Buying a new truck

[wrinkledshirt]

With the automakers offering 0% financing this month, I'm thinking real hard about a new truck. I'm most interested in the Silverado 1500, but might go Ford F150 if the price is significantly less. In either case, I want 4X4 extended cab.

I can get GM supplier discount or Ford A-plan through my brother-in-law. GM supplier discount claims to be 4% over the price a GM employee would pay, but I've heard some dealer commercials saying that "all customers get GM supplier discount" which makes me suspect that this discount is not all that fantastic.

If you were in my shoes, what would you do? Could I do better than GM supplier price just by dickering?

[DAVE365]

GM has two options when buying a new car. The first option is GMS (Buy from dealer stock) and can result in a 8% to 10% savings, plus any other incentives which GM passes on to the dealer, and he wants to pass on to you.

The second option is the GMO (Order the new vehicle from GM). This option known as Option 1 provides for a 15% discount from the MSRP. Thats the suggested retail price with all your options. Just figure out the total price before sales/transfer taxes and fees - multiply by 15%, and this is your savings.

Option 1 has other restrictions. The dealer must be within a 25 mile radius of your residence, and you must fit into GM's definition of relative.

My brother was a GM employee, and I used it last year. Beat the Option 2 (GMS) plan by a lot of dollars.

I now understand that Ford is also allowing the GM discounts on their vehicles. Don't know if any other restrictions have been added. I don't buy Fords - Just my preference.

Hope this might clear up some of the confusion that the dealer adds promote.

[wrinkledshirt]

Dave, are those options you listed limited to GM employees or family members? I don't fall into that category, but my company is a GM supplier. And I don't suppose there's a quick way to get myself into that category short of marriage. :shock:

Thanks for replies guys.

[Autumnlovr]

Buy a Dodge & I can get you a "Friends & Family" discount.

[Ken P]

Buy a FORD!!!

and if you do..and live in the Livonia area let me know...my cuz in law is a salesman at a large dealership..he'll do the best he can for ya

[mkls0]

Buy a FORD and you can buy my cap for it :lol:

[DAVE365]

Dave, are those options you listed limited to GM employees or family members? I don't fall into that category, but my company is a GM supplier. And I don't suppose there's a quick way to get myself into that category short of marriage.

As far as I know, it is limited to the GM employee and his family members (ie brother, sister, brother-in-law, sister-in-law, mother, father, mother-in-law, father-in-law). There might be more, I just don't know. As for GM suppliers, I am pretty sure that it doesn't extend beyond the employee.

[Roger Roney]

Same offer as Autumnlovr, "Buy a Dodge & I can get you a "Friends & Family" discount."

Hey, Autumnlovr, do you think all of us current and retired D******/Chrysler employees could combine to get someone a "free" vehicle? :-) :-)

Back to original question. I have heard that almost anyone can make as good, or better, deal than "employee discounts" with some "Big Three" dealerhips. Some may be "Country." rather than urban or suburban, but the best thing is to still shop around to at least 4 or 5 dealers.

Test drive, Evaluate, and Negotiate for your North American built vehicle!

[AimHigh]

Ford and GERMan Chrysler are ok but you will be the most happy with the Silverado 1500. It is a great truck. Go for it.

[goldwing2000]

I hate to say it but definitely stay away from Ford. Over-engineered, under-built piece of crap... :rant:

[Ken P]

I hate to say it but definitely stay away from Ford. Over-engineered, under-built piece of crap... :rant:

right...that's why the last three I've owned have gone over 200,000 miles with no major issues on any of them

[mkls0]

You tell him ken FORD is the bast

[Tim W]

I hate to say it but definitely stay away from Ford. Over-engineered, under-built piece of crap... :rant:

I used to say that, too, until I bought one. Now I'm on my second one.

[PhotoTom]

I hate to say it but definitely stay away from Ford. Over-engineered, under-built piece of crap... :rant:

Going on 110,000 miles with my Ford F250SD. Starts every day and I drive right on by all the broken-down GM's.... :twisted:

I just drove a new GMC 2500HD a couple of weeks ago. Compared to my Ford (same class), the ride was significantly rougher and it felt like I could have easily lost control in hard driving, emergency maneuvers (due to the loss of traction from bouncing around so much). That may not actually happen, but that is the impression I was left with.

