FBI Doing Gun Roundup To Try To Solve Tom Wales Murder [Archive]

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Dan

07-16-2003, 02:33 PM

http://www.komotv.com/stories/26049.htm

FBI Doing Gun Roundup To Try To Solve Tom Wales Murder

July 15, 2003

By Michelle Esteban

SEATTLE - Gun owners say the FBI is rounding up pistols in a nationwide effort to solve the murder of Tom Wales, a federal prosecutor from Seattle.

It's been 19 months since Wales was gunned down in his Queen Anne home. The feds are looking for Makarov pistols -- a special kind of gun that may have been used in the killing.

Wade's Gun Shop in Bellevue describes it as an inexpensive, but "very reliable" pistol.

According to "Mak" owners, the FBI is looking for pistols that have been fitted with replacement barrels.

John Grove of Virginia, a Mak owner, got a call from the FBI in January. "(The agent) said he was trying to find a particular weapon used in a murder and they were rounding up all these Federal Arms Corporation barrels from Makarovs," says Grove.

Federal Arms is a Minnesota-based importer. "I think it's a fishing expedition...I was surprised they (FBI) received my purchase records," says Grove.

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Click on link for rest of article.

goldwing2000

07-16-2003, 03:19 PM

It's been 19 months since Wales was gunned down in his Queen Anne home...
We do know the FBI is offering a million dollar reward to find Tom Wales killer.

Ok... so what makes this guy so much more special than anybody else who's murdered? Oh, that's right. He's probably a first-class citizen.

After 19 months, anybody else would have gotten a letter saying "We couldn't find the killer. Sorry about your luck. Hope you had insurance."
:rant:

Jim Simmons

07-16-2003, 03:29 PM

Wales was prominent in the Seattle gun control movement.

I've posted on this subject before. A number of Michigan residents have been contacted by the FBI demanding the "voluntary" surrender of the barrels and the pistols they've been installed in.

I received a call from a Texican gentlemen who has been subpeonad to testify before the grand jury in Seattle. He refused to surrender his barrels and Makarov pistols.

I'm negotiating with several Seattle area criminal practitioners to set someone up to challenge this thing.

shoprat

07-16-2003, 09:08 PM

A friend of mine had the FBI contact him already. They handled everything in a very professional manor, called ahead to make arrangements to pick-up his gun for testing. They told him he would have his gun back in a couple of weeks, I guess time will tell if he gets his gun back in the same condition it was in when they took it. Seems kinda strange to me that the FBI would spend this kind of money and manpower on one case.

Note: I felt my original wording may have led someone to believe the FBI just showed up at his door, and that wasn't the case.

Renegade

07-18-2003, 09:49 AM

The main reason of the time and money thing is who you know.

owner

07-24-2003, 09:52 AM

A local F.B.I. agent borrowed my Makarov with the Federal Arms barrel installed to fire a couple of 9x17 rounds through it a few weeks ago as part of this investigation.
It had been over 8 years since I had purchased the barrel from Federal Arms and I had moved since buying the Federal Arms barrel but naturally the F.B.I. tracked me down.
Federal Arms Corp. is very helpful to law enforcement since they retain all purchase records forever and are more than willing to share them as needed.
A friend in the Seattle area sent me the following link to the latest news on the subject
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2001128276_wales17.html

goldwing2000

07-24-2003, 11:36 AM

Agents hope the gun can be found but believe it has already been disposed of.

Well, no sh*t. Even if it hadn't been disposed of immediately, it sure as hell has been now, after the media feeding frenzy.

Dumbasses... :wtf: :?

G22

07-24-2003, 12:55 PM

Welcome to MGOUC owner. 8)

owner

07-24-2003, 02:39 PM

Welcome to MGOUC owner. 8)
Thanks for the welcome.
I probably would not be posting messages but I was irritated by what I considered an invasion of privacy in general and specifically the fact that Federal Arms keeps records of all transactions forever.
Fortunately the local F.B.I. agent was very easy to get along with and was very open about the situation so there was a minimum of hassle involved.

