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Knimrod
10-24-2005, 11:11 PM
State considers change to self-defense statute
Bills would allow homeowners to use deadly force

By SHANNON MURPHY
Port Huron Times Herald

Several years ago, William "Dick" Turner and his wife came home to find people robbing their Kimball Township home.

The thieves stole several guns and were going through jewelry when the Turners interrupted them, he said. The robbers ran out the back door.

"I felt violated," Turner, 73, said. "My wife still doesn't feel safe at home alone."

Since then, Turner has taught his family how to load guns in the home in case they need to protect themselves.

Legislation introduced in the state House would allow residents who feel they are being threatened to use force against an intruder without facing criminal or civil prosecution.

Reaction to the proposed law is mixed.

The legislation, introduced by state Reps. Tom Casperon, R-Escanaba, and Rick Jones, R-Grand Ledge, will allow a resident to use whatever force they feel necessary, including deadly force, if they feel threatened while someone is committing a crime. The legislation is not clear what constitutes "being threatened." It is in committee in the House.

The proposed legislation is similar to a Florida law, which took effect Oct. 1, that gives residents the right to defend themselves in public places.

Under Michigan's present law, people being attacked must first retreat before responding.

"I wouldn't run away, it's my house," Turner said. "If I could get to a gun, I would protect myself or my wife."

Critics of the legislation said the bills allow people to take the law too freely into their own hands.

"We don't have the death sentence in Michigan, and police can't kill someone on sight, but we are going to empower the public to do that?" said Carolynn Jarvis, executive director of the Michigan Partnership to Prevent Gun Violence.

Local police aren't worried gun violence will increase.

"People have a right to protect themselves," Port Huron Police Maj. James Carmody said. "I don't think this will change anything."

'Make my day'
Michigan is one of several states considering such legislation.

Florida's measure allows residents the right to defend themselves in public spaces, including on the street or in places of business. The Michigan legislation specifies only homes and vehicles.

Colorado has had a homeowner's protection act in place since 1985. The law is nicknamed the "Make My Day" law from the famous scene in the 1983 Clint Eastwood film Sudden Impact.

Jarvis worries this law will teach people to use weapons to solve problems.

"That's very problematic for our society," she said.

Jarvis also is concerned people will take the law to extreme measures, such as shooting someone who is stealing a bicycle.

"There are so many things about this law that don't make sense," she said.

Police said they don't expect this law to change much.

"It really doesn't give homeowners any more rights than they do now, it just clarifies the retreat clause," said Lt. Robert Yorke of the Michigan State Police Richmond post. "It clarifies the right to self-defense."

Yorke said the uproar about the bill is similar to when Michigan passed its concealed-weapon law and critics envisioned a "Wild West" scenario with people shooting each other on the street. Gun violence has not increased because of it, officials said.

"You haven't seen (any increase)," Yorke said. "This is the same thing. It's not going to cause anyone to buy a gun, or lay in wait for someone to break in."

Police officials' main concern is people will defend themselves with force rather than trying to get help.

"I would hope you would lock yourself in a bedroom or bathroom and get on the phone and call police rather than shoot," St. Clair County Sheriff Sgt. Jerry Bassett said.

Better protection
Some local gun owners said the legislation won't do much harm.

"I don't think it will be a problem," said Linda Haack, 46, of Capac. "Anyone who is going to follow the law the wrong way will do it now."

Haack and other gun owners said if a person owns a weapon, they typically are trained in the right way to use it. People who have handguns have them for protection and are very careful with them, she said.

"It's our right to self-protection if (criminals) are in my home," she said.

Mick Motoligin, 59, of St. Clair Township said even without the law he would protect his family. Motoligin has a concealed-weapon permit and owns several guns.

"I don't think people will just shoot at anything (if the legislation passes)," he said. "But these thugs on the street they don't care who you are, and they'll shoot you if they have to."

Bob Scheonrock, 63, of Fort Gratiot has a concealed-weapon permit and owns several handguns. He thinks the legislation will decrease crime because a criminal doesn't want to face someone who could kill him.

Scheonrock said it's only fair homeowners can protect themselves.

"I don't want to shoot anybody," he said. "But I don't think I'd think long about protecting my family."

