PDA

View Full Version : Costco bans CCW



G22
12-17-2004, 09:35 AM
From: http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=320678&perpage=25&pagen umber=1


I am sickened to learn that COSTCO is banning lawful citizens from carrying concealed handguns in your stores. The people who have taken the time to participate in the training that is required for a concealed handgun license and then endure the exhaustive background checks and criminal history checks that are required to obtain a concealed handgun license are the most upstanding and reliable citizens in the state.

COSTCO, by prohibiting the carry of a lawfully licensed concealed handgun, is doing a disservice to itself and its customers. Further, by banning the lawful carry of concealed handguns, you are taking responsibility for the personal safety of ALL customers both in your store and in your parking areas. COSTCO, through its policies, is preventing holders of concealed handgun licenses from protecting themselves while on COSTCO property from thugs and criminals who, by definition will not obey laws or corporate policies. This policy is negligent, in effect creating a very dangerous environment that I find totally unacceptable. The courts may eventually find your company and it's management liable in the event of injury to your patrons due to this dangerous and discriminatory policy.

The Sheriff, local and State Police, and the FBI trust me with a gun but Costco does not.

I will not shop at a COSTCO in the future as long as your corporation and stores ban the legal carry of concealed firearms IN ANY OF THEIR STORES! I will also demand a rull refund for membership dues which were paid in full.

I will forward this email to all the people on my email list, post it on every internet forum, and let them decide if they will spend their hard earned dollars at a company that does not respect the second amendment of the constitution nor the state's laws regarding the legal carry of concealed handguns.

Sincerely,

COSTCO says that they want to hear from us. Let's hammer them.
Member Services:
800-774-2678

www.costco.com/CustomerService/EmailUs.aspx

Don't let them get away with this.

I got the authors permission to use his e-mail and added to a few areas.

Freetime
12-17-2004, 10:20 AM
I just sent my own e-mail if I receive a response I will post it.
Larry

Fiddler
12-17-2004, 11:46 AM
Thanks for posting, Kevin. I was just about to join the brand new Costco in Green Oak Township, but I wont waste my time or money. I already have a membership at Sam's Club. Costco would have been a lot closer and more convenient, but not worth my personal safety or peace of mind. I will be sending them an email to that effect to, and I'll be sure to let them know that Sam's Club will continue to get my money.

gjgalligan
12-17-2004, 02:03 PM
Here is my letter to them:

I am due to renew my membership but since it appears that I am not welcome in your stores since I carry a firearm I will just pass.

Sam's Club is just down the street.

Wesley w/Glock
12-17-2004, 02:17 PM
I heard on the radio a couple of months ago that both Costco and Sam's Club were doing presidential campaign contributions commensurate with revenue. Costco was contributing to the Kerry campaign and Sam's Club was contributing to the Bush campaign.

It was a local radio talk show and it was the show host who was telling this. That is the only confirmation I have on the matter.

G22
12-17-2004, 02:25 PM
You are absolutely right Wes, Costco donates to the Dem's & Sams Club donates to Repub's.

If I can find a link, I will post it.

(edit to add) Even if Costco did allow CCW, I wouldn't give them my money to contribute to a party I despise.

Jim Simmons
12-17-2004, 02:34 PM
Until I see a sign in my local Costco is participating in this ban, I continue doing business as usual.

I'm not entirely certain they have the right to change the rules on folks mid-membership.

G22
12-17-2004, 02:39 PM
A reply from Costco:

Dear SC-TEXAS,

Thank you for your email to Costco Wholesale.

In reference to your inquiry on our policy disallowing the carrying of
firearms in our warehouse stores.
Costco does not believe that it is necessary for firearms to be brought
into its warehouse stores, except in the case of authorized law
enforcement officers. For the protection of all our members and
employees, we feel this is a reasonable and prudent precaution to ensure
a pleasant shopping experience and safe workplace. Our policy is meant
to protect our members and employees in all warehouses around the world.
This is not a new policy and we do not customize the policy for each
individual city/county/state/country where we do business.
Bringing a firearm into our warehouse does not enhance the shopping
experience. We are sorry the message you are hearing is that "we don't
want you." It is the firearms that we exclude in the warehouses, not the
carriers.