I think the interior and the 'bells and whistles" of the GM's are better, but that's about it. I love my locking tailgate! There was a rash of tailgate thefts in my area a couple of weeks ago. The majority of them were GM's and Dodges....odd, eh? There were some Fords, but the locks don't work if you don't use them!

The only thing I HATE about my Ford is the HUGE steering radius (it is measured in fractions of a MILE vs. feet). I don't know if the GM's are any better (QuadSteer is only available on the 1500 series right now), but I didn't get that impression from the one that I drove (it had a shorter wheelbase since it didn't have the extended cab).

With that said, I'd consider either Ford or GM if I were in the market right now. Just because I have four Fords in my driveway/garage doesn't mean that I'm a Ford-only guy! It must mean that they're doing something right, though! :)

[goldwing2000]

I hate to say it but definitely stay away from Ford. Over-engineered, under-built piece of crap... :rant:

right...that's why the last three I've owned have gone over 200,000 miles with no major issues on any of them

*shrug* Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

[taurus92]

I hate to say it but definitely stay away from Ford. Over-engineered, under-built piece of crap... :rant:

I would say the same for the POS GMC that I just got rid of! That thing was in the shop every 3 months or so for another $500-$1000+ repair. NEVER AGAIN

Now if we did not have all these tarriffs on the imports we could all save a ton of money for something that may last awhile... Most of these "imports" have more american parts then the big 2 now.

[goldwing2000]

I'd worry about the import steel, though. Unless they've changed their processes, they tend to rust very quickly and VERY badly. :shock:

I dunno. Maybe all you guys just have bad luck. Or maybe they just don't make 'em like they used to? All I know is that my 23-year-old Chevy has never left me stranded. Ever. My 11-year-old Plymouth is doing good so far, too. The last Ford product I owned (a Merc Cougar) seems like it was broken more often than it wasn't. And the Fords are infinitely more dificult to repair when they do break.

Of course, the last import car that I owned, a Mercedes, left me stranded once, too. Damn germans, anyway.

[jr-vass]

Nothing gets more emotional than a shooter and his truck! :twisted:

I've got a 2000 Chevy 1500 Z-71. It's my 3rd pickup in 8 years (the others were S-10's).

The most important thing is to find one that you will be happy with. Options and whatever.

My first S-10 I bought new after totalling a 10-yr-old Cadillac Cimarron. It was nice, but I wanted the off-road package after sliding off of an icy farmer field at 2 MPH!

When they came out with the 3rd door S-10's, I had my brother order one and put it in PEP service. It was a great truck until it was out of warranty and the heater couldn't be fixed for cheap.

Traded that for my 2000, 1500 Z-71. It's got the cajones to pull the boat and pass the nitwits on 2 lane roads. Even with the air conditioning on and smooth Jazz guitar playing in the background! No major problems with this truck.

Get what you like. The 0% financing is hard to refuse. But, I... am.. still... holding,,, out!

BTW. Be sure whatever you get will tow whatever you have.

James

[bluesoftail]

Get a FORD

Real trucks don't wear "bowties"

[goldwing2000]

Get a FORD

Real trucks don't wear "bowties"

Waitaminnit... you mean that 5500 lbs of iron, steel and rubber in my back yard is imaginary??

Well... don't tell the guy who was driving the Ford I pulled out of a ditch this past winter. It might spook him to know he was rescued by a ghost!

Just out of curiosity, do you have any basis for this opinion?

[M1911A1]

I could come in here and really stir the pot!
I don't think I will. You guys are having way too much fun!

[goldwing2000]

Aw, c'mon Marty! You know you wanna!

[Autumnlovr]

Guys, trucks & guns.......HELP! I'm drowning in the testosterone battles! :roll:

[mkls0]

Guys, trucks & guns.......HELP! I'm drowning in the testosterone battles! :roll:



I can help you autumnlovr we all know Ford trucks and colt guns are the best

[mohavesam]

My $.02:
First, if at all possible, buy with cash, or as much as you can get your hands on! If you have no money, why are you thinking of making a major purchase anyway??? Remember the 'big three' make the majority of their profit every year not from the vehicles themselves, but from the financing! The business of selling debt is the real moneymaker for them.

Second, buy yourself the Consumer Reports new car/truck price breakdown sheets - about 12 bucks for each model. They'll give the retail and dealer's cost for the base vehicle, every option, and common dealer packages, etc. Now you know what the dealer - every dealer in the L48 knows about costs.

Third, hop a one-way to Oregon or some other state that does not attach a sales tax. I saved my family over $2100 in sales tax alone (minus the $220 for the plane ticket)!

Finally, understand the law. It is a federal felony for any US dealer to sell any car/truck for an amount below the factory invoice price, so walk quickly away from anyone promising to 'sell below factory cost' .
All dealers big and small must pay the same price for any vehicle.
All dealers by contract with the maker are guaranteed a 'holdback' profit usually 3% of the factory invoice.
A "dealer invoice" means nothing, they can be printed up in the back room all day long.
CR advocates offering no more than $500 profit over the factory invoice, although most vehicle stickers show a 18-30% markup from the factory price!
And know the real cost of factory options when the dealer offers an upgraded stereo, or other options!

Sop smart and avoid emotion-buying, which 90% of American car buyers fail miserably at. If you hear yourself saying "I really love this car", you should run away as fast as you can.

[Kurgan]

Let me preface this with the fact that I've been in this industry for 12+ years and work with GM, Chrysler, Ford....sales and leasing...both here in Michigan and across the US.

The idea of profit being in the financing WAS true at one point but for the most part it's not the case, for years now. With all of the manufacturers offering between 0% - 3.9% on most all vehicles up to 60 months they are NOT making any money this way. The manufacturer's profit is in the vehicle when it hits the dealer lot. MANY dealers are alive solely due to their service departments. New vehicle sales are the LEAST profitable aspect of a dealers operation. With regards to the new vehicles themselves, a dealer may make a small margin on the vehicle and hope for some aftermarket accessory sales or that a customer wishes a service contract.

Consumer reports giving away 'dealer cost' is a fallacy. There is a LOT involved in determing dealer cost. First, vehicle pricing changes throughout the model year. You get a 2003 that was made in September of 2002 and one that is produced in May of this year....there could EASILY be $600 difference in cost. Each vehicle has a portion of money built into the invoice cost to cover "advertising". THis amount varies by location of the dealership...city, county, metropolitan area, state, etc. And it varies on what model car/truck it is! None of these consumer reports know the real full dealer invoice pricing.

Sales tax.....there is no escape! :D Yes, you can buy from an out of state dealer that doesn't charge sales tax but to register the vehicle here in Michigan, you have to get a Michigan title and you will end up paying your 6% at the Secretary of States office. Or, if the other state has reciprocity with Michigan (like Ohio does) you'll pay sales tax in Ohio and they'll report it to Michigan.

Selling below dealer invoice.... Here is a huge gray area that the general public simply does not understand. "Dealer Invoice" is the FULL invoice which includes the advertising funds, the holdback money, floor plan money, etc. Dealers can and DO sell below this amount every day. I do it all the time. A dealer can sell it below "Invoice" as far as he wishes to dip. Now, a dealer cannot sell it below his true COST...and that never does happen. But true cost and "dealer invoice" are not the same. A dealer invoice DOES mean something...it's a document the MANUFACTURER creates and the dealer simply prints out. If a dealer is cooking up false documents that is one thing but a true dealer invoice sheet, showing MSRP and full 'dealer invoice' with advertising adjustments, holdback, etc is generated by the factory. Period.

18-30% markup from invoice to retail is just plain wrong, misinformation that the public comes across and wants to believe. It's false. Never in a million years. Many cars for years now have had anywhere between 5% to perhaps 10% markup. Some light trucks MAY have around 13% markup but that's pretty much it.

Again, I work in this industry and all that I have typed above is the way things work. I have no reason to mislead anyone. I'm not here throwing out business cards or trying to drum up business for myself. I'm just trying to clear the murky waters of what falsehoods are held as gospel...

[wrinkledshirt]

Wow, lots of great replies. That "testosterone battle" comment gave me a great laugh.

I test drove a Silverado 1500 tonight. Before we did anything I said, "I'm not signing anything tonight." She later said lots of nice things like, "Well, I know you're a smart guy, so....." :P

The truck was great, though I did smell something burning after we got back (and the saleslady agreed). But that's probably a "new car" thing. The one I drove had the 4.8 liter engine; I can't see why I should get the 5.3 liter. Maybe one of you could convince me why I should spend $800 extra.

I have some brand loyalty. My first 2 new cars were Chevys--a Beretta I drove 110000 miles and my current S10 that's at 165000. Consumer Reports rates the Chevy a bit better than Ford, but I'll drive the Ford before I make any other decisions. Especially since I can get A plan for Ford. And as for the Dodge, I took one up north last summer and wasn't impressed. Especially after filling the tank. I know the Silverado isn't much better, but I guess I'm just averse to Mopar products. Crappy reasoning I know, but....

One thing I've learned: http://www.edmunds.com has bulletin boards where people are almost as enthusiastic about their trucks as we are about our gun rights. Some pretty knowledgeable people there.

I'll keep you all posted. Thanks for all the feedback.

[Rob]

From a salesman point of view, I have sold Fords and Chevrolets.

I wouldnt even think of buying or selling a German truck so stay away from Dodge.

Now as for buying a new truck, you should go to a few dealers and get there price, and payments totals with document fees, tax the whole works. match window stickers.

Remember to be very careful, Dealers do make mistakes.
but it your making payments, watchout for them.
a standard practice is to add points to the interest rates for profit.
and tell you somethink else.
At 0% it's very easy to figure out the payment.
stay away from life insurance and all the BS, it adds up quickly.

If a salesman qoutes you a payment they will usally qoute it high and make the BS look cheap.

Tell them you dont have a trade in. even if you do until after you have talk to the FI department.

Shop your trade in.

Remember if the lips are moving they are lieing to you.

I feel chevy and ford have the best trucks made today.

Watch what you sign!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have seen many dealers who keep the rebates for themselfs.

Dont buy anything the first time you go there.

Go home and wait a few days.

Tell them you've been to other dealers and the are offering you a better price.

Ford salesman make more money on you, Then GM saleman.

A dealership can sell below invoice for a profit.
they get money many ways form the motor company.
#1 Is call Holdback
#2 dealer cash
#3 advertising

Ask to see the actul Invoice, it they bring you a computer print out just walk out of the store. they are trying to get over on you.
Read the invoice carefully look for numbers on it and figure out what they are.
Tell the salesman to go take a walk as you read it.

invoice and sticker are not the same number.

The more expensive the vehcile the more they can sell below invoice.

For a fee I would be willing to go with you to buy your vehcile.
I can also figure out there charges with my laptop.

But that is the best advise I can give you!

Dealers are hurting to sell to you.

Many people get taken for many thousands of dollars because they dont know what they are doing and the ways a dealer makes his money.

I know many people who have spent 4-6 thousand dollars more for there truck then they needed.
Because the were not informed.............

When buying a chevy truck the difference between Gmo and Gms is only a couple hundred dollars when all is said and done.

[Kurgan]

I wouldnt even think of buying or selling a German truck so stay away from Dodge.

They're not made in Germany and most content is US. That's not really a legitimate point on why to stay away from a Dodge. By that thinking you could avoid many GM trucks that are assembled in Mexico.

a standard practice is to add points to the interest rates for profit. True, this does happen but if you're an A tier call back (excellent credit rating, etc) they won't fuss around for the most part, maybe 0.25 of a point.

Dont buy anything the first time you go there.

Not necessarily a tactic that works. Some dealers in the Metro Detroit area have salaried sales people and their vehicles are sold at a flat out price, no haggling back and forth necessary, sort of what Saturn does. Also, if you're executing a lease or purchase using Employee or Vendor discount papers, your price is set by the factory. There's no messing around with those numbers. If you find a vehicle you like, the payments work out well, there's no reason not to sign up on the spot.

Tell them you've been to other dealers and the are offering you a better price.

And this is where the phrase comes in "customers always lie" comes into play. Any salesperson is going to ask you to produce a hard copy quote of the 'better deal'.....complete with a copy of the factory invoice/shipper of the vehicle you're going to purchase, the rates quoted and it being signed by someone at that dealer. You'd be surprised at how many customers can't compare an apples to apples quote. Car "A" has 2 more options than car "B" so the price is $600 more. "Yes, Mr. Salespeson, it's the same exact car" This happens every day.

Ford salesman make more money on you, Then GM saleman. And this is based on what? Salesman's pay is not dictated by the brand he sells, rather, on the pay plan of that individual dealer that he works for. Just like anyone elses job. You can do the same job for a dozen different companies and each offers you a different compensation plan.

The more expensive the vehcile the more they can sell below invoice. Generally, yes, but not in all cases. Different vehicles have different amounts of markup, as dictated by the factory. Also, some vehicles don't have 'holdback' (imports) or they don't have the same percentage of holdback, less actually (Lincoln).

[G22]

I've had my 97 1500 silverado 4x4 for about 1yr now. I bought it with 65,000 miles on it. It's a 5.7L 350 Vortech & I am seriously impressed with the power it has, (absolutly no problems yet)(& i'm not easy on my vehicles). 75000 miles now. The new HEMI may beat it, the Lightning deffinately will, but it'll beat any other stock truck out there.

Before that I owned a 90 2500 silverado with a normal chev 5.7L 350 with 3" exhaust, It was a gas hog oil burner. (8mpg) bought it with 55000 miles & took it to 155000. My new truck gets double the gas milage about 16mpg & it's twice as fast, & more comfortable inside.

I never owned a ford truck, but being from a ford family I did own a lot of ford cars. for the most part they were ok but i wouldent trade any of them for my new truck.

Anyway IMHO I see from your previous post that you are leaning towards the right direction with GM/Chevy.

[wrinkledshirt]

Wow guys, lots of good info. Very interesting points 'concerned' and 'Kurgan'.

When I ask for an invoice, how do I know what they give me is the real deal? That is, not something they printed up with numbers more to their liking?

[Kurgan]

Wrinkled, what brand car are you looking for? GM, Ford or Chrysler? If I remember to, I can scan a sample of one and you'll know you're looking at the real deal.

[wrinkledshirt]

Kurgan, GM most likely.

It would probably be easiest if you emailed that scan to jimjoebobcityslicker@yahoo.com .

Thanks a zillion!

[mohavesam]

Lots of good info here. With regard to my post about using the CR reports, I only know what I paid - the sticker was 365xx. and I paid what the CR report said was the dealer's cost, +300. cash margin, which totaled out to just under $27000. After I showed the delaer the CR sheet, I was signed, gassed up and on the higway in less than 35 minutes!

The CR report said not to pay more than $105 for any factory-approved dealer-installed remote door opener/alarm system, so when the dealer offered me the $425 alarm I showed him the report and he sold it to me for 107.50. The truck did not have a rear slider but the delaer offered me one installed while I waited for 255. CR report paper said the factory unit cost the dealer 103. and retail was 235. He ended up installing the factory unit for 105 total. In all options I chose, the dealer SRP wound up exactly what CR said it was, within a dollar each way! I highly recommend the twelve dollar investment, the only bad things I have ever heard about the Consumer Reports sheets has been from people who make their living in the auto sales industry.

Incidentally, absolutely refuse to drive away with any dealer advertisements on your new private property! My last two vehicles had the crappy-looking sticker or dealer logo painted on the rear of the vehicle! My reasoning was that we should work out the cost of a newspaper ad the same size as the logo, for one weekend day, and I would only charge the dealer one years' worth of advertising at that rate, to be taken off the negotiated price!

Both dealers promptly removed the logos, the one even re-painting the (entire) tailgate the following day! I refuse to advertise someone else's business for free!

Of course, buying any new vehicle is considered to be the single worst financial investment one can make, except for the utterly stooopid act of renting/leasing a vehicle. But we do it anyway...

[wrinkledshirt]

Hey, guess what I got!!!!!!!???

http://www.gmbuypower.com/app/images/gmbp//13001/vehicle/2003/med/X200313847U.gif

I'm pretty happy with the deal. I started shopping Friday, was offered $1000 for my trade-in (1995 S-10), and after some cursing went home without a vehicle. Saturday I searched www.gmbuypower.com, found a less-expensive truck, and faxed an offer to James Chevrolet in Mt. Clemens. They called this morning with acceptance. I have to say there was no BS dealing with them (though I dealt with the internet sales mgr, not the typical sales wanker). Because my financing was taken care of, I was only at the dealership for about 40 minutes including test drive.

With $4000 in rebates on this truck, the total bill (including tax etc.) came to about 80% of the sticker price.

If anyone else is not sure where to start, ask here or try this great book: "The Insiders Guide to Buying a New or Used Car" by Burke Leon.

Thanks for your help everyone. Now I own a small fleet of Chevy pickups. :D

[mkls0]

congats on the truck

[jr-vass]

Congrats on the new truck.

I traded a '95 S-10 for a ZR-2 '97; then traded that for a '00 Z-71 1500. The only problems I have to have fixed before the warranty runs out is a "knocking feeling in the steering", a "stiff" accelerator at start-up, and the under-hood light needs a "tap" to work. Burned out a driving light, but that is easy to change.

Nothing earth-shattering, but if the service advisor wants to fix the light by rapping on it, I may rap on his head!

James

[Renegade]

First - Buy what ever you like.

Second - Ford does not make the #1 best selling truck. GM does they just built 2 different trim packages, GMC or Chevy. GM usually makes about 1.75 trucks for everyone ford builds. If you are #1 you would be making the most trucks.

Third - I have been a licensed auto mechanic for 19 years now. I even had my own shop. If you are just going to drive it like it was a car buy any truck. If you are going to use it like a truck, buy any Chevy or a Super Duty Ford, stay away from the Dodge.

A good friend of mine is a MOPAR freak. He has 2 olds ones and keeps buying new ones. Guess what I have worked on them all. His most reliable vehicles he has ever owned have been Chevy and Toyota.

Fourth - Buy what you like the most no matter what advise you are given.
The reason is no matter what anyone perfers to drive or has to drive it may have been either their good or bad luck as to how their vehicle treated them.

GOOD LUCK!

[G22]

Great choice.
What motor did you get?

[wrinkledshirt]

Thanks guys. I ended up with the bare-bones LS 4WD with 4.8 liter V8. The smaller motor should be enough for me; this truck will be used mostly for commuting but occasionally for hauling stuff and creeping around upper Michigan's out-of-the-way places. I sold my boat a few years back and have no need to tow anything regularly now.

Any recommendations on truck accessories (tonneau cover, cap, bug guard, General Lee horn :twisted:, etc.) appreciated.

[joen]

I buy a 'new' GMC truck every 9-10 years or so. Currently in a '02 Z71. My son has my old '94 Z71 with 160K and his only complaint is the 15-16 mpg. Always had great experience with GM stuff.

Gave Chrysler a shot in '76 and again in'85; both Dodge Rams; both engines died at 110 and 125k respectively behind several changes of U-joints on each vehicle. Both total pieces excrement. One can't give me a Chrysler product as a result.

No personal experience with Ford however 2 friends swear by the F150 4x4. One is a '95; the other around there and both still look as good as my GM stuff. I have seen lot's of Ford's in Colorado and North Carolina.

[Godfather JAM]

My 2 cents in my unprofessional survey including my hillbilly neighbors who off road in cornfields, my working friends, and personal opinion I found.....
For 1/2 ton I lean towards GM, but being a pleasure truck it's personal choice. I've heard great and bad about both. 3/4 and up all my working buddies swear by Fords. These are guys who often overload and bury trucks to the axles. Unless you are elderly and want a more softer ride and easier to step into work truck GM has.
I've seen three of the boys kill trans and two rear ends in Dodge full size and Dakotas. Although I like their styling and interiors the best the no reverse stories after falling in a river bed are too much.

[Scoop]

I wouldnt even think of buying or selling a German truck so stay away from Dodge.
....
Both total pieces excrement
....
One can't give me a Chrysler product as a result.
...
Although I like their styling and interiors the best the no reverse stories after falling in a river bed are too much.

I doubt that anybody is willing to put their money where the mouth is as much as I can/will/do:

My father retired from Ford; I can get the A plan on any Ford product, and have been able to for half my life.
Through my wife's mother's husband, we can get any GM product at dealer cost, and for quite some time.

I'm currently driving a 2002 Dodge Ram 4x4 Quad cab.
My previous truck was a 1999 Dodge Ram 4x4 Quad cab.
My truck before that was a 1996 Dodge Ram 4x4 Quad cab.

Unless you're willing to pay (near) retail for a truck when others are available to you at dealer cost, don't bother telling me that one is a piece of $hit or the other is junk.

My 1999 was UNDERWATER for 2 hours. Everything except for the engine and the front/top of the cab. Middle of December. Slid down an embankment while being loaded with firewood and went through a foot of ice. Embankment was too steep to drive out. While waiting for a couple of John Deere 8-wheel plow tractors to warm up (diesel), I watched it sink. Pulled it out after 2 hours. Ripped the sheet metal to bits along the passener side -- looked like a giant can opener had opened it up! Opened the tailgate and let all the water/ice/wood out. Opened the driver's door and let all the water out. The truck was listing severely to one side (suspension was all screwed up when we pulled it out of the pond, as the bits and pieces were pushed/pullled/dragged against all the thick ice). I've got pictures of it all, too.

Got in the cab, turned the key and started the truck on the first twist. A tailpipe-sized plume of water shot out of the tailpiple for about three seconds.

I drove this "piece of German excrement" HOME -- over SIXTY miles, as it listed sideways after being underwater/ice for two hours in the middle of December in Michigan.

In my book, THAT is the kind of truck I want to own.

By the way -- they are not designed nor built in Germany, nor are it's components. Mine was assembled in St. Louis, MO.

When Dodge totally redesigned the Ram (and PIONEERED the current "semi-truck" look that all the manufacturers are using), they redesigned EVERYTHING. This isn't the same truck as a '75 or '85.

One other thing I'll mention about the Ford and GM pickups vs. the Dodge: doesn't it seem funny that, for the past 10+ years, GM and Ford *always* change their trucks to look like the Dodge pickups a couple of years AFTER Dodge leads the way? Take a close look at the "all new" Ford pickup. Sure looks like a cross between a Dodge and a GM. And GM took the majority of their current design from Dodge's original redesign. Go look at your new Ford or GM pickup. You'll see the vague outline of a Dodge if you look well enough.

[ANIMAL]

Plus I get about 21 MPG for my 90 Dodge deisel, compared to 13 or 14 for ford or gm

[USP1]

Why buy one of those German Trucks made by Daimler Chrysler, after all look at some of the other pieces of junk Germans make like the VW, AUDI, BMW, MERCEDES and Porsche, LOL. All that aside, my 2004 Dodge was designed by Americans in Auburn Hills and Built buy Americans in Missouri It has 345 horse and more torque then any of its competitors that arent running diesel, and to mention the diesels that Dodge has, the Cummins is made by Detroit Diesel, another company with American workers, so before you go knocking the "German" truck make sure your Ford wasn't built in Belgium or Gm wasn't built in Mexico. My point is this, These big Companies are GLOBAL now and theyr'e all willing to chase the cheaper wages and parts that the Chinese, Mexican and S.American countries are willing to offer...