handgun grip styles

[AleksanderSuave]

I took some time off from shooting pistols, not intentionally, but since I Built my AR15, I was all about rifles and I havent shot pistols for a good 6 months now. so I recently got a new pistol and wandering around reading too much, have been on the line, decided I should be checking out research on proper "grips"..

So I decided I'd try the "thumbs forward" grip recommended by all superior youtubers now, over my typical "thumb over thumb".

result being...holy crap I suck..

either its the 6 months I took off, or the fact that I hit the gym way too hard a few days ago, or this new grip..but my shot groups were overall sloppy. My 1911 was decent, but beyond that, most of my shot placement sucked..

Either I need to abandon this new grip style, or I need to take some more training. Maybe both.

any thoughts?

[DrScaryGuy]

At YSINTG, Trek held his gun upside down and pulled the trigger with his pinkie fingers. while standing on one foot.
It was goofy, but also a very good demonstration that how you hold the gun and how you pull the trigger isn't as important as just plain holding the gun on target and steady while pulling the trigger.

[Cocowheats]

It's all about sights and triggers at the end of the day. How we hold the gun, how we stand, etc., is just bonuses that help with recoil, help track sights faster, etc.

Align your sights. Focus on keeping the sights aligned perfectly. Pull the trigger as SLOW as you can. The gun will go off when it's good and ready; let it just recoil in your hand. You should be left looking at the hole you just made. Seriously, take all week to pull the trigger!

What this does is take you anticipating the shot out of the equation. It also tries to take you jerking the trigger out of the equation. What's left is sight alignment; so if you do that correct, your groupings should be improved. The more you do what I described above, the faster you'll be able to do it.

[Cocowheats]

At YSINTG, Trek held his gun upside down and pulled the trigger with his pinkie fingers. while standing on one foot.
It was goofy, but also a very good demonstration that how you hold the gun and how you pull the trigger isn't as important as just plain holding the gun on target and steady while pulling the trigger.

I practice shooting upside down two and one handed commonly. It's a good illustration of what we both just said!

[AleksanderSuave]

At YSINTG, Trek held his gun upside down and pulled the trigger with his pinkie fingers. while standing on one foot.
It was goofy, but also a very good demonstration that how you hold the gun and how you pull the trigger isn't as important as just plain holding the gun on target and steady while pulling the trigger.

Sounds like I suck, it's not the grip, and I need to take the class

[Cocowheats]

Sounds like I suck, it's not the grip, and I need to take the class

I'm not going to say to not take the class, it's really a great class with a great instructor and I really recommend their classes. That being said, there is pretty much only three things you could be doing wrong.
1. Not aligning the sights proper.
2. Not keeping the sights aligned as you work your way through the trigger pull.
3. Any combination of 1 &2.

I'll venture to guess you know how to align the sights. If that's true, then odds are, 2 is your issue.

Seriously, try what I said in my other post. Focus on sight alignment and pull the trigger as slow as you can. The gun will go off when it's good and ready; it should slightly surprise you when it just suddenly recoils in your hands.

There are other factors, but for the most part, 1-3 are bout all there is to do wrong in regards to hitting where we aim.

Dry fire practice can help quite a bit for cheap. The classic balancing a penny or spent casing on your front sight while dry firing the gun(EMPTY gun). If you drop the object off the sight, you jerked the gun/pulled the shot. Helps to have somebody put the casing/penny on the front sight for you while you stand in your shooting position.

[JimSig]

The following is based on my own observation and opinion.. It might be worth something and it might not. I am not a trainer and I do not consider myself an expert. I just shoot for fun and enjoy a good day at the range. The defensive skills I gain is a bonus...End of disclaimer..

The way someone grips the gun has an effect (in the initial stages of learning and gaining marksmanship skills) on how the hand reacts due to the trigger finger (index finger in 99.999 % of the time unless it is cut and one is using a middle finger).. It is surprisingly how a simple exercise of decoupling the movement of the index finger from what the rest of the muscle group in one's hand want to do goes a long way on the accuracy meter. People call this trigger control. What it is basically is to learn how to move your index finger (in a rearward motion to break the trigger) while at the same time isolating the un-needed movements of one's hand. At the begining of learning this technique, the grip is very important in that the grip that helps or aids in minimizing the hand movement leads to better accuracy shots mainly because it heps in the muscle decoupling technique of the index finger from the rest of the hand muscles. As the shooter understands this fundamental and applies it the grip effect diminishes in that regard if the shooter is firing slowly and have time to recoup after the recoil and muzzle flip like in a slow firing procedure at the range. That's why seasoned shooters can focus on that trigger discipline fundamental and shoot with any grip or gun upside down, etc..

