Experiment by Diane Sawyer in college classroom.

[Tango125INF11b]

One of my guys in my RSO sent us this. This is a pretty good article on how a certain side of politics (won't have to name the obvious I hope) sets us up to fail. They have to use rigged experiments to prove points that they know are not valid. Here's the proof. Buckeye firearms (Yea, I know. Boo to OSU) is one of Ohio's biggest firearms news sites. Here, Diane Sawyer set up a faux experiment to turn heads against our cause.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/6631

[CnA]

Per the article, "The shooter was a professional firearm instructor"

I would like to see this guy outed, then blacklisted for helping the antis.

[miked]

I've seen this one posted a few times.

Very biased. Both gunmen were experienced LEOs, as well as everyone else in the classroom and they knew where the subject was sitting.

This was a fail scenario from the get go. I can't believe that they can even pass this off as journalism.


I remember seeing a full video of the show on YouTube at one time, but can''t seem to find it now.

[BWHaas]

I saw this too, what a crock of *******. My father in law sent this to me and my reply was "is the public really stupid enough to believe this?"

I later realized that some are.

[Jack-w-1911]

Perhaps some people here at MGO would like to rebut the article with a demonstration with a more likely set of parameters and equipment? I'm sure there are some good candidates/volunteers here that aren't experts, yet are qualified.

[BWHaas]

Perhaps some people here at MGO would like to rebut the article with a demonstration with a more likely set of parameters and equipment? I'm sure there are some good candidates/volunteers here that aren't experts, yet are qualified.
Very good idea. This should be explored because their experiment was awful.

[7.62 Nato]

Perhaps some people here at MGO would like to rebut the article with a demonstration with a more likely set of parameters and equipment? I'm sure there are some good candidates/volunteers here that aren't experts, yet are qualified.
... and have Dianne Sawyer come in as the shooter !

[Jack-w-1911]

... and have Dianne Sawyer come in as the shooter !
Ha!! I love it. :bow:

[BWHaas]

:lolup:

[Tango125INF11b]

I would absolutely love to reconstruct this experiment. I am sure I can get some guys (LEO/and plain Janes) to help out.

[Ogun1987]

I feel like this should be brought up in the minutes during our next RSO meeting.

p.s. taking credit for finding the video that got this thread started!

[Tango125INF11b]

I am still up for hosting this experiment if anyone is willing to help me.

[TAC]

I remember this story. Diane Sawyer poses as a Republican too!

She was also one of the people suspected of being "Deep Throat", the person who was leaking classified information to Bob Woodward, a journalist, during the Watergate scandal.

[supra_2nr]

We had a big discussion about this topic in my business law class at University of Toledo... our professor is a well known lawyer in the toledo area and a gun owner/avid shooter - he was told by the head of UT that he is not allowed to bring a firearm ANYWHERE on campus... even though it is perfectly legal to have it in your car... he had it in his teaching bag almost every class...

[supra_2nr]

oh... and down to help if needed to recreate the experiment...

[5alarm435]

We had a big discussion about this topic in my business law class at University of Toledo... our professor is a well known lawyer in the toledo area and a gun owner/avid shooter - he was told by the head of UT that he is not allowed to bring a firearm ANYWHERE on campus... even though it is perfectly legal to have it in your car... he had it in his teaching bag almost every class...

And he doesn't care who knows or are you possibly outing him?

[CrimDoc]

I am still up for hosting this experiment if anyone is willing to help me.

Where would you want to host it Tango?

I'm a criminal justice professor at Grand Valley State University. Done correctly, this might lead to a solid peer reviewed, academic publication ... which could plausibly impact campus carry legislation and policy (i.e. here's a peer reviewed, academic study that shows CC on campus can save lives ... if that's what the experiment, in fact showed.)

I'd be happy to help write the experimental protocol, and to participate in the experiment.

[durus5995]

Where would you want to host it Tango?

I'm a criminal justice professor at Grand Valley State University. Done correctly, this might lead to a solid peer reviewed, academic publication ... which could plausibly impact campus carry legislation and policy (i.e. here's a peer reviewed, academic study that shows CC on campus can save lives ... if that's what the experiment, in fact showed.)

I'd be happy to help write the experimental protocol, and to participate in the experiment.

That would be cool. I just got done writing a paper on Virginia Tech for a CJ class and I can vouch for the lack of peer reviewed content on this subject.

BTW if anyone is looking for more info about making an argument for conceal carry on campus based on the 2007 Virginia Tech Shootings read these two AARs about the Virginia Tech shooting. Its aggravating how many times it was almost stopped.

Virginia Governors Report
http://www.governor.virginia.gov/tempcontent/techPanelReport-docs/FullReport.pdf

Arch angle Consultants- This report is really good. It has Cho's entire mental health leading up to the shooting. It also has a great amount of info about the police response as well as medical response.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roanoke.com%2Fnews%2F092508_a rchangel.pdf&ei=SFWkUI6HGar10gHO94CwCQ&usg=AFQjCNHgd3MhhfNp2ugP9Mx1TYl14i_Eug

[Tango125INF11b]

Where would you want to host it Tango?

