.410 000 patterns

[PaulB84]

I understand that the .410 is generally thought to be a poor HD/SD chambering. Out of something like the judge I would have to agree

But after reading about Dixie Slug's Triball, it got me thinking about patterns.

Does anyone have any experience with shooting .410 000 buck (three pellets stacked vertically in the shell, very little potential for interfering with each other) out of a "normal" barrel length? say 18-28"?

I imagine it would pattern very well out of something like an 870 with almost zero recoil....could be an overlooked HD option for the recoil sensative.

let the flaming begin... :)

[Done Deal]

While some gun is better than no gun.....

my thoughts would be for "recoil sensative" folks to go to a 9mm or similar carbine for HD so as to have the tools adequate to get the job done.

[robvas]

20 gauge

AR15 (much more expensive)
AK74

or basically any kind of semi-auto rifle

.410 just doesn't pack enough punch.

[PaulB84]

OK guys, I appreciate the responses but try and read the OP thoroughly before responding. The question was about pattern size, not whether the .410 is the best choice for HD.

That said, the Winchester SuperX 3" .410 000 shell (first one that came up when I searched) is loaded with 5 (not 3 as I first thought) 000 pellets stacked vertically. Published velocity is 1135fps. This is almost identical, maybe a few FPS slower, to a low recoil 12 gauge 000 or 00 buck round commonly used for HD.

Now, since I could blow off 2 or 3 .410 rounds out of a pump in very short order, and if all 5 of those pellets stayed as tight as I suspect they would, I'd say the .410 has been unfairly maligned.

Please note, I have 3 870 12 gauges loaded with low recoil 00 scattered (ha) around the house. I am not saying the .410 is a replacement for a more capable caliber. It is just so often bashed and dismissed I thought I would do a little investigation. I guess the only way to know for sure is find a .410 and test it myself...:book:

[PaulB84]

my thoughts would be for "recoil sensative" folks to go to a 9mm or similar carbine for HD so as to have the tools adequate to get the job done.

I'm thinking less for recoil sensative than I am for someone who wants a VERY tight pattern out of a shotgun. The TriBall load can be covered with a palm at 40 yards...inside of that its even closer. Now a properly set up 12 gauge can also achieve very nice patterns if you know what you're doing, but if the .410 patterns as well as i suspect given that the shot is stacked vertically, I might rather have that than a 20 or 12 that throws a 12" pattern at 15 yards. IMHO, keeping all the pellets inside a torso is the name of the game for HD. Just food for thought.

[sse]

I don't know much about the .410, but I did get one a few months ago. With my first box of shells, I looked at the target and saw the pattern, plus a big hole as part of the pattern. I guess they put one or more discs in there. That's quite a combination. I have seen ads for I believe Winchester .410 ammo that does mention the shot plus inclusion of the larger disc of copper plated lead. Also, I see there are wheel guns chambered in a .410. At close range that may be prettty effective.

[robvas]

http://www.fourten.org.uk/mwbuck.html

I'd like to see what it patterns like at 5-10 yards.

Some penetration tests would be nice too.

[sse]

Mine is a singe shot, 28" barrel shot gun. 10 yds or less the pattern looked pretty good. I'd like to see the pattern out of a short barrel wheelgun.

[Done Deal]

Now, since I could blow off 2 or 3 .410 rounds out of a pump in very short order, and if all 5 of those pellets stayed as tight as I suspect they would, I'd say the .410 has been unfairly maligned.



Unfairly maligned as far as patterns or performance? Everybody knows that a .410 shoots everything tight....that is why they make such a lousy first shotgun for kids trying to learn how to wingshoot. Granted, they are hell on bunnies but....

So, for smooth bores....it is the mini gun of the group and the big brothers do things better so, why spend good money on .410 ammo (which never goes on sale) to come up with a load that will always be inferior for killing power?

And, isn't it really lethality you are thinking about rather than pattern?

[PaulB84]

I don't know much about the .410, but I did get one a few months ago. With my first box of shells, I looked at the target and saw the pattern, plus a big hole as part of the pattern. I guess they put one or more discs in there. That's quite a combination. I have seen ads for I believe Winchester .410 ammo that does mention the shot plus inclusion of the larger disc of copper plated lead. Also, I see there are wheel guns chambered in a .410. At close range that may be prettty effective.

