Well, Westwood mall in Jackson

[Kimberguy1371]

here is my situation today....
I just copied and pasted from MOC

Got locked out of my office today(not my fault this time)

So I went to the Westwood mall.

Shopped around talked to a lot of people, got a few looks but overall good. Then I see the security looing at me from quite a distance, he looked a little worried. Now as usaual, I am in a suit minus the coat.

I go into the gap and see a blackman township cop talking to the security guy. I then go into the gap to check out some cloths.

I am having a friendly conversation with one of the girls there, when the cop comes in and motions with his finger to go see him,

Cop asks for ID

Me: "I don't believe i have to give you ID for lawful open carry sir"

Cop: It is posted at all the entrances that you can not carry a fire arm here, so lets see some ID"

me: "I would like to see the signs"

Cop: "Alright"

I caved, damnit... I know, should have just said i'm not even required to carry ID with me... I'll remember next time to leave it in my car.

So I handed him my military ID, he then asked if I had a drivers licence, I fished around my pocket for it... didn't want to pull the CPL... and I gave it to him.

we then walked out of the store together(still had the gun) but he has me walk in front of him.

we go to the security guy who looke dlike he felt really bad... I don't know if he realized i wasn't criminal when I wasn't in cuffs, or what the deal was. but the cop told him I wanted to see the sign so we went to the entrance I came in at and took a look at it.

it is a shet of paper framed on the wall next to the door unless you are looking for it you wouldn't see it, and at the bottom in I wold say about 10-12 pt font
"no firearms or illegal weappons"
I turned to the security guy and said
"sorry about that bro, never seen that before, I don't think I ever would have noticed it comming in here 1000 times"

again he looked at me and said: "no big deal" i didn't even know what to say after that.

the cop then escorted me to his car, and had me stand in fron of it while he checked to see if i was "legit to carry a gun."

While we were on the way to his car, he said
"you know you can be charged with a crime right"
me: "Yeah tresspassing"
then I think that is when he got flusterated with me
Cop: "no, I oculd charge you with a weappons charge, carrying in a no carry zone"
Me: "this is privte property posted no guns, it is tresspassing"
Cop: if it is posted MI lays says you can't carry so it is a weappons charge"
Cop: (under his breath) I love it when people try to tell me how to do my job"

When it is all done and said, he tells me: "you have the right to carry your firearm, consealed or out in the open, but it is not the stores responsibility to post signs where ppl will see them."

I wasn't going to get into it with him, I kept my mouth shut.

He asked me if I was going home, I said "no, i'm going to Walmart, would you like to secorte me through the mall to the other side?"

Cop: "no your fine"

as I walked in the security guy was tlaking with hi boss, either about posting signs where ppl could see them, or getting rid of them, not sure... but they know that what they have is a problem. I told them to cal me and we could perhaps see what we could work out because thi is getting bigger, and we will carry, and we need to know where not to go.

I know I messed up... next time, i own't have ID on me!

then I can't give it to them.... and I raelly need an audio recorder.

[zigziggityzoo]

Next time (hindsight...) Immediately ask him for his supervisor.

Ask him to find the MCL that states it's illegal to carry in a mall.

And he can mutter all he wants. haha.

[ronin]

Big shock, Blackman officers unaware of the local laws they are to enforce. Been there, done that, along with the majority of Jackson.

Not sure where to find it, but I'm fairly sure that the font size and sign has to be larger (15pt rings a bell?) to be legal.

I will continue to carry there, and if my life is ever endangered within their property, I guess I will have to suck up charges, though living another day.

[PhotoTom]

So...let me get this straight...

You were in the mall, carrying your firearm...

After being put on notice, both verbally and shown the posting in writing ("no firearms")...you exited the mall and went out the the cops' car...

Then, after all was done, you went back into the mall...still carrying your firearm?

Well alrighty then! :lol:

[Kimberguy1371]

So...let me get this straight...