Divegeek

07-25-2003, 01:39 PM

I was wondering if you had got your gun and barrel back, from the feds yet.

owner

07-28-2003, 09:20 PM

I was wondering if you had got your gun and barrel back, from the feds yet.
The local F.B.I. agent returned the Makarov pistol a couple of days after borrowing it to shoot the two 9x17 mm rounds.

Jim Simmons

08-01-2003, 08:19 PM

In conjunction with two other lawyers, I am soliciting INTEREST in a multiple-party challenge to these subpoenas.

I am looking for a minimum of 20 Makarov barrel owners, willing to pledge $2,000 each to such a defense fund. Federal criminal law attorneys tell me it'll cost about that much to launch a challenge, whether for one person, or for 20, or 100.

I will not be making a dime off this; I'm volunteering to coordinate betweeen the plaintiffs and the attorneys handling the defense. I will only charge for out-of-pocket costs.

At this point, send NO money. I am looking to see if there's enough committment to this concept.

Could someone who is on the Makarov talklist please post this there? Thanks.

Jim Simmons
Law Offices of James T. Simmons, P.C
45700 Village Boulevard
Shelby Township, MI 48315-6093
(586) 566-1900
(586) 532-4110 fax
jtsimmons@jtsimmons.com

BigDaddy40

08-01-2003, 10:02 PM

Jim Simmons

08-02-2003, 01:52 AM

Completely separate issue, BigD.

The Makarov thing is not an organizational issue -- not MGO's or MCRGO's. I have a client I'm trying to represent, and there are others out there dealing with the same issue. Moreover, it's not just a Michigan issue; people from all over the country are being slapped with these subpoenas. Moreover, all the actual filing and fighting will probably be accomplished in the Federal District Court in Seattle WA.

So it's not a Michigan issue.

With the Wayne County issue, we continue to have the same problem -- there's no effective remedy. Sure, I could take your money, sue in Wayne Circuit and get a judge to decide that the gun board is in violation of the statute -- assuming we didn't get dismissed on governmental immunity grounds first.

So we get a judgment that the Wayne gun board is too bleedin' slow. That and 6 bits'll get you a cuppa joe. Not much else. No judge will order that they go faster. And even if you get it, how do you enforce such an order? You can't.

That's why there's been no action on Wayne County.

BigDaddy40

08-02-2003, 12:30 PM

Kouger

08-02-2003, 12:37 PM

BigDaddy40

08-02-2003, 04:14 PM

we've disagreed on this before and probably always will. i'll never believe that we can't force them to follow the law.

wayne will never get better as long as we're willing to let them stay in violation. all they'll do is give us the mushroom treatment.

i suspect attitudes will change when renewals take a year to process.

we all have opinions.....and i happent o agree with Jim on this..even if we win.how do you force the county to comply????????????

if we win, we have a court order. it would be up to the court to enforce it. how do you enforce any municipality to follow the law? same way as ferndale, saline, dunnings in ingham.

everyone just goes along with the idea that there's nothing we can do. i'm of the opinion that doing something besides begging would be an improvement. with this attitude, ccw in michigan never would have happened and ferndale and saline would still be violating our rights. how are we enforcing those judgements????????

the only place we've ever won is in court.

ficano told us he would fix it if we just voted for him. we did
then the wisdom was to give him time since he was just taking office. we did.

using this argument, how can we expect the government to follow any law? it's a shame that we've been rendered helpless in our largest county and have been reduced to begging elected officials to follow the law.

Jim Simmons

08-03-2003, 12:13 AM

if we win, we have a court order. it would be up to the court to enforce it. how do you enforce any municipality to follow the law? same way as ferndale, saline, dunnings in ingham.

Sorry BigD, but it's up to the PARTY to enforce a court order, not the Court. And as a matter of statutory and state constitutional law, there are certain things a Court cannot do. One is take over a county government.

everyone just goes along with the idea that there's nothing we can do. i'm of the opinion that doing something besides begging would be an improvement.

Precisely what do you want to do? Like I said before, I will be very glad to take your money and sue Wayne County -- at $150/hour, with a $5,000 retainer. And we have a better than even money chance of receiving an order saying they're in violation of the law. Now what? What do you think happens now? A whole lot of us who feel the same way that you do, and are knowledgeable about what we can and cannot accomplish using the legal process have come to the same answer -- BUPKUS.

Why is this different from Ferndale? Because in Ferndale, we have an order PROHIBITING them from doing something. They do what they're prohibited from doing, that's contempt. Moreover, anyone who gets ticketed for violating a Ferndale ordinance now has an ironclad defense (platinum-clad once we win in the MSC.)

In the Wayne County case, there's the matter of civil immunity; the matter of the elected county officials' right to allocate resources as they see fit (and they're elected officials -- the political process remains an available option), and the fact that the statute does provide a remedy for tardy processing -- a temporary license -- and Wayne IS issuing those.

I realize you're frustrated, BigD; don't you think the rest of us are, too? But like I said, if you wanna cough up $5,000 for me to proceed, and sign my retainer agreement in which I make clear that I do not promise or guarantee a particular result, I will be GLAD to take your money, and I will be GLAD to spend it in a real, genuine, dyed-in-the-wool, boy-scout, go-for-broke attempt to Change the World. And in all candor, there is some possibility -- greater than zero, but how much greater, I really can't say -- that we'd accomplish something.

Now, does anyone have any additional info on Makarov owners receiving subpoenas?

BigDaddy40

08-03-2003, 03:21 AM

Sorry BigD, but it's up to the PARTY to enforce a court order, not the Court. And as a matter of statutory and state constitutional law, there are certain things a Court cannot do. One is take over a county government.

who said anything about the court taking over the county?

Precisely what do you want to do? Like I said before, I will be very glad to take your money and sue Wayne County -- at $150/hour, with a $5,000 retainer. And we have a better than even money chance of receiving an order saying they're in violation of the law. Now what? What do you think happens now? A whole lot of us who feel the same way that you do, and are knowledgeable about what we can and cannot accomplish using the legal process have come to the same answer -- BUPKUS.

so you and the rest of the knowledgeable would do what if every county in michigan adopted wayne's attitude? guess we'd be sol. personally, i don't appreciate the condensending attitude although i understand your reasons behind it.

wringing hands and wailing about how we can't win isn't the attitude of a gun rights org, it's the lament of a gun club. judging from my email on the subject, i'd say you and the knowledgable are in the minority.

Why is this different from Ferndale? Because in Ferndale, we have an order PROHIBITING them from doing something. They do what they're prohibited from doing, that's contempt.

NOW you're getting it!!! suing wayne would result in the same thing.

In the Wayne County case, there's the matter of civil immunity; the matter of the elected county officials' right to allocate resources as they see fit (and they're elected officials -- the political process remains an available option), and the fact that the statute does provide a remedy for tardy processing -- a temporary license -- and Wayne IS issuing those.

like $6 million to rehab duggan's office? as far as the political process, we fell for that once.
a county has to allocate resources to enable them to follow the law. isn't that the basic reason there are government bodies? your reasoning states that if someone with budget authority can just not fund operations he/she doesn't like??? LOL that's the lamest excuse i've seen yet. what's surprising to me is so many go along with it.

But like I said, if you wanna cough up $5,000 for me to proceed, and sign my retainer agreement in which I make clear that I do not promise or guarantee a particular result, I will be GLAD to take your money, and I will be GLAD to spend it in a real, genuine, dyed-in-the-wool, boy-scout, go-for-broke attempt to Change the World.

i saw the troll for more business the first time. i'd only hire an attorney that thinks he can win and who only would ask for payment for winning. i'm funny that way, i only want fighters on my team. it would cost a fraction of what you're quoting. stay tuned jim, you may just see a few citizens accomplish it for less than $500.

good luck with the $40,000. i think it's odd that you'll "volunteer" to help 20 people, but will charge a fellow activist $5000/+$150 an hour to fight wayne. personally, i told the fbi to get a court order to compel my cooperation. what would i get for my $2000?

Dan

08-03-2003, 12:44 PM

BigDaddy40

08-03-2003, 05:21 PM

There are three things we can do with WaCo.

1. Nothing.

2. A Lawsuit. Two questions there.
A. Can we win?
B. What would it acclomplish if we do with. Will the order be enforced? Is it possible to enforce it?

3. Vote the bums out.

Anyone want to become a "Democrat"(we got RINOS, what about a few DINOS) Downriver or in the City of Detroit? Any Republicans in NW Wayne? Either party in SW Wayne or Redford? GOP'ers in Grosse Ile?

City Council and Township Board/Trustees may need replacing as well. Great for Republicans in Dem areas since some of those spots are 'non partisan'.

It looks to me that we need some new blood there. What's that old saying. If the job isn't done right, do it ourselves?

i agree with you, but I'm not willing to wait until the next election cycle, then 6 months after they take office to see some progress. No offense, but been there done that.

i'm not trying to slam anyone, but it's bad enough that we have to ask the state for a permission slip to exercise our rights, but to have a county blatantly disregard the law after a couple of years, it too much.

It's really bothering me that all these activists are of the opinion that nothing can be done. If we always had that attitude, we wouldn't have the $hitty ccw law we now have. Whenever a new idea is put forth it's always shot down as not doable.

I've got two friends waiting in wayne now and their families have been instructed to sue them to death if something happens to them while waiting for Ficano to get his head out, forcing them to walk around unarmed.

I think the legal minds here aren't thinking creatively enough about this. Every gun lawsuit that's ever been brought has been told it will never work. Personally I think it's way past time to send a message. We're either serious as a gun rights group, or we have a pretty good gun club. There are judges out there who are sick to death of wayne's shenanigans. I see no reason why we couldn't force compliance with a judgement. Contempt of court is still contempt and enforceable.

win, lose or draw.

Jim Simmons

08-04-2003, 12:57 AM

All right, Mr. Big Daddy, what is your major malfunction?

i'd only hire an attorney that thinks he can win and who only would ask for payment for winning. i'm funny that way, i only want fighters on my team. it would cost a fraction of what you're quoting. stay tuned jim, you may just see a few citizens accomplish it for less than $500.

First of all, I can play the "I'm sure we can win" game with the best of 'em. It's called salesmanship and no litigator goes without it. My approach is a little different: I like to be HONEST. And that means if I think your case is a dog, I'm gonna tell you it's a dog, up front. Then, if you still want to proceed, I'll do my damndest for you. But I will charge you a fair market price for my services.

And as to "only ask for payment for winning," I challenge you to find a lawyer willing to take your case on that basis. You're not a personal injury victim that'll give a third of a settlement to Sam Bernstein. You are a very unpopular guy amongst most lawyers -- a pro gun rights activist -- and you're looking for a lawyer that will spend the time and money to accomplish an unaccomplishable goal -- moreover, a goal that, even if successful, doesn't pay money. And just precisely what do you expect before you agree to pay? Reduction to what . . . 30 days for fingerprinting? How about processing within three months after receipt of the fingerprint report from the MSP? Fair enough? No lawyer is going to take on a case like this on that basis. But prove me wrong. Find one!

I'm giving you an honest assessment of the legal realities involved in a suit against Wayne County. If you think that the legal minds here "aren't thinking creatively enough about this," then I suggest you haul your sorry butt to college, get yourself a degree, then make your way to law school, get your J.D., pass the bar exam, and figure it out yourself. Because it's real clear that the rest of us silly lawyers are just too damn dumb for you.

Here's how I suggest you start: That little key marked "shift" on either side of your keyboard? You know the one? Good! If you hold it down when you press a letter key, then magically, a CAPITAL letter appears! Cool, right? Well, here's how to really impress those college admission folks: Use the "shift" key on the first letter of each new sentence. That's called "punctuation" and they really like to see it!

Oh, and one last thing. When you said:

i think it's odd that you'll "volunteer" to help 20 people, but will charge a fellow activist $5000/+$150 an hour to fight wayne. personally, i told the fbi to get a court order to compel my cooperation. what would i get for my $2000?

that really pissed me off. You won't find another lawyer in the State of Michigan, with the exception of Dan and Carol Bambery, or David Bieganowski, who has donated more time to the rights of gun owners than me. And when the FBI serves you with a subpoena to appear before a federal grand jury, "subpoena" is legalese for "court order". But you'll learn that when you get to law school.

Jerk.

BigDaddy40

08-05-2003, 11:31 AM

LOL! Thanks for the witty retort Jimmy.

Funny thing about you lawyers, you think your opinions make you special. Your views are just that, your views and no more valid than anyone else's.

Fortunately, I can read the law same as you. That's just one of the bennies I got out of obtaining my MA.

I also don't understand why you would assume I would be interested in hiring a lawyer such as yourself. I clearly stated the opposite. Thanks for the offer anyway.

With regards to your latest pounding of your chest and all your good works, I've given you credit in the past for the things you've accomplished. That said, you've also spent alot of time trolling for business amoung people here and over there.

I see no need to get into a pi$$ing contest just because my opinions on wayne differ from yours. Every time this happens you react like a child blathering on and on about how qualified you are and how the rest of us are in the dark since we don't have your vaunted knowledge of the law. I will tell you this, the powers that be in Saline were alot more nervous about my lawsuit challenging them on Constitutional grounds than they were of mcgro's. The fact that they were forced into compliance with the law was the goal and I commend all who were involved in making that happen, including you.

If something is to happen in wayne that you aren't a part of, I would hope for at least your moral support as a gun activist. When things are changed there without your help, it won't reflect on your reputation whatsoever. You will still be considered by many here as the gun rights legal guru. I also won't let you spout off unchallenged for the chicken little posts as the great unwashed attempt to do something positive for wayne co.

I may be a jerk, but I'm only interested in getting things done. I'm not afraid to try nor am I interested in getting any credit for trying.

As I said before, good luck with your fund raising activities and I hope you are successful in your battle with the FBI. Please keep us all informed of your success.

PS: there are several lawyers with a couple of national gun rights groups who are willing to get into it here in Michigan. I've stated this before and got no interest whatsoever. Their view is if we aren't willing to fight for our rights why should they come in here with membership funds and do it for us? Gun rights activists in Michigan are known around the country for trying to make nice with politicians instead of fighting hard. It's kind of hard arguing when that truth is so obvious.

yengese

08-18-2003, 01:20 PM

Hit very close to home on Friday
On Friday morning Agent Terry Booth showed up at my door. I let him inside to talk at my kitchen tabel. I said I knew what he was here for and let him speak. He seemed very suprised I knew the details. I was straight with him, letting him know that I could've lied, but I plan on being a Naval Officer and not being truthful with the FBI might have an impact on that. I told him that he could have the barrel if he swapped mine out for a new one, since I didn't want .380 fired through the 9x18 barrel. He said the FBI had no provision for that. I said, well put yourself in my shoes. He then said I was under no pressure, but that Seattle would probably send a court order for it, ( I do not believe he was bluffing). He was very courteous, non threatening, but VERY INTELLIGENT! I asked when he checked the records that I had bought the barrel, when the puchase date was. He did not have that info. I replied, in shock, " The FBI does not know when I purchased the barrel, you guys are supposed to be top notch?!??" I told him I would check the date I bought it. After five minutes on the phone with FAC they told me I bought the barrel AFTER the murder, ( I purchased the barrel on the 22 of tOctober 2001, when I had a full cast on my right arm) I called Agent Booth and told him of this, and he said he would contact Seattle, but he thinks that they would not need to test my barrel. I will keep you posted
I had trouble sleeping all night, I was so pissed off about this. How can they seize property like this. THe big factor is the presumption of guilt. I have to prove there was no way I did it. IT should be the other way around. No way are they getting my barrel. I told my wife that even if I have to go into debt hiring a lawyer to fight this, so be it. SHe understands. THe FBI hasn't even done a complete job in investigating this thing. After I get it in writing that I have no connection to this event, I will be calling reps, senators, tv stations, anyone, everyone to try to get this out into the open. You think the NRA would help fight against this, where are they!!!!

mohavesam

08-19-2003, 10:23 AM

Y'all need to check the dictionary. The FBI is NOT "seizing" any property.

They are ASKING for voluntary cooperation in a federal investigation of a captial offense (a murder). There is NOTHING illegal about this.

No one has been subpoena'd TTBOMK. One can say yes, or one can say no.

As (an apparently) badly-needed point-of-reference here - Some years ago in AZ a Phoenix reporter was murdered in his car. The FBI asked for purchase records from all explosives (det cap) supliers in a multi-state area, then asked all purchasers for inventories and use records. Some said no, some said 'here you go'.

yengese

08-19-2003, 01:11 PM

Yes, I was asked, but also informed that Seattle would send a court order that would require me to submit it for testing. He was very straight about this. I have also heard rumors of people not getting their stuff back. I faxed the agent the invoice, but have not heard back from him yet.

Jim Simmons

08-19-2003, 05:54 PM

I have two clients who have received the subpoena to appear. Unfortunately, due to financial constraints, both have decided to surrender their barrels for testing.

Yes it's outrageous, but it's expensive to fix.

Toxie

08-20-2003, 12:30 AM

On the plus side, if they DO subpoena the barrels, THEY have to pay shipping costs both ways.

yengese

08-21-2003, 01:20 PM

The agent called and said that since I bought the barrel after the murder date, they would not need my barrel. So I am free and clear. Now to send out letters.

Quaamik

08-24-2003, 09:32 PM

I feel bound to come to Jims defense here.

I have read his posts, and it's obvious that he is not simply trying to " 'volunteer' to help 20 people". He has several clients that have been affected by this action of the FBI. He obviously knows there are many more people who are being affected. He also obviously feels strongly enough about how wrong it is that he is willing to fight it at cost.

However, he has been upfront that this is a very expensive case to fight, and he is trying to gather a number of people so the cost can be spread around. He decided 20 was a good number. Somehow I doubt he would turn down 10 if they came up with the requisite funds. In civil cases, I think that would be called a "class action" suit.

Before you start critizing him, think: How would you feel if it was YOUR gun the FBI wanted? How would you feel if you were one of thousands of people who bought a particulare make/model of barrel or firearm, and the FBI called you and wanted your gun for a few days to test it (with the possibility of damaging it) to try to solve a year and a half old murder? Especially knowing that there is always the chance of being wrongfully incriminated yourself, not to mention the fact that the FBI is real unlikely to ever dispose of those balistic records?

Quaamik

08-24-2003, 09:37 PM

On the plus side, if they DO subpoena the barrels, THEY have to pay shipping costs both ways.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and if so i hope Jim corrects me, but they aren't subpoenaing the barrels. They are asking the owners to voluntarily turn them (with the gun attached) over for testing. If the owners refuse, the subpoena is for the owner to go to Seattle and appear before a Grand Jury.

And unless I miss my guess, that would be at the owners expense, and if they refused, it's a felony warrant that would be issued when they missed thier court date.

Toxie

08-25-2003, 12:31 AM

Nope, if you are subpoena'd, the issuing court system MUST pay your transportation costs.

I had MANY an internet case foiled because the WACO Prosecutors office would not pay to subpoena out-of-state witnesses.