What .410 did you get? I'd be very interested to see how 000 buck loads perform out of a full length barrel.

the problem with guns like the judge (or any rifled barrel firing a shotshell) is that the rifling "slings" the shot in a doughnut shape with a big empty spot right in the middle. Now, again, the .410 is unique in that the shot is stacked vertically which somewhat eliminates the issue, but with birdshot it still sucks.

An interesting fact is that some of the long range predator and turkey chokes for 12 gauge have rifling but with no twist, just straight lands and grooves parallel to the barrel. They claim this lines the shot up in neat rows as it exits the barrel, giving tighter patterns. I have always wondered if it was possible to apply this principle to the entire length of the barrel and have a VERY tight patterning gun. AFAIK I've never heard of a gun that utilizes this.

[Done Deal]

What .410 did you get? I'd be very interested to see how 000 buck loads perform out of a full length barrel.

the problem with guns like the judge (or any rifled barrel firing a shotshell) is that the rifling "slings" the shot in a doughnut shape with a big empty spot right in the middle. Now, again, the .410 is unique in that the shot is stacked vertically which somewhat eliminates the issue, but with birdshot it still sucks.

An interesting fact is that some of the long range predator and turkey chokes for 12 gauge have rifling but with no twist, just straight lands and grooves parallel to the barrel. They claim this lines the shot up in neat rows as it exits the barrel, giving tighter patterns. I have always wondered if it was possible to apply this principle to the entire length of the barrel and have a VERY tight patterning gun. AFAIK I've never heard of a gun that utilizes this.


You are right about sheety shot patterns with birdshot out of a pistol lenght barrel. I tried a TC pistol with a 14" bbl and a choke tube that I was going to try for turkeys the year that I was extremely "recoil sensative". Lets just say, when I couldn't get a turkey killing pattern past ten feet....I gave up the idea.

[PaulB84]

Unfairly maligned as far as patterns or performance? Everybody knows that a .410 shoots everything tight....that is why they make such a lousy first shotgun for kids trying to learn how to wingshoot. Granted, they are hell on bunnies but....

So, for smooth bores....it is the mini gun of the group and the big brothers do things better so, why spend good money on .410 ammo (which never goes on sale) to come up with a load that will always be inferior for killing power?

And, isn't it really lethality you are thinking about rather than pattern?

I was under the impression .410s were bad "first shotguns" simply because the amount of shot was far less, the bore is smaller, therefore the pattern is smaller and harder to hit moving targets with. I dont believe that with traditional shot loads they shoot "tighter" than a 20 or 12 comparatively...
the verticle stacking of large caliber shot is what I'm curious about, as cramming shot in horizontially is what blows patterns. IE, the same load out of a 10, 12, and 20 will pattern best out of the 10 due to better verticle spacing.

As far as inferior killing power, I dont get that either. If all 5 000 pellets hit the target out of a .410, and 5 of 9 hit the target out of a 12, that is identical terminal ballistics, no?

[PaulB84]

Mine is a singe shot, 28" barrel shot gun. 10 yds or less the pattern looked pretty good. I'd like to see the pattern out of a short barrel wheelgun.

Box o truth is your friend :)

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

[sse]

Wouldn't wanna get hit by that.

[PaulB84]

Wouldn't wanna get hit by that.

I wouldn't either, but if I HAD to get shot by something, a Judge loaded with birdshot would probably be top of the list

[Tom S.]

Box o truth is your friend :)

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm


Excellent find. Anything with the word shotgun attached to it automatically conjures thoughts of huge amounts of carnage. BoT proved such is not the case for the Judge. Could be why none of the other major manufactures jumped on this idea before.