Sincerely,

Elizabeth H.
Member Service Phone Agent
ext.1716
customerservice@costco.com

G22
12-17-2004, 02:40 PM
If you want your hard earned money going to support the Democratic party then by all means go right ahead. :?

Jim Simmons
12-17-2004, 02:44 PM
When I buy a product or service, I buy it from the place that gives me the best value for my money. But once I've bought it, then it's no longer my money, it's their money. And they have the right to do with it what they will.

Do you know how broke I'd be if clients and lawyers who don't agree with me on gun issues took their business elsewhere?

G22
12-17-2004, 02:49 PM
And they have the right to do with it what they will.

They most certainly do.

However, I have the right to spend my money in places that don't donate huge sums of money to a political party that I don't agree with in any way shape or form.

If you were an anti-gun lawyer, you would not see one red cent of my money, nor would I refer any potential clients to you.

This is one issue I personally will not comprimise on, sorry.
Your money is supporting Democrats either way you look at it.

Wesley w/Glock
12-17-2004, 02:56 PM
Until I see a sign in my local Costco is participating in this ban, I continue doing business as usual.
Amen! I told them something just like that except that I don't have a Costco near me and I shop weekly at Sam's Club. In fact, I came right out and told them that until I see a sign or until they properly bann me specifically, I will lawfully carry my concealed pistol there if at some point if it suits my purpose to shop there.

I also challenged them to produce any evidence that such a policy benefits customers in any way whatsoever asking them to dispense with common suppositions.

G22
12-17-2004, 03:02 PM
I give up...spend your money at Democraticunderground.com for all i care.

garyjt
12-18-2004, 07:58 AM
Why give your money to antigunner? there are other stores who believe in the 2nd ammendment. Too bad Sam Walton and SEbastian Kresge are not still around, they had no problem with guns.

WhoIsJohnGalt
12-18-2004, 08:36 AM
"Too bad Sam Walton and SEbastian Kresge are not still around, they had no problem with guns."

Sam Walton is still around- WalMart.

gjgalligan
12-18-2004, 11:11 AM
"Sam Walton is still around- WalMart."

I think Sam is gone, his kids own/run Walmart now.

Fiddler
12-18-2004, 11:31 AM
Sam died in 1992, and his kids run Wal-Mart and Sam's Club.

WhoIsJohnGalt
12-18-2004, 01:17 PM
"Too bad Sam Walton and SEbastian Kresge are not still around, they had no problem with guns."

Sam Walton is still around- WalMart.
************************************************** ***********
I know Sam, the man, is gone. I should have qualified that statement by saying his "legacy" is still around. :?

Maybe Costco's employees should file a "grievance" with their union?
Isn't that what unions are for?......to stand up for the rights of the working man? :sex:

Fiddler
12-18-2004, 01:31 PM
I knew what you meant. I just wanted to clarify the point for those who weren't sure.

As for unions, I think you said it best.

Slatherd
12-18-2004, 09:20 PM
If Sams club was so great, then why did Walmart have no ccw signs up a few years back?

They are just like the rest. They ban guns and when it begins to effect sales, they drop it.

Same as double action.

Kouger
12-18-2004, 09:22 PM
wally world took the signs down in a matter of a couple of weeks after all of us went on a letter writing campaign and let our voices be heard.

it is hardly the same as double action......

lets compare apple to apples and grapes to grapes

Jerry
12-18-2004, 09:58 PM
Message sent.....doubt that it will do any good but maybe if there is enough response and pressure the company will do what is right....... :!:

Kouger
12-18-2004, 10:00 PM
hope your right. but they will still donate to the dems and against our rights int he end

just a thought.

I also sent a letter. 2 businesses cancled total of 9 cards shredded

Slatherd
12-18-2004, 10:04 PM
Kouger it's totally the same thing.

Double action saw prices falling over time. So, they reversed their policy. Walmart did the same. they looked at their potentian dollar loss and decided it was a smart move to not alienate us as customers.

None of these companies reallly care about guns or gun rights. Sure some small ones do. but the ultrabig crazy stores like walmart care about one thing. MONEY.

If they could make more money banning all guns.. They would do it.

