Man shoots himself, is killed, in CPL class

[wJAKE19]

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110310/NEWS01/103100345/Man-shoots-kill-himself-conceal-carry-gun-class

this is why I keep my classes small and teach per NRA requirements. I also evaluate each students needs and only ask them to do what I feel is safe for them.
I also do a lot of dry practice with gun manipulation, loading/ unloading, shooting around cover, strong hand/weak hand, all with unloaded plugged guns, or blue guns.
I pray this never happens in one of my classes.

[donald150]

Well I wonder if they were taking a NRA course? It is not part of the PPITH course to "pull a concealed weapon with their non-dominant hand, take the safety off, aim and shoot."

I wonder if it was the PPOTH course.

This is why I am on them from the start about having their finger on the trigger when they should not and keeping it pointed down range.

What state was that in?

[pgaplayerless]

Darwinism?

Looks like a "safety" killed another person....

[donald150]

Can't blame Glock for this one.

[wJAKE19]

Can't blame Glock for this one.
your right, pistols with manual safteys are MORE dangerous than guns without. :clap:

[Knightrider03m]

Sigh, I've clicked a safety off with my left hand on a gun made for a right handed shooter.... it isn't that hard and I never had the gun turn on me :tsk:

[RayMich]

This didn't take place in Michigan. It was in Douglas County, Missouri.

[donald150]

Sigh, I've clicked a safety off with my left hand on a gun made for a right handed shooter.... it isn't that hard and I never had the gun turn on me :tsk:


I know,

I am still trying to picture how that happened.:shocked:

[7of9]

"We're going to go over the lesson plan, to be sure this doesn't happen again," said Degase.

Ya think??? :shocked:

[wildkarrde2484]

Disable guns for practice, especially with new maneuvers!

[45 acp]

he was shooting left hand
"Seymour was manipulating the safety with his left index finger,"
so what finger pulled the trigger?
Was this a gun malfunction?
Of course having the muzzle pointed at your chest for any reason is totally un excuseable

[wildkarrde2484]

he was shooting left hand
"Seymour was manipulating the safety with his left index finger,"
so what finger pulled the trigger?
Was this a gun malfunction?
Of course having the muzzle pointed at your chest for any reason is totally un excuseable

I could see it happening if the middle finger crept up while he was disabling the safety with his index finger. The pointing at the chest, I can't see at all...

[cmike]

Awful.

[Darminator]

It's sad to lose another Concealed Carrier. Obviously this man was taking the necessary steps in the right direction to ensure his personal safety just as any of us. If you're not familiar with an auto you shouldn't be drawing from concealment weak handed at your CPL class! I blame the instructor.

Poor man, RIP

[gijoecam]

I could see it happening if the middle finger crept up while he was disabling the safety with his index finger. The pointing at the chest, I can't see at all...

I was thinking maybe he had turned the gun around in his left hand, say so far that he *thought* his thumb was on the front of the trigger guard when it was, in fact, on the trigger itself. That's the only way I can think of... Otherwise, trying to manipulate a conventional safety with the tip of the index finger, I can't see any other way to rotate the gun to make it happen?

[fotophocus]

Obviously this man was taking the necessary steps in the right direction to ensure his personal safety just as any of us.

:???: If you are taking the necessary steps to ensure personal safety, it's impossible to shoot yourself in the chest.

[badriverbarber]

Chapter 1. Rule,1 Is----------------ALWAYS. what class?
ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction..
Or -NEVER point a gun at anything your not willing to DESTORY...

[Dabears!]

:???: If you are taking the necessary steps to ensure personal safety, it's impossible to shoot yourself in the chest.
or in darminators case the foot.:hide:

[miked]

Sad story, with so many levels of failure. This could should have easily been avoided

[sullyxlh]

Wondered how it happened
It makes sense now...

Z7AMMF7WaB8

[michiganfan]

"I think prior to having them shoot left-handed, they probably should have spent more time on left hand manipulation prior to going live fire," said Degase.


I think they should have spent more time on the 4 rules than anything else.

[michiganfan]

Wow just watched the video. I just cant grasp an insrtuctor asking a newbie or anyone to perform a drill where the muzzle of loaded gun points at your own chest.

[pgaplayerless]

Wow just watched the video. I just cant grasp an insrtuctor asking a newbie or anyone to perform a drill where the muzzle of loaded gun points at your own chest.


Normally it's not when performing the drill.

[akrapovic]

Scary stuff

[Leader]

Wow just watched the video. I just cant grasp an insrtuctor asking a newbie or anyone to perform a drill where the muzzle of loaded gun points at your own chest.

Then it is obvious that your comprehension skills are such that you shouldn't be allowed to own firearms.

At NO point in this drill is the firearm pointed in anything other then a safe position.

[MINI-14MAN]

It's sad to lose another Concealed Carrier. Obviously this man was taking the necessary steps in the right direction to ensure his personal safety just as any of us. If you're not familiar with an auto you shouldn't be drawing from concealment weak handed at your CPL class! I blame the instructor.

Poor man, RIP
I agree,I blame the instructor also.This drill is for experienced shooters.

[Pistol Teacher]

Originally Posted by michiganfan
Wow just watched the video. I just cant grasp an insrtuctor asking a newbie or anyone to perform a drill where the muzzle of loaded gun points at your own chest.


Then it is obvious that your comprehension skills are such that you shouldn't be allowed to own firearms.

At NO point in this drill is the firearm pointed in anything other then a safe position.


Just curious leader did you even read his post or is this you being yourself.
..

[Pistol Teacher]

My condolences go out too this gentleman's family and friends.

I do not know of any classes that teach weak hand use or draw or holster draw for a CPL class it is to much train for in this class.

Not knowing the facts there maybe other factors from on my experience. One is the individual was a revolver person. You can readily identify if the revolver is loaded while maintain the gun down range by opening the cylinder as it should in a safe manner.

But when they changed to a pistol this would have been a different procedure then a revolver, that is not often taught by instructors. Some do a press check to see if it is loaded. The issue is you cannot see if the chamber is loaded without turning the pistol. I demonstrate this in my class all the time. I show them what could happen with a dummy pistol. Then next I will demonstrate the correct procedure of you moving around the gun by shifting your position sideways to down range to observe the chamber not crossing the firing line. Then returning your body facing down range again with the pistol bore axis always downrange the whole time.
The second issue is the changing from a revolver to a pistol there should have been a cooling down period similar to the NRA cooling down period prior to reloading after dry firing.

[miccwroy]

Horrible and horribly stupid waste.

[Leader]

Just curious leader did you even read his post or is this you being yourself.
..

Yes I read it, why do you ask?

[eje201]

Wow

[usmcsgt]

Most of the established ranges in my area to my knowledge do not allow drawing/firing from holsters. The ccw instructors that I have had contact with also do not allow this. Probably a good thing too, I've seen a number of people in classes that were completely clueless. I've had to tackle "experienced" shooters on the line who were flagging other people with their loaded weapon. Unless I have personal experience with a shooter, I'm not going to trust them with my life by putting myself and others in harms way by teaching anything other than point down range and squeeze the trigger. Just because someone says they know how to shoot doesn't mean they are experienced. Completely avoidable, and tragic. And before I get a multitude of replies about being unsafe because I tackled someone who had a loaded weapon, don't bother. I didn't tackle the person, I tackled the weapon. The person happened to be in the way.

[RSF]

Most of the established ranges in my area to my knowledge do not allow drawing/firing from holsters. The ccw instructors that I have had contact with also do not allow this. Probably a good thing too, I've seen a number of people in classes that were completely clueless. I've had to tackle "experienced" shooters on the line who were flagging other people with their loaded weapon. Unless I have personal experience with a shooter, I'm not going to trust them with my life by putting myself and others in harms way by teaching anything other than point down range and squeeze the trigger. Just because someone says they know how to shoot doesn't mean they are experienced. Completely avoidable, and tragic. And before I get a multitude of replies about being unsafe because I tackled someone who had a loaded weapon, don't bother. I didn't tackle the person, I tackled the weapon. The person happened to be in the way.

guess they weren't that experienced huh.
tackle me or my gun your bound to get freaking surprise

In 15 years of teaching i have never tackled a student or idiot at another range.. either MIL/LEO/ or armed citizens at classes or ranges

there are better ways to handle it, your way would have gotten me a lot of money and you a trip to jail after the hospital or morgue

[dougwg]

guess they weren't that experienced huh.
tackle me or my gun your bound to get freaking surprise

In 15 years of teaching i have never tackled a student or idiot at another range.. either MIL/LEO/ or armed citizens at classes or ranges

there are better ways to handle it, your way would have gotten me a lot of money and you a trip to jail after the hospital or morgue
I think he meant he grabbed the gun ( I hope)... I could be wrong though.

[RSF]

I think he meant he grabbed the gun ( I hope)... I could be wrong though.


Grab my gun, I take that as a life threatening attack and the person doing it would be likely to get a knife or my BUG then again i wouldn't be muzzling anyone.,

[.44Smith&Wesson]

I think he meant he grabbed the gun ( I hope)... I could be wrong though.

Still a very bad idea. I would never think to try and grab the gun away from a shooter who is mishandling the weapon. I imagine it would be much safer to just use words to address the shooter. IMO

[Tom Fineis]

Take that video with a dumptruck of salt. The guy who made it was not present, doesn't know the instructor from the CCW course, nor the techniques as to what was being used. That video is a wild ass guess, at best.

