Detroit Cops ammo problems

[jmoser]

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/bullets23e_20050223.htm

Today's Free Press reports Detroit PD is looking into potential ammo issues using Federal 'expanding FMJ' bullets with 'Silicon filled noses.' FYI DPD carries .40 S&W caliber.

Apparently in one shooting one bullet out of 11 failed to penetrate a heavy winter coat; in another a head shot glanced off [but the bad guy reportedly had a metal plate in his head.]

I am not familiar with this bullet - is this ammo 'LEO only?'

Report says the police union pushed to adopt this ammo, supposed to give expansion without overpenetration. If I was a Detroit cop I would want some tough JHP instead of being the guinea pig for new 'trick bullets.' Bad place to use as a test market [although they will generate a lot of data . . . . ]

[karcent]

Unfortunately, there is no "perfect bullet".
It has been reported that JHP can fill up with material from heavy clothing and stop penetrating as well.
It's the reason you see punks dressed with many layers of clothing no matter what the weather is like. They learn tricks like this when they go to that university of higher education in Jackson, or the local county level educational facilities.

That ammo is not LEO only and since it is not a traditional hollow point, it feeds very reliably.

[bluethunder]

Is it kinda liike the "Power Ball" ammo?

[jmoser]

[quote="karcent"]Unfortunately, there is no "perfect bullet".
It has been reported that JHP can fill up with material from heavy clothing and stop penetrating as well.
]

Absolutely correct that there is no 'Perfect Bullet.' (Except that banned 'Black Talon' stuff that 'kills instantly' even with an ankle shot . . . :roll: )

Data I have seen says that when JHPs nose cavities 'plug up' with cloth/fibers it stops them from EXPANDING, not from penetrating. [In other words it turns them into hardball/FMJ.] This should INCREASE penetration.

I can see no technical reason why 'plugging' would stop JHPs from penetrating unless they fully expand before reaching the skin.

Maybe you have seen research that I have not, but this is a big reason why I favor JHPs - most 'failure modes' still result in adequate performance. (Disclaimer: I am not talking about at shooting through walls, windows, or car doors, etc.)

It sounds to me like this Federal 'expanding FMJ' is designed to expand/deform upon impact, making it impervious to the 'plugging' effect. This would certainly seem to make it more prone to failures involving heavy clothing.

I am curious what bullet weight DPD is using, I favor 165 gr in the .40 but might consider the 180s with 'soft nose' bullet design.

[keith]

Ron Scott, spokesman for the Coalition Against Police Brutality, said he's more upset by the frequency of police shootings of people. According to department spokesman James Tate, Detroit police have shot and killed three people so far this year and wounded two others in five separate incidents. Tate said officers were shot at in each incident.


"I challenge them to prove that because people are wearing down coats, they need to pummel them with bullets," Scott said Tuesday. "When they keep doing it, people shoot back. They are starting a war."

Is this guy serious?

[karcent]

Is this guy serious?

Yes, and he is also a dick.

[karcent]

Is it kinda liike the "Power Ball" ammo?



This link gives a pretty good description.
http://www.thegunzone.com/efmj.html

[karcent]

Jeff, I'm not a ballistics expert and I don't have the data to make any kind of arguement either way, but several layers of heavy clothing can significantly slow or stop a bullet of any design.
It is reported that this was a problem in Korea with the M1 Carbine (FMJ) and the heavy clothes worn by the Chinese and NK troops in the winter.

[bluethunder]

Is it kinda liike the "Power Ball" ammo?



This link gives a pretty good description.
http://www.thegunzone.com/efmj.html

Thanks for the link, Kurt. I especially like the 'flying mushroom' picture. :D

[Dale]

I am an expert and first, if the shot to the head against a metal plate was oblique, I am not at all surprised it glanced off.

The shot which is said to have lodged in clothing is a bit harder to explain. Did it go through something before it got to the clothing; I don't know. Was the particular cartridge a short powder load? It can happen.

This bullet seems to be an attempt at a Politically Correct Hollow Point and so is more complex than a hollow point needs to be. If fibers, or indeed anything, plug the opening of a HP round it does tend to behave like ball ammo, that is it penetrates and does not expand, but so what?

Officers are not taught to fire once and see if the round has done what they wish before shooting a second time, they are taught to fire at center of mass until the threat is gone. Whether you use a hollow point or ball, that method will do the job.