Kouger
12-18-2004, 10:11 PM
i see it differently........but.thats ok..

double actions should have never had a policy. period.they give ccw classes and sell loads of guns and stuff..they know it hurt the bottom line and a shop that size needs a small amount of people to help raise that bottom line

wally world.had a policy in effect less than 45 days..after recieving letters about yes. the bottom line and how many of the people that shop there would stop they thought best to reverse that policy.....

wally world dont have to allow ccw and the bottom line to the stores would be less than 5%...at best....put a couple more items on sale.cater to other groups and rebound that 5% even more


( note 5% is just a number i tossed out there.i cant see them losing more than that in my opinion.but the point being.they can do other things in marketing to raise more than that 5%)

garyjt
12-19-2004, 10:44 AM
iwally world.had a policy in effect less than 45 days..after recieving letters about yes. the bottom line and how many of the people that shop there would stop they thought best to reverse that policy.....


I am sure that Walmart looked at what happened to Kmart after Kmart alienated gun owners, and Walmart is smart enough to know that over half of american homes have guns - so why alienate half of american households? "It has nothing to do with business". Too bad ole Sam Walton is dead though, he liked guns( and too bad Sebastian Kresge is also dead, Walt Disney, etc) . Sebastian Kresge even sold handguns at Kmart.

WhoIsJohnGalt
12-19-2004, 03:27 PM
Yep...the "old timers" like Sam, Kresge, etc, seemed to be men of more principal than the new breed of pragmatic C.E.O.'s today, in general anyway.

alex-vitek
12-19-2004, 06:50 PM
Sebastian Kresge even sold handguns at Kmart.

I have read that they still sell handguns at the K-Mart stores in Alaska.

gmitchell
12-20-2004, 10:52 AM
I stopped shopping at Costco as soon as I heard the big cheese (I think the CEO but not sure) was pouring tons of money to get Kerry elected.
I will go to Wall-Mart if I want to shop at a discount store, I heard they donate mostly to republicans.

Jerry
12-20-2004, 05:37 PM
This is the response from Costco and it is the same as above.....

----- Original Message -----
From: <customerservice@costco.com>
To: <jerryroll@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 4:21 PM
Subject: RE: Other [APY2004121900000386]


> To reference this e-mail in the future, please make note of the
> tracking number listed in the subject heading. This message
> may be monitored for quality assurance.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Dear Jerry,
>
> Thank you for your email to Costco Wholesale.
>
> In reference to your inquiry on our policy disallowing the carrying of
> firearms in our warehouse stores.
> Costco does not believe that it is necessary for firearms to be brought
> into its warehouse stores, except in the case of authorized law
> enforcement officers. For the protection of all our members and
> employees, we feel this is a reasonable and prudent precaution to ensure
> a pleasant shopping experience and safe workplace. Our policy is meant
> to protect our members and employees in all warehouses around the world.
> This is not a new policy and we do not customize the policy for each
> individual city/county/state/country where we do business.
> Bringing a firearm into our warehouse does not enhance the shopping
> experience. We are sorry the message you are hearing is that "we don't
> want you." It is the firearms that we exclude in the warehouses, not the
> carriers.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Taylor S.
> customerservice@costco.com


I sent this response but I know it will fall on deaf ears...... :?


Well Taylor S. I see your message is a canned message aye?

Well tell me this, whats gonna happen when a bad guy does not follow your rules and comes in shooting? Who is gonna stop him? Do you think the cops are going to be there in time to stop innocent bystanders (your customers) from getting shot or killed? Think it through....you have taken away the only line of defense when you stop law abiding folks from carrying in your store.

You seem to think that the bad guys are going to heed your no firearms sign? Time to think again......Good luck!

JR

Slatherd
12-20-2004, 08:17 PM
I'm getting kinda tired of this copy and paste method Costco has adpoted. They put some thought into one letter and now they send it to everyone, everytime.

I'm going to throw in another subject in my letter. I'm going to make a comment about this form letter they are sending out and let them know I think their level of individual customer service sucks.

G22
12-21-2004, 07:24 AM
Slatherd, let us know if you get something other than the canned responce.

I got the same e-mail as Jerry and everyone else. :evil:

ken loftus
12-21-2004, 06:29 PM
The list of the red and blue stores was published by the DemocraticUnderground.com (a.k.a. DU). Corporations such as Costco, Arbys, Hewlett-Packard and Toyota donated heavily to the democrats.

Most corporations gave some funds to both candidates.

Still, the bias of these companies will impact my future purchases.

RSF
12-25-2004, 12:51 AM
i was at the new costco today in brighton! no signs posted there?

J 92 Brigadier
12-25-2004, 11:36 AM
I never go into Costco without carrying. No sign posted in Shelby Township


( post edited by Kouger for advocating illegal activity and content)

Boona
01-01-2005, 08:15 PM
No sign in Madison Heights either

paddy
01-02-2005, 06:33 AM
No sign in Livonia either. Forgot to look the last few times.
Was there last Wednesday and searched for a sign. Couldn't find one and I sure didn't ask.

lawrov
01-02-2005, 10:49 AM
The question about posting - does there membership agreement prohibit carrying? Don't know, never read mine? Probably won't renew now.

One tack that has not been tried is to find a stockholder in Costco and sue Costco as this policy is clearly negatively effecting sales and therefore the value of your stock. Sue on behalf of all shareholders - very expensive suit but if enough of us chipped in for the costs this could be a novel way to use the court system to try to make company's like costco prove that there is some benefit in this ban other than making people like us not shop there. - Make them prove their bs statement that banning ccw holders improves safety in their stores...

Lawrov

LivoniaDan
01-02-2005, 12:53 PM
This is probably not going to be a very popular attitude, but here goes..

I am more in favor of just letting things like this drop.....Like a "don't ask, don't tell” policy...

As of now it is not posted..... If we continually and en-mass write letters, call to complain, etc, It could get posted. Corporations are more likely to play the numbers game.... If they ALLOW CCW, and someone innocent gets hurt by the CPL holder, the lawsuits are certain. If they dis-allow CCW, chances are there will be no lawsuits. The attitude then is that - “We do not allow guns on the property, the CPL holder was in violation of our policy. We even have it posed at the door”

If you feel strongly that they should allow you to CCW, then follow your letter with turning in your membership. Don’t just threaten.

Kouger
01-02-2005, 01:14 PM
Dan I agree

redhawk44
01-02-2005, 02:36 PM
When we finally got our right-to-carry law passed in Michigan, gun show promoters started posting signs to the effect that no concealed carry was allowed.

We had quite a fight about it on the MCRGO forum and I finally got banned.

But I am still nonrepentant about my position, which is I don't do business with anyone who will not allow me to carry a concealed handgun.

If it is OK to carry in the mall, it is OK at a gun show.

PERIOD !

Jim Simmons
01-02-2005, 03:08 PM
The question about posting - does there membership agreement prohibit carrying? Don't know, never read mine? Probably won't renew now.

One tack that has not been tried is to find a stockholder in Costco and sue Costco as this policy is clearly negatively effecting sales and therefore the value of your stock. Sue on behalf of all shareholders - very expensive suit but if enough of us chipped in for the costs this could be a novel way to use the court system to try to make company's like costco prove that there is some benefit in this ban other than making people like us not shop there. - Make them prove their bs statement that banning ccw holders improves safety in their stores...

Lawrov

Won't work. The business judgment rule lets them do this.

First, you'd have to show a clear link between the policy and reduced revenues. Considering the number of people they could find who would say they wouldn't shop there if CPLs were permitted, that won't work. Worse: All they have do is show how their premises liability insurance goes down by prohibiting concealed carry, and it's game over.

I think LivoniaDan has it just right: if it's not posted, none of us have actual knowledge of this alleged policy. All we know is that someone has claimed that Costco has this policy. I haven't seen the actual policy, and if it's not posted, it's just rumour.

And redhawk, I agree with you. Lakeside Mall has signs prohibiting concealed carry at every entrance, so I just don't shop at Lakeside. There's no prohibition at Macomb Mall; so that's where I shop.

Autumnlovr
01-02-2005, 03:42 PM
Lakeside Mall has signs prohibiting concealed carry at every entrance, so I just don't shop at Lakeside. There's no prohibition at Macomb Mall; so that's where I shop.