I'm a criminal justice professor at Grand Valley State University. Done correctly, this might lead to a solid peer reviewed, academic publication ... which could plausibly impact campus carry legislation and policy (i.e. here's a peer reviewed, academic study that shows CC on campus can save lives ... if that's what the experiment, in fact showed.)

I'd be happy to help write the experimental protocol, and to participate in the experiment.

I would be willing to do this experiment anywhere that allowed us to do so.

[Huntergreen]

-That is interesting stuff.
I've read recently the carry permit rate in MI is one in four,so same fraction for the experiment.

Use laser emitters and 'targets' so no protective gear is needed,except for laser spectrum blocking eyeglasses.

That gear is already quite common for laser variations on paint ball games.
(helped install some lasers in a game facility)

Have the student wear what they would normally wear,carrying or not.

No instructions to panic,or perhaps re-create actual panic rates vs the paralyzed effect and action effect.

If you wanted to get real fancy the laser receivers could be hooked to an onboard computer that would determine 'injured' (able to fire back) or "killed" unable to fire back.

Have the same basic skill for the shooter as for the carriers, no professionals.

The media would go crazy on that.
(Or be silent)
Ok,silent.

On edit:
I don't do video due to low bandwidth,but the pic on the article showed row type seating with physical walls between rows,allowing for cover as well as concealment for those who ducked.

Actual classrooms do not have knee walls to hide behind.

[DLYskes1976]

i watched the video on youtube and easily figured out it was rigged..... and then when i said something about it being rigged, someone blasted me lol......

[DLYskes1976]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=5&v=ZryfuNgdSHY

[bobby_boxhead]

always entertaining

[Frisco_AZMI]

My department back in AZ (I was a part of the PD team who participated), ran several dozen drills on weekends in local schools who would allow participation with simmunitions and teachers (acting as the The Shooter, a Defending Student, and a Defending Teacher) who had a minimum of firearms training (i.e. CCW class only, basically a firearms safety seminar with 50 rounds of live fire) as the defenders in an active shooter scenario.

Some interesting things came to light. Most interestingly, more than half the time the defender was able to address the threat and get rounds off and on target. Bear in mind this was a minimally trained teacher with a minimum of training versus an experienced officer.

(Before anyone screams COPS CAN'T SHOOT...our department is very well trained and the officers who participated were all instructors).

The active dynamic was that the officer who was the shooter had not been into the classroom before, and the desks were all filled with other officers as well as the defending teacher, or the teacher of the class was the defender, so they were double blind and didn't know in advance which person was going to be the one shooting at them. Obviously this took any advantage the shooter had in coming in, targeting a specific individual, and neutralizing them first.

In drills where the defender was another officer, the threat was neutralized every single time. Equal training versus equal training.

In drills where both the shooter and the defender were teachers (minimal training and NO tactical training)...the defender was still able to neutralize the shooter 4/5 times.

In every case where the person acting as the teacher/defender had "advanced warning of shots fired" they were able neutralize the threat almost immediately. One time, a teacher/defender actually had the presence of mind to simply lock the door and instructed the "students" to get on the floor while SHE aimed her Sim gun at the now-locked door. I wanted to kiss her.

I don't have the report or access to it anymore as I was not the one in charge of the study...but I may be able to get one, but under the new chief of my former department...it may be taboo for BS political reasons.

NOTE: In all but a couple of drills, there were casualties among the "students" because the shooter came in firing, but the overall result was that far fewer were "killed" because someone in the room was able to address the threat and mount a defense.

The Sim guns that were used were K Frame Smith revolvers. If we had access to our Glock Sim guns then I would say with some certainty that the results would have been an initial higher body count among students.

We weren't able to access the AR platform Sim guns for the tests, so the data was limited to single active shooter armed with a 6-shot revolver...but it gave a lot of us a good insight into the active dynamic of a situation and we were pretty well able to extrapolate on our own what the results of higher capacity weapons would be.

An officer armed with his patrol rifle (which 99% of us carried) would have turned the classroom into a virtual slaughterhouse because we would obviously use tactics, training, and cover to address specific targets rather than spray and pray. An amateur dirt shooter with an AR, AK, SKS, or other assault (style) carbine platform would most probably default to spray and pray and still have a good chance of being neutralized. The officer would be able to reload efficiently and keep up a good continuity of fire and most probably use cover as available. The dirt shooter would not (in all probability) be able to do any of those things efficiently.

We can cover high capacity 9mm, 40, and 45 pistols and "what if" this to infinity...but I think the tests demonstrated the reality that an armed student or teacher with a minimum of training could mount a defense and reduce casualties. A better trained student, or teacher, could save more lives.

Sorry for the long post. I am relying on 5 year old memory for this. If I can get a copy of the report I will post it. I am all for CCW on campus as long as the carrier has at least the minimum training for a state CCW (hopefully more).

[luckless]

Very interesting!

Thank you for sharing your experience.