****OC in Detroit TODAY!*****

[dougwg]

Who: M.O.C.
What: Sidewalk March
Where: The corner of Clinton and Beuabian Map(Downtown Detroit) MAP (http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTExNmIycG51BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLWJ1dHRvbgRzbGsDbGluaw--#mvt=m&lat=42.336267&lon=-83.043458&zoom=18)
Why: Opposition of Tyranny
When: 5-4-2009
5PM-6PM

What to Bring:
Your Sidearm
MSP Legal Updates (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/Legal_Updates_185809_7.pdf) printed out (66, 68 )
LEO Information Packs (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html)
Cameras
Video Cameras
Voice Recorders


Origin:
Veritas wrote:
Maybe I'm stirring the pot... but whatever: Last night, I got into discussion with an off duty LEO. Great guy... personable, likable, all that jazz. However he made a comment about my holster (I was at a bar; left the pistol properly secured and stowed in my friends vehicle). He asked if I walk around with my gun on my hip. I affirmed that I normally do. Here is where the 45 minute debate began. I'll spare the details, but the punchline is that he couldn't be MORE wrong about his positions. His contention is that, as a cop, he has authority to stop anyone for any reason and demand ID... "especially" if they're carrying a weapon. His notion was that demanding ID from someone, and arresting them if they fail to produce it, is his lawful duty because carrying a gun is suspicious. However, he could not define exactly what made the person suspicious. I tried to use analogies to help him realize how ridiculous that sounded. I equated stopping a man with a gun to stopping a man wearing a Turban... unwarranted and prejudicial suspicions about the person matter not when they are merely enjoying their Constitutional freedoms.

Anyways... much more was said and discussed; he just wasn't getting it so I decided to end the discussion. However, he left me with a challenge: To "come to his city" while openly carrying and refuse to show ID when stopped. I accepted the challenge. So here's the deal: Monday, between the hours of 5 and 6, outside the county jail on Clinton and Beuabian (Downtown Detroit), I will be walking down the street openly carrying. The LEO works in the building on that day and will be on lunch between those hours and guarantees that an officer will stop me. He further asserts that upon refusing to show ID and answer questions about where I'm coming from or going, that I will be arrested.

I've got a pretty clear calender up until Thursday so I've got the time to fight this if necessary. My friend is driving me (so I don't have to worry about being towed) and will be documenting with a camcorder. I tell you folks here just as a heads up. I'll report back after it's done. I honestly don't expect to be arrested... but if I am, I will make my point in court and hopefully more officers in that city become better informed about the law and civil liberties.

[RifleGuy]

I am trying to clear my schedule right now; if I can reschedule a couple of appointments I will be joining the festivities.

I'll be the fat guy hobbling on a cane.

[dougwg]

Would love to have you there RG.

If you like we could car pool, just stop by the shop if you have time.

[who dat]

OC in Detroit, huh? Please be sure to post the arrest sheets showing the charges...and also the hospital admittance forms showing the injuries.

There are reasons I will never set foot in Detroit. Good luck.

[dougwg]

Quite silly pessimist. :slap:

[Just A Girl]

[QUOTE=dougwg][SIZE="4"]
Why: Opposition of Tyranny

dougwg
I appreciate your point of view . . but "opposition of tyranny" . . isn't this a little melodramatic . . even for you?
:?:

[gjgalligan]

OC in Detroit, huh? Please be sure to post the arrest sheets showing the charges...and also the hospital admittance forms showing the injuries.

There are reasons I will never set foot in Detroit. Good luck.



:yeahthat:

[RifleGuy]

Would love to have you there RG.

If you like we could car pool, just stop by the shop if you have time.
What time will you be leaving the shop?

[Joeywhat]

It's too bad Todd still has my CZ...I'd look pretty dumb trying to OC a .32 auto :laughing:

[joe_robi]

im sure one of the other guys that will be there would have an extra.

[Shooter McNasty]

Can I wave a Rebel Flag??

[dougwg]

What time will you be leaving the shop?

4:15- 4:30

With traffic I think closer to 4:15 would be better.

[dougwg]

It's too bad Todd still has my CZ...I'd look pretty dumb trying to OC a .32 auto :laughing:

You can carry my S&W .38 spl if you like.

I'll be carrying something else :scratch:

[dougwg]

Can I wave a Rebel Flag??

It's a free country.

[dougwg]

I made up some stickers that we should wear just incase.

They read:
Attention
You are being audio
and video recorded

[BOSS302]

Good luck!!

Did you let the police know ahead of time?

[uno_eye]

i hope someone is gonna be there reporting via ipone so we can get some updates.

[dougwg]

Good luck!!

Did you let the police know ahead of time?

Yes.

[Joeywhat]

Tell us how it goes. Today's not looking good for me anyways...but once I get that CZ back I'm going to need to show it off a bit :mrgreen:

[RifleGuy]

My apologies, gentlemen, for being late (got lost downtown D) but it was a pleasure meeting you, and good seeing you again Doug.

[dougwg]

Good seeing you too again RG!

Sorry you couldn't make it out Joe.

Here is a report from the original guy.

Veritas wrote:

[Joeywhat]

Well, sounds like a fun time...too bad I couldn't have gone. I would've brought my good camera, too.

[burgundyyears]

Good seeing you too again RG!

Sorry you couldn't make it out Joe.

Here is a report from the original guy.

Veritas wrote:

All's well that ends well, but Detroit remains a stinking cesspool of corruption and despair that I won't visit voluntarily. :torch:

[dougwg]

All's well that ends well, but Detroit remains a stinking cesspool of corruption and despair that I won't visit voluntarily. :torch:

Believe me, I understand.

The reason I went was simply to stand with a fellow gun owner.

[TFin04]

Looks like that officer in the bar was right afterall...

Maybe not on the arrest part, but they sure as hell gave it all they had.

[Clipper]

Sounds like '1-800 Lee Free' time...

[Rugergirl]

Nice of Officer Friendly to warn that "bad things will happen to you".
I'd take that as a threat not a warning, and I'd be pretty ticked off.
I wish I'd known a day or two in advance, I would have loved to come down and videotape the adventure.
PM KenKD for info on the FOIA procedures, he just got some video/audio of a stop he was involved in, I'm sure he can give you the particulars.

"His city"? When did he take ownership and start writing his own laws?

[Joeywhat]

Hopefully he's got the time and scratch to take the officer to task.

[zigziggityzoo]

This department needs a good thrashing by the FBI's Color-of-Law investigation dept., in my opinion.

[kdogg]

Best damn story I've heard in ages.

I hope you document this online and forward is to those police. ;P

[Joeywhat]

I'm curious, what did they (the police) have to say about the others OCing there?

[dougwg]

When Ghostrider and myself walked through 10 or so officer standing outside they didn't say anything to me. Yes I was OCing....I was VERY OCing ;-)

I heard a citizen say something to a female deputy about ccw or cpl and the law so I turned around and asked if he was from OCDO which he said "no". A gentleman walked toward me and I said hello and offered my hand to shake his and he gave me his name and said something to the effect of 'your group is over there'. I said thank you and we walked over to where Veritas and 2 other guys were standing. We got there 15 min's too late. :(

[Joeywhat]

Were you wearing the deagle today? ;)

[dougwg]

no, not the deagle :)

sig229 in a drop leg with 4 extra mags :whacko:

[RifleGuy]

Looks like that officer in the bar was right afterall...

Maybe not on the arrest part, but they sure as hell gave it all they had.
Yes indeed, they gave it their all, but their "all" was still insufficient to subjugate the rights of a free man who had done no wrong. In the end, the cops walked away appearing foolish and ignorant, and not so different from the playground bully.

Thank you, Veritas, for making a stand that we should all make, and thank you, Sir, for being willing to make that stand whether or not any of us were there for support.

Regards,

RG

[Done Deal]

"As he began to figure it out, I warned him that the weaponw as loaded, chambered, and did not have an external safety. He unchambered the round, disconnected the magazine, and locked open the slide."


Hmmmm....that cop must have been good, I never have been able to unchamber a round before I remove the magazine.




Sounds to me like the guy got what he was looking for....special attention. I can certainly think of better ways to spend a day. What positive steps did this take for gun owners again?

[zigziggityzoo]

Sounds to me like the guy got what he was looking for....special attention. I can certainly think of better ways to spend a day. What positive steps did this take for gun owners again?

This is just the beginning. The positive steps come when the FBI and court systems put DPD in their place, potentially fire an officer or two, and buy Veritas a new collection and a new safe to go with it.

[SEMIEMT]

"As he began to figure it out, I warned him that the weaponw as loaded, chambered, and did not have an external safety. He unchambered the round, disconnected the magazine, and locked open the slide."

Hmmmm....that cop must have been good, I never have been able to unchamber a round before I remove the magazine.

Sounds to me like the guy got what he was looking for....special attention. I can certainly think of better ways to spend a day. What positive steps did this take for gun owners again?


Wow an entire worthless post filled with nothing but smart ass sarcasm.. What positive steps did this take? It helped to uphold YOUR GD right to do what is allowed under the law and put the police in their place.

You sir, are part of the problem not the solution...:banana:





On another note GREAT JOB guys, those police in that city think they are above the law. Nobody follows the rules in Detroit including the police, I spent 3 years every night working in that hellhole. Most of them are crooked as hell and have a huge God complex.

I found out from Doug you guys were going up there but it was in the afternoon and no time to get someone to get kids off the bus etc. Your only huge mistake was not having a recorder on you at the time to get it all on tape. I hope your planning on taking this through legal channels?

Why don't we have a massive planned event at this location in the future? Is there a park or anything near there?

[Kimberguy1371]

This if form the OP Please edit. Original MOC post (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/25453-5.htm)

Alright folks... I've spent a couple hours weighing options. And I know I'm going against my previous stance when I make the following request; but many of you make sense and I think you're right.

My request: Kindly go back and edit your posts to remove any quotes from me regarding specific information about my incident. In return, I will replace my original post with the complaint letter and FOIA request that I intend to send to the proper parties. They should adequately sum everything up so that everyone will still be aware of what happened.

In my letter to the Chief, I tried to include as many details as I could muster. This thread (and the one that preceded it) was not a fair depiction of my recollection... because naturally your going to remember more and more things as you sit and stew about it.

So folks... once again, kindly edit those quotes. If anyone is unwillingly, at least give me a heads up so I can be aware.

Thanks much!

[Clipper]

Wow an entire worthless post filled with nothing but smart ass sarcasm.. What positive steps did this take? It helped to uphold YOUR GD right to do what is allowed under the law and put the police in their place.

You sir, are part of the problem not the solution...




Why don't we have a massive planned event at this location in the future? Is there a park or anything near there?

Oh, yeah...I want in on that...

[JKGirl]

wow. My hubby has had guns pulled on him while working in the city..... the cops didn't seem to care about that much.....never even showed up.

[SEMIEMT]

Oh, yeah...I want in on that...

I think about 20+ open carrying lawful gun owners showing up at some ghetto park and all having lunch would be a great thing.. Hell I would bring my family since it would be one of the safest parks in Detroit at that point.

They would throw an absolute (*&* fit if there were that many people in "their" city carrying like that. We could take a stroll along the sidewalk in front of the same place, before or after our picnic. Maybe even fax the police station a flier announcing our little get together.

They need to see not only legal channels exercised but also that "the people" will take them to task as well.

[Joeywhat]

What positive steps did this take for gun owners again?

Reinforced a right we Michiganders have, and put the DPD in their place...

[CyborgWarrior]

. What positive steps did this take for gun owners again?

My thoughts.
Open carry is currently legal and has it's place. But I can't help but feel that antics like this will quickly bring about a change to the law.

Keep knocking on the devils door, someone will answer.

[Joeywhat]

My thoughts.
Open carry is currently legal and has it's place. But I can't help but feel that antics like this will quickly bring about a change to the law.

Keep knocking on the devils door, someone will answer.

OK...and what's after that? Do you really think if we just let OC alone it will continue to be a right that we have? What happens once OC has become illegal, either due to no one ever doing it, or someone in charge getting butt hurt about it? Do you think the rest of your guns, and how you carry them will be safe?

It's an all or nothing game, folks. If you give the gun grabbers an inch they'll take a mile. Start giving up some of your freedoms and the rest will quietly come along.

[Garbo]

[QUOTE=SEMIEMT]I think about 20+ open carrying lawful gun owners showing up at some ghetto park and all having lunch would be a great thing.. Hell I would bring my family since it would be one of the safest parks in Detroit at that point. QUOTE]

I support the right OC even tho I rarely do it (believe there is a time and place). And in fact Detroit is one of the places I do it. But do you realize the potential trouble brewing in something like this if the SHTF? I'm not 100% positive but I'm fairly certain I had a round hit the road next to my car about a month ago in Detroit. But even if I'm wrong the point is If you're in the wrong area and they notice you hanging out there. Some moron will not be able to resist the temptation to take a shot at the group from 200 yards away in a vacant building or something. What can you do? Everyone open fire in that general direction? Too much risk of bad publicity for the cause IMO.

[ltdave]

What can you do? Everyone open fire in that general direction?

if that happens i want my rifle....

on a side note, i would have liked to gone too being laid off and all...

i didnt see the post until 30 minutes before the arranged time and im 65 miles out...

let me know next time...

[SEMIEMT]

[QUOTE=SEMIEMT]I think about 20+ open carrying lawful gun owners showing up at some ghetto park and all having lunch would be a great thing.. Hell I would bring my family since it would be one of the safest parks in Detroit at that point. QUOTE]

I support the right OC even tho I rarely do it (believe there is a time and place). And in fact Detroit is one of the places I do it. But do you realize the potential trouble brewing in something like this if the SHTF? I'm not 100% positive but I'm fairly certain I had a round hit the road next to my car about a month ago in Detroit. But even if I'm wrong the point is If you're in the wrong area and they notice you hanging out there. Some moron will not be able to resist the temptation to take a shot at the group from 200 yards away in a vacant building or something. What can you do? Everyone open fire in that general direction? Too much risk of bad publicity for the cause IMO.

LOL are you serious? :hide: Detroit is not THAT bad come on.. The 3 years I spent in Detroit were repo'ing and I didn't think it was that bad. You make it sound like Afghanistan and it's not like that at all. As a matter of fact this is JUST what we need to do.

From my little bit of life research, repo'ing in Detroit AND running rescue on an ambulance there as well it isn't all that bad. I think it would be extremely safe with a group of us there.:score:

[Jvanasjr]

where is the love...

I want to live in country were OCers and CCers can live together in harmony.

Dr King preach to us...

[RifleGuy]

...i didnt see the post until 30 minutes before the arranged time and im 65 miles out...
Slacker. If you would have drove really fast... :poke:

[dougwg]

Slacker. If you would have drove really fast... :poke:
LOL

[MLG]

I say BRAVO to VERITAS and everyone else that was involved in this event!

Some of you may know that I don't think open carry is the way to go but I do whole heartedly support your right to be able to do so.

The reaction of the police was to be sadly expected but I commend veritas for his stand. I do hope that the crap he went through will be richly compensated but there is so many layers of corruption and politics that it will not be easy, for sure.

Anyways, my hats off to all of you.

[Red Sector A]

Good seeing you too again RG!

Sorry you couldn't make it out Joe.

Here is a report from the original guy.

Veritas wrote:

Ok.. what happened? Why no details yet? It seems things went ok, but I wasnt here when the original guy posted so I dont know what happened?

[Done Deal]

Wow an entire worthless post filled with nothing but smart ass sarcasm.. What positive steps did this take? It helped to uphold YOUR GD right to do what is allowed under the law and put the police in their place.

You sir, are part of the problem not the solution...:banana:







Say what? If your are not capable of evaluating the worth of the mans post, it is because you only read what you wanted to read.

As far as I am concerned, his report of the facts leaves some doubt regarding his credibility. If someone testifying was full of shit like this guy appeared to be on the method of unloading a semi auto pistol, a reasonable person would have to ask themself what else did he say that lacked validity.

But, if you want to choose to ignore that, well sir, you can go right ahead.

Meanwhile, if I were in his shoes and planned for a few more minutes of fame....I betcha that he would be wise to want all record of his account of the incident to disappear so it doesn't come back to bite him in the ass on the witness stand.

From what I read, he went looking for trouble and found it....so, don't even give me this rights shit....there are better ways to promote change.

[mastiff]

Done Deal have we ever met?, and if not, have you ever carried in public ?
Not here to bust your ***, but don't you think that it would be in all of are best interests to support each other in our indeverse to promote firearm freedom !i have always supported a persons Right to work within the law, and to make the law bend to the will of the people.
The Man in detoilet WAS within his Rights what part of this did you miss ?
No anger in these statements just asking where you stand ?

[Done Deal]

Done Deal have we ever met?, and if not, have you ever carried in public ?
Not here to bust your ***, but don't you think that it would be in all of are best interests to support each other in our indeverse to promote firearm freedom !i have always supported a persons Right to work within the law, and to make the law bend to the will of the people.
The Man in detoilet WAS within his Rights what part of this did you miss ?
No anger in these statements just asking where you stand ?


I don't know if we have ever met unless you are a reincarnation of the big ass dog that my aunt had when I was a kid. Is your name Percy?

I have carried in public for years, both openly and concealed.

While I advocate individual and collective rights, I am not impressed by folks who for whatever reason, feel compelled to make a scene and then tell everybody about it. I just cannot see how those kind of incidents can be in the best interests of gun owners.

If you failed to miss out on the indicators that he was going for his fifteen minutes of fame....perhaps you should reread the post very slowly. And, while you are at it, try unloading the chamber of a semi auto without first removing the loaded magazine.....

[TFin04]

If someone testifying was full of shit like this guy appeared to be on the method of unloading a semi auto pistol, a reasonable person would have to ask themself what else did he say that lacked validity.

If you're discrediting him only on the method used to unload the gun, I suggest you re-read his words. While not the most efficient (or common) way of unloading a gun, it is still entirely possible to do. Maybe he mistyped in the heat of the moment, which is why he has taken it down to create a better flowing rendition of the events?

[Done Deal]

If you're discrediting him only on the method used to unload the gun, I suggest you re-read his words. While not the most efficient (or common) way of unloading a gun, it is still entirely possible to do. Maybe he mistyped in the heat of the moment, which is why he has taken it down to create a better flowing rendition of the events?

What all did you say that he mistyped in the heat of the moment? Did he type it at the scene or did he get home and decide to post up his accomplishment for everybody to read?

And why do you suppose he removed it again.....you call it a "better flowing rendition".....hmmmmm that sounds like a performance to me. Or, since folks are talking about going to court....paving the way for a recant.

Secondly, the man appeared to have an agenda so, yes, I would consider his motive because it developed his perspective for everything that he alleged took place.

I fail to see where he did a damned bit of good for gun owners....so please, enlighten me.

[dougwg]

I think the jack booted thug had an AGENDA also.

Who is more wrong? The cop acting outside the law or the citizen acting within the law?

Who's side are you on again?

[TFin04]

I fail to see where he did a damned bit of good for gun owners....so please, enlighten me.

I'm not out to fight that battle (and I agree with you...), but the fact is you're nitpicking his words trying to discredit anything he says. You clearly have an agenda as well.

And, while you are at it, try unloading the chamber of a semi auto without first removing the loaded magazine.....

Here's two ways...

http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a392/TFin04/?action=view&current=Unloading.flv

[firefox]

daMN sorry i missed this event. can whoever puts together events in detroit please pm me ahead of time? i often do not see all new posts.

[dougwg]

There was no time for this one.

[dougwg]

I'm not out to fight that battle (and I agree with you...), but the fact is you're nitpicking his words trying to discredit anything he says. You clearly have an agenda as well.



Here's two ways...

http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a392/TFin04/?action=view&current=Unloading.flv

OMG.... you mean DD was wrong?......whats next a Marxist in the whitehouse?

DD, MGO Nitpicking Expert :biggrin:

[mastiff]

DD just to inlighten you, any semi auto that has a reward slide lock as my HK does can be locked in the reward position, and then the mag removed afterwards. Even thou that would not be in the correct order, and as smart as the Detoilet popo are, it would not surprise me if that was the way they did IT>>> no correction for typo's made:cheers:

PS and yes my avaitar of mastiff is becouse i have mastiff's (English) no less 220Lbs + and yes i am bigger than the dogs, and no i am not compensating for any short comings (psyobable)

[TFin04]

Even thou that would not be in the correct order

There is no such thing as "correct order."

The key part in the unloading process is locking the slide to the rear and inspecting your chamber, not whether the magazine was removed before or after that occurrence.

I regularly lock the slide back first (esp while shooting competitions) because I can catch the round coming out, then grab the mag and have them both in one hand, instead of trying to do three things at once.

[who dat]

I'm not out to fight that battle (and I agree with you...), but the fact is you're nitpicking his words trying to discredit anything he says. You clearly have an agenda as well.



Here's two ways...

http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a392/TFin04/?action=view&current=Unloading.flv
I know you can empty the chamber before you drop the mag, but what 2 ways are in this vid? Both look the same to me.

Slide back, lock, drop. What am I missing?

[dougwg]

I know you can empty the chamber before you drop the mag, but what 2 ways are in this vid? Both look the same to me.

Slide back, lock, drop. What am I missing?

Drop the mag or catch the mag

[TFin04]

The first one the magzine is dropped before the slide is locked. This is how veritas first described it and what DD said was impossible. The second time the slide is locked to the rear first, then the mag came out.

[who dat]

Drop the mag or catch the mag
Got it. So there's really one way to unload the chamber with the mag still in. The 2 methods mentioned are what to do with the mag.

Edit...or lock or not lock the slide.

[dougwg]

Got it. So there's really one way to unload the chamber with the mag still in. The 2 methods mentioned are what to do with the mag.

Edit...or lock or not lock the slide.

Yes, but I care not to dwell on the small stuff.

[ultrarider]

Good seeing you too again RG!

Sorry you couldn't make it out Joe.

Here is a report from the original guy.

Veritas wrote:

What happened to the report? It can't be bad enough that you needed to remove it ................can it?

[zigziggityzoo]

Yes, but I care not to dwell on the small stuff.

Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things.


Sage advice from your friend,

-Zzz

[dougwg]

What happened to the report? It can't be bad enough that you needed to remove it ................can it?

Sorry snooze you loose.

The OP asked that it be removed.

[RifleGuy]

Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things.
-Zzz
HEY! I'm a sweaty thing, and I happen to LIKE being petted. By the female of the species, I might add. :brow:

Sigh. It's opportunity that's lacking...

[ghostrider]

For anyone interested, he intend to deliver a FOIA request in person at the same location.

Crap... well if people really want to go with me, then I suppose it's too much to ask to rally any troops this afternoon on such short notice?

Here's what I'll do: I'll check here periodically for the next few hours. If people are seriously interested in going/meeting me, please PM me and let me know if you can meet me in the city. I would want to meet downtown NO LATER than 4:30. If, by 3:00 pm, I can get just 2 or 3 people interested, game on. Otherwise, I'll push it back until Friday. Tomorrow is completely out of the question and Friday is going to be really tough... but I presume I can be there around 4:00 pm.

As for the location to meet... PM me for that, as well. Anyone who is interested in attending, but unable to reach me for any reason, post publicly here that you'd like to go and hopefully someone who has the location will PM you the details.

Without trying to sound like a buzzkill, my primary agenda here is in getting this letter delivered and I don't really want to wait around for 20 people to decide if they're rolling with me or not. But at the same time, I would very much like to extend the invitation. The extra support certainly could not hurt, in my opinion.


If your interested in attending, you can contact him here:http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=25453&forum_id=30&jump_to=423114#p423114

[jmlefler]

Ok.. what happened? Why no details yet? It seems things went ok, but I wasnt here when the original guy posted so I dont know what happened?


http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/25453-1.html

Carry on

[TFin04]

So there's really one way to unload the chamber with the mag still in.

There's only one way to unload the chamber regardless of the condition of the magazine... pull the slide back.

The OP said the cop "Unloaded the chamber, dropped the mag, and locked the slide to the rear." That is somewhat awkward to do, but possible. It is shown first in the video.

The second way is pretty common and much more fluid. Racking the slide and locking it all in one motion, then removing the mag.

Both ways unload the chamber before dropping the mag, which was the original issue brought up.

[Done Deal]

I'm not out to fight that battle (and I agree with you...), but the fact is you're nitpicking his words trying to discredit anything he says. You clearly have an agenda as well.



Here's two ways...

http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a392/TFin04/?action=view&current=Unloading.flv


My agenda?

Well sir, after spending more than a time or two in court, I happen to know for a fact that the testimony of a witness can be totally discredited because of "nitpicking" as you put it. And, as I already stated, that might very well be why the guy wanted his story removed from the internet.

Secondly, I viewed the link (only saw one way) but, since the story teller did not mention that the cop jacked a shell on the ground, I tend to doubt that the method demonstrated to unload was utilized.

[Done Deal]

OMG.... you mean DD was wrong?......whats next a Marxist in the whitehouse?

DD, MGO Nitpicking Expert :biggrin:


Sorry Doug....somebody really needs to focus on the facts it seems.

Did you watch the video. Did your story teller happen to mention a round getting jacked on the ground?

Lets just say....his story tended to raise an eyebrow.....and for good reason.

[Done Deal]

DD just to inlighten you, any semi auto that has a reward slide lock as my HK does can be locked in the reward position, and then the mag removed afterwards. Even thou that would not be in the correct order, and as smart as the Detoilet popo are, it would not surprise me if that was the way they did IT>>> no correction for typo's made:cheers:



But, that is not the way that the story teller reported it happening, and that is my point. What he said should have made readers wonder.

Has anybody ever heard jury instructions where the Judge informed the jury that if any portion of a witness testimony lacked credibility or truthfulness that the entire testimony could be disregarded?

That was and remains my point....

[Done Deal]

What happened to the report? It can't be bad enough that you needed to remove it ................can it?


Nothing new....somebody regrets posting what they did to get their fifteen minutes of fame....sometimes upon the advice of counsel.

[7.62 Nato]

:deadhorse:

[TFin04]

Secondly, I viewed the link (only saw one way) but, since the story teller did not mention that the cop jacked a shell on the ground, I tend to doubt that the method demonstrated to unload was utilized.
Nothing new here. Just Done Deal reeling backward trying to cover himself by adding information that isn't relevant to the argument because his original question was broken to pieces.

He didn't say the round fell or whether he caught it. Either is just as possible as the other. That doesn't affect your claim in the least. Are you that incapable of admitting you're wrong or that you mistyped?

We're all on the outside looking in on this thing. Nobody from this thread witnessed the event so nobody is in a position to critique or defend the guy.

[Garbo]

just got back around to this thread. yes I am serious. The three years you were there, what years were those? I do recall times that wernt all that bad myself. our jobs probly have a simolar amount of riskI found most squatters to be nice. But p[eople are more and more despirate now. Attitudes have changed. Come for a ride with me tomorrow. D-town all day.


[QUOTE=Garbo]

LOL are you serious? :hide: Detroit is not THAT bad come on.. The 3 years I spent in Detroit were repo'ing and I didn't think it was that bad. You make it sound like Afghanistan and it's not like that at all. As a matter of fact this is JUST what we need to do.

From my little bit of life research, repo'ing in Detroit AND running rescue on an ambulance there as well it isn't all that bad. I think it would be extremely safe with a group of us there.:score:

[Done Deal]

Nothing new here. Just Done Deal reeling backward trying to cover himself by adding information that isn't relevant to the argument because his original question was broken to pieces.

He didn't say the round fell or whether he caught it. Either is just as possible as the other. That doesn't affect your claim in the least. Are you that incapable of admitting you're wrong or that you mistyped?




My original question broken to pieces. What the hell does that mean?


Secondly, I only formed an opinion based upon what information the story contained. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to read into it then you go for it but....don't be slamming my take because you want to jump to conclusions based on alleged facts that were not presented in the post that got deleted.

Does that make me wrong because I chose not to? Certainly not in my book and most likely not in a court of law....

[zigziggityzoo]

My original question broken to pieces. What the hell does that mean?


Secondly, I only formed an opinion based upon what information the story contained. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to read into it then you go for it but....don't be slamming my take because you want to jump to conclusions based on alleged facts that were not presented in the post that got deleted.

Does that make me wrong because I chose not to? Certainly not in my book and most likely not in a court of law....

Man, you guys sure do get grumpy. :hide:

[Done Deal]

Man, you guys sure do get grumpy. :hide:

At least I am getting old so I have sort of an excuse....:biggrin:

[RevDerb]

At least I am getting old so I have sort of an excuse....:biggrin:

I sure hope that I never get that old. :cry: :shock: (although I very well be past you already.)

[Done Deal]

I sure hope that I never get that old. :cry: :shock: (although I very well be past you already.)

Well, you are probably older than me.

As I age, I find myself more intolerant of certain things, among them folks who are quick to judge without knowing the facts. It seems that society just doesn't care about being correct as much as it cares about being politically correct. Does that make any sense?

[dougwg]

Well, you are probably older than me.

As I age, I find myself more intolerant of certain things, among them folks who are quick to judge without knowing the facts. It seems that society just doesn't care about being correct as much as it cares about being politically correct. Does that make any sense?

BAWAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry, had to.

:naughty:

I'm gunna give you a nuggie at the annual meeting.

[Venator12]

Well, you are probably older than me.

As I age, I find myself more intolerant of certain things, among them folks who are quick to judge without knowing the facts. It seems that society just doesn't care about being correct as much as it cares about being politically correct. Does that make any sense?

Is OC politically correct, politically incorrect or just correct?

[Done Deal]

Is OC politically correct, politically incorrect or just correct?

Multiple choice answers usually have one or two more potential responses. Are those my only choices?

Anyway...of the three, you leave me no choice but to answer just correct but, I assume that you planned it that way.

As I have stated before, in and of itself, I see nothing wrong with OC.

But....some of the damned people that choose to do what they do under the guise of just following the law are absolutely none of the above.

[MINISFORME]

My thoughts.
Open carry is currently legal and has it's place. But I can't help but feel that antics like this will quickly bring about a change to the law.

Keep knocking on the devils door, someone will answer.


So don't take the authorities to task for violating someone's right to open carry?? I applaud all who took part in the OC in Detroit. If more and more folks had the guts to OC in a large city like Detroit , it would become more commonplace. And I bet ya crime would go down in those areas where folks where doing it.


Jeff

[MINISFORME]

Is OC politically correct, politically incorrect or just correct?

OC is correct. It is legal.

Jeff

[dougwg]

Veritas wrote:
Just a follow up:

I met with the Office of Chief Investigator in Detroit today. I went on the record with one officer, and off the record with another. The first officer, a Sergeant, took my typed complaint. As he skimmed it over, he seemed more interested and started taking information from me. After realizing that he heard of this issue last week, he then asked if I had time to make a formal statement regarding it. I complied and we went into another room to continue. He recorded our conversation as we combed through my written complaint, page by page. He took notes and seemed interested in discussing details of the officer's unprofessional language and the perceived threats that were made. I felt that he took the issue seriously and conducted the interview professionally. After we wrapped up, a higher ranking officer (we'll call him Good Cop) asked to speak with me in his office; which I obliged.

Good Cop assured me that the complaint was being taken seriously and that they would conduct a proper investigation by the book. I explained to him that I'm not after anyone's badges and that my objective only has two points... 1) To create awareness amongst DPD officers that open carry IS legal and to ensure proper protocol is followed when dealing with citizens who choose to exercise this liberty, and 2) to ensure that the officer(s) in my situation are made aware that their violations of my civil liberties are unacceptable.

Good Cop explained that he has been aware of the law for quite some time and that he condones a citizen's right to carry. He did, however, caution me on his perception of the tactical disadvantages of carrying openly, but asserted that he supports the lawful right to do so if the citizen wishes. And while he spoke for himself, he also admitted, but did not make excuses for, officers in his department that may not share the same knowledge. He was also very clear in explaining that he, nor his department, condone unprofessional conduct and that if it can be proven that it will be properly addressed. I was cautioned, however, that the language and threats used may become an issue of "he said, she said"... which I had already anticipated. But as I explained, the language and verbal conduct are not my primary qualms... it has more to do with the fact that I was unlawfully searched and then detained/arrested. We both agreed that this is provable and not a subject of debate, and so it will be addressed according to procedure.

To satisfy the aforementioned points: I was made aware of a memo, written by their attorney, that has already gone out to all precincts. This memo contradicts the long standing DPD policy regarding open carry and reiterates the proper law. This satisfies the initial intention of my campaign: To create proper awareness.

To satisfy my concerns about my unlawful search and detainment/arrest, I was assured that those involved would be compelled to give an on the record statement and that any improprieties would be addressed. We discussed the possibility of the investigation ending in that department and not going further... which I admitted would suffice. Again, my intention here is simply to inspire the officer(s) to think twice before they shake down another citizen. I can't help but think the reason for the behavior is due to lack of citizens standing up for themselves. Good Cop made no bones whatsoever about his disdain for the alleged behavior and made his opinions clear in that many good officers carry the brunt of the few who violate procedure. I agreed with him that most officers are probably on point with their departments Standard Operating Procedure and that a few may cross the line on occasion for a variety of reasons. My intention is to create awareness amongst such officers that they can be held liable for doing so; even if they get away with it this time, they may not next time.

Overall, we agreed, more than disagreed, on many points during our discussion. He mentioned that my letter was "thought provoking" and that the incident last Monday spurred emails to their office from officers across the city who were seeking clarification on the law. The rest of our conversation was pleasant and pertained to thoughts and perceptions of life in Michigan and Detroit. The entire interlude was satisfactory. In one corner, a long standing city wide policy has been changed. In the other, I was able to experience the sentiments of a department that investigates officers accused of misconduct and understand that they do truly care about the integrity and perceptions of the officers serving Detroit. This is in contrast to many of the opinions I've heard that state the opposite.

Since much of what we discussed was "man to man" and off the record, I'm sparing a lot of details. I will say, though, that I was encouraged to apply to become a DPD officer and that Good Cop liked my pistol. He said it's a great weapon and that the DPD are going to start issuing it as a department standard. :-P

This is all I have for now.

[MLG]

Thanks for posting the update Doug.

It was my general feeling in reading the update that the Detroit PD might be concerned about keeping the incident contained to their own little world via damage control and appeasement.

Does anyone else share the feeling?

Once again, thanks for posting and a BIG WELL DONE TO VERITAS!!

[dougwg]

Thanks for posting the update Doug.

It was my general feeling in reading the update that the Detroit PD might be concerned about keeping the incident contained to their own little world via damage control and appeasement.

Does anyone else share the feeling?

Once again, thanks for posting and a BIG WELL DONE TO VERITAS!!

I was thinking/feeling the same thing.

I too was born at night, just not last night.... if you know what I mean.

[who dat]

I was thinking/feeling the same thing.

I too was born at night, just not last night.... if you know what I mean.
My exact thoughts...already posted in the other thread about this.

And here they are...

As much as I want to jump up and down and congratulate Veritas for a job well done, there is one line in there that bothers me:

Quote:
We discussed the possibility of the investigation ending in that department and not going further... which I admitted would suffice.

It sounds like it may get swept under the rug by that statement. If the rest of the Good Cop's comments get passed to the other officers, then this is no worry.

One more thing, with the Legal Updates already stating everything you are trying to accomplish with DPD, why can't Good Cop just order all his officers to read the darn things?

[Rugergirl]

Great News, thanks for posting the update Doug.

[GAMEOVER]

"As he began to figure it out, I warned him that the weaponw as loaded, chambered, and did not have an external safety. He unchambered the round, disconnected the magazine, and locked open the slide."


Hmmmm....that cop must have been good, I never have been able to unchamber a round before I remove the magazine.




Sounds to me like the guy got what he was looking for....special attention. I can certainly think of better ways to spend a day. What positive steps did this take for gun owners again?

Unreal post.. what negative steps did this take for gun owners again? I see a responsable american excerisizing his god given right.

My thoughts.
Open carry is currently legal and has it's place. But I can't help but feel that antics like this will quickly bring about a change to the law.

Keep knocking on the devils door, someone will answer. We have nothing to fear. Its our right that they do not give us. Your are right about one thing.. keep knocking on the devils door and someone will answer :).

[Done Deal]

Unreal post.. what negative steps did this take for gun owners again? I see a responsable american excerisizing his god given right.



You see what you want to see. By the way, did you see the original version of what allegedly transpired as well?


OIC....

[GAMEOVER]

You see what you want to see. By the way, did you see the original version of what allegedly transpired as well?


OIC.... No but please feel free to elaborate. If your talking about the little challenge the cop gave him then so what AS LONG as he didnt break a single law im all for what this guy did.

[7.62 Nato]

:popcorn:

[GAMEOVER]

:popcorn:
lol this guy is trouble..

If theres something im missing please fill me in im still learning the law and do not have my cpl, yet. Im always willing to learn when im wrong but I honestly do not see a problem so far with what this guy did and I actually encourage it if they're legally able. I once read a right not excersized is a right lost.

So with all that said.. :medsmile:

[Done Deal]

lol this guy is trouble..

If theres something im missing please fill me in im still learning the law and do not have my cpl, yet. Im always willing to learn when im wrong but I honestly do not see a problem so far with what this guy did and I actually encourage it if they're legally able. I once read a right not excersized is a right lost.

So with all that said.. :medsmile:


What you appear to be lacking is the opportunity to have read the original version of what reportedly took place. It was removed and subsequently replaced with the latest, greatest dissertation.

So, what I am trying to get at is the premise of having or not having sufficient unbiased information upon which to attempt to draw conclusions.

Some folks prefer to have informed opinions....others don't seem to feel that is required. Take your pick....

[GAMEOVER]

What you appear to be lacking is the opportunity to have read the original version of what reportedly took place. It was removed and subsequently replaced with the latest, greatest dissertation.

So, what I am trying to get at is the premise of having or not having sufficient unbiased information upon which to attempt to draw conclusions.

Some folks prefer to have informed opinions....others don't seem to feel that is required. Take your pick....

Ah gotcha.. I did notice something was removed however I didnt pay it any attention. I gave my general opinion on what was the general situation.

[Done Deal]

Ah gotcha.. I did notice something was removed however I didnt pay it any attention. I gave my general opinion on what was the general situation.

No problem. That is one of the problems created by the ability to delete major portions of a thread after it has been replied to. In this particular case, it was the essence of much of the debate going on.

[CyborgWarrior]

We have nothing to fear. Its our right that they do not give us. Your are right about one thing.. keep knocking on the devils door and someone will answer :).

My point was about avoiding confrontation.
Bad press is not good, if you rub enough noses in it, the law might get changed.

But carry on, you have my support.

[Venator12]

No problem. That is one of the problems created by the ability to delete major portions of a thread after it has been replied to. In this particular case, it was the essence of much of the debate going on.

That's why it's nice to use the quote option, you can preserve the original post without having it edited.

[AMSProcessing]

My point was about avoiding confrontation.
Bad press is not good, if you rub enough noses in it, the law might get changed.

But carry on, you have my support.

There is NEVER any good press for gun owners. The major media, Libtard Blogs, The Brady Bunch, and most Libtard Congresscritters will ONLY spew negative information and "facts".

I've read both versions (the "quick" and the "polished"), and in both, the OP was walking past the PD/jail, passed several other officers without incident, and had a car full of undercover officers come up and harass him. The original reason given is because the OP sat next to an off-duty LEO the night before, and the LEO made the simple statement that he didn't care if it was legal, the guy would get arrested for OC. To demonstrate and ENFORCE his LEGAL ACTIONS, the OP decided to OC where and when he did. In doing so, he got roughed up, harassed and (illegally) detained for ACTING LEGALLY.

I don't honestly care about the OP's motivation. I care that a cop, charged with upholding the law, willfully and (apparently) malevolently harassed a peaceful, law-abiding citizen. This cop should be charged with a federal crime (IANAL, but unlawfully detaining someone is probably kidnapping). The department should be sued. And any cop that was there and helped the bad cop in any way out to be fired.

As far as the response of "if we make too big a stink, they'll make us illegal":

FRAK THAT!

When Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks fought for (non-enumerated, but still humane) civil rights, therer were probably people telling them the same thing. "Don't make a stink, they'll just crack down worse on us". Thankfully, they ignored the cowards and pressed on for their rights.

When our founding fathers fought for freedom, they had nay-sayers spouting the same line of crap. "If we tweak the British too hard, they'll send their army here and we'll be much worse off". Thankfully, they ignored the cowards and pressed for freedom.

We have a similar choice:
We have an enumerated right to keep and bear arms, God-given and formally recognized by our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. We have the same two choices those before us had: fight hard and rock the boat, or stay quiet and hope we don't lose any more ground.

I think it should be a simple choice: Fight hard. Rock the Boat. If we do nothing, we will end up with nothing. If we fight, at least it will be a heck of a ride. I'm not calling anyone here a coward (yet), because I understand the thoughts. It's ingrained from our upbringing - try to NOT be the one singled out in school, at home (among several siblings), or at work. Because things often go harder for those that are singled out, or stand out.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm tired of the infighting about whether this OP was "correct" to "draw out" the bad cop, when we should ALL be more concerned about seeing this bad cop dropped from teh force and maybe forced to spend a little time in jail (this would be one I wouldn't mind my tax dollars paying for the incarceration).

[GAMEOVER]

There is NEVER any good press for gun owners. The major media, Libtard Blogs, The Brady Bunch, and most Libtard Congresscritters will ONLY spew negative information and "facts".

I've read both versions (the "quick" and the "polished"), and in both, the OP was walking past the PD/jail, passed several other officers without incident, and had a car full of undercover officers come up and harass him. The original reason given is because the OP sat next to an off-duty LEO the night before, and the LEO made the simple statement that he didn't care if it was legal, the guy would get arrested for OC. To demonstrate and ENFORCE his LEGAL ACTIONS, the OP decided to OC where and when he did. In doing so, he got roughed up, harassed and (illegally) detained for ACTING LEGALLY.

I don't honestly care about the OP's motivation. I care that a cop, charged with upholding the law, willfully and (apparently) malevolently harassed a peaceful, law-abiding citizen. This cop should be charged with a federal crime (IANAL, but unlawfully detaining someone is probably kidnapping). The department should be sued. And any cop that was there and helped the bad cop in any way out to be fired.

As far as the response of "if we make too big a stink, they'll make us illegal":

FRAK THAT!

When Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks fought for (non-enumerated, but still humane) civil rights, therer were probably people telling them the same thing. "Don't make a stink, they'll just crack down worse on us". Thankfully, they ignored the cowards and pressed on for their rights.

When our founding fathers fought for freedom, they had nay-sayers spouting the same line of crap. "If we tweak the British too hard, they'll send their army here and we'll be much worse off". Thankfully, they ignored the cowards and pressed for freedom.

We have a similar choice:
We have an enumerated right to keep and bear arms, God-given and formally recognized by our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. We have the same two choices those before us had: fight hard and rock the boat, or stay quiet and hope we don't lose any more ground.

I think it should be a simple choice: Fight hard. Rock the Boat. If we do nothing, we will end up with nothing. If we fight, at least it will be a heck of a ride. I'm not calling anyone here a coward (yet), because I understand the thoughts. It's ingrained from our upbringing - try to NOT be the one singled out in school, at home (among several siblings), or at work. Because things often go harder for those that are singled out, or stand out.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm tired of the infighting about whether this OP was "correct" to "draw out" the bad cop, when we should ALL be more concerned about seeing this bad cop dropped from teh force and maybe forced to spend a little time in jail (this would be one I wouldn't mind my tax dollars paying for the incarceration).

Wow I really hope he has a good lawyer, is it possible for him to lose his 2A right for such an incident? the 'responsable' gun owners have a thing I like to call common sense. Not everyone has such a talent. I have a feeling this guy played out the worst possible scenario.

I wouldnt be suprised if they were narcotics officers, gang squad, or deff some special unit. Either way it doesnt matter and is downright scary for me to think that if they would do THIS would they unlawfully collect our firearms in the future.

This case must be won imo. Pick and choose your battles.. pick and choose. I dont have the resources to do such a thing in their legal sense.


You know I dont want to jump on any potential law enforcement here but even some of you have got to admit some of them let this job get to their head. The good ones though are some of the best people we have in society though.

[dfrak]

When Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks fought for (non-enumerated, but still humane) civil rights, therer were probably people telling them the same thing. "Don't make a stink, they'll just crack down worse on us". Thankfully, they ignored the cowards and pressed on for their rights.

When our founding fathers fought for freedom, they had nay-sayers spouting the same line of crap. "If we tweak the British too hard, they'll send their army here and we'll be much worse off". Thankfully, they ignored the cowards and pressed for freedom.

We have a similar choice:
We have an enumerated right to keep and bear arms, God-given and formally recognized by our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. We have the same two choices those before us had: fight hard and rock the boat, or stay quiet and hope we don't lose any more ground.


Well said.

Dan

[Done Deal]

We have an enumerated right to keep and bear arms, God-given and formally recognized by our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. We have the same two choices those before us had: fight hard and rock the boat, or stay quiet and hope we don't lose any more ground.

I think it should be a simple choice: Fight hard. Rock the Boat. If we do nothing, we will end up with nothing. If we fight, at least it will be a heck of a ride. I'm not calling anyone here a coward (yet), because I understand the thoughts. It's ingrained from our upbringing - try to NOT be the one singled out in school, at home (among several siblings), or at work. Because things often go harder for those that are singled out, or stand out.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm tired of the infighting about whether this OP was "correct" to "draw out" the bad cop, when we should ALL be more concerned about seeing this bad cop dropped from teh force and maybe forced to spend a little time in jail (this would be one I wouldn't mind my tax dollars paying for the incarceration).


God given eh? Got a source for that to share?

But, you could quote a little Isiah for one angle.

[7.62 Nato]

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[dougwg]

God given eh? Got a source for that to share?

But, you could quote a little Isiah for one angle.

Nitpicking.....

[Leader]

Tell me DD.
What parts that were left out are bothering you?
Was it the part about an off duty cop telling someone they would be illegally hassled for doing something legal in Detroit?
The fact that that cop was sitting in a bar drinking while most likely carrying a gun?
The fact that the OP really didn't believe that cops would actually violate his rights with NO reason at all?
His trying to prove that cops don't violate the law just to harass a citizen that is doing nothing wrong?
What was left out?

[AMSProcessing]

God given eh? Got a source for that to share?

But, you could quote a little Isiah for one angle.

Here's one:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
US Declaration of Independence

If you do ANY reading of the founding fathers, they believed the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights were provided by the Creator (God), which is why they are Rights - not privileges. I happen to believe the same thing.

If a "Right" is not granted by a higher authority than the government, then it is not a "Right", it is merely a privilege. If the government is the highest authority, then it can change the privileges that people have AT WILL. Individuals ARE subject to gov't authority, unless there is a valid HIGHER authority that surpasses the authority of the gov't. The founding fathers (as well as myself and others) believe this "higher" authority is God, often referred to as "The Creator". After all, the original Creator certainly has authority over His creations - including gov't. It is the belief that the Creator granted these rights, the founding fathers simply wrote them down on paper, and made sure everyone knew it.

I hope this helps :)

[Venator12]

Tell me DD.
What parts that were left out are bothering you?
Was it the part about an off duty cop telling someone they would be illegally hassled for doing something legal in Detroit?
The fact that that cop was sitting in a bar drinking while most likely carrying a gun?
The fact that the OP really didn't believe that cops would actually violate his rights with NO reason at all?
His trying to prove that cops don't violate the law just to harass a citizen that is doing nothing wrong?
What was left out?
I had an interesting talk with an off-duty DPD officer on Saturday and he said he would violate anybodies rights that he wanted to and doesn't give a damn about a lawsuit. He said he knows OC is legal he just doesn't like it, not in his town.

So here you have at least one Detroit officer with a dangerous attitude. Oh and he said that seeing me OC was scaring him.:crazy:

[MLG]

I had an interesting talk with an off-duty DPD officer on Saturday and he said he would violate anybodies rights that he wanted to and doesn't give a damn about a lawsuit. He said he knows OC is legal he just doesn't like it, not in his town.

So here you have at least one Detroit officer with a dangerous attitude. Oh and he said that seeing me OC was scaring him.:crazy:

Does not surprise me. There are a lot of thugs with authority and they really enjoy themselves at others expense. The news media ran into it and got it on tape when they were covering Kwame. Attitudes start at the top and filter down from there.

[hornet7722]

Better to be judged by 12 then to be carried by 6!

Cops are nothing by tax collectors with guns!

[Done Deal]

Here's one:

US Declaration of Independence

If you do ANY reading of the founding fathers, they believed the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights were provided by the Creator (God), which is why they are Rights - not privileges. I happen to believe the same thing.

If a "Right" is not granted by a higher authority than the government, then it is not a "Right", it is merely a privilege. If the government is the highest authority, then it can change the privileges that people have AT WILL. Individuals ARE subject to gov't authority, unless there is a valid HIGHER authority that surpasses the authority of the gov't. The founding fathers (as well as myself and others) believe this "higher" authority is God, often referred to as "The Creator". After all, the original Creator certainly has authority over His creations - including gov't. It is the belief that the Creator granted these rights, the founding fathers simply wrote them down on paper, and made sure everyone knew it.

I hope this helps :)

Somebody provide some basis in anything that indicates God gave anybody the right to keep and bear arms.

Granted, our founding fathers believe that God granted certain rights like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness but guns? I think that is a stretch.

Our Bill of Rights and Constitution are one thing but....God????? C'mon fellas, that is a bit of a stretch now....

[dougwg]

I just hung up the phone with God and he said he gave us the ability to invent guns so that we could open carry them to protect our selves.

Oh... and he said DD is a doody head.

[Done Deal]

Nitpicking.....

Oh thats right....whenever I question the validity of some of the wild azz assertions I have read of late....I am the one nitpicking.

Ok...so be it. I don't mind calling BS when I see it.

[One of Many]

Where does the Second Amendment say GUNS or FIREARMS? What it says is Keep and Bear ARMS. That word is not limited to guns, it also includes swords, pikes, daggers, maces, battle axes, spears and archery. Any individually carried and operated offensive or defensive weapon is included in the term, as well as armor to protect from the enemy's arms.

The right pre-existed the formation of our government, and was recognized by our government as such. The stated purpose of protecting that right was for self defense and defense of the Nation, State and Local government, from enemies domestic or foreign. It is stated as SECURITY of a Free State (not a level of government).

Inherent human nature forces people to engage in fight or flight responses when facing great danger. That human nature is an endowment by the creator of all nature. Since it is an endowment by the creator, it is a right that may not be unjustly limited or revoked by the government. If you don't believe in God, and object to the discussion on that basis, then you have bigger problems to worry about than whether or not the government can confiscate your ability to defend yourself from oppression or violence.

[Done Deal]

I just hung up the phone with God and he said he gave us the ability to invent guns so that we could open carry them to protect our selves.

Oh... and he said DD is a doody head.


Impressive...really impressive. How long did you spend dreaming up that nonsense to post?

My word....

[Done Deal]

If you don't believe in God, and object to the discussion on that basis, then you have bigger problems to worry about than whether or not the government can confiscate your ability to defend yourself from oppression or violence.

Oh for Pete's sake....where in the world did you ever get the notion that I do not believe in God?

Honestly, it is exactly that sort of poorly thought out implication that steers what could have been a meaningful discussion right down the tubes.

[a2revolver]

Keeping and bearing arms is not prohibited by God's laws, so it is therefore granted by God.

At least, that's the way i see it.

[dougwg]

Impressive...really impressive. How long did you spend dreaming up that nonsense to post?

My word....

Prove me wrong. :wink:

[zigziggityzoo]

Where does the Second Amendment say GUNS or FIREARMS? What it says is Keep and Bear ARMS. That word is not limited to guns, it also includes swords, pikes, daggers, maces, battle axes, spears and archery. Any individually carried and operated offensive or defensive weapon is included in the term, as well as armor to protect from the enemy's arms.

You're close. Arms, short for armaments, is defined in latin as the "Implements of War." This can be construed to mean anything from a can opener (P-38, anyone?) to an F-117 Nighthawk.

Carry on.

[pilotmg1501]

You're close. Arms, short for armaments, is defined in latin as the "Implements of War." This can be construed to mean anything from a can opener (P-38, anyone?) to an F-117 Nighthawk.

Carry on.


Wait...you guys don't all have fighter jets sitting in the hanger at the airport like I do?...

:door:

[Done Deal]

Wait...you guys don't all have fighter jets sitting in the hanger at the airport like I do?...

:door:

One man, one P38 in the right place and that fighter jet of yours will never get off the runway....

[ltdave]

Wait...you guys don't all have fighter jets sitting in the hanger at the airport like I do?...


no but i can get a V tailed B35 up in the air from AZO if needed, or a C182 from 76G. probably get a C172 from 76G as well but with an oil-prop at my disposal, why?

no one will get by MY planes with a P-38 because ive got a meat tenderizer to protect it...

[Fatboycykes]

Somebody provide some basis in anything that indicates God gave anybody the right to keep and bear arms.

Granted, our founding fathers believe that God granted certain rights like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness but guns? I think that is a stretch.

Our Bill of Rights and Constitution are one thing but....God????? C'mon fellas, that is a bit of a stretch now....


Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Considering there were no Glocks back then, a sword was pretty much the closest thing to a personal protection piece you could find.

Now if you want to debate the Bible or Jesus and the Trinity, I can't really help you.

[Done Deal]

Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Considering there were no Glocks back then, a sword was pretty much the closest thing to a personal protection piece you could find.

Now if you want to debate the Bible or Jesus and the Trinity, I can't really help you.

I am not enough of an expert to say one way or another what Jesus meant when he said that but, I do know that he put a stop to the use of a sword shortly thereafter and fixed the ear that was chopped off.

[Fatboycykes]

Feel free to do some then, if not you'll have to take my word I guess :) It's pretty clear that it was for self defense.

Jesus did then when Peter chopped off an ear of a soldier that was trying to arrest Jesus. Jesus stopped him and healed the soldier so that prophecy was fulfilled, so that He could be arrested.

[dougwg]

This thread is about OCing in Detroit 2 WEEKS ago, not if Jesus would carry a 1911 or Glock or nothing for protection.

Locked!

Oh, and if you're not a contributing member, click the link in my sig.

:whacko: