New pistol shooter, shooting low and left. Help please.

[Badmunky]

Ok so I'm new to shooting pistols.
But not new to shooting. I have been shooting rifles and shotguns for a long time.
With a Rifle I'm fairly good. And Can hit the kill zone even with a rifle I have never fired before on my first try. (Given that the rife has been sighted in that is)
Here is my target from my last range day where I shot for the fist time ever an AR15 at 25 yards with open sights, no rest and no sling, standing.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/Badmunky/Guns/2011-03-05154039-1.jpg

I have been to the range with my 90-Two 9mm pistol a few times now and have had a blast every time. But I am having a problem I need some help with.

I am low and just left on almost every shot.
Here is my fist target of the day.
7 Yards.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/Badmunky/Guns/2011-03-05184853.jpg

And here is my last for the day.
7 Yards.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/Badmunky/Guns/2011-03-05192512.jpg

I asked the range master to help me and he watched me and said I was doing everything right. So I asked him to shoot the gun. He was all over the place. Thou he only put about 15 rounds threw it. He said he was not sure if it was me or the gun.

Any one have any ideas what I'm doing wrong? Could it be the gun?
My wife also shot it that day but was all over the place.
My friend shot it and liked it, and was also low and left 90% of the time or better.

Thanks.

[RSF]

First off what range was it the range master is an idiot.


Second of all come to YSINTG put on by MDFI www.Michigantrainer.com
Bring your wife as well

You will be shooting 100% better and learn alot more about it

issues can be fixed by those who can show you teach you and break it down for you and more Look for the reviews

Or simply meet me at my club one afternoon for some one on one time and get you headed in the right direction

[Joeywhat]

Right handed?

Most likely trigger control issues. Press straight back to the rear, keep the sights aligned throughout the press. Looks like you are flinching.

[Badmunky]

First off what range was it the range master is an idiot.


Second of all come to YSINTG put on by MDFI www.Michigantrainer.com
Bring your wife as well

You will be shooting 100% better and learn alot more about it

issues can be fixed by those who can show you teach you and break it down for you and more Look for the reviews

Or simply meet me at my club one afternoon for some one on one time and get you headed in the right direction

It was at TopGun Shooting Sports. Nice range for the most part the guy I asked for help may have been the wrong guy to ask.

I'm a truck driver and can never be sure when I may be home. (Sucks big time trust me.)
And so classes are a problem as I may sign up and not make it back in time Or get home to soon and not be able to stay for them.

This is making getting my CPL a big pain right now.


I would gladly come to you for a range day! Your not that far from me.
Problem is most of the time I can give you 2-4 days heads up that I will be in town and ready to go.

If that's cool with you then I'm game!
I will be free Wednesday for most of the day then off to work for a few weeks to a month. Might stay till Thursday, but I'm not sure yet.

PM me contact info if that might work for you.



Joeywhat.
_______________
I think you may be right.
Yes I am right handed. Though trigger control may be a problem for me. I have an injury to my hand that deformed it slightly. It limits my range of motion in 3 of my fingers. Including my trigger finger.

This is something I will have to work past. Or around.
But am sure I can overcome!

Thanks guys!

[Jaws]

I'm working through the exact same issue right now. I spent most of last year rifle shooting and switched back to pistols just last weekend.

Low and left is typical for a right handed shooter. It can be caused by a flinch, bad trigger control or squeezing the grip with your pinky and ring finger while you you squeeze the trigger (or all three).

The best fix is to dry fire at home with a snap cap or dummie round. Pull the trigger a few times and watch the muzzle. Then work on your grip and trigger pull until the muzzle doesn't move.

You can also check to see if you're breaking your wrist or squeezing with your lower fingers by just making a fist and pulling an "air" trigger. In my case I could see my whole hand tilting.

After about 1/2 hour of dry firing I've got most of it worked out. I've modified my grip some and learned to steady my wrist muscles before pulling the trigger. Otherwise you'll tense those muscles during the pull which will rotate it low and left.

Good luck.

[SlowDog]

It comes from curling your trigger finger rather then pulling straight back on the trigger like your supposed to. It is a trait found with most male shooters so don't get too worked up over it. It just means you need to work on it and gain some muscle memory. Think of how a pitcher has to throw every day for years before he can throw a strike without thinking about it. Like stated earlier....practice alot while keeping a mental notehow & where yourtrigger finger istraveling through the process.....

[sakata8242]

I would say you might have a slight flinch where you are anticipating the recoil and slightly pushing down with your shooting hand. It does not have to be very pronounced to result in a significant deviation, and chances are you aren't even aware you're doing it. I am working on correcting the same kind of low-left shooting. One way to know for sure is to have someone else load up your magazines and throw in a snap cap or two, then watch you shoot.

[RSF]

Wow are you guys off base.........


