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  1. #1
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    When is a Gun Considered "Loaded"?

    Arizona Court Rules Guns are Loaded, Even When Empty…

    Girls Just Wanna Have guns
    August 18th. 2017

    Sorry, but you heard that one right. In Arizona, a panel of three judges decided the legal definition of a ‘loaded’ gun. They concluded a gun can be loaded even without a live round in the chamber.

    The AZ Court of Appeals came to this conclusion while upholding the conviction of Bo Lucas Johnson. He argued that while he had a firearm on school grounds, the legality of his possession ‘could not be determined due to the state’s vague definition of a “loaded” firearm,’ reports Guns America.

    Arizona law states that a person commits a “misconduct involving weapons” by knowingly possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds. But the law makes an exception if the firearm is not “loaded” and “is carried within a means of transportation under the control of an adult.”

    Johnson argued that since the law does not specify whether a “loaded” handgun must have a round in the chamber, his misconduct involving weapons charge should be dropped. Johnson attorney’s cited Utah’s definition of “loaded,” which reads, in part, “when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.” The California legislature has also spelled out their definition of a “loaded” firearm to include any firearm that has live ammunition in the magazine.

    Johnson’s side argued that because Arizona law does not contain a similarly explicit definition, the current statue is unconstitutionally vague.

    Appeals Court Judge Philip Espinosa disagreed. He ruled in the unanimous majority opinion that even though other states have chosen to define the term “loaded,” the Arizona legislature did not, which calls for the use of the “common sense” definition of “containing ammunition.” The term, therefore, is not unconstitutionally vague.

  2. #2
    In Memoriam mikeb32's Avatar
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    All Guns are Loaded!!
    "Tell Me No Lies, I'll ask you No Questions"

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    Unless otherwise noted, my posts represent my personal opinion, and are not an official position, opinion, or endorsement by MGO or the MGO BOD.

  3. #3
    Legal Forum Contributor / Super Moderator Shyster's Avatar
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    Yawn. Same definition here.
    DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed in my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions, views, or official policies of Michigan Gun Owners. Any opinion I express on an issue should not be considered legal advice.

    For those interested in establishing an NFA or Gun Trust click here. For my contact information click here. Follow me on Twitter @makowskilegal or my website www.makowskilegal.com

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb32 View Post
    All Guns are Loaded!!


    Besides, there are guns that fire from an open bolt. Therefore, if the magazine in that type of gun is loaded, the gun is loaded.

    Guns That Fire From An Open Bolt


    Alpha GPI
    APS underwater rifle
    AA-12 Shotgun
    Browning Automatic Rifle
    Bren light machine gun
    Carl Gustav M/45
    CETME Ameli
    Degtyaryov machine gun
    F1 submachine gun
    FN MAG and variants (including the M240)
    FN Minimi and variants (including the M249)
    Halcón M-1943
    Intratec KG-9
    Jatimatic
    Kk 62
    Lanchester submachine gun
    Lewis gun
    LWRCI M6A4 Squad automatic weapon
    M3
    M60
    M231 FPW
    MAC-10 and variants (including the MAC-11)
    MAC-58
    MAT 49
    MG34
    MG42
    Mk-19
    MP18
    Minebea PM-9
    MP40
    Nikonov machine gun
    Owen Gun
    PK machine gun
    PM-63 RAK
    PPS submachine gun
    PPSh-41
    PPS-43
    Ranger-34a
    Rheinmetall MG3
    RPD
    SG-43
    SIG MG710
    Sten submachine gun
    Sterling submachine gun
    Steyr Aug (LMG configuration)
    Stoner 63 (LMG configuration)
    Thompson submachine gun
    Type 100 submachine gun
    UKM-2000
    Ultimax 100
    Uzi
    Vigneron submachine gun
    MP3008

  5. #5
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    In NY it is load if there is ammo in the same luggage as the firearm.

  6. #6
    MGO Member Roundballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb32 View Post
    All Guns are Loaded!!
    Always!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shyster View Post
    Yawn. Same definition here.
    i.e. a total lack of a legal definition.

    I would go with: "If you can fire it without touching ammo or the "feeding device", just manipulating the firearm, then it is loaded"

    Although, not law, the DNR considers a muzzle loader that is un-primed the same as unloaded.


    Life Member, NRA, Lapeer County Sportsmen's Club Disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer. Opinions expressed are not representative of any organization to which I may belong, and are solely mine. Any natural person or legal entity reading this post accepts all responsibility for any actions undertaken by that person or entity, based upon what they perceived was contained in this post, and shall hold harmless this poster, his antecedents, and descendants, in perpetuity.

  7. #7
    Legal Forum Contributor / Super Moderator Shyster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roundballer View Post
    Always!


    i.e. a total lack of a legal definition.

    I would go with: "If you can fire it without touching ammo or the "feeding device", just manipulating the firearm, then it is loaded"

    Although, not law, the DNR considers a muzzle loader that is un-primed the same as unloaded.
    Untrue. I'm too tired to supply the cite but the statute says the gun must be unloaded in both chamber and magazine.
    DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed in my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions, views, or official policies of Michigan Gun Owners. Any opinion I express on an issue should not be considered legal advice.

    For those interested in establishing an NFA or Gun Trust click here. For my contact information click here. Follow me on Twitter @makowskilegal or my website www.makowskilegal.com

  8. #8
    How about a clear & concise definition as what is considered unloaded in MI.?
    Where it's applicable (state land, public roads).
    This brings confusion to me!

  9. #9
    MGO Member Roundballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyster View Post
    Untrue. I'm too tired to supply the cite but the statute says the gun must be unloaded in both chamber and magazine.
    You don't have to look anything up. I know where it is:

    Hunting law, definition of "unloaded" --> MCL 324-40111 (8c)
    (c) "Unloaded" means that the firearm does not have ammunition in the barrel, chamber, cylinder, clip, or magazine when the barrel, chamber, cylinder, clip, or magazine is part of or attached to the firearm.
    Yet, on their web site. --> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7...1579--,00.html

    The last line in "exceptions":
    A percussion cap muzzleloading longarm is considered unloaded if the percussion cap is removed. A flintlock muzzleloading longarm is considered unloaded if the cock is left down and the pan is open. Black powder handguns must be transported as stated above. A muzzleloading firearm that has an electric ignition system is considered unloaded if the battery is removed.
    This is just another reason you don't depend on "LEOs" for information about the law.

    I did say "not law".


    Life Member, NRA, Lapeer County Sportsmen's Club Disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer. Opinions expressed are not representative of any organization to which I may belong, and are solely mine. Any natural person or legal entity reading this post accepts all responsibility for any actions undertaken by that person or entity, based upon what they perceived was contained in this post, and shall hold harmless this poster, his antecedents, and descendants, in perpetuity.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    How about a clear & concise definition as what is considered unloaded in MI.?
    Where it's applicable (state land, public roads).
    This brings confusion to me!

    From MSP legal update:


    "Unloaded"
    means that the firearm does not have
    ammunition in the barrel, chamber, cylinder, clip, or magazine when the barrel, chamber, cylinder, clip, or magazine is part of or attached to the firearm.
    MCL 324.40111(7)(b)

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