Another fool

[ANIMAL]

When the Minnesota State Fair opens Thursday, visitors will see signs at entrances banning guns from the fairgrounds. Fair officials say the ban on guns has been in place for decades, and makes practical sense. Gun rights advocates say the fair has no legal authority under Minnesota's new concealed carry law to prevent permit-holders from bringing handguns to the fair. They say if the fair goes ahead, it'll likely face a lawsuit.


St. Paul, Minn. — Minnesota State Fair Director Jerry Hammer says it makes no more sense to allow guns at the fair than it does to allow archers to shoot arrows on the midway.



Fair director Jerry Hammer

"It's just common sense. I don't know that I can really elaborate much more on that," says Hammer. "There's not a large fair in the country, or theme park, that allows weapons. It's common sense."

Hammer says there are simply too many people around the fairgrounds to allow weapons. He says the Minnesota State Fair is a safe place, leaving no need for people to protect themselves.

But the organization Concealed Carry Reform Now, which successfully lobbied for the recently passed Minnesota Personal Protection Act, says the fair has no right to prohibit permit-holders from bringing their handguns into the fair.

"They're outside the law, outside of their authority and they know better," says the group's attorney David Gross.

“

They're outside the law, outside of their authority and they know better. ... They're trying to limit the exercise of a permit to carry.
- David Gross, attorney for Concealed Carry Reform Now


”

Gross says it's not even a gray area -- that the law explicitly states public places, like the fair, have no authority to ban guns.

"The property is owned by the state of Minnesota. The statute says no sheriff, police chief, governmental unit, governmental official, government employee or other person or body, acting under color of law or governmental authority, may limit the exercise of a permit to carry. And they're trying to limit the exercise of a permit to carry," Gross says.

State Fair attorney Kent Harbison says the fair's no-gun policy is nothing new -- for decades, the fair has banned weapons out of public safety concerns.

He says fair staff posted signs about the ban this year because of all of the attention surrounding Minnesota's new law.

Harbison says fair staff has every intention of enforcing the ban, and that the administration feels "fairly confident that its position is long-standing, and makes a lot of sense."

"If they found anyone violating the policy, they would simply ask them to leave the fairgrounds. And if there were any resistance to that, any problem, then they might just refer to the police," says Harbison. "But I don't think the State Fair intends to make any kind of a big scene about it. They just want to go on with the way they've been doing things for many years, and hope everyone else understands and respects that."



Crowds at the fair

David Gross from the gun rights group says if officials attempt to remove someone from the fairgrounds who's legally carrying a handgun, that person will have a strong civil rights claim against the State Fair. And Gross says it would be a claim he'd be happy to litigate.

"If an individual who is subject to enforcement comes to me, you can take it to the bank. OK? It would be the same thing as if an African American went to polling place and they said, 'Well, you've got a right to vote, but not here,'" says Gross.

If a lawsuit emerges from the State Fair's gun ban, it won't be the first litigation in response to Minnesota's Personal Protection Act. In June, several churches won a temporary court order allowing them to ban guns using customized signage that does not conform to criteria spelled out in the law.

[G22]

I hope someone has the fortitude to be a test case & sue their A$$.
From the way the new law is written, it sounds like a slam-dunk case.

[bluethunder]

I take exception to the statement that "no fair or theme park in the country allows concealed carry." If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Disney World in Fla. allow concealed carry?

[goldwing2000]

I take exception to the statement that "no fair or theme park in the country allows concealed carry." If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Disney World in Fla. allow concealed carry?

I don't think so. Ever since 9/11, they have guards stationed at every entrance checking through packages and hand bags (although I can't find anything on their web site). Even if they did, though, you wouldn't be able to carry on a MI CPL. It's an entertainment facility and seats a whole helluva lot more than 2500 people.

[bluethunder]

Here I go thinking again,but I thought when you were in another state you abided by their rules,not ours. Just like when people come here,they have to use our laws.

[mohavesam]

"It would be the same thing as if an African American went to polling place and they said, 'Well, you've got a right to vote, but not here,'" says Gross. "

Nice anaolgy! Is anyone listening in Michigan???

Now if a badged officer forcibly removed one from a (fairgrounds) place, in violation of state law, would that constitute felony kidnapping? And would that nt amount to a breach of the peace, an offense applicable to MI's 'Arrest by a private person" laws?

Hmmm???

[goldwing2000]

Here I go thinking again,but I thought when you were in another state you abided by their rules,not ours. Just like when people come here,they have to use our laws.

Yes and no. Sometimes you have to abide by both. It's a weird situation sometimes.

[bluethunder]

Yes and no. Sometimes you have to abide by both. It's a weird situation sometimes.


I hear that, it's making my head hurt,right now. :?

[Scoop]

I take exception to the statement that "no fair or theme park in the country allows concealed carry." If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Disney World in Fla. allow concealed carry? And I take exception to THIS statement:

"Hammer says there are simply too many people around the fairgrounds to allow weapons. He says the Minnesota State Fair is a safe place, leaving no need for people to protect themselves"

Isn't a church a crowded, "safe" place? How about a high school in Colorado with hundreds and hundreds of people? A child care facility in California? Or a crowded restaurant in Texas?

That's one of the most ignorant things I've heard in quite some time.

Yet another genius hanging out the "Rob Our Defenseless Patrons Here" sign. What a crock!

[bluethunder]

That's one of the most ignorant things I've heard in quite some time.

Yet another genius hanging out the "Rob Our Defenseless Patrons Here" sign. What a crock!


Hey must be running for office,after the fair gig is over. :wink:

[G22]

"Hammer says there are simply too many people around the fairgrounds to allow weapons. He says the Minnesota State Fair is a safe place, leaving no need for people to protect themselves"

Thats a very bold statement.

Mr. Hammer IMHO needs to be put on active notice that if anyone is hurt or killed because of his ban, he would be personally held liable.

I wonder if he would change his tune if he knew how many people would sue HIM for not protecting them?
Probably not...

[AimHigh]

Golwing2000 wrote:
I don't think so. Ever since 9/11, they have guards stationed at every entrance checking through packages and hand bags (although I can't find anything on their web site). Even if they did, though, you wouldn't be able to carry on a MI CPL. It's an entertainment facility and seats a whole helluva lot more than 2500 people.


I don't believe Fl has the same rules as MI. There does not appear to be a 2500 limit anywhere.

Here are the Florida Places off-limits while carrying (from Packing.org)

*Any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05
*any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station;
*any detention facility, prison, or jail;
*any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom;
*any polling place;
*any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district;
*any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof;
*any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms;
*any school administration building;
*any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;
*any elementary or secondary school facility;
*any area vocational-technical center;
*any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile;
*inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or
*any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law

[Jim Simmons]

Here I go thinking again,but I thought when you were in another state you abided by their rules,not ours. Just like when people come here,they have to use our laws.

A resident of another state with that state's CPL, who comes into Michigan, has to comply with their home state's law and Michigan law.

Most states do it the same way.

[Red Sector A]

I don't think so. Ever since 9/11, they have guards stationed at every entrance checking through packages and hand bags (although I can't find anything on their web site). Even if they did, though, you wouldn't be able to carry on a MI CPL. It's an entertainment facility and seats a whole helluva lot more than 2500 people.

Two comments here...

1). When I was in Florida and went to Universal, there were no signs but they were checking peoples bag and purses, but if I had been carrying in a traditional manner (holster) they wouldnt have found it. There were no metal detectors.

2). Would a park (seems that Disney, Universal, etc are parks, they do call theme parks) be considered an entertainment facility under MI law? Sure the park holds much more than 2500 people but they are not all in one place. It's not like Tiger Stadium or Ford Field, etc where everyone is under one roof. Even when I was in one of the building(attractions) there were never close to 2500 people in them at one time. If the law considers theme parks as 'entertainment facilities' then something like the Fair (I seen in another thread) would be considered one too. I know there is a difference in that one if private property and the other isnt, but I am just wondering about this... hmmm?


Just thoughts, I would like to hear what others think.. But oh wait.. here I go expressing my thoughts again. :( Oh well...

[AimHigh]

My question is, how would the LEO in another state know the laws of MI when some LEOs don't even know all the laws of their own states?

I thought that when you travel to another state, you had to abide by THAT states laws. It is difficult to believe we would have to abide by laws of 2 or more states and compress them into 1.

What if you have a CCW from MI and one from FL and go to TX. Since TX doesn't accept MI but does accept a FL licence would we now be charged with complying with all 3 state's laws??? Seems unlikely. Prove me wrong, please.

[taurus92]

I take exception to the statement that "no fair or theme park in the country allows concealed carry." If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Disney World in Fla. allow concealed carry?

I don't think so. Ever since 9/11, they have guards stationed at every entrance checking through packages and hand bags (although I can't find anything on their web site). Even if they did, though, you wouldn't be able to carry on a MI CPL. It's an entertainment facility and seats a whole helluva lot more than 2500 people.

That restriction only appllies to carrying in MIchigan. We abide by FL. restrictions when carrying in FL.

[gruvinbass]

The prohibited places for MI law are listed on the back of the blue card, but I don't know about the new ones that are issued since July 1st.

[taurus92]

When I have called states that I visit they tell me the list of places and only their states list applies

[enfield]

A resident of another state with that state's CPL, who comes into Michigan, has to comply with their home state's law and Michigan law.

Most states do it the same way.

If I were a Florida resident carrying in Michigan, how would a Michigan LEO know (or why would he care) if I was violating Florida law in Michigan? How would a Florida LEO know I was violating Florida law in Michigan? Is Florida law Michigan law? Is Michigan responsible for enforcing Florida laws on Florida residents in Michigan? I don't understand this at all -- pls explain.

[BigDaddy40]

you follow the laws of the state you're carrying in, not both

[Jim Simmons]

MCL 750.231a(1)(a).

Subsection (2) of section 227 [prohibiting carrying a concealed pistol] does not apply to any of the following:

(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

So assuming that the home state's restricted places appear on the CPL, the out-of-state resident needs to comply with the carry restrictions of their home state and Michigan.

[BigDaddy40]

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)


Act 328 of 1931

750.2 Rule of construction.
Sec. 2.

Rule of construction—The rule that a penal statute is to be strictly construed shall not apply to this act or any of the provisions thereof. All provisions of this act shall be construed according to the fair import of their terms, to promote justice and to effect the objects of the law.


History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;--CL 1948, 750.2 .



750.3 Civil rights or remedies not affected.
Sec. 3.

Civil rights or remedies not affected—The provisions of this act are not to be deemed to affect any civil rights or remedies existing at the time when this act takes effect, by virtue of the common law or of any provision of statute.


History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;--CL 1948, 750.3 .




750.4 Civil remedies preserved.
Sec. 4.

Civil remedies preserved—The omission to specify or affirm in this act any liability to damages, penalty, forfeiture or other remedy, imposed by law, and allowed to be recovered, or enforced in any civil action or proceeding, for any act or omission declared punishable herein does not affect any right to recover or enforce the same.


History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;--CL 1948, 750.4 .




interesting.... but what do you expect when negotiating inalienable rights...

[BigDaddy40]

Here's an interesting thought:

If a Florida CCW holder carries in Michigan and complies with all Michigan laws, but is found, while in Michigan, to have violated one of Florida's rules on carrying.

Who prosecutes? Under your scenario, Michigan would prosecute him for violating Florida law. How is that possible? And what would be Michigan's juristiction and authority?

[enfield]

The restrictions appearing on my card are no longer 100% correct, as of July 1. Would make an interesting situation if Michigan prosecuted someone for a violation of restrictions appearing on their card, when the card is in error. What a can of worms!

[Quaamik]

I take exception to the statement that "no fair or theme park in the country allows concealed carry." If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Disney World in Fla. allow concealed carry?

I don't think so. Ever since 9/11, they have guards stationed at every entrance checking through packages and hand bags (although I can't find anything on their web site). Even if they did, though, you wouldn't be able to carry on a MI CPL. It's an entertainment facility and seats a whole helluva lot more than 2500 people.

Yes, Disney does allow concealed carry. They check ONLY bags, and that is only a curtsory check (I assume for explosives). They are very courtous about informing visitors of it beforehand, warning them that if they have anything of a "personal nature" in thier bags that they don't wish the security to see, please return it to your vehicle. The security was VERY courtous, being thourogh enough to check even my daughters belly purse, but being much more pleasant than any security I'd ever seen in Michigan.

They did NOT check anything but packages. And I don't see how a Michigan permit wouldn't be valid there, it's just like the state fair and you can carry there (I checked, only the areans are off limits).

Lets just leave it that I'm certain more than one person was carrying at Disney.

[Quaamik]

I think that if you were a Fl resident, carrying under your Fl CCW in Mi in an area that Fl restricted you from carrying under your CCW, you would be prosecuted by Mi for carrying concealed without a valid permit.

The reasoning that your Fl permit wasn't valid were you were carrying.

I also assume that the same would apply to a Michigan resident carrying in Florida.

[enfield]

I also assume that the same would apply to a Michigan resident carrying in Florida.

I wouldn't assume that. For example, as far as I know Indiana has no requirement that a visitor carry under the restrictions of their home state. I didn't see that anywhere in their gun laws. I don't recall seeing such a provision in the laws I reviewed (from the ATF website) for about 20 other states I've been through this year. I could be wrong, but I didn't see it.

I can't imagine how it would come to pass that I'd be, for example, subject to the laws of Michigan while I'm in Florida. When I'm in Florida, I'm subject to Florida and Federal law, and when I'm in Michigan, I'm subject to Michigan and Federal law. If that isn't true, then I must be subject to Florida law right now, along with 49 other states, Belarus and Fiji.