Lost of self correcting training scars i see

let me know i can often do a day like that when im in town
we can shoot

Currling , pinky fingers etc is all BS
often dry fire only makes the issue worse Tom has outlined many times beofre as have others
often a flinch can also be a timing the gun issue

[TheTrainingTeamCPL]

Wheres the PIE chart!!!!!!!!!

[Jaws]

let me know i can often do a day like that when im in town
we can shoot


Dry firing brought my first target right on tonight. Second target was back to the same old low/left. On the third target I walked the circle. After that I started dry firing between 10 shot groups. I was able to bring in back by the last group. I had 4 almost in the same hole, the rest centered and 1 flyer. Not there yet but I'm working on it.

If you got the cure for this flinch/pull or whatever it is sign me up and bring it on! :badass:

Seriously let me know. I'm only down in Westland and don't mind driving for some good training.

[Tedfs]

Wheres the PIE chart!!!!!!!!!

http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/pie-chart-20090811-123901.jpg


On a serious note, take RSF's advice and hit him up for a day at the range.
Having a good trainer break down why you are shooting low left will help you understand how
to correct it.

[tjmower]

I have this same problem. It was really noticeable today when I went to shoot.

[dougwg]

Range day with Stevie!?!?...count me in.

[Remasculated]

Wheres the PIE chart!!!!!!!!!

Here go...

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u252/todd_schlissler/Gun%20stuff/bullseyeshootinghelp.jpg

[cmike]

Flinching.

Press back toward the frame.

[SlowMo52]

I shoot low and RIGHT. LOL If im not on, its low and right. Never knew why.

[nhjeffs]

Range day with Stevie!?!?...count me in.

I made it for one last year. Real eye opener for a newer shooter.

Count me in also.

[TheTrainingTeamCPL]

Here go...

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u252/todd_schlissler/Gun%20stuff/bullseyeshootinghelp.jpg


PERFECT!!!

[CrimDoc]

I'm going to give you some advice that is going to get me "flamed" by the "experts" in this forum ... but so be it ...

Does your pistol have adjustable sights? If so ... adjust them 1 inch right and 1 inch up ... problem solved. The reason I say that is because you seem to have shot a very nice group in the second target you posted (once you got used to the gun) ... it's just a little low and left. That means you're CONSISTENT ... if you can move that group to the center ... you'll be CONSISTENTLY hitting the bullseye ... that's exactly what you want.

I've noticed that this kind of thinking has fallen out of favor with the "expert" community as of late ... they'll tell you that anything other than hitting the same place the gun hits when shot from an Ransom rest is unacceptable. I say that's stupid. The gun is the tool for the PERSON ... so it's not the PERSON that needs to be adapted to the gun.

In years past, it was very common for superb marksmen to acknowledge that everyone holds their weapons, and pulls their triggers a little differently (owning to the natural mechanics of their bodies) ... hence, while they would correct serious fundamental errors, they would also realize that each weapon needs to be "sighted in" for each shooter (that's why target pistols ALL have adjustable sights!) Today ... you tell some "experts" that and they'll practically rip your head off and call you an idiot to your face.

Funny thing is ... the "proof is in the puddin'" ... I was recently watching "Top Shot" on TV ... this "expert" military / homeland security fellow had to shoot an elimination challenge with a pistol versus this little Asian fellow (who's primarily an archer, not a pistol shooter). The "expert" was soundly praised by an even bigger "expert" who was brought on to train them on how to shoot the pistol: the trainer practically guaranteed that Mr. Miltary / Homeland Security would wipe the floor with the other guy. The little Asian fellow was criticized for not knowing what he was doing and for shooting the pistol using an incorrect and outdated "Barney Fife" cup and saucer grip.

Then they did the competition ... 3 guesses who won ... that's right ... the little Asian fellow!

And if you still don't believe me ... I often refer to an ex-Olympic shooter who practices at my home pistol range. A guy who I guarantee would beat anyone on these fora in a bullseye pistol shooting competition (I've seen him put all 10 rounds in the 10 ring ... single hole group, from 15 yards ... with both his target .22 and his target .45). But give him a pistol that's been sighted off a Ransom rest and guess what he'll do? Shoot you a single hole, less than 1" group ... about 1 1/2" LOW AND LEFT.

Alright experts ... flame away! ;0)


I am low and just left on almost every shot.
Here is my fist target of the day.
7 Yards.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/Badmunky/2011-03-05184853.jpg

And here is my last for the day.
7 Yards.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/Badmunky/2011-03-05192512.jpg

[TRoebs00]

You lost me at "Top Shot".....

