c.]

Refer to MSP Legal Update #71 (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._71_263341_7.pdf) which addresses concealed pistol license and pistol free zones. It states "MCL 28.425o was amended to extend CPL pistol free zone exemptions to the following while off-duty: county corrections officers; MDOC parole or probation officers; all reserve officers or sheriff's posse members; and MSP motor carrier officers and capitol security officers."

[Dale Holcomb]

Yeah, I'm state corrections, meaning I can't get the exemption. Actually, we were listed on the original MSP Legal Update #71 that came out and within less than a day we were removed. I still have that email. It was a big joke at my facility (Macomb) when it was quickly removed. County corrections is okay, not us. Only Parole/Probation within our department can get the exemption. He was correct about that, but not a lot of other information.

I knew it, I just wanted to debate the issue with him since I've run into more and more ex-convicts as of late. I'm from the Port Huron area and actually had an ex-convict run into me over the winter in the Cadillac Wal-Mart! That was when I decided to get my CPL.

[who dat]

When I wrote the MSP about OC, I got these responses:

Yes, so-called open carry is legal in Michigan, with or without a CPL. It doesn't matter how a pistol is carried, as long as it's not concealed. A holstered pistol is considered "open" if part of the pistol is visible and it's readily apparent that the item is a pistol.

Sincerely,
Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441

and:

Good afternoon,

Michigan Concealed Pistol Licenses grant the holder permission to carry a concealed pistol, but they do not require concealed carry. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in places where it would be lawful to do so without a CPL.

Sincerely,
Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441

You may want to direct your MSP contact to this guy for the facts.

[Venator12]

Spoke with a MSP Lieutenant today over the phone that's in charge of the gun board in my county (St. Clair). The conversation started out about me being a state Department of Corrections Lieutenant and getting an exemption on my CPL. It was denied, but the conversation led into open-carry when I told him that my reason for wanting the exemption status is because I've run into a couple ex-convicts of late and am concerned about me not being able to carry concealed at one of the places (hockey arena...pistol-free zone) I frequent. This is where I ran into the convicts, due to some community service work they were doing. I'm there about 4-5 times a week with my son and his hockey. I told him, "I know that with my CPL, I can carry open there even though it's a pistol-free zone, but I'd rather not advertise if I don't have to." We went round and round with it for a little while. IMHO, he had a lot of misinformed information about CPL's and open-carry laws. He first said that my CPL meant that I had to carry it concealed. He seemed to keep telling me information that I knew wasn't correct, and when I called him on it he would then retract it somewhat, like when I responded "I know for a fact, per your "MSP Alert Bulletin" that I receive at work, that open-carry is legal in Michigan. I can walk down the street and carry a pistol in the open even without a CPL." He then retracted somewhat by saying, "Yes, but if a business says you can't, then you have to leave." I agreed. He said he wasn't concerned with open-carry, only concealed issues. I was polite and told him about several of the MCL's concerning CPL's, where open-carry issues are involved with them directly.

I then told him that..."per the MSP website, regarding pistol-free zones, it states that a person with a CPL is exemept, so that means I can carry open there if I have a CPL...right?" I decided to end the conversation with him when he responded, "If you carry open in any of the pistol-free zones, even with a CPL, you'll be arrested." He did give me his email address and said that I could send him some information that I thought might be helpful regarding our conversation.

I wasn't really prepared to start quoting MCL numbers during the phone call, nor do I think it would have helped at the time. I know I wouldn't have listened much to me over the phone, especially when he was about to go on vacation after today. I at least got a window of opportunity by getting his email address and phone # to start the process of educating him.

Any suggestions on how best to approach this?;)


Send him this and ask him to talk with his own Sgt Deasy from MSP. Sgt. Deasy's contact info is below his email response. This should help him understand what you are saying.

OC with a CPL in gun free zones:

Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

“…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"

“Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.” Sincerely,
Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441

[Dale Holcomb]

I emailed the Lieutenant and did CC Sgt. Deasy. I haven't received a response yet, as the Lt. is on vacation until May 4th. When I woke up this morning I ended up sending the AG's Opinion 7113 to him. We'll see. I know I'm right and he's wrong. With my job you'd think I could get away with testing the system on open carry a little more and being able to get some professional courtesy when and if stopped. Nope. Sometimes yes, but most times no. So, I'm on a mission about this. My wife just rolled her eyes when I told her that!:-P I'm thinking of putting all the info and e-mail responses that are correct in a small binder and keep it in my car. If I were ever stopped on foot, I shouldn't be too far from my car where I could show the officer if need be. I know it's not wise to say too much and I wouldn't. I could just ask if he/she would like to see some paperwork on the subject to share with their supervisor.

I did find something interesting last night when I was going over some things that I sent to the MSP Lieutenant. I noticed in 750.234d of the Michigan Penal Code which is typically referred to as the "gun free zone" that a school is not listed. It is in MCL 28.425o, concerning concealed carry and that a school is off limits to concealed carry. I just find that strange. I guess I've always just breezed over it and never realized it before.

Unless I'm missing something...I'm thinking you can carry openly on school property without a CPL. Correct?

[dougwg]

*edit*
Did you edit your post from with to without?

OC with CPL on school grounds appears to be legal.

You have much learning ahead of you young grasshopper.

Please read and re-read this~~~> Link! ! ! ! (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html)

And welcome to Michigan Gun Owners

[Raspberrysurprise]

Unless I'm missing something...I'm thinking you can carry openly on school property without a CPL. Correct?
Only if you want to get arrested. Federal law says you can't have a firearm on school property without a permit.

[dougwg]

Only if you want to get arrested. Federal law says you can't have a firearm on school property without a permit.

Correct, without a CPL (permit) it's unlawful.

The Federal law gives that exact exemption.

[Dale Holcomb]

YOU CAN OPENLY CARRY A HANDGUN IN MICHIGAN*

1) Any law abiding citizen who owns a registered/licensed handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL. Private property rules over-ride state law in regards to firearm possession.

MSP Legal Update Newsletters: April 2007 and June 2008: Did You Know: …It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol…...

PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital. h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act. (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
b) A peace officer.
c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
2) If you don’t have a CPL, you must transport your handgun as prescribe by law.


I'll have to check on the Federal law. I took this right from the link provided...where does it say school?

[Dale Holcomb]

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school
zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify
that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the
individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining
access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school
authorities.

This is from another post about school zones about the Federal law. My permit is only for concealed carry. I'm probably totally misreading this, but it appears to me that the permit they're (feds) referencing only pertains to "possessing" a firearm in a school zone. My purchase permit authorizes me to possess a pistol. My CPL authorizes me to conceal it in certain locals.

[x98myers7]

gawddamnit, now i'm confused. i was taught that you cannot have a weapon on school property (either open carry or conceal) except if i have a CPL and I am in my vehicle picking up/dropping off my kids. i cannot step out of my vehicle onto school property with the weapon.

can i conceal carry on school property if I have a CPL?

i only care because i love to take my kids to a local elementary school on the weekends to play on the playground.

[langenc]

""A holstered pistol is considered "open" if part of the pistol is visible and it's readily apparent that the item is a pistol.""


Quoted from an above post..

I have always been lead to believe, perhaps via the DNR hunting regulations, that if "any part of holstered gun is covered-it is concealled."

The above part of MSP letter is just the opposite.. woulnt it be nice if all were on the same page, like a fine orchestra.

As to the discussion about school zones-others have posted that if the school baseball/other team is playing at the ball diamond, the whole park is now "school grounds."????

[x98myers7]

The above part of MSP letter is just the opposite.. woulnt it be nice if all were on the same page, like a fine orchestra.

no kidding.

not to mention that 85% of my pistol is "covered" by the holster when i use my OWB holster. therefore it must be concealed, right? my IWB show more of my pistol if i tuck my shirt in behind the holster. :coocoo:

[Dale Holcomb]

In a holster outside the waistband is considered "open carry". Put a shirt/coat over it and it's "concealed". In a insided the waistband holster is considered "concealed".

[Venator12]

gawddamnit, now i'm confused. i was taught that you cannot have a weapon on school property (either open carry or conceal) except if i have a CPL and I am in my vehicle picking up/dropping off my kids. i cannot step out of my vehicle onto school property with the weapon.

can i conceal carry on school property if I have a CPL?

i only care because i love to take my kids to a local elementary school on the weekends to play on the playground.

There is the CPL exemption in regards to school grounds. Since there is a law against concealed carry, you by default have to OC at a school.

That's not to say you won't be confronted by LEO's and/or be arrested. We have no case law to support this in Michigan. I will say that we have MOC members that have OCed in schools without incident, but I believe these were smaller schools in smaller towns.

[Venator12]

In a holster outside the waistband is considered "open carry". Put a shirt/coat over it and it's "concealed". In a insided the waistband holster is considered "concealed".

That has yet to be determined by case law. The general rule is that if a ordinary person can tell it's a gun it's open. But some could argue that a IWB holster is concealed. We would need a case decision on this, or an AG opinion. We advise at this time to avoid the IWB for OC if you don't have a CPL.

[who dat]

I have always been lead to believe, perhaps via the DNR hunting regulations, that if "any part of holstered gun is covered-it is concealled."


A gun in a holster that is recognizable as a holster is not considered concealed when you are afield even if no part of the gun is visible.

Both in the DNR regs and an AG opinion IIRC.

[Dale Holcomb]

There is the CPL exemption in regards to school grounds. Since there is a law against concealed carry, you by default have to OC at a school.

I don't see it? I see the law against concealed carry on the back of my CPL and in MCL 28.425o.

I know in MCL 28.425o regarding concealed carry and where you can't carry concealed mentions schools/property, but MCL 750.234d regarding firearm possession and where you can't possess one doesn't mention schools at all. The places that it does mention you cannot possess a firearm. If you read a little further down (section 2C) it makes an exception for those with a CPL, meaning you can possess a firearm on those places listed above if you have a CPL. It doesn't list a school. My original point was that I always thought "schools" were mentioned on both, however, with a CPL you could carry open solely on the exception. But I now see that "school" was never on MCL 750.234d

Example..."sports arena" is listed on MCL 750.234d and also on MCL 28.425o. I know with my CPL I can't carry concealed there, however, since MCL 750.234d makes it possible to "possess" a firearm there with the Sec. 2C exception, I can and must open carry there.

Since "school" is not mentioned on MCL 750.234d, why can't somone without a CPL open carry there?

[dougwg]

I don't see it? I see the law against concealed carry on the back of my CPL and in MCL 28.425o.

I know in MCL 28.425o regarding concealed carry and where you can't carry concealed mentions schools/property, but MCL 750.234d regarding firearm possession and where you can't possess one doesn't mention schools at all. The places that it does mention you cannot possess a firearm. If you read a little further down (section 2C) it makes an exception for those with a CPL, meaning you can possess a firearm on those places listed above if you have a CPL. It doesn't list a school. My original point was that I always thought "schools" were mentioned on both, however, with a CPL you could carry open solely on the exception. But I now see that "school" was never on MCL 750.234d

Example..."sports arena" is listed on MCL 750.234d and also on MCL 28.425o. I know with my CPL I can't carry concealed there, however, since MCL 750.234d makes it possible to "possess" a firearm there with the Sec. 2C exception, I can and must open carry there.

Since "school" is not mentioned on MCL 750.234d, why can't somone without a CPL open carry there?

On the surface it appears you're correct.

Also it appears that without a CPL you may not OC into a "depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution".( bank and or Credit Union)

[Dale Holcomb]

[QUOTE=dougwg]On the surface it appears you're correct.QUOTE]


Okay...I just thought I was going crazy.

The lists of places on both MCL's are very similar. I wonder why schools was left off of MCL 750.235d? I'll bet that it's for private security officers that may not have a CPL for whatever reason. I'll bet in the Big D that it's common. :para:

[zigziggityzoo]

I'm not sure why this is confusing.

Per MCL 28.425o, you may not carry CONCEALED in the locations listed, unless you're a judge or a :cop: (few other exemptions, read the law (http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425o).)

Per MCL 750.234d, you may not carry OPENLY in the locations listed, unless you're a judge or a :cop:, OR if you have a CPL (also, read the law (http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d).)

To summarize:

If you have a CPL, you may carry concealed anywhere except the listed pistol-free zones in the first link. You may carry openly anywhere in the state, except court facilities and federal buildings.