The above (i.e. grip technique) is not relevant for slow firing as long as you are securing the gun agains recoil forces after one masters the decoupling technique of the index finger from the rest of the palm and hand. However, when one starts learning how to control the handgun during fast shooting with critical timing to control muzzle flip and get that front sight back on target as fast as possible, and manage the recoil forces effectively then the grip comes back into the picture with being the major parameter to control recoil and muzzle rise for faster follow up shots "on target"

My preference is the two thumbs forward. That being said alot of shooters miss the most needed parameter in this equation. it is not enough to have the two thumbs forward, one has to fully understand the intention of such grip, and apply it accordingly.. Based on the size of one's hand, their thumbs length and the relative ratio of their finger size relative to the palm size, the shooter has to experiment with stabilizing techniques that most of us generally refer to as two thumbs forward. For example, I have large palms, medium fingers and short thumbs.. My two thumbs forward grip translates to: weak thum forward at zero degree, but my strong hand thumb is forward but at a 15 degree cant upward.. The intent is to apply both horizontal (side to side ) pressure between the two palms and for-aft pressure to fully equalize the grip during recoil management. Most shooter pay attention to the for-aft pressure but very very rare that they apply horizontal pressure..

Here is the order of priority of techniques that one must master in my opinion:

1. learn how to decouple index finger muscles from the rest of the hand - tool dry fire and observe you hand movement until you learn where to rest your index finger on the trigger (tip of finger pad, middle of finger pad or knuckle joint).. once you find the sweet spot, the front post must remain on target during the dry fire exercise.

2. Trigger kinematics and control: lear how your handgun trigger breaks, identify and feel the multiple stages: pretravel, the rigid wall, the trigger break, is there creep, sponginess or just a clean crisp break, the after travel.. Master all the stages that apply to your handgun. That is where expensive competition handguns come in advatage by minimizing or eliminating pretravel and after travel, and proving a light crisp break.. But learn with your gun, and if you learn on a glock trigger then you can shoot any other gun with more ease.

3. combine what you learned in 1 and 2 to master slow firing drills and get sight picture mastered

up till this stage the grip plays a minimal role as long as you are using a safe grip to control the gun (2 thumbs forward or on top of each other doesnot matter)

4. Once you are ready to build some speed in your shooting experiment with the grip that helps you stabilizing the gun.. use the gun geometry to your advantage, highgrip as much as possible before the slide starts chopping you hand. This is to minimize the turning moment (recoil force x bore distance to the web of your hand). Use the wek hand effectively to apply passive force (mostly at 45 degrees) at the upper two thirds of the gri p to stabilize that over turning moment more effectively. While doing that you have to apply both horizontal and for aft pressure to maximize the contribution of your weak hand in stablizing the gun.. Remember your strong hand is wrapped around the grip while your weak hand is half wraped, so you need more work in the form of sidesway and for aft pressure to do the work.. Your weak hand must do more work than your strong hand because your strong hand is mainly to hold the gun and for your index finger to activate the trigger while decoupled from the affecting your right hand.

5. practice + practice + practice and have fun and be safe

I did not intend to write a lengthy reply but I am half asleep and my thoughts were flowing and I felt to share my experience.. I just realized that with a lengthy reply I might be incoherent or I might have tons of spelling and grammatical mistakes.. To the grammar police pls excuse my mishaps.. I hope I didn't bore anyone.

[AleksanderSuave]

Coco and Jim.

I appreciate the responses. definitely both very helpful.

I think I'll hit the range a few more times, to work out these kinks. I think the issue of sight alignment was there "somewhat". I shot 3 different guns with 3 different sight heights/styles, so each time involved readjusting to the sights when I switched guns.

After the first shot with the thumbs forward grip, I would be reminded that the grip is less about the thumbs "Forward" and more about the different application of pressure, the "crushing" effect provided by the left hand, as opposed to the clamping style of the thumb over thumb grip.

Definitely going to incorporate going slower. One thing that threw me off is the grips on all 3 guns very vastly different. My p239 has sig standard slim polymers. My p226 Legion has Hogue G10s, and my 1911 has more aggressively textured wood grips. I think the hogue has the best fit of the 3 in my hand.

[JimSig]

Do not do my mistake, when I started shooting in 2009 I was (and still is) a handgun junky.. I was buying handguns like crazygreek trying to make up for all the time for starting late in the game of shooting.. I used to take a bunch of handguns to the range or club and shoot them all.. I didn't and still do not have the discipline to stick to one gun.. But I have observed other shooters who excelled in the game faster than me were dedicated to one handgun. i would suggest to focus on your P226 for the coming range trips until you are satisfied, then you can spread what you learned and modify accordingly to the other handguns.. Just my opinion, and I know it is hard for us (handgun enthusiasts) to stick to one gun, but think of it as a temporary phase.

[AleksanderSuave]

Do not do my mistake, when I started shooting in 2009 I was (and still is) a handgun junky.. I was buying handguns like crazygreek trying to make up for all the time for starting late in the game of shooting.. I used to take a bunch of handguns to the range or club and shoot them all.. I didn't and still do not have the discipline to stick to one gun.. But I have observed other shooters who excelled in the game faster than me were dedicated to one handgun. i would suggest to focus on your P226 for the coming range trips until you are satisfied, then you can spread what you learned and modify accordingly to the other handguns.. Just my opinion, and I know it is hard for us (handgun enthusiasts) to stick to one gun, but think of it as a temporary phase.

It’s definitely hard and your logic is dead on. My first gun was a plain Jane CPO p226, Which I did most of my shooting with for years before I ever got another handgun.