[Ol` Joe]

My understanding is that all gauges have the same basic velocity, the difference is in how heavy a projectile they toss. I understand there are also "High Velocity and mag" loadings, they too are relatively equal across the gauges, the difference mainly being a heavier payload not more velocity. A standard load in a 410 throws a 11/16oz load of #000 buck at 1135fps fps, a 20ga 3/4 oz @ 1200fps and a 12ga 1 oz @ 1225. That is less then 100 fps total velocity difference I have cronographed more variance then that in factory rifle ammo.
The patterns are based on the percentage of hits in a 30" circle at a fixed range. 50%-cyl, 60%-mod, 70%-full at 40 yard, the exception is the 410 which is tested at 25 yd. All will put the same percentage of pellets in the circle but, due to the smaller gauges having less pellets the amount of hits, thus energy will be less at a given range.
Each pellet carries "X" ft/lb of energy and the amount of energy transferred to the target is based on the amount of pellets that hit it. A 12 ga that puts 4 #3 aught buck in target will have very close to the same energy as a 410 ga that puts the same 4 pellets in the same target.
The 100 fps difference isn`t enough to matter in these cases. OOO buck weights ~ 70 gr average, and at 100 fps works out to ~ 1 ft/lb difference in energy due to that. Each pellet no matter the gauge shotgun that fired it should give equal penetration.
I`d suspect a shotgun at 15ft down a hallway would almost always put all its pellets in a 8" circle or tighter no matter the choke or ga. The larger the gauge the more "bullet wt" and energy on target and likely the better choice. This would hold true with birdshot, buck or slugs.

[Tom S.]

Joe, I agree with a shotgun patterning like that, but not a hand gun. I have a .410 Thompson Contender barrel that's 10" and using #7 shot at about 10 feet, it will cover a full size silhouette target. I doubt if it would kill or even stop someone, but it sure would be a major source of irritation! Probably like being stung by 60 bees simultaneously.

Nevertheless, I'll stick with my 45 acp and .357 Sig!!

[M&P .40]

I don't know much about the .410, but I did get one a few months ago. With my first box of shells, I looked at the target and saw the pattern, plus a big hole as part of the pattern. I guess they put one or more discs in there. That's quite a combination. I have seen ads for I believe Winchester .410 ammo that does mention the shot plus inclusion of the larger disc of copper plated lead. Also, I see there are wheel guns chambered in a .410. At close range that may be prettty effective.

The "big" hole was probably just the wadding going through the target as well.

[miforest]

I don't think they would be quite as good out of a pistol, but 5 x 70 gr = 350Gr. considering at 1150 fps it beats most 44 mag loads, thats REAL thump.

at ranges of real world social situations, a very decisive fight stopper.

even if you lost velocity and the pistol shot the 350 grain payload out at 850 fp, you are looking at a lot more thump than a 45 acp at 230 grain/850 fps.

this assumes 25 yds and under where the whole load would strike an assailant.

[Done Deal]

I was under the impression .410s were bad "first shotguns" simply because the amount of shot was far less, the bore is smaller, therefore the pattern is smaller and harder to hit moving targets with. I dont believe that with traditional shot loads they shoot "tighter" than a 20 or 12 comparatively...
the verticle stacking of large caliber shot is what I'm curious about, as cramming shot in horizontially is what blows patterns. IE, the same load out of a 10, 12, and 20 will pattern best out of the 10 due to better verticle spacing.

As far as inferior killing power, I dont get that either. If all 5 000 pellets hit the target out of a .410, and 5 of 9 hit the target out of a 12, that is identical terminal ballistics, no?

The amount of shot is less due to the smaller bore but....the shot column sent by a .410 is a longer shot column and not so spread out so, essentially tighter on a stationary target but....less lethal on a rapidly moving target as only a portion of the load gets there at any one time.

I don't shoot my 20's much but, in my 3.5 12 will pattern as good as my 10 most days. With factory loads, a 10 really isn't superior to a 3.5 12 when properly choked. The big difference comes in with handloads for 10's where the larger bore can then really prove that it is superior.

But, back to the diminutive .410....it will pattern tight but....is it really what you want to have to stake your life on for HD?