The video seems to want to hang the instructor for a mistake the student made. Is there a chance the student was performing an unsafe or improper technique? Sure. But there is just as much of a chance that the student screwed up and paid the price. Another instructor coming right out and blaming his peer for the death is completely and totally inappropriate, IMO.

I wasn't there, so I can't comment on what happened, but neither can the dude in the video.

People have said that the technique is too "advanced" for a basic CCW course. The instructor was going beyond the legal minimum in an attempt to teach his students skills based on real life possibilities, and is being hung out to dry because of it. If we never taught above the current skill level, nobody would ever learn anything.

Anyone who has taught a course before knows that some people just simply don't get it. I've had students point guns at themselves on more than one occasion. You can hammer the rules and techniques in as much as you want, but nothing can stop another human being from making stupid mistakes they knew they shouldn't do.

The drill being shown is NOT the best way to do a weak handed draw, which further shows the lack of current TTP's from the people making the video.

Just my spin. I don't know anything of the situation other than the news reports and the video posted.

[dougwg]

Grab my gun, I take that as a life threatening attack and the person doing it would be likely to get a knife or my BUG then again i wouldn't be muzzling anyone.,
I'm grabbing your gun right now :coolgleam:

[dougwg]

Take that video with a dumptruck of salt. The guy who made it was not present, doesn't know the instructor from the CCW course, nor the techniques as to what was being used. That video is a wild ass guess, at best.

The video seems to want to hang the instructor for a mistake the student made. Is there a chance the student was performing an unsafe or improper technique? Sure. But there is just as much of a chance that the student screwed up and paid the price. Another instructor coming right out and blaming his peer for the death is completely and totally inappropriate, IMO.

I wasn't there, so I can't comment on what happened, but neither can the dude in the video.

People have said that the technique is too "advanced" for a basic CCW course. The instructor was going beyond the legal minimum in an attempt to teach his students skills based on real life possibilities, and is being hung out to dry because of it. If we never taught above the current skill level, nobody would ever learn anything.

Anyone who has taught a course before knows that some people just simply don't get it. I've had students point guns at themselves on more than one occasion. You can hammer the rules and techniques in as much as you want, but nothing can stop another human being from making stupid mistakes they knew they shouldn't do.

The drill being shown is NOT the best way to do a weak handed draw, which further shows the lack of current TTP's from the people making the video.

Just my spin. I don't know anything of the situation other than the news reports and the video posted.
agreed

[RSF]

I'm grabbing your gun right now :coolgleam:

how does it look.....wait which one

[dougwg]

how does it look.....wait which one
dunno.. I got my eyes closed...

[Ruger]

Douglass..................Stop the perverted subliminal suggestions..... :tsk:

[RSF]

dunno.. I got my eyes closed...


Whore see yah saturday

[Havok_Beoulve]

Screw taking Steves Gun... I want to take this guys knife... he cant get guns out of his pockets fast enough to defend himself anyways... Wanker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnziQor3iwU

[hendo]

I'm grabbing your gun right now :coolgleam:

Don't squeeze too hard or it'll go off in your hand and your shoes will be a mess :hick:

[usmcsgt]

guess they weren't that experienced huh.
tackle me or my gun your bound to get freaking surprise

In 15 years of teaching i have never tackled a student or idiot at another range.. either MIL/LEO/ or armed citizens at classes or ranges

there are better ways to handle it, your way would have gotten me a lot of money and you a trip to jail after the hospital or morgue


I'm quite sure that you're probably experienced enough to not be pointing a loaded weapon at people and therefore wouldn't be pointing it at other people anyways. I understand it is a litigious society but I'd rather be broke in court than have my family grow older without me, although at times my wife may disagree with that one. And yes, the student wasn't very experienced. Let me clarify. Neither myself or the student were civilians and therefore I didn't have to worry about liability. Secondly, it was the weapon that was tackled. Third, it was less a tackle than grabbing the barrel pointing it downrange and pinning the rifle to the ground. I did not wrestle the weapon from him. And last, they were shooting from the prone position. For those of you familiar with USMC shooting techniques of past years, it involved the utilization of a sling around the upper part of the arm around the bicep. It's a very tight sling and when taking the weapon from your shoulder or changing position its quite easy to flag your neighbor if you're not careful. I'm happy to say this is the only time on the range that I've had a weapon loaded or not pointed at me. Tell me this - if you're instructing a class and someone on the range less than 10 feet from you points their weapon which you know is loaded at you and your other students, what are you going to do? Yelling would be great if they were smart enough to understand their mistake (also didn't work in this case) or if the shooter could hear past the 49 other positions on the line firing still yanking the trigger. Right, wrong or indifferent, it was a reaction on my part. Unfortunately for him the lieutenant was still attached by a sling and was in the way. Mishaps happen at the range often enough, ND's happen more than often, and people get killed less than often because of them. It was my goal at that particular time to not allow that to happen. I'm not going to go through life second guessing my actions, I'll do what I feel is best when presented the choices and act accordingly. I don't want to live with regrets thinking I could have done something more.

