HB 4283 use of rifle in shotgun zone

[LibertyComrade]

If you set out to kill a person whether in SD or otherwise that is premeditated, you have the right idea just phrasing it wrong.

Exactly, it's the intent. Justified self-defense only requires you to stop the threat, not kill your attacker.

For example if you were a martial artist and you disabled a mugger that attacked you with a grapple and then someone saw you snap their neck intentionally anyway, that's murder and not self-defense. It's just harder to prove that with a shooting usually.

If a man breaks into your house and you shoot him and he dies as a result of his wounds, that's still self-defense. But if you've shot the guy and he's laying on the floor bleeding to death and is clearly no longer a threat and you walk over and put a round in his head while he's on the ground, that's not self-defense.

[45/70fan]

If you post on a forum that your intent is to kill someone if you have to shoot them in self defense that constitutes intent because you intended to kill and not just stop the threat.

The difference is choosing between remaining a free person vs. doing life for premeditated murder/homicide.

[Quaamik]

It's "Et up with the Yankee Dumbass". Light caliber pistol ammo like the.380 and .38s are not what I'd call acceptable deer rounds. I wouldn't use either. If folks go into the field with them, there's going to be wounded deer. I wish they'd leave the regulations to people with a clue rather than politicians.

Pete

Yeah, that would be nice. Problem is that everyone seems to think their opinions on the subject, or old stories from deer camp, or what they know as "common knowledge" should be given the same weight as sceintific measurable data.

Just because you wouldn't go into the field with a .38 for deer, doesn't mean its an unnacceptable choice. The reality is that even a .380 produces more energy, deeper penetration and (provided the right bullet it chosen) potentially more damage than some broad head hunting arrows. Knowledge of your weapon, shot placement and the willingness to do what will be needed to recover game is the determining factor on wounded vs recovered deer - not the power of the cartridge.

Personally, I think the bill is fataly flawed as written. I agree with the DNR - it would be a nightmare to enforce. Say a game warden comes across a person carrying a revolver and a rifle, both in .357 mag. The revolver is loaded with .357 mag ammo, the rifle is unloaded, and he has loose .357 mag ammo and loose .38 special +P ammo in his pocket. Did he break the law? What if they find him with a rifle in .357 mag that's loaded, should they force him to unload it (or unload it themselves) and check each round to verify its a .357 and not a .38? What if he has a rifle in .357 mag, loaded with .357 mag, and in the loose shells he has in his pocket he has one .38?

The diameter restrictions in the current law are enough of a PIA. Adding in minimum and maximum cartridge lengths would make field decisions on legal / illegal more difficult and would not endear the officers to hunters.

[Tallbear]

House Standing Committee Meeting

Tourism, Rep. Peter Pettalia, Chair

DATE: Thursday, May 09, 2013

TIME: 9:00 AM

PLACE: Room 327, House Office Building, Lansing, MI

AGENDA:
HB 4283 (Rep. Lori) Natural resources; hunting; use of certain firearms during firearm deer season; allow.

HB 4284 (Rep. Johnson) Highways; local; off-road vehicle shoulder access on state trunk line highways; allow under certain circumstances.

HB 4299 (Rep. Bumstead) Natural resources; other; counties eligible to authorize off-road vehicles on road shoulders; extend to entire state and eliminate sunset.

Presentations given by:
Henry Ford Museum- Patricia E. Mooradian, President & Secretary, and George Moroz, Special Assistant to the President
Department of Natural Resources-Michigan Historical Center-Sandra Clark, Director

[45/70fan]

Where did this go, down the tubes again: AGENDA:
HB 4283 (Rep. Lori) Natural resources; hunting; use of certain firearms during firearm deer season; allow.

[Tallbear]

HB 4283 of 2013
Natural resources; hunting; use of certain firearms during firearm deer season; allow. Amends sec. 43526 of 1994 PA 451 (MCL 324.43526).
Last Action: 5/9/2013 referred to second reading

[45/70fan]

House Bill No. 4283, entitled

A bill to amend 1994 PA 451, entitled “Natural resources and environmental protection act,” by amending section 43526 (MCL 324.43526), as amended by 1996 PA 585.
Without amendment and with the recommendation that the bill pass.
The bill was referred to the order of Second Reading of Bills.

Favorable Roll Call

To Report Out:
Yeas: Reps. Pettalia, Goike, Crawford, Genetski, Rendon, Pagel, Kosowski and Brunner
Nays: None
The Committee on Tourism, by Rep. Pettalia, Chair, reported

[sasquatchpa]

Personally, I think the bill is fataly flawed as written. I agree with the DNR - it would be a nightmare to enforce. Say a game warden comes across a person carrying a revolver and a rifle, both in .357 mag. The revolver is loaded with .357 mag ammo, the rifle is unloaded, and he has loose .357 mag ammo and loose .38 special +P ammo in his pocket. Did he break the law? What if they find him with a rifle in .357 mag that's loaded, should they force him to unload it (or unload it themselves) and check each round to verify its a .357 and not a .38? What if he has a rifle in .357 mag, loaded with .357 mag, and in the loose shells he has in his pocket he has one .38?

The diameter restrictions in the current law are enough of a PIA. Adding in minimum and maximum cartridge lengths would make field decisions on legal / illegal more difficult and would not endear the officers to hunters.

Iowa and Indiana, have pistol caliber.
Why can their DNR cope?
Is the Michigan DNR flawed?
Did someone drink the DNR Kool-aid?
Are hunters guilty until proven innocent?

[Quaamik]

Iowa and Indiana, have pistol caliber.
Why can their DNR cope?
Is the Michigan DNR flawed?
Did someone drink the DNR Kool-aid?
Are hunters guilty until proven innocent?

In Indiana, handgun cartridges are limited the same as rifle cartridges. So in the examples I listed, the hunter would be illegal - no question.

Here in Michigan cartridges with cases shorter than 1.16 inches are legal in handguns. Personally, I'd fight tooth and nail NOT to change that. I enjoy carrying a .45 Auto while hunting and have carried a 9mm. I'm not willing to give that up so someone can hunt deer with their favorite lever action.

Iowa lists the specific cartridges that are allowed in handguns and only lists center fire cartridges .24 caliber and larger for rifles. That is much easier to enforce, and they have the intelligence to list cartridges such as .38 super, 10 mm and .45 ACP. Some cartridges that are very acceptable choices are not listed, but they are uncommon ones. Others that are not listed (9mm, .40 S&W) are common, but that is their fight to get them accepted - not mine. The rifle vs pistol issue with .357 mag / .38 special still exists, but at the opposite side . .38 special is legal in the rifle and illegal in the pistol. I'm sure part of the reason its easier to deal with is that if the person has both pistol and rifle on them, the pistol is more likely loaded and has the greater restriction as to what cartridges it can use.

[tgafish]

Nice thing about Indiana is that it does not have the straight wall restriction or length max on handguns. Opens a whole world of contender barrels