[RSF]

Hey crimdoc

Bring that theory your guns ammo to class as my guest
Also wtf how are they to adjust sights if they are non adjustable

So bring your target gun and come on

[7of9]

Badmunky - have you had your eyes checked to see which eye is dominant? Do you know? If you have astigmatisms or need bifocals, etc., that may be your issue. Some people that have a dominant eye opposite their strong hand have a tough time with hand guns till they figure out that is the problem.

Also, there are some instructors that say you should have both eyes open when shooting a pistol. Me - dead accurate (pun intended) when closing my weak eye. Do what works.

[CrimDoc]

How do you know his sights are not adjustable ... unless I missed it all he told us was that he owns 2 9mm pistols ... never even told us the type (much less that they have fixed sites).

Where do you teach and when are your classes?


Hey crimdoc

Bring that theory your guns ammo to class as my guest
Also wtf how are they to adjust sights if they are non adjustable

So bring your target gun and come on

[jeffegg2]

Badmunky - have you had your eyes checked to see which eye is dominant? Do you know? If you have astigmatisms or need bifocals, etc., that may be your issue. Some people that have a dominant eye opposite their strong hand have a tough time with hand guns till they figure out that is the problem.

Also, there are some instructors that say you should have both eyes open when shooting a pistol. Me - dead accurate (pun intended) when closing my weak eye. Do what works.

My instructor explained to me that in a flight or fight mode when I lose all fine muscle control, closing one eye to aim is not possible. Therefore it is wise to practice with both eyes open. If you are planning to use your gun for self defense anyway.....

[shurhouse]

Hey crimdoc

Bring that theory your guns ammo to class as my guest
Also wtf how are they to adjust sights if they are non adjustable

So bring your target gun and come on

Need to find a way to disagree with Steve so I can get invited to a range day.

[Badmunky]

Badmunky - have you had your eyes checked to see which eye is dominant? Do you know? If you have astigmatisms or need bifocals, etc., that may be your issue. Some people that have a dominant eye opposite their strong hand have a tough time with hand guns till they figure out that is the problem.

Also, there are some instructors that say you should have both eyes open when shooting a pistol. Me - dead accurate (pun intended) when closing my weak eye. Do what works.

I am right handed and right eye dominant. I do have an astigmatism.
I shoot with both eyes open as well.
And I do wear glasses, however they are 4+ years old now and need to be replaced soon.
They are not bifocals, however I do not know if I need them yet. Don't think so thou. I'm only 30 years old.




How do you know his sights are not adjustable ... unless I missed it all he told us was that he owns 2 9mm pistols ... never even told us the type (much less that they have fixed sites).

Where do you teach and when are your classes?

My sights can be adjusted left and right only.
I have a Beretta 90-Two. The other 9mm was a friends gun not mine. Its an H&K. I don't remember what model thou. Its about 5-6 years old.
I would rather not have to put target sights on my gun but will if that's whats needed.

I really think that some range time with some one that is good at teaching, and shooting is what I need. That and some proper dry fire practice.

Remember guys, I have only put about 1,100-1,200 rounds threw a pistol in my life at this point. So its probably my fault I'm low and left.
Though I would like to fire the gun from a bench vise to be sure. But I don't have one, or know any one that dose have one.

[RSF]

bench or vise is not needed...

what is needed is a day on the range with someone who knows what to look for and how to ocrrect it correctly and what the signs are of the issue..etc....

Low left is most common issue with a lot of shooters that is how YSINTG class came about

[7of9]

Well then, at your age it is probably not your eyes. Since you don't know anyone with a ransom, have you tried dry firing with a quarter on top of the barrel? See if you can get a smooth trigger pull and keep the quarter balanced. Try and eliminate the problems one by one.

[Buzzcat]

Quick fix:

Aim high and right.

Just sayin'.... :lol:

I had the same problem, as do thousands of folks. Keep practicing, it gets better once you get more comfortable with your grip and trigger pull.

[Badmunky]

bench or vise is not needed...

what is needed is a day on the range with someone who knows what to look for and how to ocrrect it correctly and what the signs are of the issue..etc....

Low left is most common issue with a lot of shooters that is how YSINTG class came about


I would love to go to YSINTG. However both classes they have listed for the year are already full. And being a truck driver I would more then likely not make it home in time for the class and end up paying for something I did not even get to do. This has happened to me several times already. FYI I HATE MY JOB!!!! LOL.

But its all I can find right now.:fur3:

I'm down for a range day thou.
Right now I am working on trying to get my CLP as well. But most places want you to come in a sign up for there class in person, then come to the class 10-15 days later. I cant do that. I get 1-5 days lead time that I will be home. And will be home for 3-7 days. This makes getting anything done that has to be set up in advance a real pain the *&$#.

Thou I have found a guy that will come to me, when I have time. But hes not cheap. So I'm going to use him as I can not find any other option that will work for me at this time.

RSF I will PM you the next time I am home.
Figure about 3 weeks or so from now.