When you gave your response you may have been under the impression we were firing handguns and standing in front of targets 15 feet away. That's just not the case. If I was standing behind a firing line of standing individuals with handguns would I have tackled the weapon or the shooter? No way, no how.

Looking back I can't think of a safer way I could have done it. If I were more than a couple feet from him, we were firing handguns, or we were civilians I doubt I'd have done anything other than walk quickly in the safest direction verbally berating him in a semi-respectful tone the entire time. It was pure reaction on my part, and if presented with the same situation and circumstances I have no doubt it would turn out the same. If anyone would like to backseat it and say they would do it differently, great have at it. Hopefully it'll never happen to anyone here and we all go home safe at the end of the day.

[cmike]

guess they weren't that experienced huh.
tackle me or my gun your bound to get freaking surprise

In 15 years of teaching i have never tackled a student or idiot at another range.. either MIL/LEO/ or armed citizens at classes or ranges

there are better ways to handle it, your way would have gotten me a lot of money and you a trip to jail after the hospital or morgue
I think you are taking it too literally.

[RSF]

I think you are taking it too literally.


Of course i was.. for reason, Now we have the rest of the story


I can agree and hear what he says and understand it better than is first post about the situation...

[fbuckner]

Grab my gun, I take that as a life threatening attack and the person doing it would be likely to get a knife or my BUG then again i wouldn't be muzzling anyone.,

Ive grabbed a few guns and It wasnt a life threatening encounter on my part. I grabbed it as a safety measure to protect myself and other students.
I would do the same to you if I thought you were presenting danger to me. Now tackling a student I wouldnt do but if USMCSGT were doing it in his duty I doubt anyone would even bat an eye if it were in commission of his Job as a SGT. If someone wants to take me to court for grabbing their gun have at it. I give a general warning for safety violations once and one time only. I recall a class we had out here with K/M there was a couple he was a loud mouth that K had to call the guy who sent him to us and see if he was for real. The woman in the couple was an army brat that I used pretty good force on because she kept muzzling people. I so wanted to break her hand because her skull was so darn thick.

[paddy]

I seem to remember an instructor tell be that he would shoot me if I didn't keep the gun pointed down range an accidentally swept my gun past him.

I didn't actually do it, it was a warning on what action would be taken if that kind of mistake happened

I think his name was Ralph.

Nobody here by that name. ;-)




Sorry for the family and friends and this horrible accident.

Many things we use can be fatal if used incorrectly.
Ladders, electricity, cars, guns even buckets of water.
Do your best to be safe.

[gryphon]

Holy crap, what a bad way to do weak hand draw from strong side. Especially with noobs, although the deceased was not a noob. Never point the muzzle anywhere near you, or even have it against your body like that. Thunder Ranch does not teach this way. This guy was a LEO on dispatch duty?

(Sorry for the necro post. Just noticed the date).

[ptwoody1]

your right, pistols with manual safteys are MORE dangerous than guns without. :clap:
I was hung up on that, manual safety thing for awhile...but now I own a Glock 36. That is sad though..

[Tom Fineis]

Holy crap, what a bad way to do weak hand draw from strong side. Especially with noobs, although the deceased was not a noob. Never point the muzzle anywhere near you, or even have it against your body like that. Thunder Ranch does not teach this way. This guy was a LEO on dispatch duty?

(Sorry for the necro post. Just noticed the date).

What method do you prefer for a weak hand draw?

[RSF]

Oh boy here we go again

[Intl1911]

A friend of mine who is also an instructor just took a CPL class. The instructor of the class left the students (as in walked off the range for a minute) with guns that were supposed to be empty for them to use in the class.....he chamber checked his and there was a round in the chamber and another round in the mag.

Teachers please be careful.

It's too bad that a student shooting themselves in a class happeneds all too often.

[THEJUICE9269]

Did they really need or have to be practicing with loaded weapons this early on? You can still pull the trigger for your initial shot even without any ammo? When will people learn ammo and loaded weapons aren't always needed particularly for initial practice...

[Leader]

OP 3/10/11?

[Roundballer]

Just more "spillage" from the "Marketplace", a couple of ads for......

[XDM 40 cal]

:protest: OK who dusted this off?:togo:

[durus5995]

:protest: OK who dusted this off?:togo:

I dont know the newest member of my ignore list.

[TangoDown3727]

I'd much prefer any of these offhand techniques to that chest manipulation business. (RIP Paul):
iCIKHOcGLPo

[emkrysiak]

tragic

[cableman22b]

Sad