You were in the mall, carrying your firearm...

After being put on notice, both verbally and shown the posting in writing ("no firearms")...you exited the mall and went out the the cops' car...

Then, after all was done, you went back into the mall...still carrying your firearm?

Well alrighty then! :lol:

I asked the cop to escort me to the other side. he didn't want to I guess.:whistle:

[Jvanasjr]

never underestimate the laziness of a public servant... lol

Not a slam on Onetime... I wuz one...

[jmlefler]

As much as we rehearse in our heads how we'll react the first time a Peace Officer approaches us, we won't know how we'll react until it actually happens. Don't beat yourself up over this, Chris.

Carry on

[Garbo]

I asked the cop to escort me to the other side. he didn't want to I guess.:whistle:


But you already know you're dealing with a cop that doesnt know the law. Say rent a cop #2 calls when you get to the other side? Different cop responds and is even less informed and then finds out you were already on notice?

[dougwg]

But you already know you're dealing with a cop that doesnt know the law. Say rent a cop #2 calls when you get to the other side? Different cop responds and is even less informed and then finds out you were already on notice?

He wasn't asked to leave by security or anyone else that I know of.

Then the security guy said "no big deal". Is that then permission?

[PhotoTom]

...

HEY DOUG!!! You can't "steal" Joey's image for your avatar! That's copyrighted work...right out of the Sears Catalog! :lol:

....OK...back on topic now...Westwood mall...Jackson... ;)

[Joeywhat]

HEY DOUG!!! You can't "steal" Joey's image for your avatar! That's copyrighted work...right out of the Sears Catalog! :lol:

....OK...back on topic now...Westwood mall...Jackson... ;)

Yeah...shouldn't I be getting royalties or something?

:lmao:

[dougwg]

Royalties, no but you should take it and use it as your avatar though.

I'll change mine to something else in a little while.

[Mouse08]

here is my situation today....

it is a shet of paper framed on the wall next to the door unless you are looking for it you wouldn't see it, and at the bottom in I wold say about 10-12 pt font
"no firearms or illegal weappons"
I turned to the security guy and said
"sorry about that bro, never seen that before, I don't think I ever would have noticed it comming in here 1000 times"

I read somewhere that the sign has to be a minimum of 1 inch letters. And as soon as I find where I read that I'll post a link. Seriously, I just spent 45 minutes skimming the firearms laws of Michigan handbook. I really think it's in there somewhere.

[Venator12]

I read somewhere that the sign has to be a minimum of 1 inch letters. And as soon as I find where I read that I'll post a link. Seriously, I just spent 45 minutes skimming the firearms laws of Michigan handbook. I really think it's in there somewhere.
I don't think there is any sign size law except for a restaurant posting they have a majority of sales from alcohol and there's something about the entertainment facility and the 2500 seating thing. I don't know if they mention size, but you could look there first...the Concealed licensing statute that is.

[Done Deal]

I know I messed up... next time, i own't have ID on me!

then I can't give it to them.... and I raelly need an audio recorder.

The law already requires ID with a CPL.

If people keep pushing the no ID thing, how long is it going to be before somebody introduces legislation that requires anybody in possession of a firearm to have ID with them?

If this wheel keeps squeaking, it is likely to get greased and how can that be good?


And, just for the record....in this case....you probably were lucky that you had your ID and your CPL because cameras recorded you getting out of that vehicle with a loaded gun on your hip didn't they?

[7.62 Nato]

And, just for the record....in this case....you probably were lucky that you had your ID and your CPL because cameras recorded you getting out of that vehicle with a loaded gun on your hip didn't they?

I see no mention of a vehicle in the thread. He states that he WENT to the mall.

[Done Deal]

So I went to the Westwood mall.

I caved, damnit... I know, should have just said i'm not even required to carry ID with me... I'll remember next time to leave it in my car.




That mention of the car....

[MLG]

That mention of the car....