[RSF]

I would love to go to YSINTG. However both classes they have listed for the year are already full. And being a truck driver I would more then likely not make it home in time for the class and end up paying for something I did not even get to do. This has happened to me several times already. FYI I HATE MY JOB!!!! LOL.

But its all I can find right now.:fur3:

I'm down for a range day thou.
Right now I am working on trying to get my CLP as well. But most places want you to come in a sign up for there class in person, then come to the class 10-15 days later. I cant do that. I get 1-5 days lead time that I will be home. And will be home for 3-7 days. This makes getting anything done that has to be set up in advance a real pain the *&$#.

Thou I have found a guy that will come to me, when I have time. But hes not cheap. So I'm going to use him as I can not find any other option that will work for me at this time.

RSF I will PM you the next time I am home.
Figure about 3 weeks or so from now.


Oh do share? who is it...

[my911]

First off what range was it the range master is an idiot.

I had to remove the url since this is my 1st post here

You will be shooting 100% better and learn alot more about it

issues can be fixed by those who can show you teach you and break it down for you and more Look for the reviews

Or simply meet me at my club one afternoon for some one on one time and get you headed in the right direction

Hi,
I no longer live in MI but did for 9 glorious years ( Orchard Lake/West Bloomfield)
I am a left handed shooter and need training. I can't come to YSINTG.
Can you refer me to anyone near Charleston?

My problem is both accuracy and spread.
At 7 yds my groups fit into a 9 in pie plate (92-95%).....I would like to strive for 4 in.
Secondly, the group is biased about 1-1/2 in to the right.

All recommendations /referrals are appreciated.

Thanks

[my911]

Flinching.

Press back toward the frame.

Is that a description or a cure?
Please explain to a dummy what "Press back toward the frame." means especially "back toward".... and also "frame"
As you can see, I'm having difficulty transforming your message into action.

Thanks

[my911]

Thanks for the info.
But without feedback it is hard for me to know if I'm building bad or good habits/memory.
Do you know of any YouTube videos that demo "curling" and HOW to fix it.
I tried making mental notes about where my finger is traveling...couldn't figure it out.

Thanks

[my911]

Ok....BS, maybe. But that doesn't help.
Where has "Tom" outlined
* What to look for
* How to associate result with cause
* How to fix cause

I figure you guys understand all the jargon, but I don't know what flinching, curling, milking etc really mean.
Can you steer me to a good source or a good trainer near Charleston SC?

[my911]

ok..I surrender
What is YSINTG?....Your Shooting is Not Too Good?...Your Sight is Not the Gun?.... You're Shooting In Nice Tight Groups?
???????????????????????????

[my911]

Quick fix:

Aim high and right.

Just sayin'.... :lol:

I had the same problem, as do thousands of folks. Keep practicing, it gets better once you get more comfortable with your grip and trigger pull.

I can "aim off" to fix my "center", but I also want a tighter group....
Group is 95% in a 9 in group at 7 yards.....biased left about 1 1/2 inches.....
How to get a 4 in group?

[Jackam]

Welcome to MGO my911!

We have all sorts of threads, dealing with all sorts of issues, but diving into a conversation from March of 2011 will probably not get you the answers you seek. Some of those guys are dead. Some have moved on, a few are still here.

You might want to try looking at newer threads that haven't reached their "Use by" date :D

[tenthumbs]

Who died? I must have missed any mention of a death of anyone posting in this thread.

[jolari]

my911, what type of gun are you shooting and are you shooting two handed? If you are left handed and shooting low right then you are probably "flinching". Flinching means you are anticipating the recoil and pushing the gun down and right just prior to the shot. If you can't find someone to watch you, a good way to test this is have someone load your gun with a snap cap mixed in with live rounds. A snap cap is a dummy bullet that loads into your gun like a normal bullet but will not fire. It is typically painted some solid color and you can buy them in the caliber of your gun from your local sporting goods store. If you are flinching you will find yourself pushing the gun down and right when you try to fire the snap cap. One way I have found to train out of flinching is to deliberately slow down your trigger pull. Pull the trigger as slow as you can while concentrating on keeping the front site on the target. The gun should go off as a suprise. Of course, all of this assumes your sights are correct. You can check that by shooting with the gun resting on a sand bag. Again pull the trigger slowly while shooting from the sand bag. If you still need help and can't find anyone, try looking on the NRA website for pistol instructors and take the Basic Pistol class.

YSINTG = "You suck, its not the gun" which is the name of a class that is put on by MDFI which is a training academy here in Michigan.

[sideshow20]

i am having this problem as well because i was shooting a gen 3 glock 19 and when i was shooting all my shots were hitting left...i was shooting at a body target....but when i put the "standard" target up i was able to get it in the middle with one shot and that was at 20 feet. any suggestions?