45 ACP in ESP

[lawrov]

Good news for those of us that want to shoot multiple divisions with one gun. There's some uncertainty whether 45ACP must shoot CDP under the new rules or whether it can shoot ESP loaded down (similar to folks shooting powder puff 180 gr .40 loads).

I sent an email to IDPA Headquarters, and here's the response for anyone who's interested:

Sir,

As long as it meets the division criteria, .45 ACP is now allowed in ESP.

Sincerely,
Sandra Tumbleson

IDPA Staff

-----Original Message-----

KZ 45 in ESP - Is it ok under the rules? I think so, but our range director isn't sure so I need a word of advise from AK?


Thanks in advance,

[mitommy]

AFAIK
You always could shoot 45acp in ESP and I believe SSP as long as you meet the ALL the class requirements (da / sa pistols can be SSP).

SSP & ESP mave a minimum caliber and 45 acp meets that minimum.

Ask your range director what rule prohibits the KZ 45 in ESP.

[karcent]

What do you guys think of the new rules?

[RSF]

really, here yah go

I think idpa is bs. it once went from a good thing to becommming another game with some bad habits that wil get you killed in real world encounters!

save the divisons save all the bs! make it factory powered ammo, factory guns no mods period no holster bs carry rigs only

and end all the stupid sceanarios of these 8 bad guys break into your home your gun is to your right you yo ugrab it and transfer it to left hand getting al the bad guys then transfer it back reload! yah right! and dont dont this and dont do that. jeesh! get real. it has become nothing but a money maker i see more bad habits come from this people who shuffle there feet, crowd cover, and poor use of tactics idpa is a fun game!

[karcent]

My biggest gripe is the "tactical reload".
It's a move that would get you killed in real life.

[RSF]

the tactical or reserved reload has its place and that is after the bg is down and out! or the bg has left the area and the need totop off the gun in case of re-engagment. the tactical reload should be done from cover and the gun if possible trained on bg or threat area in case subject gets back up, you can still fire the gun and reload very quickly if need be.

[mitommy]

IDPA is a game. Anytime you play a game you have to have rules. The new rules aren't bad once you get away from the silly holster stuff. At first I was disappointed that my Uncle Mike's holster was not legal. Then I remembered that I only paid $15 for it. A "legeal" replacement was going to cost about $45. That is not a lot of money compared to other expenses in shooting. Now I find out there is an advantage to a little extra girth, my Uncle Mike's holster has been legal at the matches I've attended so far.

I feel the stages should be written with enough latitude to allow people to either "play the game" or practice their "tactical training." When I design stages I ltry not to limit the shooter's options. Sometimes a stage has a specific intent and in those cases I'm up front with the shooters. For example I had a stage that required reloads w/ retention at specific points. The intent was to force the shooter to run dry later in the stage and force the shooter to use stowed ammo.

As a SO, when a shooter tells me they are going to do something different, because it is the way they trained, I don't hava a problem with it. (as long as it doesn't circumvent the stage instructions). One advantage of IDPA and IPSC is that it does allows people to get some practice in drawing from a holster and gun handling. They can practice their training OR they can play the game.

I enjoy this type of shooting a whole lot more just shooting at targets, but that is just my outlook.

[lawrov]

It's a game, but it's a game that keeps your shooting skills (trigger control, rapid fire, quick sight picture, smooth draw, etc) high. If it has tactical flaws, well, it is a game after all.

Games are not all bad. It gets me out to shoot 100 rounds a weekend. I personally would be bored to death long before I could make myself shoot that much doing self imposed training drills...

Just one thought...

[lawrov]

FYI,

45 acp was excluded in the old rulebook from ESP..

In the new rulebook it said that SSP guns could also shoot in either ESP or CDP, depending on the caliber (or something pretty similar)..

The question was is this "or" inclusive or exclusive. If you read it exclusively then at least an ssp gun in 45 could not shoot esp - since it could shoot cdp... inclusively then 45 ssp could shoot ESP and CDP.

The last interpretation is the one that makes the most sense and it's what IDPA said in the email above. The problem was that one of our local range directors read the "or" as an exclusive "or"... you can do one or the other, not both. which implies that a CDP gun could not shoot ESP.

I'm happy with the ruling alowing 45 acp in esp and it makes sense. Why could 45 gap shoot in a 10 round division but not 45 acp. Would be a very arbitrary restriction for us ACP guys. It's not gaming. Those little 9s are the gamers... I just get to cut bigger holes for a little more recoil.

Anyway, have fun...

[RSF]

funny only a 100rnds a weekend!


jeesh we shoot about 700 rnds every 3 or 4 days


9mm vs 45 dead is dead


have fun shoot more

[sprink]

jeesh we shoot about 700 rnds every 3 or 4 days



We're jealous.

Of course I shot about 400 rounds in an hour today. :shock:

IDPA and USPSA(IPSC) are not real, but other than having some big goon screaming at you in a class, it's the only shooting "under pressure" most of us can do.

[banjobart]

Amen, Sprink.

Dep...IDPA and IPSC are games, they were always games. IDPA was never training and never was represented as such. It has always been represented as a game. If you can't play the game worth a damn, you don't have to knock the game for those that play it well or enjoy it otherwise.

Come on out and shoot a little IDPA and see how your shooting skills stack up against the gamers. Buck on the match? Good shooting skills are a key element in good tactics.

Do not get me wrong, I have immense respect for the skills a LEO needs to peform their service to our communities. I could not do the job myself. I thank all the LEO's out there.

The tactical reload will get you killed. Give it up. Chuck Taylor did and he was the guy that started it. The Israelis gave it up. 100% failure to execute under stress is the track record of the tactical reload.

However, the tac-load finds it's way into the IDPA rule book because of low magazine capacity rule requirements. I don't really care whether or not I have to do a tac-load when playing a game.

PS; I shoot up 400-500 rounds per hour in IDPA practice. Ask the neighbors of the gun club for verification.

[Kimber45]

Banjobart is really good at IPSC too. :D

[karcent]

Banjobart is really good at IPSC too. :D

...and he makes a heck of a banjo!

I wish I had the time to learn to play one.

[RSF]

i know banjobart is good at both i have seen shoot it! Hey how is my old 940 anyhow?

I have shot idpa and enjoyed it, i had some issues with some of the bs such as reloads and some other of the tactics, andi know it is a good skill builder too.

I dont scream at greg to much only when his glock wont work!

[RSF]

I recommend checking out things a bit better!

[sprink]

I dont scream at greg to much only when his glock wont work!


My other Glocks work! Today I dropped a mag during a reload. I was kneeling, so it was easier to pick up the dropped mag than get a new one.
It was packed with wet sand. Quick tap and in it went. Finished the stage.

When I dropped the mag and showed clear, dirt fell out of the pistol.

[RSF]

sweet!

[mitommy]

IDPA and USPSA(IPSC) are not real, but other than having some big goon screaming at you in a class, it's the only shooting "under pressure" most of us can do.

Steve sure has a way of creating pressure situations.

[Kouger]

oops