And, when he is back to his car, he retrieves his ID. Sorry, but I guess I miss the point that you are making.

[Done Deal]

And, when he is back to his car, he retrieves his ID. Sorry, but I guess I miss the point that you are making.


If he was carrying in the car....he needed a drivers license and a CPL.

I know for a fact that people have been convicted of driving without a license when they were never seen behind the wheel of the vehicle that wound up in the same place that they were. If video or witnesses recorded him getting out while OC'ing and he couldn't produce both...that kinda sounds like a CCW charge doesn't it?

Get it now?

[dougwg]

DD,

All he has to do is leave his ID in the car.

While he is walking around OCing he doesn't need ID but when he steps foot back into his car, he will have his ID right there because he left it in his car..

Get it now?

[MLG]

If he was carrying in the car....he needed a drivers license and a CPL.

I know for a fact that people have been convicted of driving without a license when they were never seen behind the wheel of the vehicle that wound up in the same place that they were. If video or witnesses recorded him getting out while OC'ing and he couldn't produce both...that kinda sounds like a CCW charge doesn't it?

Get it now?

DD,

Not trying to be argumentative but I don't see your example is applicable.

If I:
1. Drive to the Mall and have my DL and CPL in the Cup Holder of my car
2. Get out of my car with my exposed and holstered pistol
3. Go into the Mall while I Openly Carry my sidearm (assuming it's a mall that allows weapons in the first place, Westwood was posted although maybe not well)
4. Get stopped as Kimber did
5. State that I do not have Id nor am I required to do so because blah, blah, blah.
6. The gun is not concealed, so he does not need the CPL at that point.
7. The very second that he returns and re enters his car, the weapon is considered concealed but his CPL and DL are there for him to offer as proof that he is legally carrying.

What are you suggesting that he can be charged with in the Mall?

No DL? If so, that's a secondary issue and another discussion.

When he is stopped in the Mall, he didn't need to produce his CPL in the first Place. Did he? How does the Security Guard/ Police even know that he drove to the mall, maybe he walked. Now does he need the DL and CPL?

I don't OC, I don't think it's wise and there is too much baggage that goes along with it. But it is legal, and I just think that your example is not really applicable in this situation. I don't need to carry my DL when I'm not driving. I don't need to carry my CPL if I'm not carrying concealed.

[wadevb1]

Appears to me that Kimberguy was treated fairly by both the officer and mall security. The officer could have went another direction and probably would have KG refused to produce operators license, although not required.

[Done Deal]

DD,

Not trying to be argumentative but I don't see your example is applicable.


No DL? If so, that's a secondary issue and another discussion.



Please reread what he said and what I said.....secondary issue or not. If he got there by vehicle and the police could prove he did, he sure as hell had better cough up the CPL and Drivers license.

[zigziggityzoo]

Please reread what he said and what I said.....secondary issue or not. If he got there by vehicle and the police could prove he did, he sure as hell had better cough up the CPL and Drivers license.

Who's to say he didn't unload and lock up, and reload and holster when he got there? It's perfectly within his right to do so. Unless an officer *SAW* him leave his car with a gun on his hip, there's absolutely no way he can reasonably suspect he was in a car with a loaded gun.

(Officer): "Sir, I have reason to believe that you drove to this here shopping center, so I'm going to need to see your driver's license, you know, to make sure you did so legally."

Even the sheep would be pissed off at that.

[Done Deal]

Who's to say he didn't unload and lock up, and reload and holster when he got there? It's perfectly within his right to do so. Unless an officer *SAW* him leave his car with a gun on his hip, there's absolutely no way he can reasonably suspect he was in a car with a loaded gun.





Well, the OP did NOT say that is how he did it and, since the OP did say that he had a CPL, it is safe to assume that he avoided standing in a parking lot and loading a gun. So, while he or anybody might be within their right to stand in a mall parking lot and load a gun, those same people might reasonably expect a visit from the police. I mean, how many people would NOT call the police if they saw some person get out of a car, load a gun and head on into a mall?