Jim, this may belong in the legal section but my question fits in with this thread. When I go to Lakeside, I always park outside of Sears and walk through there to the mall. There is no sign posted at Sears nor when going from Sears into the mall. If I had not seen this thread, I would not know that the mall is a CEZ....would I be in violation of the law? I have seen at Great Lakes Crossing, where the mall is posted and the one store I normally go through (Bass Pro) has a sign going from the store to the mall, so this is quite clear. But I think Lakeside is open to some misunderstandings......what's your (off the record) legal opinion?

Kouger
01-02-2005, 03:53 PM
lauren, ALL entrances must be posted.

it dont matter if it is from a store or an outside door. if the way you enter the mall is not posted you are NOT in violation of the ccw law.

at most they can do is ask you to leave IF they find out you have a gun, you must leave at that point. if you do not...then it turns into felony trespassing

this is soley MY OPINION and not intended to be any form of legal advice

Jim Simmons
01-02-2005, 07:49 PM
Kouger's pretty much on the money, with one exception . . . There ain't no such critter as felony trespassing. Not unless you damage something.

Kouger
01-02-2005, 11:32 PM
criminal trespassing?

M1911A1
01-03-2005, 12:07 AM
Misdemeanor trespass, IIRC.

Slatherd
01-03-2005, 01:36 AM
I wrote them. (SORRY FOR THE DELAY) now we wait for a response.

Here is my letter.

Costco,

I am very disheartened about your recent policy to restrict my legally concealed pistol in your stores. It appears you have left your management and employees in charge of my safety. But I ask you, did these employees have any formal training in protecting me? Do they play an active role in making sure I am safe? I doubt it. I and all other legally licensed concealed pistol carriers, DO take these classed and participate in use of force education. With your stores being private property, I agree with your right to create this policy. That is what makes this country great. The right to choose. Well, I am exercising my right to choose and will be going to your competition as long as you keep this policy in effect.

We all know that when good service is good, word spreads slow. In the retail world, when service is bad the statistic is that one customer will tell 10 other people. I have already started this. I know I am not the only one to dislike this policy. And I know 10 people that won't be shopping at your stores. I have seen automated responses from your department. Since I took the time to write this letter of concern, I would appreciate the same from you.

I urge you to change this policy and realize that trained concealed weapon holders ARE NOT CRIMINALS. And we do not enjoy being treated as such.

I ask one question is parting, do you think that criminals see your signs and return their guns to their cars? We do return to our cars. Unfortunately for Costco, we also drive to the competitor.

Wesley w/Glock
01-05-2005, 06:54 AM
..... If we continually and en-mass write letters, call to complain, etc, It could get posted.
I would like to see a posting. I believe that would hurt their sales and certainly Costco would wonder the same. But then again, I am not a Costco customer so that is easy for me to say. If it were Sam's Club I would experience hardship since I probably never see any one seven day period pass without patronizing them.


If you feel strongly that they should allow you to CCW, then follow your letter with turning in your membership. Don’t just threaten.
Agreed. That is why I wrote a second email to them. I got the same boilerplate email from them as everybody else. So, I wrote back saying that maybe they didn't understand. I specifically told them that I was going to continue shopping at Costco (and lawfully carry) and ignore their no carry policy until one or both of two things happen. Until I see lawful signs or until they specfically ban me by name. I included detailed contact information. However, in fact I don't shop at Costco and don't have a membership. There are no Costcos in my area and besides, Sam's Club prices are cheaper.

I can't believe, though, that CCWers as a group have enough financial clout and numbers to affect a retail operation like Costco. A car dealership where they rely on big ticket sales is one thing but a shopping outlet where there are thousands of under $200 sales daily is another.

paddy
01-05-2005, 11:36 AM
I agree with LivoniaDan. "don't ask, don't tell”

If they want to have a no gun policy to make them feel all warm and fuzzy or to impress their insurance co. but not post it, let them. If we constantly argue with companies that have these non-posted policies, we may give them the idea to post it. Now if they actually post the offending policy, then hammer them into submission. Until then, the last thing I'm going to do is ask them about the policy.

I happen to like Costco products better than Sam's


This is probably not going to be a very popular attitude, but here goes..

I am more in favor of just letting things like this drop.....Like a "don't ask, don't tell” policy...