[x98myers7]

Per MCL 750.234d, you may not carry OPENLY in the locations listed, unless you're a judge or a :cop:, OR if you have a CPL (also, read the law (http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d).)

this says nothing of concealed or open carry.

it's actually terribly confusing due to the inconsistency. i will have to re-read the MCLs a few times to gain a more clear understanding.

[zigziggityzoo]

this says nothing of concealed or open carry.

it's actually terribly confusing due to the inconsistency. i will have to re-read the MCLs a few times to gain a more clear understanding.

Really?

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon

That's clearly exempting CPL holders, as I stated.

That is the list for carry in general. You cannot carry in those locations UNLESS you have a CPL.

And the other list is regarding CONCEALED carry ONLY.

You're really making this harder than it has to be. Just think it through.

[Dale Holcomb]

Really?



That's clearly exempting CPL holders, as I stated.

That is the list for carry in general. You cannot carry in those locations UNLESS you have a CPL.

And the other list is regarding CONCEALED carry ONLY.

You're really making this harder than it has to be. Just think it through.

It's clear to me too, but there seems to be a lot of misinformation going around. In MCL 750.234d, I was only speaking on schools/property. It does not mention schools or school property as being a place one cannot possess a firearm, therefore, it leads me to believe that an average non-CPL person can carry openly there.

There are those (many on this site) that say we CPL holders can only carry openly at a school strictly because exempts MCL 750.234d us. Exempts us from what? It (schools) isn't even listed as a place you cannot possess a firearm!

Now, I will say that the Federal Law governing school zones isn't all that clear to me. It mentions you can possess a firearm on school grounds if you are licensed (permit) by the state to do so. Some say the permit is our CPL. I don't agree. Our CPL is only a permit to carry concealed...nothing more. The only permit we/I have to possess a firearm is the paperwork filled out upon purchase. So, IMHO, if you're legally in possession of a pistol, and openly carrying without a CPL, you should be within the law.

[zigziggityzoo]

Now, I will say that the Federal Law governing school zones isn't all that clear to me. It mentions you can possess a firearm on school grounds if you are licensed (permit) by the state to do so. Some say the permit is our CPL. I don't agree. Our CPL is only a permit to carry concealed...nothing more. The only permit we/I have to possess a firearm is the paperwork filled out upon purchase. So, IMHO, if you're legally in possession of a pistol, and openly carrying without a CPL, you should be within the law.

The permit you get is the permit to purchase. You don't need a permit to carry. If you needed a permit to carry, an officer could ask you for that card with reasonable suspicion.

My CPL lets me borrow another person's gun. I don't own that gun, nor do I have a license to carry *that* gun. But the CPL itself is a License to Carry (concealed). This, in my opinion, is the type of card that the Federal law is asking for.

You don't carry a license if you don't have one, so you'd need a CPL to carry in school zones.

[Dale Holcomb]

The permit you get is the permit to purchase. You don't need a permit to carry. If you needed a permit to carry, an officer could ask you for that card with reasonable suspicion.

My CPL lets me borrow another person's gun. I don't own that gun, nor do I have a license to carry *that* gun. But the CPL itself is a License to Carry (concealed). This, in my opinion, is the type of card that the Federal law is asking for.

You don't carry a license if you don't have one, so you'd need a CPL to carry in school zones.


I can accept that. There's also a reference about this in one of the AG's opinions. I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Dale Holcomb]

Similarly, section 237a(4) of the Penal Code prohibits possession of a firearm in a weapon free school zone, a term defined in section 237a(6)(d) as "school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property." Like section 234d(2), the prohibition against possessing firearms in a school zone does not apply to a peace officer or to a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Section 237a(5).

Simple as that!

[Venator12]

Similarly, section 237a(4) of the Penal Code prohibits possession of a firearm in a weapon free school zone, a term defined in section 237a(6)(d) as "school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property." Like section 234d(2), the prohibition against possessing firearms in a school zone does not apply to a peace officer or to a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Section 237a(5).

Simple as that!
Can you post the entire MCL number for 237a(4) I can't find it in the statute search? that is MCL xxx xxx.237a(4)

[dougwg]

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-237a

[zigziggityzoo]

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-237a

Relevant info highlighted:

(4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

(a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.

(b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.

(c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.

(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:

(a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.

(e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

(f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:

(i) The individual is carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded, in a wrapper or container in the trunk of a vehicle while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area or function involving the exhibition, demonstration or sale of antique firearms.

(ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

(iii) The person is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

(iv) The person is carrying an unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle that does not have a trunk, if the person is otherwise complying with the requirements of subparagraph (ii) or (iii) and the wrapper or container is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

[MikeN]

Now, I will say that the Federal Law governing school zones isn't all that clear to me. It mentions you can possess a firearm on school grounds if you are licensed (permit) by the state to do so.



Dale, can you please cite the Federal Law ?

Thanks

Mike

[dougwg]

Dale, can you please cite the Federal Law ?

Thanks

Mike

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showpost.php?p=447793&postcount=32

[zigziggityzoo]

Dale, can you please cite the Federal Law ?

Thanks

Mike

Relevant info highlighted:

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school
zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an
individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify
that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the
individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining
access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school
authorities.

Note that federal law also allows for an unloaded, locked-encased firearm within school grounds as well (state law can and does further restrict this, however).

[bsf]

This is definitely a side track. After reading the first post, I was wondering what was going on. I thought for certain corrections officers became exempt first week of January '09. Then I actually pulled up the law. What the heck? Everybody and their brother associated w/ LE or corrections was exempted, EXCEPT STATE corrections officers who are not parole or probation officers. So, why were county corrections officers made exempt, but not state corrections officers who are not parole or probations officers? Different job responsibilities? Does not matter to me, but seems strange.

[Dale Holcomb]

We were actually on the first one that came out. By the end of the day an amended one was published. Don't know why. I'm only guessing here, but we're a huge part of the LE community. That's a lot more potential "exempt" CPL holders. Only a guess though.

By the way...still no response of the MSP Lieutenant or Sgt. Deasy. Waiting...

[bsf]

We were actually on the first one that came out. By the end of the day an amended one was published. Don't know why. I'm only guessing here, but we're a huge part of the LE community. That's a lot more potential "exempt" CPL holders. Only a guess though.

By the way...still no response of the MSP Lieutenant or Sgt. Deasy. Waiting...
Gotcha. Did not know it was in a previous version of the bill. Thanks for the info.

[Nater]

Let's not forget too fellas, you need the permission of the owner or a representative of said entity's to OC (with CPL in pistol-free zone).

I was just talking to a friend of mine who is a peace officer and he was turned away at a Pistons game.

It may be "legal", but that doesn't mean a damn thing if the owner tells you to take a hike.

[burgundyyears]

Let's not forget too fellas, you need the permission of the owner or a representative of said entity's to OC (with CPL in pistol-free zone).

I was just talking to a friend of mine who is a peace officer and he was turned away at a Pistons game.

It may be "legal", but that doesn't mean a damn thing if the owner tells you to take a hike.

Any private business can tell you to beat it when it comes to concealed or open carry. The difference is, with this nearly OC with a CPL option, it's not criminal to do so unless you are refused entry and/or are asked to leave and do not leave. By comparison, if you try to OC in a sports arena without a CPL, it's automatically a misdemeanor.

To add more to the thread, here's what I posted on Michigan OC:

OC with a CPL at least appears to be quite powerful in Michigan - among the most permissive I've seen anywhere.

This list doesn't apply:

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor;
penalty.
Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of
1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that
firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.


And the CPL list of restrictions only applies to a concealed pistol - not an openly carried one (see also AG opinion below):

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection
(1); violation; penalties.
Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol...shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A school or school property ...
(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
(c) A sports arena or stadium.
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where
the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises...
(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of
concealed pistol on that property or facility.
(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
(g) A hospital.
(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

There would appear to be very little statutorily off-limits for OC with a CPL in MI. The list I can think of is: courtrooms/court offices, federal buildings, national parks/lakeshores/refuges until Feb., certain state universities if you believe their position that preemption is inapplicable to them. The rest is fair game as far as the law goes: bars, daycares, schools, hospitals, etc.

AG Opinion 7113 appears to lay this out pretty explicitly with the example of a peace officer in a school, but it also explicitly refers to CPL holders as people who get to OC without respect to either list of restrictions in the MCL:

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10188.htm

[CoonDog]

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so


IMO, in Michigan, the license to possess is the LTP.


Section 28.422

28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.