But, since he didn't mention doing that, I felt it safe to assume that he didn't so, it doesn't matter if it is loaded or not....he still would have needed the CPL and drivers license now wouldn't he? As far as you and your sheep, I know for a fact that are arrests and convictions for driving when the officer never saw the person drive...so, get pissed all you want, it happens.

Folks need to consider the totality of the circumstances on all this before they start conjuring up ways to make a point about OC.

[zigziggityzoo]

Well, the OP did NOT say that is how he did it and, since the OP did say that he had a CPL, it is safe to assume that he avoided standing in a parking lot and loading a gun. So, while he or anybody might be within their right to stand in a mall parking lot and load a gun, those same people might reasonably expect a visit from the police. I mean, how many people would NOT call the police if they saw some person get out of a car, load a gun and head on into a mall?

I did this act almost daily while I was waiting for my CPL to arrive. It's my right. And by the way, no one ever called the cops on me, even though I did this daily, sometimes multiple times a day, for almost two months.


But, since he didn't mention doing that, I felt it safe to assume that he didn't so, it doesn't matter if it is loaded or not....he still would have needed the CPL and drivers license now wouldn't he? As far as you and your sheep, I know for a fact that are arrests and convictions for driving when the officer never saw the person drive...so, get pissed all you want, it happens.

Ass-u-me, huh? An unloaded gun in the trunk requires no CPL. Because it's loaded and he's got it on his side, exposed, while in the mall (again, something I've done), there's absolutely NO reason to assume he, at one point in the day, was concealing the pistol, legally or otherwise.

Folks need to consider the totality of the circumstances on all this before they start conjuring up ways to make a point about OC.

That's a two-way street, bub.

[MLG]

Please reread what he said and what I said.....secondary issue or not. If he got there by vehicle and the police could prove he did, he sure as hell had better cough up the CPL and Drivers license.

I did as you suggested and now I request that you do the same for my post which you ignored everything I said except for the one clip that you took out of context.

The man legally transported the firearm and was in possesion of his DL and CPL while carrying concealed and would be able to produce it if required. If he is no longer CCing but OCing he can leave his DL and CPL in the car and OC.

Considering your post:
Done Deal said, "If people keep pushing the no ID thing, how long is it going to be before somebody introduces legislation that requires anybody in possession of a firearm to have ID with them?"
Seems that at this point you agree that ID is not required for OC but not something you agree with it.


And, just for the record....in this case....you probably were lucky that you had your ID and your CPL because cameras recorded you getting out of that vehicle with a loaded gun on your hip didn't they?
What has luck got to do with this. I carry my wallet every day... Luck has nothing to do with it!


DD,

Not trying to be argumentative but I don't see your example is applicable.

If I:
1. Drive to the Mall and have my DL and CPL in the Cup Holder of my car
2. Get out of my car with my exposed and holstered pistol
3. Go into the Mall while I Openly Carry my sidearm (assuming it's a mall that allows weapons in the first place, Westwood was posted although maybe not well)
4. Get stopped as Kimber did
5. State that I do not have Id nor am I required to do so because blah, blah, blah.
6. The gun is not concealed, so he does not need the CPL at that point.
7. The very second that he returns and re enters his car, the weapon is considered concealed but his CPL and DL are there for him to offer as proof that he is legally carrying.

What are you suggesting that he can be charged with in the Mall? No DL? If so, that's a secondary issue and another discussion. (this should not have bee a new paragraph but should have been appended to the previous sentance, as I have done in this post)
The rest of my post is clipped

[Kimberguy1371]

Actually as of late, i keep my DL & my CPL in the ash tray of the car, because I do not carry a wallet, and my CPL is in 3 pieces at the moment... If I only conceal in the car why would I need it else where?