As of now it is not posted..... If we continually and en-mass write letters, call to complain, etc, It could get posted. Corporations are more likely to play the numbers game.... If they ALLOW CCW, and someone innocent gets hurt by the CPL holder, the lawsuits are certain. If they dis-allow CCW, chances are there will be no lawsuits. The attitude then is that - “We do not allow guns on the property, the CPL holder was in violation of our policy. We even have it posed at the door”

If you feel strongly that they should allow you to CCW, then follow your letter with turning in your membership. Don’t just threaten.

Jim Simmons
01-05-2005, 01:43 PM
Wesley wrote:


I can't believe, though, that CCWers as a group have enough financial clout and numbers to affect a retail operation like Costco. A car dealership where they rely on big ticket sales is one thing but a shopping outlet where there are thousands of under $200 sales daily is another.

Back in the day, MCRGO took down the "No concealed pistols" policy at a Macomb County Ford Dealership. I don't remember which one, but their sign went up on a Tuesday. A member saw it, and called it into the office and spoke to our then Executive Director, Ross Dykman. It went up on the website that day. By close of business on Friday, they had received so many calls, so many e-mails, and business had dropped so much, that they rescinded the policy, called Dykman to say it had been rescinded, then begged him to have the members quit calling. It was funny . . . a day after the victory announcement, an additional notice went up asking the members to stop calling the dealership.

Good times, back in the day.

Slatherd
01-05-2005, 04:37 PM
I really dislike this passive way of dealing with these businesses. If they already have the policy, who cares if they post it. dont shop there. I'm not gonna hide under a rock just because it might push a company who already has an anti-gun stance into posting signs.

Do your part, if you know about it, dont shop there. its that easy.

This is no different about when a open carry comes into question. Many say, dont ask the AG questions, it will call attention to it. I say.. call as much attention to it as possible! at least if they make it illegal, I would rather it be a cut and dry law. I would then know how it would be interpreted by the LE community. As it sits now, the gray area is so deep, everyone (minus a few) is afraid to confront it. Whats the use in having a law that you cant figgure out?

Slatherd
01-05-2005, 04:38 PM
Most recent reply from Costo. Looks like a new contact person. We'll see if it goes any further.

Dear Jeremy,

Thank you for your e-mail to Costco Wholesale.

Your comments are very important to us and we appreciate
your communication on this matter. Your comments
have been forwarded to our executives for their review.
Sincerely,

Barry N.
Costco Wholesale
Customer Service
customerservice@costco.com

G22
01-06-2005, 06:17 AM
CCW is only 1/2 the reason I asked for and received a full refund.

The other half is the fact that they give huge sums of money to a political party that I want nothing to do with. And especially don't want my money going toward. Which is where the idea for this thread originally came from. It started as a topic on another board (about Costco donations). Then someone wrote that they saw NO CCW signs in their Texas stores, which then progressed to contacting them about their signs (in Texas). To which they replied that their CCW policy was in effect nation wide. The CCW Policy (whether it be enforced/legal or not) was secondary to my decision to ask for a refund but still very important to me.

Furthermore Sam's Club donates to a party I agree with more often.

paddy
01-06-2005, 07:41 AM
Where do you buy your consumer electronics, food, shoes, insurance, clothes, phone service, cars, travel/vacation, and ISP service? What brands do you buy? Do you buy American? I don't have time to check on the political leanings of every place I spend money. Most of the time I buy the best product at the best price/service package I can find. If it is American made and donates to the political party I'm with, so much the better.

G22
01-06-2005, 08:21 AM
I don't have time to check on the political leanings of every place I spend money.

Me either. But when I do find out, I tend to spend my money elsewhere.

To each his own i guess.

Slatherd
01-06-2005, 05:20 PM
I get what your saying paddy. I dont always check where something is made. Its a bummer, but you gotta pick and choose your battles. For instance, I wont shop at home depot or cabela's. But, I got a cd player in my truck from Japan.

Ya cant botcott everything. There just isn't enough hours in a day.

WhoIsJohnGalt
01-08-2005, 08:06 AM
...or affordable U.S. products available. :(

Slatherd
01-08-2005, 12:42 PM
right galt. thats probably the most irritating part about it. being able to afford usa stuff.

its like stuff made here is 50% more than overseas stuff. We know why, because it costs more to make the usa stuff. and they get paid a couple bucks a day in other countries to make the same thing. But, if those overseas items didnt exist, we wouldn't know the difference. necause we wouldn't have that choice.