Link to story (http://www.thetimesherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051024/NEWS01/510240301/1002)

ShootinFool
10-26-2005, 11:48 AM
I thought the current law requires a person to retreat before using deadly force except when at home. Nobody should have to retreat from their own home. Otherwise, what would be the point of having a home?

G22
10-26-2005, 12:25 PM
I thought the current law requires a person to retreat before using deadly force except when at home. Nobody should have to retreat from their own home. Otherwise, what would be the point of having a home?

First, welcome to MGO ShootinFool.

As Michigan law is set up now, there is no duty to retreat when you are in your home IF you are being threatened by someone intent on killing you or doing great bodily harm. If they break in and try to steal something without threatening you in any way, your not supposed to shoot them!...

ShootinFool
10-26-2005, 01:02 PM
First, welcome to MGO ShootinFool.

As Michigan law is set up now, there is no duty to retreat when you are in your home IF you are being threatened by someone intent on killing you or doing great bodily harm. If they break in and try to steal something without threatening you in any way, your not supposed to shoot them!...

Thanks for the welcome. The problem is when someone kicks your door down, you don't know what their intentions are. Are you supposed to ask them politely what they would like to do? Kicking someone's door down is threatening in itself and if you wait until the person shows his gun or knife and says "I'm gonna kill you" before you defend yourself, you could end up real dead real quick. The criminal already has his testerone, adrenaline, and weapon pumped and he might even be on drugs that make him feel invincible and its probably too late for you to compete on his level. The law was written in the safety and comfort of a legislative office and might not seem realistic to the person who is surprised at home at an odd hour by the kind of person who is likely to do a B&E.

This problem is illustrated in the movie "Cape Fear" in 1962. Max Cady (Robert Mitchum) repeatedly terrorized the family of Sam Bowden (Gregory Peck). Cady never said "I'm gonna kill you" when he broke into the Bowden home, but it certainly seems like he intended to kill, rape, and do bodily harm. Criminals take advantage of the law-abiding nature of citizens and we need to do something about that. The criminal is not bound by any ethical considerations. He simply does whatever he wants until he is stopped.

G22
10-26-2005, 01:54 PM
Thanks for the welcome. The problem is when someone kicks your door down, you don't know what their intentions are. Are you supposed to ask them politely what they would like to do? Kicking someone's door down is threatening in itself and if you wait until the person shows his gun or knife and says "I'm gonna kill you" before you defend yourself, you could end up real dead real quick. The criminal already has his testerone, adrenaline, and weapon pumped and he might even be on drugs that make him feel invincible and its probably too late for you to compete on his level. The law was written in the safety and comfort of a legislative office and might not seem realistic to the person who is surprised at home at an odd hour by the kind of person who is likely to do a B&E.

This problem is illustrated in the movie "Cape Fear" in 1962. Max Cady (Robert Mitchum) repeatedly terrorized the family of Sam Bowden (Gregory Peck). Cady never said "I'm gonna kill you" when he broke into the Bowden home, but it certainly seems like he intended to kill, rape, and do bodily harm. Criminals take advantage of the law-abiding nature of citizens and we need to do something about that. The criminal is not bound by any ethical considerations. He simply does whatever he wants until he is stopped.

You are absolutely correct.
Unfortunately, Michigan law is what it is...for now.

There is a bill in committee right now to change this.
Call your reps and urge them to support this.

Here is the bills:

www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=2005-HB-5143

www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=2005-HB-5153


Send letters to members of the Judiciary committee thats where this bill is being sent. Also ask the Chairmen to get a hearing scheduled.

www.house.michigan.gov/committeeinfo.asp?lstcommittees=judiciary&submit=Go


CALL TODAY: Michigan House Judiciary Chairman William VanRegenmorter at 517-373-8900.

Craig
10-27-2005, 08:55 AM
I have a couple observations after reading the story. As I understand it, we have always had the right to protect ourselves in the public. The duty to retreat comes in only if you can do so safely without putting yourself or your family at additional risk of death or serious injury.

Divegeek
10-27-2005, 11:22 AM
I have a couple observations after reading the story. As I understand it, we have always had the right to protect ourselves in the public. The duty to retreat comes in only if you can do so safely without putting yourself or your family at additional risk of death or serious injury.


You, sir, are correct. The problem is what may be an obvious and safe route of escape to the prosecutor/jury with 20/20 hindsight may not be readily apparent to you when you are the victim of an attack, and could lead to criminal or civil charges after the fact.