[SADAacp]

Actually as of late, i keep my DL & my CPL in the ash tray of the car, because I do not carry a wallet, and my CPL is in 3 pieces at the moment... If I only conceal in the car why would I need it else where?

Only if you were OC in a CPZ.

[Done Deal]

Actually as of late, i keep my DL & my CPL in the ash tray of the car, because I do not carry a wallet, and my CPL is in 3 pieces at the moment... If I only conceal in the car why would I need it else where?

You wouldn't except as mentioned.

But, clear a matter or two up for us would you please?

In this particular instance, did you or did you not drive to the mall with a pistol concealed in the car?

[Fatboycykes]

In this particular instance, did you or did you not drive to the mall with a pistol concealed in the car?

Irrelevent.

[MLG]

You wouldn't except as mentioned.

But, clear a matter or two up for us would you please?

In this particular instance, did you or did you not drive to the mall with a pistol concealed in the car?

What difference does it make? In his first post he said the following:

"So I handed him my military ID, he then asked if I had a drivers licence, I fished around my pocket for it... didn't want to pull the CPL... and I gave it to him."

In other words he had his DL, CPL and Military ID... Even though he didn't need them in the Mall but would need them when driving... Right???

[Kimberguy1371]

What difference does it make? In his first post he said the following:

"So I handed him my military ID, he then asked if I had a drivers licence, I fished around my pocket for it... didn't want to pull the CPL... and I gave it to him."

In other words he had his DL, CPL and Military ID... Even though he didn't need them in the Mall but would need them when driving... Right???

spot on dear fellow.

To clear up the completely irrelevant dispute, yes i drove yes i was carrying concealed in the car, when I got out, I took my suit jacket off, and went into the mall

[ltdave]

i went to the mall once...

my DL was in the car as was my CPL...

i got there (to the mall) went in and wandered around the food court OC for about 5 minutes or so. i was stopped by a security guard who then had me talk with the local county gendarme. i was asked for my CPL and ID. i said i didnt have it with me...

he wanted to see it so we went to the car. it sat there as we waited for my wife to come out from shopping. being less than 3 miles, i had WALKED to meet my wife for lunch...

what did i need any ID or CPL for?






didnt really happen but just because your car is there, is NOT PROOF that YOU drove it there...

[Done Deal]

double tap

[Done Deal]

To clear up the completely irrelevant dispute, yes i drove yes i was carrying concealed in the car, when I got out, I took my suit jacket off, and went into the mall

Had you understood what I had posted earlier, you should not have drawn the conclusion that what I had alluded to was irrelevant. Thanks for clearing up the bit about carrying in the car and getting out of the car with a loaded gun and NOT having to load up in the parking lot to go for your OC stroll.


Now if some of you other folks still don't get it....whatever.....keep on trying to argue it for all I care....

[Done Deal]

i went to the mall once...

my DL was in the car as was my CPL...

i got there (to the mall) went in and wandered around the food court OC for about 5 minutes or so. i was stopped by a security guard who then had me talk with the local county gendarme. i was asked for my CPL and ID. i said i didnt have it with me...

he wanted to see it so we went to the car. it sat there as we waited for my wife to come out from shopping. being less than 3 miles, i had WALKED to meet my wife for lunch...

what did i need any ID or CPL for?






didnt really happen but just because your car is there, is NOT PROOF that YOU drove it there...

Your bits and pieces of what took place are so disjointed that reading just them totally presents an inaccurate account of what did take place. What was your logic in doing that?

[ltdave]

What was your logic in doing that?

what do YOU care about logic?

[MLG]

DD,

For me, your posts that have been disjointed and confusing.

For the life of me, I read some of your posts and wonder if you are reading the posts or just sifting through some of them to find minutia that you seem to focus on and exploit. It seems the minutia that you focus on becomes the object for your posts, all the while, ignoring the actual focus of the topic.

You state, "go back and read what was said and read what I said" (paraphrased).... I've done exactly that and get the same results.

The thread was very interesting to me and I found your posts to be disappointing and distracting. As a result, I feel that I contributed to the junk in this thread by trying to offer my understanding of the event.

I apologize to all the others that might have found my posts distracting. I'll try to refrain from all other posts in this thread, as I have said my piece.

[Clipper]

...Hey, guys! Now that he's not a mod anymore, you can add DD to your ignore list! It's gonna make my MGO experience soooooooo much more enjoyable...:banana:

[ghostrider]

DD,

For me, your posts that have been disjointed and confusing.

For the life of me, I read some of your posts and wonder if you are reading the posts or just sifting through some of them to find minutia that you seem to focus on and exploit. It seems the minutia that you focus on becomes the object for your posts, all the while, ignoring the actual focus of the topic.

You state, "go back and read what was said and read what I said" (paraphrased).... I've done exactly that and get the same results.

The thread was very interesting to me and I found your posts to be disappointing and distracting. As a result, I feel that I contributed to the junk in this thread by trying to offer my understanding of the event.

I apologize to all the others that might have found my posts distracting. I'll try to refrain from all other posts in this thread, as I have said my piece.
Your catching on.

[Done Deal]

what do YOU care about logic?

Oh, I had so hoped that you might get around to demonstrating a touch of it.

How illogical of me....

[Done Deal]

...Hey, guys! Now that he's not a mod anymore, you can add DD to your ignore list! It's gonna make my MGO experience soooooooo much more enjoyable...:banana:

Crawl back in your hole and play with your dancing fruit....

[Done Deal]

DD,

For me, your posts that have been disjointed and confusing.

For the life of me, I read some of your posts and wonder if you are reading the posts or just sifting through some of them to find minutia that you seem to focus on and exploit. It seems the minutia that you focus on becomes the object for your posts, all the while, ignoring the actual focus of the topic.

You state, "go back and read what was said and read what I said" (paraphrased).... I've done exactly that and get the same results.

The thread was very interesting to me and I found your posts to be disappointing and distracting. As a result, I feel that I contributed to the junk in this thread by trying to offer my understanding of the event.

I apologize to all the others that might have found my posts distracting. I'll try to refrain from all other posts in this thread, as I have said my piece.

Ok, I will try and make it real simple for you.

Not wise to get out of car with gun without having DL/CPL to show officer if requested.

Not wise to get out of car at mall and load up your gun and go strolling into mall and then refuse ID.

So, as you are distracted by simple logic....your failed attempts to interject understanding in the thread remain just that....failed attempts.

I can't help it if you don't care that somebody might get themselves all jammed up believing some of the BS that was posted on this thread. Oh well.... thank goodness more and more folks are getting CPL's for the sake of discretion.

[zigziggityzoo]

thank goodness more and more folks are getting CPL's for the sake of discretion.

Most of us OC folks get the CPLs to make it easier to OC. :P

[ltdave]

Not wise to get out of car with gun without having DL/CPL to show officer if requested.

i never read that that was what transpired...

didnt he say he had the DL and CPL in the car?

I can't help it if you don't care that somebody might get themselves all jammed up believing some of the BS that was posted on this thread.

i never said i dont care...

with that in mind we are ALL adults here. i can no more dictate what you SHOULD DO than i can the wall...

you live YOUR life and we will live OUR lives...

[Leader]

Ok, I will try and make it real simple for you.

Not wise to get out of car with gun without having DL/CPL to show officer if requested.
However if you get out of your car with an openly carried pistol and there is NO police officer watching, you may lock your DL & CPL in your vehicle as you no longer need them.

Not wise to get out of car at mall and load up your gun and go strolling into mall and then refuse ID.
However many people have been doing this for quite sometime now and in most cases, NO ONE has called the police. People have openly carried without incident many times.

So, as you are distracted by simple logic....your failed attempts to interject understanding in the thread remain just that....failed attempts.
To date, you have not offered anything that even resembles logic so you have NO room to say anything.

I can't help it if you don't care that somebody might get themselves all jammed up believing some of the BS that was posted on this thread. Oh well.... thank goodness more and more folks are getting CPL's for the sake of discretion.
The only BS that I see in this thread has come from YOU.

[MLG]

Ok, I will try and make it real simple for you.

Not wise to get out of car with gun without having DL/CPL to show officer if requested.

Not wise to get out of car at mall and load up your gun and go strolling into mall and then refuse ID.

So, as you are distracted by simple logic....your failed attempts to interject understanding in the thread remain just that....failed attempts.

I can't help it if you don't care that somebody might get themselves all jammed up believing some of the BS that was posted on this thread. Oh well.... thank goodness more and more folks are getting CPL's for the sake of discretion.
This is exactly what I mean, you took bits and pieces of the various posts and put your own pitiful little spin on them. You ignored all the information that other readers seemed to have no problem in understanding. You rant about Needing a DL and a CPL while walking around in the mall. Then you try to talk about simple logic? You wouldn't know logic, simple or otherwise, if it bit you on the butt.

I've seen you do this in a number of other threads and it gets old... You might spend a little time looking for the guy that pisses on your cheerios every morning. If you caught him you might be capable of having a good day once in awhile.

[Done Deal]

This is exactly what I mean, you took bits and pieces of the various posts and put your own pitiful little spin on them. You ignored all the information that other readers seemed to have no problem in understanding. You rant about Needing a DL and a CPL while walking around in the mall. Then you try to talk about simple logic? You wouldn't know logic, simple or otherwise, if it bit you on the butt.

I've seen you do this in a number of other threads and it gets old... You might spend a little time looking for the guy that pisses on your cheerios every morning. If you caught him you might be capable of having a good day once in awhile.


You, you, you. Lemme tell you this. You don't seem to be demonstrating many reading comprehension skills. I didn't ignore what other readers posted, and that is precisely why those other readers that misinterpreted what the OP said happened, and what actually happened, and what advice I provided.

I see how it is for you. You don't seem to get it so you go off on a rant and accuse me of all sorts of off the wall shit just to stroke your own ego.

I live a very pleasant life....and get alot of laughs out of ignorant posts like yours. I think you momma should have put you on your tummy more when you were an infant....

[dougwg]

This is exactly what I mean, you took bits and pieces of the various posts and put your own pitiful little spin on them. You ignored all the information that other readers seemed to have no problem in understanding. You rant about Needing a DL and a CPL while walking around in the mall. Then you try to talk about simple logic? You wouldn't know logic, simple or otherwise, if it bit you on the butt.

I've seen you do this in a number of other threads and it gets old... You might spend a little time looking for the guy that pisses on your cheerios every morning. If you caught him you might be capable of having a good day once in awhile.

See what I've been dealing with....sigh.

[Done Deal]

See what I've been dealing with....sigh.

Somebody been pizzin in your Cheerios too?

[Done Deal]

Most of us OC folks get the CPLs to make it easier to OC. :P


Considering the complexities of vehicular travel, that makes perfect sense.

And, since some of the posters on this thread didn't seem to comprehend what took place according to the OP, they apparently missed the importance of considering the ramifications of different things that may have occurred.

I guess it is too much to ask for people to properly interpret what they read in these threads....and I would hate to see somebody get jammed up as a result.

Instead of clarifying the situation, folks seem to get off on giving me grief. Oh well....they can even switch hands too for all I care.

[Fatboycykes]

properly interpret

Isn't that an oxymoron?

[Done Deal]

Isn't that an oxymoron?

For some folks it certainly appears to be.

[RDak]

I don't know if this was answered but:

If you OC in area you got to by driving in your car, isn't a CPL required for transporting a handgun other than to a gunsmith, gun shop, gun range or hunting, etc.?

Driving with a handgun to an area for the mere purpose of open carrying in that arrived at "area" is prohibited without a CPL isn't it?

Edit: What I mean is: Aren't you prohibited from transporting a handgun in your car with the ultimate intent of open carrying, unless you have a CPL, which would allow you to transport the handgun in the first place?

[dougwg]

I don't know if this was answered but:

If you OC in area you got to by driving in your car, isn't a CPL required for transporting a handgun other than to a gunsmith, gun shop, gun range or hunting, etc.?

Driving with a handgun to an area for the mere purpose of open carrying in that arrived at "area" is prohibited without a CPL isn't it?

Edit: What I mean is: Aren't you prohibited from transporting a handgun in your car, for the purpose of open carrying, without a CPL?

no

[RDak]

I never knew that. Thank you for the info.

I always thought there were only certain specified reasons to transport a handgun in a car for non-CPL holders. And those specified reasons never mentioned open carry, etc.

[dougwg]

(b) “Lawful purpose” includes the following:
(i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
(ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.
(iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.
(iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency or for the purpose of having a law
enforcement official take possession of the weapon.
(v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or sale.
(vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge of firearms is
permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.
(vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted
by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

Without defining the word "includes" within this statute we and they must use the dictionary definition which is:

Main Entry: in·clude
Pronunciation: \in-ˈklüd\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): in·clud·ed; in·clud·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin includere, from in- + claudere to close — more at close
Date: 15th century
1 : to shut up : enclose
2 : to take in or comprise as a part of a whole or group
3 : to contain between or within <two sides and the included angle>
— in·clud·able or in·clud·ible \-ˈklü-də-bəl\ adjective
synonyms include, comprehend, embrace, involve mean to contain within as part of the whole. include suggests the containment of something as a constituent, component, or subordinate part of a larger whole <the price of dinner includes dessert>. comprehend implies that something comes within the scope of a statement or definition <his system comprehends all history>. embrace implies a gathering of separate items within a whole <her faith embraces both Christian and non-Christian beliefs>. involve suggests inclusion by virtue of the nature of the whole, whether by being its natural or inevitable consequence <the new job involves a lot of detail>.

This "law" does not need to list every single legal "reason". The above are simply suggestions of examples.

BTW: Open Carry isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in Michigan law.
In America, unless specifically disallowed, an act is by default, LEGAL.

Think of it this way, it's legal to wear green on Monday, but there is no law stating it's legal is there?

[7.62 Nato]

In America, unless specifically disallowed, an act is by default, LEGAL.

Think of it this way, it's legal to wear green on Monday, but there is no law stating it's legal is there?

Well I would never wear green on Monday. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's smart to do it. Anybody that would wear green on Monday is just baiting and looking for attention and shouldn't cry when they get called out for it ! ;-)



Is this the spot I put the LOL or something ?

[RDak]

Thanks Doug. Subparagraph (vii) is what I was not aware of.

I've read that part of the statute about 1 guzillion times but subparagraph (vii) never sunk in. Duh! :oops:

Thanks again!!

[dougwg]

BTW, that part is relatively new and many many people and LEO don't know about it.

[who dat]

I would bet there are some overzealous prosecutors who would love to interpret that one. Where permitted is not the same as where not prohibited.

[RDak]

Could be Who Dat.

Doug: Nah, I read that statute back in February just before I applied for my CPL. Just missed that subparagrah.

[dougwg]

I would bet there are some overzealous prosecutors who would love to interpret that one. Where permitted is not the same as where not prohibited.

Agreed

Just for discussion sake the counter part to that interpretation is that it is permitted and here is the law.

STATE CONSTITUTION (EXCERPT)
CONSTITUTION OF MICHIGAN OF 1963


§ 6 Bearing of arms.

Sec. 6.

Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.


History: Const. 1963, Art. I, § 6, Eff. Jan. 1, 1964
Former Constitution: See Const. 1908, Art. II, § 5.

[who dat]

...subject only to common sense controls...whatever the heck those are.:thdown: