My email exchange with a certain "activist" professor on campus

[AleksanderSuave]

So,
I am in the process of trying to find a sponsor for the students for concealed carry on campus at wayne, and have basically mass emailed people I believe would be good candidates.

The following is conversation between myself and an english professor. I am literally SHOCKED at the responses I have received from her. Ignorance and sexism rampant.


My original email:



Dear Respected Wayne State University Faculty Member,
My name is Alex Shikhman and I am a current student in my junior year at Wayne State University's School of Business. I am writing to you today because of your relation to your respective department. I am looking for a faculty/staff sponsor for the WSU chapter of Students for Concealed Carry(SCC). Currently, multiple states and universities are in the media because they are addressing this topic.

Most recently, on our Detroit/Ann Arbor NPR station, they ran a story about this cause.
It can be read at http://news.michiganradio.org/post/empty-holsters-campus-protest-gun-laws
and provides some insight and a brief background into our mission.

If this is something that does not interest you, or you are simply unable to commit the time to being involved with this student organization, then I thank you for your time reading this.

However, if this is something that you would like to get involved with, then I eagerly await your response.

Thanks Again.

-Alex Shikhman



This is the response I received last night:


Dear Alex Shikhman
Even if I had the time I would never under any circumstances give my support to anyone proposing concealed carry on campus. The mere idea is frightening. There are many unreasonable ideas being proposed these days, and this one ranks near the top of unreasonableness.
Where there are more guns there are more gun deaths, and more deaths in general, since guns are more efficient than other weapons for killing. Every honest study shows that.
I bet you cannot guarantee that all the gun carriers on campus are reasonable and only interested in the safety of everyone else. I bet you cannot guarantee that they are all mentally stable and not prone to impulsive action. I bet you cannot guarantee that none of them have a history of violence. And no, if someone starts shooting wildly, having someone else start shooting, even if in defense, will only put more bullets into the air, and make things more dangerous for all around.
I think you should reconsider this project of yours.
And no, it is not that "it does not interest" me or that I am "simply unable to commit the time to be involved:" I think yours is a pernicious, dangerous, unreasonable, thoughtless, careless proposal. Also murderous.
By the way: I am not against hunting; I do not want to separate people who have had gun training and who are neither criminals nor mentally unstable from their registered guns. But I think guns have their place, and schools, churches, shopping malls, subway stations, and other venues crowded with human beings are not places for guns.
In the hope that you and your chapter will actually think about what you are proposing with the rational parts of your brains,
I am,
Professor, English and Comparative Literature

I edited her name out to respect privacy.

at this point after reading that, I was genuinely pissed off. I went to the gym and worked out with my buddy to try to let off the steam, got home, yup, still angry.

So I decided to fire off an email her way.


Professor Wasserman,
I appreciate the reply and the honest effort involved with writing it. However, I cannot say that I agree at all to many of your points.

You stated:


"I bet you cannot guarantee that all the gun carriers on campus are reasonable and only interested in the safety of everyone else. I bet you cannot guarantee that they are all mentally stable and not prone to impulsive action. I bet you cannot guarantee that none of them have a history of violence. And no, if someone starts shooting wildly, having someone else start shooting, even if in defense, will only put more bullets into the air, and make things more dangerous for all around.
I think you should reconsider this project of yours."

Yet, I am very adamant about arguing all of those points in detail, if given the opportunity. I can guarantee you that when suffrage for all Americans was proposed as an idea, rather than just to men, the same arguments were used, and in the same tone as well.

This is why I love living here. The fact that we have certain unalienable rights, and when an organization unjustly denies us those rights, it is no longer a privileged opportunity, but a DUTY to protest their action until our rights are once again ours.

Clearly, since Michigan is a "shall issue" state, they have rationally come to the conclusion that we live in a society where mere police presence is simply not enough to deter criminals. The reality is that crime exists, and we do not live in a perfect world. I can say that I speak for a majority of us CPL holders when I say that we wish to NEVER have to use deadly force. Yet, hoping for the best and preparing for the worst is the strategy that keeps most of us alive.

If you still disagree with this reality, please read this article as a quick reminder as to exactly how "safe" the WSU campus really is.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/26011433/detail.html

Regardless, I respect your opinion to oppose my personal and my organization's views, as it is a freedom given to all of us by the very amendments that we fight to protect. However, the very same freedom is granted to us in arming and protecting ourselves.

The fact you mention that the idea is frightening to you would suggest to me that you would should re-familiarize yourself with the process required to obtain a gun, and the license to carry it as well. It is not cheap, nor is it easy, and realistically would not encourage any more guns on campus than most of people believe to be. However, those of us who are already allowed to carry everywhere else would be allowed to continue to enforce our given right in a setting where it is most necessary.

I have always wondered why women, including close friends of my own, have been the strongest opposition to concealed weapons, yet stand to benefit the most from them. Or is it that the statistics in the WSU crime reports are compiled irrationally as well?

To say that guns are dangerous is the equivalent of saying that alcohol and smoking is dangerous. Yet cigarettes and drunk drivers kill exponentially more every year then legally-permitted owners of firearms. So why have we not banned smoking and alcohol on campus yet? Maybe we should ban automobiles on campus as well? Since our student age demographic has the highest rate of fatality in car accidents as well.

Irrational thinking is to fear something that is not understood, and to imply that correlation means causation. Rational thinking on the other hand is denying the biased views pushed upon those screaming at you and trying to pick apart your cause, brick by brick, with straw man arguments and fallacies. Rational thinking is personally educating yourself on something that is at the very core of being an American, and ensuring personal safety and the safety of those in your surroundings.

So please excuse the length of my response, but I am genuinely offended by your claim that supporting this cause is irrational, and do wish that in the future you would reconsider your position on the subject matter.

If you would like to discuss any of this, I welcome a debate, or a tasteful conversation.
Us gun-carrying members of society are not the uneducated, john-wayne, aggressive meat-heads that you paint us out to be.

-Alex Shikhman

I was as polite as possible, yet managed to offend this woman. :headinj:

this is her next response


Dear Mr. Shikhman
In fact, you cannot guarantee any of those things I mentioned, which is why you resort to an analogy with a completely different matter--suffrage.
And speaking of trust in women: maybe you should listen to all those women who oppose concealed weapons, assume they are rational, consider their arguments without getting offended, and at least ask yourself whether you are not closer than you think to the men who were against suffrage because they did not think that women could reason and because they thought men knew best what was best for women.
Every result of every questionnaire to law enforcement personnel I have ever read or heard of shows that those who are professionally engaged in keeping public safety are also very much against the proliferation of firearms.
Yes, drivers cause accidents (which is why there is drivers' education, drivers' licenses are issued and revoked, there is an age requirement, teenagers have to be chaperoned for a while as they drive, cars and licenses are registered, and so on); yes, drinking can be dangerous. But what you suggest is simply adding another layer of danger to the streets. I don't see the logic.
Still hoping for the best,

Professor, English and Comparative Literature

at this point, Im not sure if I should even respond anymore. any advice?

[Buzzcat]

No point in banging your head against a wall. I'd move on for now and continue your search for a sponsor. Once that's completed and the group is "official", you can reengage her if you desire to do so.

And to add, you'll probably find much of the same opinion in most of the English Department and other Liberal Arts departments as well.

Suggestion: Maybe you'd have better luck talking to the profs in the Criminal Justice department. I think they'd be a little more informed on the subject and perhaps willing to participate.

[Made_in_Michigan]

You could always create a form for her to fill out so that when you eventually do succeed and CC is allowed on campus, she can voluntarily opt out of being protected by the use of evil firearms.

[Jerbear1098]

Alex, watch yourself. These irrational people may find a way to jam you up and throw you out. They will somehow try to connect you to the wacko in Arizona and make your time there hell. I'd stop all conversation with her and move on to someone else they may be more receptive. Good luck in your endeavor, be careful. :salute:

JMHO...

[Big_Jim]

Alex, watch yourself. These irrational people may find a way to jam you up and throw you out. They will somehow try to connect you to the wacko in Arizona and make your time there hell. I'd stop all conversation with her and move on to someone else they may be more receptive. Good luck in your endeavor, be careful. :salute:

JMHO...


+1



Send her a nice thank you note for her time and input and move on to someone who's not an idiot.

[cmike]

I doubt very much that there is anything that you can say that will change her opinion.

That said, some arguements that you could use is that if someone wants to do harm with a gun they don't care what guns law are. They will bring a gun and use it. The only person who can stop this person is someone else with a gun at the same place.

The people who will use it responsiblity, if it came down to it, are those that abide by the laws, and go through the process of getting a CPL.

Also you can use her arguements against her, such as:

Can you guarantee that someone with a gun (without a cpl) won't shoot up the cafeteria?

Can you guarantee that someone with a gun (without a cpl) won't go on a shooting spree on the campus?

Can you guarantee that someone with a a gun (without a cpl) won't go crazy and shoot in your class?

And if this happens who will stop them? The only person who could stop them is someone else in the same location who has a gun. The police will come to write the report afterwards.

Guns are used about 2.5 million times in America for self defense.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html

If you really want to be bold invite her to the range. If she becomes familiar with a gun she may not be so afraid of it.

My gut feeling is that you won't win with her no matter what you say. However, maybe you can show her that you aren't a kook.

[BWHaas]

Alex, perhaps the more logical professors would be of a more inviting opinion. I am having some luck with engineering and science department faculty than any of the other departments because they are more capable of throwing emotions out and look at things from a logical perspective which is more where we are coming from.

Email or PM me if you need anything

[jeffegg2]

Well you did not answer to any of her quips...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet you cannot guarantee that all the gun carriers on campus are reasonable and only interested in the safety of everyone else. I bet you cannot guarantee that they are all mentally stable and not prone to impulsive action. I bet you cannot guarantee that none of them have a history of violence. And no, if someone starts shooting wildly, having someone else start shooting, even if in defense, will only put more bullets into the air, and make things more dangerous for all around.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

All gun carriers are reasonable? Well, stastically yes, CPL carriers are reasonable
and friendly. I am reasonable, just do it my way! (joke).

Mentally stable? Well, that is checked by the gun board. So yes, mental stability is there,
of course you never know when someone "May" become ill.

Shooting wildly and hitting passer-by's, or innocent bystander? CPL holders do
have to pass a Gun safety course that addresses the target and what may
be behind it, as well as the legal ramifications of shooting an innocent even
by mistake.

CPL holders are trained that carrying a firearm is a great responcibility, and
using such a weapon is a "last resort only" do preserve your life or the lives
of innocents around you.:hardhat:

[BOSS302]

I laughed when I started reading your post. From my experience at WSU the female English profs were the most outspoken liberals on campus. I suspect you'd have better luck in engineering or one of the physical science departments. Maybe history or math (if you can find a math prof there that is actually from the USA).

Good luck.

[Ruger]

at this point, Im not sure if I should even respond anymore. any advice?

Don't try to outwit her! Just maneuver around her! She's stuck in reverse with no hope to move forward.
To tell ya the truth I don't know but a few college facility, professors, Ph.D's and their all very opinionated and not very open to the idea of an armed society.

You gave it your best shot......She'll likely trip down the steps sooner or late as shes looking down at someone over her up turned nose.

:thumbup:

[zigziggityzoo]

Fact: 94% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes. (17th Annual National Survey of Police Chiefs & Sheriffs, National Association of Chiefs of Police, 2005)

Fact: The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: `... courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.' Well, except for politicians whom receive taxpayer- financed bodyguards.

Fact: 95% of the time police arrive too late to prevent a crime or arrest the suspect. ("This is 911 ... please hold", Witkin, Gordon, Guttman, Monika and Lenzy, Tracy. U.S. News & World Report, June 17, 1998)

Fact: People with concealed carry permits are:
5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public
("An Analysis of the Arrest Rate of Texas Concealed Carry Handgun License Holders as Compared to the Arrest Rate of the Entire Texas Population", William E. Sturdevant, PE, September 11, 1999)

Fact: In Florida, a state that has allowed concealed carry since late 1987, you are twice as likely to be attacked by an alligator as by a person with a concealed carry permit.(Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report, Florida Department of State, 1998 – Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission, December 1998)

Fact: 66% of police chiefs believe that citizens carrying concealed firearms reduce rates of violent crime.(National Association of Chiefs of Police, 17th Annual National Survey of Police Chiefs & Sheriffs, 2005)

Fact: About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000.And that is with citizens using guns to prevent crimes almost 2,500,000 times every year. ( Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws, C. Cramer, and D. Kopel, Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994)

[Johnny HotFoot]

I'm working on my MA in Ed. at Wayne State right now and hate walking on campus 'naked' .... how long have you been looking for a sponsor?

[Johnny HotFoot]

maybe cross reference the staff names with CPL holders, approach them, ask them if they are concealing on campus, you know they are, most will poobably deny it, first one admitsthey pack heat ask that prof to sponsor the group???

[zigziggityzoo]

maybe cross reference the staff names with CPL holders, approach them, ask them if they are concealing on campus, you know they are, most will poobably deny it, first one admitsthey pack heat ask that prof to sponsor the group???

By law, no such list is allowed to be made public.

[Zoolander]

Well, you're probably wasting your time so, my best advice would be to write her a letter something along the lines of "After speaking with my mom and a bunch of other women, I see you're correct and have decided not to pursue this. Thanks so much for your insight" basically to get her to forget about it. Now that she knows she may try and round people up to support her side of the thing before you get your side organized.

If on the other hand you want to have some fun, you could use her arguments to advocated for censorship on campus. Can she guarantee that someone won't use free speech to spread hatred? Can she guarantee that everyone who's speaking is reasonable and rational? And if someone starts shouting something, someone else shouting will just throw fuel on the fire...etc. etc.

I honestly think though that option A is the better choice. Throw her off the scent some how until you get your ducks in a row.

[AleksanderSuave]

ROFL@after speaking with my mom.

that made me giggle.

I think I'll send her some stats listed here and kindly thank her for her time.


to the poster who asked how long Ive been looking for a sponsor, atleast a week now. I have mass emailed the english, econ, criminal justice, and political science departments. All of their staff.

I guess I will move on and try engineering, I tried to make contact with a professor whos actually teaching my project management class and Im on good terms with and he wants to know more info so hopefully thats a step in the right direction.

I hate people like this woman. She probably lives at home with 9 cats, doesnt know how to cook, nor shave her ****ing armpits.

and thats me being polite.

[7.62 Nato]

I bet you cannot guarantee that all the Professors on campus are reasonable and interested in the safety of everyone else. I bet you cannot guarantee that they are all mentally stable and not prone to impulsive action. I bet you cannot guarantee that none of them have a history of violence.

[CrimDoc]

Here's what bothers me about this:

If someone is a Liberal and they oppose concealed carry on campus ... fine. I can certainly "agree to disagree" with people.

But when people start making stuff up, and then pass this made up stuff off as "facts", especially when they carry the title "Professor" that's just plain wrong. It borders on academic dishonesty. For instance, she writes:

"Where there are more guns there are more gun deaths, and more deaths in general, since guns are more efficient than other weapons for killing. Every honest study shows that." - Wrong ... completely untrue.

"Every result of every questionnaire to law enforcement personnel I have ever read or heard of shows that those who are professionally engaged in keeping public safety are also very much against the proliferation of firearms." - Again, wrong ... completely untrue.

I don't want to interject myself into your "fight" unless I'm invited ... but as Faculty Advisor to the GVSU Chapter of SCC, I'd be happy to write a reply in support if you'd like me to.

[Wolvee]

ROFL

This Prof is exactly the kind of person I was talking about in our correspondence. They can really find a way to hurt you and your name. Good luck, if you have any further communica with her make sure everything is as clear as possible, civil and submisive. All it takes is a forwarded email out of context and you're out of the school faster than DPG can ramble prepositions.

Do not use key words like gun, shoot or kill. I have been dealing with Profs nearly year round for the last 6 years and all it takes is a keystroke. Remember their agenda works against you and what you stand for.

Sorry to be doom and gloom.

[donaldj]

You mighty try to fight her on her own turf. English and Comparative Literature.

Most of our founding fathers favored freedom of arms, and much early American patriotic literature has these freedoms ensconced as virtues of a free people.

Look at the transformation of the English from a "kingdom" to a more individual-centric form of government.

Use her own literature against her.

[cantpickone]

When you initially asked if she was interested in supporting your goal of allowing concealed carry on campus and she responded that she was adamantly opposed to the idea, why you would continue a dialog with her and be upset about it is beyond my understanding.

[mikeb32]

I would certainly take "CrimDoc" up on his offer.

[Phelptwan]

Just an FYI, Wayne State is part of this... http://www.keepgunsoffcampus.org/list.html

[Johnny HotFoot]

When you initially asked if she was interested in supporting your goal of allowing concealed carry on campus and she responded that she was adamantly opposed to the idea, why you would continue a dialog with her and be upset about it is beyond my understanding.

agree, she started her 'rant' of a reply with these 9 words:
Even if I had the time I would never
why she continued on is kinds strange but she did.... after you got your reply you should have moved on to the next staff member instead of debating an issue with someone who is so backwards on their facts...

[Johnny HotFoot]

Just an FYI, Wayne State is part of this... http://www.keepgunsoffcampus.org/list.html


jeeesus! who signed on to THAT? The crime on campus is ever present; the shady obviously-not-students types have unfettered access to the campus and as good of a job as campus safety does they can't be every where at all times....


I would love a gun free campus.... just wall off the entire campus, send every single person through a metal detector to ensure they are disarmed and then I'll happily keep my pistol locked in my car, but until that day I'll stay pissed I am unarmed walking the campus knowing the BadGuys have their smokewagons ready to point at unarmed victims

God help us!

[jeffegg2]

Well I like the idea of keeping guns off of campus. It is a very good idea!! If you can guarentee that all guns would be kept off campus. :freak: That would take putting metal detectors on every
entrance, and a 30 food barbed wire fence around the entire campus with armed guards and sniffer dogs.

Since you cannot, I believe that we should be on equal footing with the bad guys, and have good guys with guns. The police are not there to stop you from being robbed, raped, or killed. They are there to observe, and then if they determine a crime is being committed to tag the body and take evidence to hopefully convict the assailent. Those of us with a living brain find that unacceptable, and wish to prevent the death, or rape of our selves and our families.

[who dat]

If you insist on carrying on with this person, Google "Gun control Myths and realities."

You'll find information you can give her from places she would respect just from their names:

Intellectual Take-Out and the Cato Institute are two.

[AleksanderSuave]

Here's what bothers me about this:

If someone is a Liberal and they oppose concealed carry on campus ... fine. I can certainly "agree to disagree" with people.

But when people start making stuff up, and then pass this made up stuff off as "facts", especially when they carry the title "Professor" that's just plain wrong. It borders on academic dishonesty. For instance, she writes:

"Where there are more guns there are more gun deaths, and more deaths in general, since guns are more efficient than other weapons for killing. Every honest study shows that." - Wrong ... completely untrue.

"Every result of every questionnaire to law enforcement personnel I have ever read or heard of shows that those who are professionally engaged in keeping public safety are also very much against the proliferation of firearms." - Again, wrong ... completely untrue.

I don't want to interject myself into your "fight" unless I'm invited ... but as Faculty Advisor to the GVSU Chapter of SCC, I'd be happy to write a reply in support if you'd like me to.

At this point, I have no problem with you doing so,
however, I am very doubtful that it will do much good.

This person has made it very clear that she chose her position and stands behind it regardless of what is shown her.

She can be the witness of an armed robbery to her own family and still would oppose guns and CPLs.

When I worked my first ever real sales job, they used to joke about the segments of our customer base, but the joke was in fact quite accurate.

They would say that 60% of people we dealt with would buy from us no matter what. increases in price, whatever negative. Brand loyalty and service spoke for itself.

20% were on the fence, and required real work to convince.

and the remaining 20% would NEVER buy from us, regardless of how much money we threw their way, beat their current service provider's price in half, whatever. And this was true too.

any I would say that the stats against guns would be different, but regardless, she falls into the category that will never see "the light", and its scary to think, because that type of mentality is a threat to the safety of both herself and of others.

[oldskoolford427]

I doubt very much that there is anything that you can say that will change her opinion.

That said, some arguements that you could use is that if someone wants to do harm with a gun they don't care what guns law are. They will bring a gun and use it. The only person who can stop this person is someone else with a gun at the same place.

The people who will use it responsiblity, if it came down to it, are those that abide by the laws, and go through the process of getting a CPL.

Also you can use her arguements against her, such as:

Can you guarantee that someone with a gun (without a cpl) won't shoot up the cafeteria?

Can you guarantee that someone with a gun (without a cpl) won't go on a shooting spree on the campus?

Can you guarantee that someone with a a gun (without a cpl) won't go crazy and shoot in your class?

And if this happens who will stop them? The only person who could stop them is someone else in the same location who has a gun. The police will come to write the report afterwards.

Guns are used about 2.5 million times in America for self defense.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html

If you really want to be bold invite her to the range. If she becomes familiar with a gun she may not be so afraid of it.

My gut feeling is that you won't win with her no matter what you say. However, maybe you can show her that you aren't a kook.

Spot on and would be a good reply!!! Libs never let the truth get in their way.

[AleksanderSuave]

This is my final response to her. thank you to all who have contributed, I have used some people's posts directly, unaltered, because I believe they have covered the subject matter directly and effectively. I intend this to be my last correspondence with her, I believe that closure was necessary and she DID need to read certain things before bloating her ego into thinking that she can easily demoralize someone with lies.



Professor Wasserman,
I think you may have misunderstood my last communication. I am not offended by the arguments of ALL women that oppose this. I was taken back by the fact that you would label something like this as irrational. That was offensive to me. Its the equivalent of labeling someone crazy because you do not understand them. However, I'd like for you to read a few things.

I'm not sure which surveys you have read, or where you found them, but your findings happen to be inaccurate.

Here are some sourced statistics that you can do background research on to verify, if you question their validity.


Fact: 94% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes. (17th Annual National Survey of Police Chiefs & Sheriffs, National Association of Chiefs of Police, 2005)

Fact: The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: `... courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.' Well, except for politicians whom receive taxpayer- financed bodyguards.

Fact: 95% of the time police arrive too late to prevent a crime or arrest the suspect. ("This is 911 ... please hold", Witkin, Gordon, Guttman, Monika and Lenzy, Tracy. U.S. News & World Report, June 17, 199

Fact: People with concealed carry permits are:
5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public
("An Analysis of the Arrest Rate of Texas Concealed Carry Handgun License Holders as Compared to the Arrest Rate of the Entire Texas Population", William E. Sturdevant, PE, September 11, 1999)

Fact: In Florida, a state that has allowed concealed carry since late 1987, you are twice as likely to be attacked by an alligator as by a person with a concealed carry permit.(Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report, Florida Department of State, 1998 – Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission, December 1999)

Fact: 66% of police chiefs believe that citizens carrying concealed firearms reduce rates of violent crime.(National Association of Chiefs of Police, 17th Annual National Survey of Police Chiefs & Sheriffs, 2005)

Fact: About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000.And that is with citizens using guns to prevent crimes almost 2,500,000 times every year. ( Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws, C. Cramer, and D. Kopel, Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994)

also, I think you fail to realize that this is not simply arming students. It involves professors as well. This is not a one-sided clause to the law. It applies to everyone.

Can you guarantee that someone with a gun (without a cpl) won't shoot up the cafeteria?

Can you guarantee that someone with a gun (without a cpl) won't go on a shooting spree on the campus?

Can you guarantee that someone with a a gun (without a cpl) won't go crazy and shoot in your class?

And if this happens who will stop them? The only person who could stop them is someone else in the same location who has a gun. The police will come to write the report afterwards.

Guns are used about 2.5 million times in America for self defense.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html


If you are interested in educating yourself on hand guns and safety, I would gladly invite you to the range for professional instruction. Most people who are opposed to guns typically walk away from an experience like that having learned a lot about themselves and the topic of fire arms as well. You may undoubtedly learn that it is not for you, or you may learn the opposite. However, you will have done so on the grounds of first hand experience rather than believing one side or the other on arguments that have no relation until you try it first hand.

Also, here is even more statistics and common myths, a few that you have mentioned yourself, from a credible source as well.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4706

also, here is one shocking article I have found that hits alarmingly close to home.
http://www.media.wayne.edu/1998/12/11/suspect-surrenders-in-campus-shooting-president-expresses-grief-for-university-community

Am I saying that a student with a CPL could have changed the course of this event? No. But if the teacher or a student were armed in this event, I guarantee it would have had the possibility of being different.

further research on this article finds more details at:

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19981211&slug=2788425

It mentions that after the professor was shot and wounded, the shooter stopped to reload and shoot again. It was the second batch of shots that killed him. Is it not arguable that in this time someone who was armed could have done something? An empty gun is a useless gun and I guarantee that while he was trying to reload he was put at ease by the GUARANTEE that no one in the entire building with him was armed.

This and more is something you would understand the nature of if you educate yourself first hand with fire arms. You cannot "imagine" trying to reload a fire arm, it has to be done realistically in a controlled environment for you to truly understand the process involved and face the reality that IF someone HAD been armed during this, I would strongly argue that this exact moment would have been the opportunity to engage the threat and notably neutralize it, since he was at that point no longer functionally-armed, nor would he have been in the right state of mind or attention to monitor an entire class full of individuals and attempt to continue to carry out his sadistic plot at the same time.

I am not trying to disregard or insult your opinion on the subject in any way. I respect that you have the right to disagree with me just as I do with you, however, I would hope that before your form your opinion on the subject, you would at least try to look at research from both points of view, and develop a logical unbiased opinion. I have learned to do the same while studying at WSU.

Regardless,
Thank you for your time and I hope you enjoy your weekend.
-Alex Shikhman


and to those who have asked why I continued speaking to her after.
Simple. People like this believe that they have won every time you ignore them. Am I risking a lot in fighting with her? Yes. But I strongly believe in this cause and if I am able to atleast SLIGHTLY alter her train of thought, then I believe that to be a strong victory because I know that a lot of the opposition will be just as tough, if not tougher, than this professor, and in higher positions as well.

[Jerbear1098]

Just make sure you have this post archived, if and when they take action against you. As said before, it's nothing to add or remove words in an email and send it off to the powers that be.

Just remember, you may have opened a can of worms with this lady, that could cost you your education there.

Be careful and stay safe.

[zigziggityzoo]

Just make sure you have this post archived, if and when they take action against you. As said before, it's nothing to add or remove words in an email and send it off to the powers that be.

Just remember, you may have opened a can of worms with this lady, that could cost you your education there.

Be careful and stay safe.

A public institution expelling a student over what amounts to free speech (no matter how "Scary" the speech is) - would be torn to shreds in the court of public opinion.

But yeah, stranger things have happened. I don't see them wanting to be in the news over this though.

[Wolvee]

Just make sure you have this post archived, if and when they take action against you. As said before, it's nothing to add or remove words in an email and send it off to the powers that be.

Just remember, you may have opened a can of worms with this lady, that could cost you your education there.

Be careful and stay safe.

OU has been known to do it before. I am currently trying to find an alternative program myself. I don't really care for the school much. MOTT CC has better Profs and more organized programs, lol. Sorry to take this off track.

[oldskoolford427]

Fact: 94% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes. (17th Annual National Survey of Police Chiefs & Sheriffs, National Association of Chiefs of Police, 2005)

Fact: The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: `... courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.' Well, except for politicians whom receive taxpayer- financed bodyguards.

Fact: 95% of the time police arrive too late to prevent a crime or arrest the suspect. ("This is 911 ... please hold", Witkin, Gordon, Guttman, Monika and Lenzy, Tracy. U.S. News & World Report, June 17, 1998)

Fact: People with concealed carry permits are:
5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public
("An Analysis of the Arrest Rate of Texas Concealed Carry Handgun License Holders as Compared to the Arrest Rate of the Entire Texas Population", William E. Sturdevant, PE, September 11, 1999)

Fact: In Florida, a state that has allowed concealed carry since late 1987, you are twice as likely to be attacked by an alligator as by a person with a concealed carry permit.(Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report, Florida Department of State, 1998 – Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission, December 1998)

Fact: 66% of police chiefs believe that citizens carrying concealed firearms reduce rates of violent crime.(National Association of Chiefs of Police, 17th Annual National Survey of Police Chiefs & Sheriffs, 2005)

Fact: About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000.And that is with citizens using guns to prevent crimes almost 2,500,000 times every year. ( Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws, C. Cramer, and D. Kopel, Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994)

Great Stuff Zig Thanks

[cantpickone]

A public institution expelling a student over what amounts to free speech (no matter how "Scary" the speech is) - would be torn to shreds in the court of public opinion.

But yeah, stranger things have happened. I don't see them wanting to be in the news over this though.
As an Ann Arborite you should remember when the head man at the U of M was demonstrated against, called a racist and fired for cautioning to keep the academic standards high while figuring out how to attract more black students to apply to the University.
Leftists feel that only they have rights as they believe in their own moral superiority.

[Wolvee]

As an Ann Arborite you should remember when the head man at the U of M was demonstrated against, called a racist and fired for cautioning to keep the academic standards high while figuring out how to attract more black students to apply to the University.
Leftists feel that only they have rights as they believe in their own moral superiority.

another topic probably but Morality without Spirituality is the left in a nutshell.

[Ken1973]

This thread is a fantastic "How-To" on discussions with "anti" individuals. Thank you all for the input and to the OP for posting this up. Best of luck!

[zigziggityzoo]

As an Ann Arborite you should remember when the head man at the U of M was demonstrated against, called a racist and fired for cautioning to keep the academic standards high while figuring out how to attract more black students to apply to the University.
Leftists feel that only they have rights as they believe in their own moral superiority.

I've only lived here since 2004, and have no clue of what you're talking about here. If you have more information I'm happy to read.

[firespec35]

About 2 or 3 years back I worked with WSU police at an active shooter drill on campus at the bldg on woodward near warren that they just knocked down (it had the dominos pizza in it). I don't know if there was an official report with response times etc... that was released but maybe you can get it to show even if pd is fast on the response what damage can be done unchecked or prevented by a single cpl holder.
As an aside during the victim debrief (all students) it amazed me some of the things they complained about during their rescue. I remember several complained about rough handling even though they were being evaced before the shooter was neutralized. Also I remember 1 "special" individual that actually asked why there wasn't psychological support immediately upon exit of the bldg. She meant literally at the exit door. I wanted to bang my head against the table repeatedly after that one.

[cantpickone]

I've only lived here since 2004, and have no clue of what you're talking about here. If you have more information I'm happy to read.
I am referring to this man - former U of M President Lee C. Bollinger 1996-2001.
I don't know what you can find on record about him, but I distinctly remember that the U of M was baffled as to why not many black students applied to attend the U of M and they were attempting to devise ways of increasing numbers of blacks at the school.
Mr Bollinger did nothing more than urge during a meeting that whatever methods were undertaken to accomplish this, care should be taken to preserve the respect and reputation that having a degree from the U of M currently had and that this reputation not be compromised.
For this, he was accused of being a racist, and had massive demonstrations in the street against him demanding that he be fired.
He was essentially run out of town on a rail.
Every time I drive through Ann Arbor and see a student with a backpack step out in front of a moving car I am reminded of this mindset.

[AleksanderSuave]

About 2 or 3 years back I worked with WSU police at an active shooter drill on campus at the bldg on woodward near warren that they just knocked down (it had the dominos pizza in it). I don't know if there was an official report with response times etc... that was released but maybe you can get it to show even if pd is fast on the response what damage can be done unchecked or prevented by a single cpl holder.
As an aside during the victim debrief (all students) it amazed me some of the things they complained about during their rescue. I remember several complained about rough handling even though they were being evaced before the shooter was neutralized. Also I remember 1 "special" individual that actually asked why there wasn't psychological support immediately upon exit of the bldg. She meant literally at the exit door. I wanted to bang my head against the table repeatedly after that one.


were they expecting to be hugged upon exit? lol

[firespec35]

were they expecting to be hugged upon exit? lol
I don't know exactly what she wanted. One of the Lt's was running the debrief and my partner, me, and all the officers that came in off duty were hanging out off to the side listening. When she said that about psych support at the door, literally every uniformed person in the building including the police chief turned toward her and said "huh"???? The lt was very nice, explained it to a point she should have understood it. I mean these are college kids. They're supposed to be relatively smart, right? Sadly no, she just didn't get it. She really felt there should be a psychologist at the door.

[BWHaas]

I don't know exactly what she wanted. One of the Lt's was running the debrief and my partner, me, and all the officers that came in off duty were hanging out off to the side listening. When she said that about psych support at the door, literally every uniformed person in the building including the police chief turned toward her and said "huh"???? The lt was very nice, explained it to a point she should have understood it. I mean these are college kids. They're supposed to be relatively smart, right? Sadly no, she just didn't get it. She really felt there should be a psychologist at the door.
Unbelievable! The faculty and authorities at some of these places really have no clue what's going on outisde their very narrow slice of life! This makes me discount the very education they are providing.

[AleksanderSuave]

Wayne is definitely on my **** list man.

that psychological support ******** was funny at first, now I think about it and its scary to know that such idiots are eating up my tuition.

The gym has been missing the 50 pound dumbbell for over a month now. Im sure the money budgeted for it is being spent on psychological support.

[BWHaas]

Wayne is definitely on my **** list man.

that psychological support ******** was funny at first, now I think about it and its scary to know that such idiots are eating up my tuition.

The gym has been missing the 50 pound dumbbell for over a month now. Im sure the money budgeted for it is being spent on psychological support.
Hilarious, you are on to something there

[firespec35]

The sad part was it was a great drill and WSUPD has great tools at their disposal, some great cops, and train well to boot. They actually carry evac chairs in every scout car and there are 2 packs on the road at all times for forcible entry with bolt cutters, a halligan bar and a few other things. Sorry didn't mean to hijack your thread. I just didn't know if.you knew about the drill and or could get the report to show response times to make your case to some of the more fact minded faculty.

[AleksanderSuave]

The 50 pound dumbbell is a very sensitive issue to me, lol.

It sucks having to go from 45 to 60 with no in between at all, since they do not have a 55 either.

however, something else bothers me about this.

first, Firespec, do you work for wsu pd or detroit pd? I had a few questions, would love to ask u.

second.

tuition every semester at wayne includes the rec center and omnibus fee, both optional services but not optional to pay for. they total 100 dollars (25 for gym 75 for bus).

The student size at wayne (graduate + undergrad + all others) is over 40,000 from what I last heard. I used 40,000 as the base number to err on the short side.

that means that off gym and bus fees (both optional, services mind you), they make greater than 4,000,000/semester. Spring/summer is usually grouped as one semester, so that would mean $12,000,000 in just gym/bus fees, neither of which cost even 10% of that to operate. The bus seats about 10 people and literally does a lap around the campus perimeter. The gym hours arent even that late/early.

between 12 million a year, just off those 2 services alone, they cannot justify more training drills like the one mentioned or more campus cops?

[zigziggityzoo]

WSU's fall enrollment was 31,024 students across all fields of study, undergrad and grad.

And I don't know about WSU, but UofM's gym fees are not included with grad tuition, they must optionally pay for it on a monthly basis.

[AleksanderSuave]

sorry Zig,
Everywhere we go we're fed that its over 40,000 so Ive taken that number for face value.

on another note, a new response, this one took a few days, and is possibly the dumbest of the batch



Dear Mr. Shikhman
In response:
that policemen are not against people having firearms for self-defense and hunting does not mean they are in favor of concealed carry on campuses; in fact, every news story I have ever read on the matter has police speaking against guns on campuses and in other crowded places. The campus police at Wayne and at other Michigan universities have spoken out against the idea. And my guess is that big city police are more often against it than small town police.
Sure, police are not obliged to give all citizens 24/7 police-presence protection. What does that prove?
The statistics about how often people with concealed carry commit crimes come from Texas and Florida (which has that "shoot now ask questions later" law that police were against)--not clear how they arranged their numbers or how trustworthy those numbers and conclusions are.
Other statistics you quote come from the Cato institute, a most unreliable institution, that makes its numbers conform to its established convictions on any matter you care to mention.
You must be aware that the US has the highest mortality from firearms of any developed country, the highest gun ownership rates, and the loosest gun laws. I guess you can't see a correlation, right?
Students and professors at Wayne have spoken out against it--your way of exercising your rights seems to involve ramming them down other people's rights.
If you are really concerned about the safety of the general public, rather than proposing that everyone carry guns around campus, you should spend your energy on strengthening gun control laws and improving their enforcement, on closing the gun show loophole (a lot of the ammunition for the Mexican carnage comes from poorly controlled US gun availability, mostly in Texas and Arizona), and on enacting a ban on assault weapons (there is no reason on earth any civilian should have them; even their name says they are not for defense, but for attack) and large ammunition clips.
Did you notice that the Tucson shooter was brought down, not by anyone shooting him, but by someone tackling him? Several of the people present noted that if anyone else had started shooting, the number of casualties and/or fatalities would most likely have been higher. And did you also notice that with all his problems, the shooter could just walk into an ordinary store and buy himself an assault weapon and large clip? I bet he did not go out with the intention to kill a random little girl, but the weaponry he had was of the sort that made such random killings almost a certainty.
Finally, did you notice that even Jan Brewer of Arizona, of all people and places, vetoed a campus armament bill?
Best,


Im honestly tired of this woman. I think there's no getting through to some people at all.

[GPintheMitten]

sorry Zig,
Everywhere we go we're fed that its over 40,000 so Ive taken that number for face value.

on another note, a new response, this one took a few days, and is possibly the dumbest of the batch



Im honestly tired of this woman. I think there's no getting through to some people at all.

You're learning.

Focus your energy on people who are willing to help your cause. You don't need to convince everyone.

[zigziggityzoo]

Israel and Switzerland bot have higher gun ownership per capita, and less murders per capita (Both have 1/6th that of the USA).

Gun ownership correlation is not causation for murder.

As the professor continues the rant, the argument gets stupider and stupider.

"closing the gun show loophole" is a meaningless statement.
Most of the guns used in Mexican crime cartels are of the sort that are already illegal to obtain here in the States. Further, of those that WERE obtained from here in the states were those that the ATF purposefully allowed (though that's questionably legal, of course).
"assault weapon and large clip" - ignoring the misuse of terminology, arguing that one could have used a "worse" gun but didn't is an empty argument.
The weaponry the tuscon shooter had was of the same sort most people carry day-to-day, including officers. He had, wait for it, a Glock 9mm.
Finally, there are still states that allow concealed carry on campus, and with sizable institutions, as well.

[AleksanderSuave]

The arguments this person presents at this point are honestly ridiculous.

I read it and my thought was literally "how can someone be this stupid".

To say "that policemen are not against people having firearms for self-defense and hunting does not mean they are in favor of concealed carry on campuses;"

is the dumbest point ever.

Regardless of the fact that gun CONTROL laws would just steer the power towards criminals who obtain guns illegally, we should focus on gun control laws though.

I want to just beat her with a frying pan at this point.

[firespec35]

The 50 pound dumbbell is a very sensitive issue to me, lol.

It sucks having to go from 45 to 60 with no in between at all, since they do not have a 55 either.

however, something else bothers me about this.

first, Firespec, do you work for wsu pd or detroit pd? I had a few questions, would love to ask u.

second.

tuition every semester at wayne includes the rec center and omnibus fee, both optional services but not optional to pay for. they total 100 dollars (25 for gym 75 for bus).

The student size at wayne (graduate + undergrad + all others) is over 40,000 from what I last heard. I used 40,000 as the base number to err on the short side.

that means that off gym and bus fees (both optional, services mind you), they make greater than 4,000,000/semester. Spring/summer is usually grouped as one semester, so that would mean $12,000,000 in just gym/bus fees, neither of which cost even 10% of that to operate. The bus seats about 10 people and literally does a lap around the campus perimeter. The gym hours arent even that late/early.

between 12 million a year, just off those 2 services alone, they cannot justify more training drills like the one mentioned or more campus cops?
Actually I'm a paramedic. We work closely with WSUPD since we do the standbys for basketball, football, women's hockey and anything else training staff wants. We stood by for officer safety during the drill in case anyone got actually hurt. We are pretty close to a lot of the guys especially 1 lt that was part of the coordination so we were asked to stay for the pd debrief which was after the victim debrief. I will help you with anything I can ask away

[AleksanderSuave]

one of the guys who I contacted about it, who is an integral part of WSU PD,
said they are having a huge discussion on open carry and student concealed carry, Im dying to know whats being discussed lol.

[BWHaas]

Unless they are talking in board meetings or some other closed door meeting, you can always ask?

[cantpickone]

The arguments this person presents at this point are honestly ridiculous.

I read it and my thought was literally "how can someone be this stupid".

To say "that policemen are not against people having firearms for self-defense and hunting does not mean they are in favor of concealed carry on campuses;"

is the dumbest point ever.

Regardless of the fact that gun CONTROL laws would just steer the power towards criminals who obtain guns illegally, we should focus on gun control laws though.

I want to just beat her with a frying pan at this point.
I don't know what else you would expect. I have met several Wayne State teaching staff members in social situations and without exception have found them to be extreme in their leftist philosophy and constantly vocal about their hatred of anything smacking of Conservatism, Republicanism or personal responsibility.
I never try to change their opinion or argue with them. But I throw the occasional zinger out during their tirades that makes them look foolish.
They usually then go off on a tangent about how the honest Democrats are working for the people and the Republicans are working for the man.
So I ask them of the whereabouts of Kwame Kilpatrick, Monica Conyers,and the former Governor of Illinois. And I tell tell that If they are offering a choice of choosing between the Republicans and Democrats as the only option of choosing between good and evil that they are intellectually stunted.
And I tell them that I have no faith in politicians. Then they just write me off as an equally hated believer in a Supreme being.

[AleksanderSuave]

I ran into a guy at the gym who's taking a few of the same courses as me, and turns out he works for wsu. I openly asked him about being part of the group, asked if he's shot a gun, etc. So I invited him out to the range with me next weekend, may possibly have found a student sponsor.

man-date for the win? lmao.

[BWHaas]

I ran into a guy at the gym who's taking a few of the same courses as me, and turns out he works for wsu. I openly asked him about being part of the group, asked if he's shot a gun, etc. So I invited him out to the range with me next weekend, may possibly have found a student sponsor.

man-date for the win? lmao.
Hilarious. We do what we have to don't we?

[mhink]

Al, we have talked previously on facebook and MGO, i too am a student as well as an thlete at WSU and I may have a few suggestions as to a Faculty admin. for a chapter leader.... try to email Stephan White in the Criminal Justice department, he is an Ex detroit cop and one of the best profs I have had there. Also Rebecca Mahfouz was my communications prof and she is a gun owner. her class is the one I gave my concealed carry on campus speech to for my persuasive speech, and she was very receptive. Finally i dont know if coaches can be a rep or not but I can also talk to a couple of a coaches to see if they would be interested, let me know what you think!

[langenc]

Point out to her that carry, campus. is going on now on quite a few campusses and dont seem to be problems.

That is the same line of thinking that goes on in Chicago and infects the entire state of Illinois. "As we heard some years ago from Jennie-"there will be blood in the streets etc". Jennie did later say she was wrong-to her credit.

[TangoDown3727]

Alex, watch yourself. These irrational people may find a way to jam you up and throw you out. They will somehow try to connect you to the wacko in Arizona and make your time there hell. I'd stop all conversation with her and move on to someone else they may be more receptive. Good luck in your endeavor, be careful. :salute:

JMHO...

:yeahthat: You presented a very good, logical arguement and were met with nothing but Strawmen and Abusive ad hominem in her rebuttal which invalidates her position fully. I gotta agree with Jerbear, move on to someone else. It's not worth losing all the hard earned credits and money spent in obtaining them as well as harming your educational progress because of a deluded, self-rightious and highly uninformed moron. It is frightening indeed to know that there are imbeciles like this so-called professor "educating" (for lack of a better term) the leaders of the future.

[AleksanderSuave]

Tango,
I stopped responding to her emails long ago. I got tired of dealing with an adult that never left childhood.

[FGO]

Well written response...like most others have said, it probably won't do any good but I doubt it can make her opinion any more wrong on the subject...

I was startled when I read her comment "Every result of every questionnaire to law enforcement personnel I have ever read or heard of shows that those who are professionally engaged in keeping public safety are also very much against the proliferation of firearms."

As you pointed out with a couple of references, but I can verify with my many years in the LEO world, very few officers (mostly the higher levels that bow to politicial pressures) are anti-guns or anti-concealed carry...they know they get there after the fact most of the time and know they can't protect people from most violent crime and/or gun violence...

Good luck with your endeavor!!!

[matt48062]

I'm going to qualify my comments: I come from a family of hunters, I'm the son of a Marine and my brother is a police officer.

Like it or not, guns just make some people nervous... Both sides of the debate have plenty of stats to back up their position. Both sides adamantly defend the reliability of their quoted/published stats while condemning the bias in any contradicting study. Go figure, huh. There is a lot of money to be made in creating data bits.

You're not gonna change her opinion. Move on.

[michiganfan]

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only frustrates you and pisses off the pig.

[DRSpaulding]

Ask he to go BAAAAAAAAAAAAAA like the good little sheep she is! Eh, better yet, write a thank you letter, forget her and search elsewhere.

[7.62 Nato]

Ask her to go BAAAAAAAAAAAAAA like the good little sheep she is!
Well, I guess that would be better than telling her to squeal like a pig.







But not by much.

[HernJon]

Alex,

I am in my Junior Year @ WSU as well. The massive amount of e-mails i receive in my Wayne State e-mail with the title, "Special Crime Alert-Robbery Armed/Unarmed" is almost humorous. It seems as if we receive these e-mails about three times a week.

[AleksanderSuave]

Alex,

I am in my Junior Year @ WSU as well. The massive amount of e-mails i receive in my Wayne State e-mail with the title, "Special Crime Alert-Robbery Armed/Unarmed" is almost humorous. It seems as if we receive these e-mails about three times a week.


recently these emails are more active than ever

[DP425]

I myself am a college student... but I also have 12 years of military service; this whole college thing is still fairly new to me.

However, in my experience... it is always best to only commit to writing that which you can #1, easily defend; #2, will be understood as you intend it to be written by the VAST majority of potential readers. Also a noteworthy personal rule of mine- pick your fights wisely. As Sun Tuz said; Do not allow your enemy to choose when to fight, or where to fight, for who should make those decisions will surely win. In other words, there is a time and a place to make your arguments and points- these must be carefully selected to ensure your advisory has no recourse. Email is almost never the venue for such actions.

The only way to win this type of fight is in a public forum with VALID statistics, and a crippling amount of them. I would have ignored the first response; you shouldn't have even given her grounds to make an argument. All that does is allow her to get into your head, allow her to know she's under your skin; owns real-estate in your mind. But at this point your best bet would be to simply respond "Thank you for replying and expressing your opinion, but I would consider this conversation to be pointless discourse. Have a nice day."

Teachers are likely the hardest group to convince; their education revolves around certain notions... I'm sure you've noticed this yourself. Her opinions are exactly the ideas most teachers work to push into their students. You could say she is fully indoctrinated. YOU won't be convincing her of anything shy of personally killing her rapist as he's slicing her neck. I suggest you direct your attention to those moldable minds around you; work to counter the bias information they receive from academia.