Muzzeloader question for a newbie

[protectionisamust]

I am getting ready to sight in my 50 cal TC triumph tomorrow and I will be shooting 150gr of triple seven with a 250gr shockwave bullet and a remmington 209 primer. (I was gonna go today, but the weather looks better tomorrow so I'm holding out until then)

My question is, how high do I sight in for at 100 yards to be able to hit out to say 175 or 200?

I only put my 4 power on top of it this year because I just don't have the funds to purchase a new scope this year.

I would think with the combo above, it should shoot pretty flat, so do you think say 2" high at 100 would put me right on out to 200?

The owners manual says this combo will shoot 2197 F.P.S and 2680 Ft. Lbs

I am new to muzzeloading and have never shot one. So any input with my questions above or anything else would be greatly appreciated. Anything you recommend besides running a patch down the barrel between every shot?
Maybe some insider information about muzzeloading?

[tondar]

You will probably find that 150grains of triple seven results in poor accuracy. That much pressure/heat can distort the plastic sabot which is the weak link with modern inlines. My recommendation: Start with 100grains (loose fffg will be more consistent then pellets and will deliver higher muzzle velocity). I personally only shoot Blackhorn 209. If 100 grains is giving you good groups then you can try increasing the charge and see what happens.

If using T7 yes you should clean between shots. This also gives time for the barrel to cool. Hot/Warm barrel will weaken the sabot and make group size increase. This is one of the most common reasons for bad groupings.

a 150yd zero will be about 2-3.5" high at 100 and still 5-7" low at 200 (estimate). I personally site in 1" high at 100. Unless you hunt the "prairies of michigan" you're more than likely going to be taking shots that are less than 100 yards.

[protectionisamust]

You will probably find that 150grains of triple seven results in poor accuracy. That much pressure/heat can distort the plastic sabot which is the weak link with modern inlines. My recommendation: Start with 100grains (loose fffg will be more consistent then pellets and will deliver higher muzzle velocity). I personally only shoot Blackhorn 209. If 100 grains is giving you good groups then you can try increasing the charge and see what happens.

If using T7 yes you should clean between shots. This also gives time for the barrel to cool. Hot/Warm barrel will weaken the sabot and make group size increase. This is one of the most common reasons for bad groupings.

a 150yd zero will be about 2-3.5" high at 100 and still 5-7" low at 200 (estimate). I personally site in 1" high at 100. Unless you hunt the "prairies of michigan" you're more than likely going to be taking shots that are less than 100 yards.

Tondar, thanks for the tips. I will start with 100gr today and see how that shoots. I just figured you would use more powder to get more accuracy out at longer distances plus having a higher ft. lbs upon impact when your shooting that type of distance. Thats why I'm asking because I've never done this type of shooting before.

Where I hunt in the Thumb, 200-300 yards is possible because of all the open farm land. I cannot tell you how many bucks went by 200 yards out and I'm left holding myself and watching as he leaves. Open day gun season, seems like everyone hunts the outside edge of the woodlots over looking the fields because the deer start running from woodlot to woodlot. Its only a matter-of-time before something is running by and then :sniper:


if anyone else has tips that have not been mentioned, please share.



.

[sourdough44]

Your 4x scope is fine, hopefully it's of O.K. quality. I agree I'd be in the 100-120 grns of 777. I would clean the gun before bedtime on the day I shot it. I would really try to put yourself where the shots are 150 yrds & under. You really want that shot at a standing still deer, this is to avoid wounding. Even in open country you can position yourself along travel corridors to do your best to get the range down. During daylight most deer crossing the open will be near full tilt. Your best chance of a good shot opportunity is the cover around the open areas, thick stuff at that.

[mechredd]

TC recommends 90 grains of powder with a 250 bullet for best accuracy.
Keep in mind that not all muzzeloaders like the same bullet/powder combo. My Triumph grouped about 8 inches at 100 yards using the same load that you asked about. I'm still trying to find a good powder and bullet combo for my rifle.

[protectionisamust]

TC recommends 90 grains of powder with a 250 bullet for best accuracy.
Keep in mind that not all muzzeloaders like the same bullet/powder combo. My Triumph grouped about 8 inches at 100 yards using the same load that you asked about. I'm still trying to find a good powder and bullet combo for my rifle.

It seemed like I was grouping around 3"-4" using 100 gr. of powder. When I shot 150 gr, the group seemed to reduce to 1"-2" at 100 yards. I tried shooting 150 yards but kept hitting 9" low, but I believe that was me. I only have a 4 power on it this year and it's tough to shoot 150+ yards with only a 4 power. Looks like 100 yards is the max this year.

I will be heading out again Nov 7th to shoot it and double check my scope before deer season. I will be sighting in at 2" high at 100 yards using the 150 gr. That will be good enough for this year before I can buy a 4x12x50 scope next year.

On a side note, shooting muzzeloaders are damn cool. This was my first time and loved it (except for all the damn cleaning after every shot, lol). Cannot wait to go and shoot again!!!!

[Sargeyork]

My only tip or comment is that I think most people are using to light of bullets in their muzzleloaders. If your shooting a .50 cal you should be shooting a 300 grain projectile or heavier because you can never make a muzzleloader shoot like a smokeless centerfire in terms of velocity so you should take advantage of what a muzzleloade does best which is to fire large bore heavy bullets with devastating effect into deer or whatever your hunting for, light bullets slow down quick, heavy bullets retain more energy to deliver when they slow down than lighter bullets.:phaser:

[mechredd]

My only tip or comment is that I think most people are using to light of bullets in their muzzleloaders. If your shooting a .50 cal you should be shooting a 300 grain projectile or heavier because you can never make a muzzleloader shoot like a smokeless centerfire in terms of velocity so you should take advantage of what a muzzleloade does best which is to fire large bore heavy bullets with devastating effect into deer or whatever your hunting for, light bullets slow down quick, heavy bullets retain more energy to deliver when they slow down than lighter bullets.:phaser:

I was watching one of the many "huntin at the pettin zoo" shows a while back. A guy with a .50 cal Encore using 150 grains of 777 and a 250gr shockwave made a 400+ yard shot on a huge whitetail. In slow motion hi-def you could see the bullet bounce off the deer's shoulder.

[wadevb1]

For shooting groups with 777 I swab the barrel between shots to keep consistant pressure. 777, especially the pellets form the "crud" ring which isn't helpful for accuracy.

[ro2]

I was told that you should use muzzleloader specific 209 primers instead of shotgun 209 primers. Due to the fact that a shotgun primer will create excess pressure and possibly not burn all the powder in the barrell. I have never needed more than 100 grns of powder even to reach out 200 yds. But then again my accuracy goes to pot over 100grns

[caribouhunter]

To the last poster, I would say try different projectiles and sabots directly from www.mmpsabots.com/.
I had accuracy problems before and find these sabots to be very consistent which allowed me to go to 150 grains of 777 powder.
As in sighting in your rifle, test 6 to 10 different projectiles to see what works best in your gun, don't settle for close enough.
I use 150 grain of 777 powder with a 300 grain projectile with more than enough accuracy out to 200 yards.

[ro2]

i had excellent results in my savage 10ML2 with 240 gr dead center with 100grns. my new accura I still have yet to shoot gonna start with a 295 grn powerbelts and 100 grns and go from there. Also gonna test pellets vs loose powder

[RSF]

Never had that problem I blow right through them at 379 this year 400 for sure possible 450. on the new farm,.

[jacksdaddy06]

I hunt with a CVA Optima Pro that I bought new in 03. This gun has been a tack driver since new. I've always used 150 grains of 777 and a 223 gr PowerBelt Aerotip, absolutely deadly. I sighted this in 2" high at 50yds when it was new, using a 3-9x40 Bushnell Sportview scope. The longest shot I've ever taken was right at 200 yds, I held right behind the shoulder and that's exactly where the bullet hit. I put it on paper every year before season, and it always shoots perfect after the fowling shot. I switched to Hornady SST-ML speed sabots last season because I couldn't find PowerBelts up here, and they shot pretty close to the PowerBelts, just a little left of center, unfortunatley I didn't get to a shot last season at a deer, so I don't know how they perform on a kill.

[Toledo Kid]

What the HELL are you guys killing to have the need for 150gr of powder???
90-100gr is plenty out to 150yds with 240gr sabot for most anything in the lower 48 in any size.:brow:

[sse]

150gr of powder???
Its not real powder, its just crap.

http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.com/

[protectionisamust]

What the HELL are you guys killing to have the need for 150gr of powder???
:

Rabbits :biggrin:

[Toledo Kid]

Its not real powder, its just crap.

http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.com/ Whatever 150gr of Ajax Soap...
Man...you all must like punishing yourself and your firearm...hahahaha

[protectionisamust]

Man...you all must like punishing yourself and your firearm...hahahaha

My muzzeloader with 150gr of powder kicks less than my 12 ga. shooting 3" mags? Must be the limb saver recoil pad.

[jacksdaddy06]

My Optima is a pussycat with 150 grains, shoots like a 20 gauge.
As far as the 150 grains being overkill, it doesn't do any more damage than 100 grains, it just lets you take longer shots more accuratley. I'd rather have a gun loaded to shoot farther and not need it, than the opposite.

[sarco001]

I am new to the muzzle loader scene, so bare with me.
Years ago at a range there were two guys shooting muzzle loaders. As they were chatting about their shooting, one of them spoke of using too much powder and it burning after the bullet left the barrel was a waste of powder.
Can anyone address this issue for me?
At the time it made perfect sense.
I just picked-up a Remington 700ML to get into the ML game and am looking for lots of info.

[burle1812]

sarco, I think what the gentleman was refering to happens when you are using more powder than needed. Mostly, 150gr of powder is more powder than most 209 caps can burn. What ends up happening is there is a ton of left over powder in the barrel. If you want to see for yourself, load up 150gr of powder (don't exceed max load for the gun!!!) then position a white piece of paper about 7-10 feet from the end of the barrel. Pull the trigger and besides a hellacious hole in the paper you will see black spots around the hole. This is the extra unburned powder exiting the muzzle. I don't see a "bad" side to it, just that it wastes powder.

[caribouhunter]

Compare the ballistics of muzzleloader projectiles to standard rifle rounds, you will see where rounds like the 30-06 have a huge advantage to the muzzleloader. The philosophy of saying I only needing 100 grains of powder is like telling everyone they only need to use a 30-30 in zone 2. Stop dictating to people and let them use what they are comfortable with. Hunting is fun because we have so many choices.
Moving up 150 grains, may waste some powder, but I don't care if I need to run 3 patches instead of 2 between reloads. The extra increase in velocity, relates to footpounds of energy, energy creates damage in the deer, damage kills the deer. Yes, at close ranges this extra smackdown may not be an issue. At 200 yards you will be glad to have the extra footpounds of energy remaining.
Lets put it this way, in my 25+ years of hunting I have lost deer shot with handguns and shotguns, I have NEVER lost one with a muzzleloader. About 50% of the muzzleloader hits with 150 grains of powder (300 grain TC shockwave bullet) result in a deer dropped on the spot. Since I hunt in zone 3 this is important to not have track jobs that go into neighbors properties, into roads, etc.
So yes, if your comfortable with 100 grains of powder use it. ("A man has got to know his limits") For me, 150 grains works for a variety of reasons. The extra recoil of 150 grains is minor; turkey loads have significantly more recoil.

[mikethepike]

Whatever you sight it in with , make sure you use this load while hunting or you'll have a different result.

2 things i learned last year
1) cover the muzzle with a balloon,electrical tape or surgical rubber glove in order to keep foreign material or WATER AND SNOW and from getting in the barrel and making you dry powder a mis-fire----That mis-fire cost me 2 deer last year.
2) if possible keep the muzzleloader outside to keep the temperature consistant with the cold...Bringing it inside and out could create moisture in the barrel and foul the powder creating a mis-fire

[RSF]

No misfires with an ultimate. no need to cover the muzzle either with todays sabots and such if thats your thing it almost offers a complete enough seal.

[mechredd]

My first time hunting with a muzzleloader I had a hang fire. I pulled the trigger, the cap popped and nothing happened. The deer, which was less than 10 yards away took off running. I lifted my head all confused, then the gun went off and scared the hell out of me.

If I had a bayonet, I would have had a deer that year.

[mikethepike]

No misfires with an ultimate. no need to cover the muzzle either with todays sabots and such if thats your thing it almost offers a complete enough seal.


I dont care what muzzy you have , 10 hours sitting in a downpour , your gonna get water down the barrel past the sabot and wet the powder. I've been shooting black powder for 15 years and its the only opener that this had happened (deer season 2008)

[RSF]

yah try it in quebec.. been there done it. gun went bang... sealed breechs and sealed bore by the sabot no issues


Knight had a promo for a while that was running were they fired there guns after being soaked in water tanks and they went bang every time.

Not saying fool proof but been there no issues so far

[mikethepike]

I had no idea i would have to get a home equity loan just to buy 1. 1800 to 3500+ for a muzzleloader? Holy crap!!!!

[tondar]

I've also heard you can't shoot loose powder with them. Or that they perform poorly with loose. Any truth to that?

[RSF]

I have shot loose with good results but why bother when you can shoot 4 inch groups at 300 yards .....or better

and yes its expensive.. until you add up what you spend on others..
Im onthe smae 50 hunks of brass for years now all i do is re prime them

I have no brecch plug to pull ever. i use 3 patches to clean it and am done in under -3 minutes and its put away ..

and can take any game clean to 500 yards....and have rang steel plates at 700 yards with it... why not i have shot small game using 1 pellet and a 180 grain bullet very effective head shots.


I have a few of them they are great are they for everybody no BUT IF YOU WANT THE BEST YOU PAY FOR IT...

I have DRT game with that gun out to 350yards and there is no tracking period i have had one 1 deer take a step after shooting them with it...Only 1 and it was taken at 379 yards it went down in less than 20 yards