[PaulB84]

My understanding is that all gauges have the same basic velocity, the difference is in how heavy a projectile they toss. I understand there are also "High Velocity and mag" loadings, they too are relatively equal across the gauges, the difference mainly being a heavier payload not more velocity. A standard load in a 410 throws a 11/16oz load of #000 buck at 1135fps fps, a 20ga 3/4 oz @ 1200fps and a 12ga 1 oz @ 1225. That is less then 100 fps total velocity difference I have cronographed more variance then that in factory rifle ammo.
The patterns are based on the percentage of hits in a 30" circle at a fixed range. 50%-cyl, 60%-mod, 70%-full at 40 yard, the exception is the 410 which is tested at 25 yd. All will put the same percentage of pellets in the circle but, due to the smaller gauges having less pellets the amount of hits, thus energy will be less at a given range.
Each pellet carries "X" ft/lb of energy and the amount of energy transferred to the target is based on the amount of pellets that hit it. A 12 ga that puts 4 #3 aught buck in target will have very close to the same energy as a 410 ga that puts the same 4 pellets in the same target.
The 100 fps difference isn`t enough to matter in these cases. OOO buck weights ~ 70 gr average, and at 100 fps works out to ~ 1 ft/lb difference in energy due to that. Each pellet no matter the gauge shotgun that fired it should give equal penetration.
I`d suspect a shotgun at 15ft down a hallway would almost always put all its pellets in a 8" circle or tighter no matter the choke or ga. The larger the gauge the more "bullet wt" and energy on target and likely the better choice. This would hold true with birdshot, buck or slugs.

well said, and exactly what I was driving at. A .410 that puts 100% of its pellets inside a given circle at a given range is much more useful to me than a 12 gauge that puts 50% of its pellets inside the same circle at the same yardage. The energy imparted on the target would be the same, and with far less recoil, and no liability or danger to bystanders or loved ones.

For the record, I still think the 12 gauge is superior but it is important to pick a barrel length, choke, and load that concentrates the most pellets per area.

[PaulB84]

The amount of shot is less due to the smaller bore but....the shot column sent by a .410 is a longer shot column and not so spread out so, essentially tighter on a stationary target but....less lethal on a rapidly moving target as only a portion of the load gets there at any one time.

I don't shoot my 20's much but, in my 3.5 12 will pattern as good as my 10 most days. With factory loads, a 10 really isn't superior to a 3.5 12 when properly choked. The big difference comes in with handloads for 10's where the larger bore can then really prove that it is superior.

But, back to the diminutive .410....it will pattern tight but....is it really what you want to have to stake your life on for HD?

False. The .410 spreads much more rapidly given the verticle density of the shot in the shell. as i stated before, total payload potential aside, the larger gauges will pattern better than smaller ones with the same amount of shot because the stack of shot for the same number of pellets is shorter.

The 3.5" 12 will NOT pattern as well as a 3.5" 10, assuming choke is equal because the shot column is smaller in diameter with more potential for the pellets to interfere with each other as they squeeze out the muzzle.

The pellets coming out the muzzle of the .410 are the same size and going the same speed as out of a 12, so I dont know what you mean about the "diminutive .410" Assuming you had the same # of pellets on target, the results would be identical. 000 is 000 and its going the same speed, no matter what gauge you fire it out of. (assuming the same proportional powder charge. this is where the larger gauges have an advantage, being able to fire the same # of pellets faster due to a larger powder charge. However, as you will find if you test a variety of loads, too much speed invariably ruins patterns. 1100-1250 seems to be the "sweet spot" in my own experience.

For sake of argument, picture a shotgun shell large enough in diameter to take a standard payload, say 1 oz of 7 1/2's or about 350 pellets, and stack the pellets only 1 deep. The pattern at any range would be about diameter of the bore, no bigger.

Obviously, the larger gauges can fire a larger payload as the interior dimensions of the shell is larger.

[PaulB84]

I don't think they would be quite as good out of a pistol, but 5 x 70 gr = 350Gr. considering at 1150 fps it beats most 44 mag loads, thats REAL thump.

at ranges of real world social situations, a very decisive fight stopper.

even if you lost velocity and the pistol shot the 350 grain payload out at 850 fp, you are looking at a lot more thump than a 45 acp at 230 grain/850 fps.

this assumes 25 yds and under where the whole load would strike an assailant.

sorry, but this is dangerous thinking

this is one of those situations where the theory and the real world dont match up.

the name of the game is penetration, and a 70 grain sphere wont go more than a few inches in tissue. the fact that there are 5 or 10 or 100 of them doesnt change that (obviously the energy on target would change given the # of projectiles, but that gets into muzzle energy as a coefficient for stopping power, a whole 'nother can of worms)

conversely, the single 230gr .45 will penetrate something like 11" with a HP and over 2 feet with an FMJ.

[Tom S.]

sorry, but this is dangerous thinking

this is one of those situations where the theory and the real world dont match up.

the name of the game is penetration, and a 70 grain sphere wont go more than a few inches in tissue. the fact that there are 5 or 10 or 100 of them doesnt change that (obviously the energy on target would change given the # of projectiles, but that gets into muzzle energy as a coefficient for stopping power, a whole 'nother can of worms)

conversely, the single 230gr .45 will penetrate something like 11" with a HP and over 2 feet with an FMJ.


I agree 100%. You can't lump the 70 grain shot together to equal 350 grains because each 70 grain pellet has it's own ballistics. In essence, it is like shooting a 70 grain bullet 5 times. That doesn't equal the punch of a 350 grain projectile, only the punch of 5 separate 70 grain projectiles. As Paul points out, the penetration delivered by a 70 grain round projectile won't come close to equaling that of a 230 grain bullet. Additionally, the 70 grain round balls will lose velocity a lot faster than the 230 grain bullet, thanks to Mr. Newton's laws. :mrgreen:

[PaulB84]

I agree 100%. You can't lump the 70 grain shot together to equal 350 grains because each 70 grain pellet has it's own ballistics. In essence, it is like shooting a 70 grain bullet 5 times. That doesn't equal the punch of a 350 grain projectile, only the punch of 5 separate 70 grain projectiles. As Paul points out, the penetration delivered by a 70 grain round projectile won't come close to equaling that of a 230 grain bullet. Additionally, the 70 grain round balls will lose velocity a lot faster than the 230 grain bullet, thanks to Mr. Newton's laws. :mrgreen:

Tom, when I get my multiple spitzer-bullet firing shotty up and running I'll let you know 8)

BTW, the TC you were talking about earlier, is that a rifled barrel or smoothbore? I'm assuming its really a rifled .45LC barrel that also chambers .410 shells....cause if its 10" and smoothbore, wouldnt that be an AOW or SBS?

If it is rifled, thats why the pattern sucks. Also why more companies didnt make a shotgun-pistol before the Judge: federal law prohibits over the counter sales of a smoothbore designed to take shotgun shells with under 18" barrel, and when you do rifle the barrel and make it into a legal pistol, the pattern is blown.

[Tom S.]

Tom, when I get my multiple spitzer-bullet firing shotty up and running I'll let you know 8)

BTW, the TC you were talking about earlier, is that a rifled barrel or smoothbore? I'm assuming its really a rifled .45LC barrel that also chambers .410 shells....cause if its 10" and smoothbore, wouldnt that be an AOW or SBS?

If it is rifled, thats why the pattern sucks. Also why more companies didnt make a shotgun-pistol before the Judge: federal law prohibits over the counter sales of a smoothbore designed to take shotgun shells with under 18" barrel, and when you do rifle the barrel and make it into a legal pistol, the pattern is blown.

It is the rifled barrel with the internal choke (maybe that should be internal joke?). It's a lot of fun to play with, just not really useful for a lot of things. When a bunch of us go shooting indoors, I'll take it and shoot the target of the guy next to me. Then when he runs the target up, I'll stick my head around the partition and make a comment about it looks like it has the measles.

[PaulB84]

It is the rifled barrel with the internal choke (maybe that should be internal joke?). It's a lot of fun to play with, just not really useful for a lot of things. When a bunch of us go shooting indoors, I'll take it and shoot the target of the guy next to me. Then when he runs the target up, I'll stick my head around the partition and make a comment about it looks like it has the measles.

cool :D

[miforest]

MV for the typical load for this is 950 -1000 fps. In its day , an effective gun, standard caliber of the confedrate army . you guys are Way off on your penetration numbers. a 000 buck goes the same velocity from 410, or 12 guage guns. the same lead ball at a higher velocity from a long gun or the same from a 410 judge would be just as deadly as a shot from a 1851 colt pistol . and there are 5 of them at a time from the 410 ! this would make a great defense load . it's why they are becoming so popular.

see winchesters web site here for 12 and 410 guage.

http://www.winchester.com/Products/shotshell-ammunition/super-x/buckshot/Pages/XB413.aspx

http://www.winchester.com/Products/shotshell-ammunition/super-x/buckshot/Pages/SB1200LR.aspx

[PaulB84]

MV for the typical load for this is 950 -1000 fps. In its day , an effective gun, standard caliber of the confedrate army . you guys are Way off on your penetration numbers. a 000 buck goes the same velocity from 410, or 12 guage guns. the same lead ball at a higher velocity from a long gun or the same from a 410 judge would be just as deadly as a shot from a 1851 colt pistol . and there are 5 of them at a time from the 410 ! this would make a great defense load . it's why they are becoming so popular.

see winchesters web site here for 12 and 410 guage.

http://www.winchester.com/Products/shotshell-ammunition/super-x/buckshot/Pages/XB413.aspx

http://www.winchester.com/Products/shotshell-ammunition/super-x/buckshot/Pages/SB1200LR.aspx

If you'll read back, you'll see that several people, myself included, posted info showing that the same size shot out of different gauge shotguns vary so little as to not even be mentionable, as your own research has shown

A 000 lead ball, being between .34-.36 caliber moving at roughly 1150 FPS, typical for a standard length shotgun barrel will penetrate approximately 4.5" of living soft tissue. A .410 slug, being .40 cal weighing 96 grains, moving at about 1800fps will penetrate roughly 7.5" of living soft tissue.

The recommended minimum penetration for a self defense load is 12"
So I don't think I am "way off" in terms of my penetration numbers.

Does this mean that buckshot is an ineffective HD tool? Certainly not.

I wasn't saying that, merely that in your comparison of adding 5 buckshot together versus 1 230grain .45 round, there is no comparison.

I think you'd find the one shot stop ratio of the 1851 to be modest at best, and certainly "ineffective" compared to a modern SD chambering.

[Ol` Joe]

I think you'd find the one shot stop ratio of the 1851 to be modest at best, and certainly "ineffective" compared to a modern SD chambering.

I sort of agree and think if one checks he`ll find the .36 cal 1851 was carried more by officers as last ditch weapons, but found lacking by the calvery who had a hard time shooting rifles from horse back and preferred to shoot a pistol as they operated at pike range or closer. The Walker Colt (a .454 140gr ball @ 1000 fps) was developed for them, and they found could drop men and horses reliably at more then saber distance with it.
Personally I wouldn`t stick around to be shot by any of the cartridges mentioned if given a choice.........

[miforest]

you are looking at JHP penetration. for non expanding projectoiles like FMJ and round ball, penetration is much greater. I have hunted deer for 36 seasons in southern michigan and indiana, with reletives. helped field dress at least 70. a couple of dozen shot with 00 or 000B . 000B usualy exits.

see page 8 0f 58 on this RCMP test:

http://www.css.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/cprc/tr/tr-1998-03.pdf

af for the 1851 colt navy having poor effectiveness, they were used by guys like wild bill hickcok well after cartridge revolvers were available .

a single hit with a 000B is not as good as a 45 ACP, but 3-5 hits would certianly be a llot better than a single hit with a 45 acp . cheers.

[knu2xs]

Paul, thanks for starting this thread, it covers a lot of things that I had thought about in the past when I had a Taurus Judge (3" / 3").

I found it to be very ineffective, even at 20' using either 000 or #4's, on Raccoons, 'Possums & the like. Even though I have a small pistol range out in the back yard I never got around to figuring out how the different loads patterened out of such a short, lightly rifled barrel. It didn't matter, after I seen, or should I say experienced, it's limitations in the role I bought it for, destructive animal control, I sold it.

Thanks again!!

[PaulB84]

Paul, thanks for starting this thread, it covers a lot of things that I had thought about in the past when I had a Taurus Judge (3" / 3").

I found it to be very ineffective, even at 20' using either 000 or #4's, on Raccoons, 'Possums & the like. Even though I have a small pistol range out in the back yard I never got around to figuring out how the different loads patterened out of such a short, lightly rifled barrel. It didn't matter, after I seen, or should I say experienced, it's limitations in the role I bought it for, destructive animal control, I sold it.

Thanks again!!

no problem! but I'm still waiting for SSE's range report on 5 ball 000 .410 patterns out of a shotgun length barrel....hop to it man inquiring minds want to know! :)