i always knew this person was going to hurt himself

[Dabears!]

zYvAxLX6OzE


:stooges: :stooges: :stooges: :stooges: :stooges:

[donald150]

NO WAY, NOT ANOTHER SERPA :score:

[ChaneyD]

Where was Serpa mentioned?

[RSF]

it was the holster he held up second that he was using

[Dabears!]

Where was Serpa mentioned?
it was in the end

he pushed the serpas release with a bent finger instead of keeping it straight.

kaboom.

[dougwg]

That just happened!

[dougwg]

The Serpa sets up/makes it easy for the stupid human to F#$%UP.

It's as simple as that, but you serpa lovers just don't understand a clue when you see it.

[NorthWhiteWolf]

I like how he said he called his parents first

[pgaplayerless]

The Serpa sets up/makes it easy for the stupid human to F#$%UP.

It's as simple as that, but you serpa lovers just don't understand a clue when you see it.

agreed. All it takes it one fast draw and poor muscle timing.

Of course most SERPA users draw like old lady going to church so they dont get to experience it. Hopefully not till it's too late.

[mechredd]

That's why I don't like serpas.

[miked]

That's why I don't like serpas.


+1

[tdbrown1969]

I don't see how the Serpa is to blame.Before anyone questions my loyalty to Serpa,I never owned one,held one or even seen one in person.Ultimatley his bugger hook pushed the bang switch before he was on target and wah-laa hole in the leg,it was him and his timeing that caused this ND,not his equipment.td

PS never been a plastic holster kind of guy,I like a good leather holster myself

[pgaplayerless]

I don't see how the Serpa is to blame.Before anyone questions my loyalty to Serpa,I never owned one,held one or even seen one in person.Ultimatley his bugger hook pushed the bang switch before he was on target and wah-laa hole in the leg,it was him and his timeing that caused this ND,not his equipment.td

PS never been a plastic holster kind of guy,I like a good leather holster myself


you are required to use the same muscle movement using the same muscle groups it takes to pull the trigger to unlock the weapon from the holster within milliseconds of each other. Getting it just slightly off means you inadvertently will end up pulling the trigger before even knowing what is going on.

[dougwg]

I don't see how the Serpa is to blame.Before anyone questions my loyalty to Serpa,I never owned one,held one or even seen one in person.Ultimatley his bugger hook pushed the bang switch before he was on target and wah-laa hole in the leg,it was him and his timeing that caused this ND,not his equipment.td

PS never been a plastic holster kind of guy,I like a good leather holster myself


The Serpa sets up/makes it easy for the stupid human to F#$%UP.

It's as simple as that, but you serpa lovers just don't understand a clue when you see it.


you are required to use the same muscle movement using the same muscle groups it takes to pull the trigger to unlock the weapon from the holster within milliseconds of each other. Getting it just slightly off means you inadvertently will end up pulling the trigger before even knowing what is going on.
.....

[tdbrown1969]

.....

Actually I did read the thread and I fail to see how anyone can take what happened and blame anything or anyone but him.Did the Serpa cause the gun to discharge or was it his finger pulling the trigger?I am not informed about these holsters and how they work.I do see alot of negative comments towards them.But to blame the holster for a ND,well we may as well go back and let people sue firearm manufactures when a gun they build is used to harm,maim or kill a person leagally or illegally.This guy pulled the trigger before his pistol was on target,wither caused by timing o0r even being unfamiliar with the equipment he was using.In the end it is on him,not Kimber,not the bullet that went through his leg and not the holster

[RifleGuy]

<snip>I fail to see how anyone can take what happened and blame anything or anyone but him.Did the Serpa cause the gun to discharge or was it his finger pulling the trigger?I am not informed about these holsters and how they work.I do see alot of negative comments towards them.But to blame the holster for a ND,<snip>.This guy pulled the trigger before his pistol was on target,wither caused by timing o0r even being unfamiliar with the equipment he was using.In the end it is on him,not Kimber,not the bullet that went through his leg and not the holster
No one is blaming the holster, BUT the design of the holster facilitates a negligent discharge by the user. The design is flawed, and seriously so. The design of the holster lends itself to the premature actuation of the trigger. It is still the primary responsibility of the user to correctly use the holster, but the flaws make the correct usage rather difficult.

[dougwg]

You still don't get it...

Yes, it's his fault but the serpa helped....get it?

The serpa helps people shoot themselves...get it?

During stressful situations people do not "lightly depress buttons", they push HARD and when humans push hard with their index finger, they curl it inward and while doing this with a serpa and a gun the finger NATURALLY goes into the trigger guard and the gun goes bang.

get it?

Yes, it's his fault for pulling the trigger, it's his fault for pushing hard, it's his fault for buying a serpa.

[tdbrown1969]

As I said I am unfamiliar with this type of holster.After watching a few videos I can see what you are saying now about the holster lending to the discharge.Looks like when you press the button to release the pistol from the holster your finger ends up right in line with the trigger.Press a little to hard,timeing off a split second or as stated above put all this into a life and death situation and bad things will happen.

[5alarm435]

I would have been impressed if he'd have put a couple rounds in the bad guy too. It's not everyday you get the chance to practice a real life scenario that starts off with you putting a round into your leg.

[dougwg]

As I said I am unfamiliar with this type of holster.After watching a few videos I can see what you are saying now about the holster lending to the discharge.Looks like when you press the button to release the pistol from the holster your finger ends up right in line with the trigger.Press a little to hard,timeing off a split second or as stated above put all this into a life and death situation and bad things will happen.
NOW YOU GOT IT! :cheers:

[dougwg]

I would have been impressed if he'd have put a couple rounds in the bad guy too. It's not everyday you get the chance to practice a real life scenario that starts off with you putting a round into your leg.
Win!:-P

[Will-IB-Ready]

I would have been impressed if he'd have put a couple rounds in the bad guy too. It's not everyday you get the chance to practice a real life scenario that starts off with you putting a round into your leg.
:lolup:

[ChaneyD]

The Serpa sets up/makes it easy for the stupid human to F#$%UP.

It's as simple as that, but you serpa lovers just don't understand a clue when you see it.

I have a serpa (use it on occasion for woods walking) and I've been trying to duplicate what he did for the past hour and can't duplicate it. Maybe I'm not understanding what he did. When pulling firearm, trigger finger is extended, push button, draw weapon, engage trigger with finger. How do you engage trigger AND button at the same time?

[Quantum007]

nevermind, it was a serpa....oops

[thatguy423]

That's gonna leave a mark..

[1wrx7]

I would have been impressed if he'd have put a couple rounds in the bad guy too. It's not everyday you get the chance to practice a real life scenario that starts off with you putting a round into your leg.


I was thinking the same thing... granted my sense of humor can be a little twisted. I give this guy credit for posting the video though. Most people don't want to show to the world what can be described as stupidity on their part:togo:

[aresbykes]

I have a serpa (use it on occasion for woods walking) and I've been trying to duplicate what he did for the past hour and can't duplicate it. Maybe I'm not understanding what he did. When pulling firearm, trigger finger is extended, push button, draw weapon, engage trigger with finger. How do you engage trigger AND button at the same time?


You need to shoot yourself.

Problem Solved.

[Buzzcat]

So before I watch the thing, does the guy actually shoot himself? I don't feel like watching some snuff film.

[thatguy423]

Actually the more I think about it, He is actually one unlucky dude.. My Kimbers generally worked about 50% of the time.. I guess this time his actually worked.. Bummer :deadhorse:

[.44Smith&Wesson]

So before I watch the thing, does the guy actually shoot himself? I don't feel like watching some snuff film.

Yeah, he does. No snuff, but a very possible life threatening GSW.

Looks to me like this all happened because of the too many, too similar types of weapon/gear systems being used. A thumb break retention holster for his Glock, and a trigger finger activated retention release (so stupid) with his 1911.

On one hand he trains his muscle memory to use the trigger finger before it should ever be used, and on the other hand he uses a firearm, that with only a flick of the thumb and a mere 3.5 pounds of pressure before the bang. Now mix up the two separate systems and you get what he got.....trouble.

IMO both of these pieces of gear are more complicated than necessary, and I would not ever utilize either one.

[NickS]

Take a look again. Especially in slow motion. As soon as the gun cleared his holster his finger went on the trigger.

[kdogg]

I've had Serpa's for P226's, GLOCK's and 1911's. I've also had Safari-lands for the same including an HK. I've personally never had any issues.

[MLG]

I have a serpa (use it on occasion for woods walking) and I've been trying to duplicate what he did for the past hour and can't duplicate it. Maybe I'm not understanding what he did. When pulling firearm, trigger finger is extended, push button, draw weapon, engage trigger with finger. How do you engage trigger AND button at the same time?

Just my $.02 but maybe you should not try to replicate the problem... muscle memory is a funny thing. Trying to replicate a bad practice ia a bad idea, in my mind.

[hopeitsfast]

I've had Serpa's for P226's, GLOCK's and 1911's. I've also had Safari-lands for the same including an HK. I've personally never had any issues.
Sounds exactly like something that might of been said by the guy in this video, before he put a round through his leg.(even afterwards) Like he said," I've done this drawstroke thousands of times".....

Serpas aren't a problem, until their a problem. I understand that the holster doesn't make him pull the trigger,And at the end of the day the issue still rests with the guy the pulled the trigger, but the design sure seems to contribute to the problem. At least that's my .02

[emt232004]

you are required to use the same muscle movement using the same muscle groups it takes to pull the trigger to unlock the weapon from the holster within milliseconds of each other. Getting it just slightly off means you inadvertently will end up pulling the trigger before even knowing what is going on.

Not true, when used correctly your finger is lined up along the frame when you draw, not bent or on the trigger.


Take a look again. Especially in slow motion. As soon as the gun cleared his holster his finger went on the trigger.

Yes user error not a design flaw. More practice and correct muscle memory would have helped to fix this.

[RifleGuy]

Not true, when used correctly your finger is lined up along the frame when you draw, not bent or on the trigger.

Yes user error not a design flaw. More practice and correct muscle memory would have helped to fix this.
Under stress situations, fine motor control largely disappears. The distinction between the holster draw and the act of firing the weapon will likely be lost.

A lot of people with credible experience view the Serpa holster as anathema; too many incidents such as this to be able to quantify it as a well-designed and safe product.

[dramey82]

Take a look again. Especially in slow motion. As soon as the gun cleared his holster his finger went on the trigger.
Yes, his gun has cleared the holster, his finger went straight to the trigger and boom, can't blame a holster for that one.

[emt232004]

Under stress situations, fine motor control largely disappears. The distinction between the holster draw and the act of firing the weapon will likely be lost.

A lot of people with credible experience view the Serpa holster as anathema; too many incidents such as this to be able to quantify it as a well-designed and safe product.

Even people with credible experience are prone to errors, that does not make them above the rest of us, train and know your equipment to reduce said user errors.

When used correctly it is not a design flaw. You do not need to press the "button" with the tip of your finger.

[RifleGuy]

Even people with credible experience are prone to errors, that does not make them above the rest of us, train and know your equipment to reduce said user errors.

When used correctly it is not a design flaw. You do not need to press the "button" with the tip of your finger.
Difference of opinion, Sir. My engineering background steers me towards 'bad design', my experiences in life steer me towards 'bad idea'.

Obviously your experiences steer you in another direction. Best of luck to you. Regardless, this is little different than the seatbelt argument, or the helmet arguement. I choose what I feel is best for me, and encourage you to do what you feel is best for you.

I wear a helmet, wear my seatbelt, and will not use a Serpa holster.

Your mileage may vary.

Kindest regards.

[emt232004]

Let's call it what it is, This guy is target shooting. He failed to line up a target before pulling the trigger and pulled the trigger before clearing his body. He is filming the event so I would say he is attempting to speed up his competition shooting times or improve technique, either way corners got cut and he got shot in the leg.

I for one would not pull the trigger without being lined up on a sure target.

[dougwg]

You still don't get it...

He didn't mean to shoot himself.

You won't either if/when it happens to you.

Many people with what I'm sure is a hellofalot more training then you have had issue's while drawing from a serpa.

It's not a training issue, it's a HUMAN NATURE issue, and you can't train away human nature.

[RifleGuy]

<snip>It's not a training issue, it's a HUMAN NATURE issue, and you can't train away human nature.
Precisely.

[Quantum007]

You still don't get it...

He didn't mean to shoot himself.

You won't either if/when it happens to you.

Many people with what I'm sure is a hellofalot more training then you have had issue's while drawing from a serpa.

It's not a training issue, it's a HUMAN NATURE issue, and you can't train away human nature.

And that, is the argument, boiled down to the bare bones and put up on display. If it were just one person, or one incident then many instructors would not, in black and white policies, not allow Serpa holsters in their classes. Trust me when I say that I have carried and used Serpa holsters for many years, and no longer choose to do so. To each their own, my two cents only...

[emt232004]

You still don't get it...

He didn't mean to shoot himself.

You won't either if/when it happens to you.

Many people with what I'm sure is a hellofalot more training then you have had issue's while drawing from a serpa.

It's not a training issue, it's a HUMAN NATURE issue, and you can't train away human nature.

Did you even watch the video? ant the 0:57 mark he has correct finger placement and is clear of the holster. This is a case of him pulling the trigger before the gun was pointed in the correct direction.
We all know your standing on serpas but this is not a case of a serpa fail it is user error.

He admits he was attempting to draw and fire, he attempted to draw the first time and did not hit the release so on the second attempt he admits to curling his finger.

This is a traning issue as he was not familar to what equipment he was using at the time of the ND. Earlier in the day he was using one setup and now another, still thinking he was using the other holster is why the ND occured as is what he admits. The footage of the event as it happens is proof of this.

[RifleGuy]

oy

[pgaplayerless]

Not true, when used correctly your finger is lined up along the frame when you draw, not bent or on the trigger.

No. Human ergonomics say u press in...like a button...with the very tip of your finger and your finger WILL have a curl/bend to it. End of story.

[emt232004]

No. Human ergonomics say u press in...like a button...with the very tip of your finger and your finger WILL have a curl/bend to it. End of story.

Funny how I am a human and do not have those ergonomics, it is a pad press and not and curl/bend press.

[pgaplayerless]

Funny how I am a human and do not have those ergonomics, it is a pad press and not and curl/bend press.

ya and you probably drawl like an old white lady going to church.....

[Ricebrnr]

Serpa issues aside, I don't understand.

He was drawing a 1911.

Why in the heck was the safety off before he was lined up on target anyway?

[donald150]

Serpa issues aside, I don't understand.

He was drawing a 1911.

Why in the heck was the safety off before he was lined up on target anyway?

He tells you why in the video.:doh:

[Will-IB-Ready]

Serpa issues aside, I don't understand.

He was drawing a 1911.

Why in the heck was the safety off before he was lined up on target anyway?
Because he was practicing Close Contact fighting skills. All of your NRA B.S. goes out the window when an attacker is at bad breath distance from you. You shoot from retention as soon as your pistol clears holster and you can index it toward your attacker.

This is why I always caution "range shooting experts" against taking classes like MDFI's CCS until they're actually capable of doing this stuff without putting a hole in themselves.

I'm sure that the Serpa works great for you EMT. Because you've never had to shoot when your adrenaline is pumping and your "finger pad press" turns into a death grip.

[ChaneyD]

Under stress situations, fine motor control largely disappears. The distinction between the holster draw and the act of firing the weapon will likely be lost.

A lot of people with credible experience view the Serpa holster as anathema; too many incidents such as this to be able to quantify it as a well-designed and safe product.

Same could be said for the Glock. How many LEO's have shot themselves?

[pgaplayerless]

Same could be said for the Glock. How many LEO's have shot themselves?

surprising many.....


Hell one enforcement officer even killed a man because he drew his service pistol and pulled the trigger while he wanted to draw his taser instead.

[Dabears!]

surprising many.....


Hell one enforcement officer even killed a man because he drew his service pistol and pulled the trigger while he wanted to draw his taser instead.
referring to the Bart officer from Oakland Cali?

[fbuckner]

Well this is what I have to say. Its not the serpa its the guy using the gun.
The Serpa was NOT designed to have a bent finger fall into the trigger guard. That was the ignorance of a world renowned trainer (his name escapes me at the moment) teaching that to be the latest and greatest to speed up firing the weapon. Its unfortunate that some people followed this idiot before thinking for them selves "Is this safe?" the serpa was designed to have the finger fall on the slide rail or on the frame of the gun.

I have seen of N/D's and seen them by students and great trainers alike.
If you do something enough times WRONG or CARELESS sooner or later that little lady Karma is going to bite you in the butt.

[pgaplayerless]

referring to the Bart officer from Oakland Cali?

yes

[Barbara]

I've known or known of several people who have shot themselves with Serpas. I know of not a single person who has shot themselves drawing from a Safariland, a Blade Tech, Raven Gear, Crossbreed, Comp-Tac, Fobus, Milt Sparks, Galco, Fobus, or any other holster from any other manufacturer. The common theme in people I know or know of who have shot themselves drawing a pistol is that they were all using Serpas.

[BlooMule]

First, I know nothing about holsters.

Second, this type of holster was demonstrated in the CPL class I just took. I was used as a 'guinea pig' to demonsrtrate how the gun could not be removed without pressing the release.

My impression was 'Great, something else to remember to do under stress'.

Add this to the mix and I'm pretty much decided that a small DAO hammerless .38 revolver is going to be my carry gun of choice.

[Ruger]

First, I know nothing about holsters.

Second, this type of holster was demonstrated in the CPL class I just took. I was used as a 'guinea pig' to demonsrtrate how the gun could not be removed without pressing the release.

My impression was 'Great, something else to remember to do under stress'.

Add this to the mix and I'm pretty much decided that a small DAO hammerless .38 revolver is going to be my carry gun of choice.



It's all between the ears! The holster is a tool and the Serpa is a poor one! Use poor quality tools and you'll find that they fail rather quickly.

That being said I own a Serpa and it's been sitting in my junk locker since the locked up 1911 video that Fisher displayed a few years ago. I purchased it because it was cheap!
I no longer purchase "cheap"! There is a multitude of holster makers right here on the forum, Why shop anywhere else? Just my :twocents:

[Dabears!]

It's all between the ears! The holster is a tool and the Serpa is a poor one! Use poor quality tools and you'll find that they fail rather quickly.

That being said I own a Serpa and it's been sitting in my junk locker since the locked up 1911 video that Fisher displayed a few years ago. I purchased it because it was cheap!
I no longer purchase "cheap"! There is a multitude of holster makers right here on the forum, Why shop anywhere else? Just my :twocents:
agreed. I had one at one point but got over it. it is more trouble than they are worth

[Wolvee]

........

[dougwg]

shallow thinkers...

[06camarodude]

Yeah, he does. No snuff, but a very possible life threatening GSW.

Looks to me like this all happened because of the too many, too similar types of weapon/gear systems being used. A thumb break retention holster for his Glock, and a trigger finger activated retention release (so stupid) with his 1911.

On one hand he trains his muscle memory to use the trigger finger before it should ever be used, and on the other hand he uses a firearm, that with only a flick of the thumb and a mere 3.5 pounds of pressure before the bang. Now mix up the two separate systems and you get what he got.....trouble.

IMO both of these pieces of gear are more complicated than necessary, and I would not ever utilize either one.

I agree. Had he not used a "thumbdrive" holster with his Glock (and trained with it), he wouldn't have taken the thumb safety off on his 1911. Conversely, the same thing would have been very easy to do with a Glock, due to the lack of a thumb safety, had he been using the Serpa. I have no problems with the Level III Serpa duty holster I carried my Beretta in, but I never disengaged the thumb safety until my weapon was pointed downrange, and I used Serpa holster's exclusively with the weapon I carried.

I'm aware of the safety issues with the design, and as such, I'm switching over to a different style of Level III retention holster for my XD and Beretta while I'm working. I will be training with the new holster system to become familiar with it and to eliminate any bad habits formed by holsters I've used in the past. I'm not loyal to a single brand, I just insist on having gear that works. Serpa holsters worked for me in the past, and I have no complaints about the product or the company.

All that said, the ND shown in the video in the OP was purely the fault of the operator, there's no two ways about it. A number of factors contributed to the ND, but had he done one or two things differently, the outcome would have been far less tragic (for example, standardizing his holster options across the board, so he is familiar with one platform exclusively, and all of his training would apply to all weapons he carries, instead of being dependent upon which pistol and holster he is carrying at the time.

[Wolvee]

......

[Ruger]

Since my other posts were removed for an AUP Violation I'll just say, I'm glad he shot himself. It's karma for harassing people and releasing peoples private information. I HOPE IT HURT.

Don't be a Richard! You're not glad he shot himself! And hell yes it hurt! You know it hurt! You don't have to hope! :coffee:

[Wolvee]

.....

[dpgperftest]

This thread is called > 'i always knew this person was going to hurt himself'

Who is this person ? and I hope he get well soon "a hard lessen to learn" .

[Dabears!]

This thread is called > 'i always knew this person was going to hurt himself'

Who is this person ? and I hope he get well soon "a hard lessen to learn" .
uh my guess would be this person is the person in the video that shot himself...

[dpgperftest]

uh my guess would be this person is the person in the video that shot himself...
I cant see the vid" I am on dial up at the farm is he a MGO member ? I hope hes going to be ok

[Wolvee]

.....

[Dabears!]

I cant see the vid" I am on dial up at the farm is he a MGO member ? I hope hes going to be ok
oh wow dial up.
he is a blogger on youtube who makes gun blogs and is just dumb.

[Ruger]

Well, maybe I'm just bitter because he likes to torment so many people who are just trying to do their own thing. I can't say that I got all teary eyed when he shot himself. :hide:

You're a good man Wolvee and we both know this guy's jerk. He's a legend in his own mind and somewhere there's a village missing and idiot!

[RSF]

Well this is what I have to say. Its not the serpa its the guy using the gun.
The Serpa was NOT designed to have a bent finger fall into the trigger guard. That was the ignorance of a world renowned trainer (his name escapes me at the moment) teaching that to be the latest and greatest to speed up firing the weapon. Its unfortunate that some people followed this idiot before thinking for them selves "Is this safe?" the serpa was designed to have the finger fall on the slide rail or on the frame of the gun.

I have seen of N/D's and seen them by students and great trainers alike.
If you do something enough times WRONG or CARELESS sooner or later that little lady Karma is going to bite you in the butt.


I know of not one trainer that promotes getting your finger on that trigger with that holster.. at any point until needed i know of not one great instructor that has ND with that rig they all avoid it for good reason there is reason why the man who designed it left BH after the issue became know....

I know a lot of those great worlds trainers on speed dial on my phone not a one of them promotes that **** or speed rocking

[Mia'sUncle]

"My training kicked in and I called my mommy."

LOLOLOL

[Dabears!]

he is trained

16 hours of training on the kalishnakov platform. Watch out T Fin theres a new AK master in town and he wears a dumb camo hat and likes to pop shots off into his leg!

8AUmU5Zt7a0

[Wolvee]

.......

[dpgperftest]

Is that him ???? I have to wait intel i get home to see the vid"

[METL]

I"m curious what training he had that "kicked in" just after the shot... as someone said... training to cry to mommy? Training to call 911? I mean, what is his extensive training that he has... clearly it is not cardio... or weight training.... :P


edit: I did like the reload. :)

[Ruger]

I can't watch it. I am going to violate another AUP and post more of his rambling crap if I watch another moment of that person. ...I hope he runs out of pain meds till morning.

Yep I noticed several of "our" posts "poofed" without warning. Tough job but someone has to do it!

[RifleGuy]

I'm willing to kick in a few bucks and send this clown to a Dale Carnegie course; anyone willing to help?

16 Hours of training on the Kalashnikov platform! Wow! :yikes: VERY impressive, Sir. :sarclap:

[RifleGuy]

I have a lot to say, but it's bad form when another Moderator finds it necessary to delete my posts and threaten me with a ban. Let it suffice to say, I wish I were a real he-man like Tex, with 16 HOURS of training on the Kalashnikov platform.

And not so much on the Colt .45 or the Serpa holster. :whistle:

[dpgperftest]

I have a lot to say, but it's bad form when another Moderator finds it necessary to delete my posts and threaten me with a ban. Let it suffice to say, I wish I were a real he-man like Tex, with 16 HOURS of training on the Kalashnikov platform.

And not so much on the Colt .45 or the Serpa holster. :whistle:
WOW I like to say I never see any thing for you that was not appropriate .
its nice to see some MOD's out here interacting on MGO.
This is needed .

[Dabears!]

I have a lot to say, but it's bad form when another Moderator finds it necessary to delete my posts and threaten me with a ban.


i thought there would be some respect between mods but thats messed up

[hopeitsfast]

16 hours of training on the kalishnakov platform. Watch out T Fin theres a new AK master in town






16 Hours of training on the Kalashnikov platform! Wow! :yikes: VERY impressive, Sir. :sarclap:

Not defending this clown,because his videos are extremely arrogant and "douch-ey", but i'll bet 99% of the AK owners on this site don't have 16hrs of formal training on their own AKs. I know i don't.

[Dabears!]

Not defending this clown,because his videos are extremely arrogant and "douch-ey", but i'll bet 99% of the AK owners on this site don't have 16hrs of formal training on their own AKs. I know i don't.
yeah the point is after 16 hours i would not consider myself an expert.
If i had my AK i ordered(grrrrrr) i was gonna take that ak operations class. if it were a 2 day 8 hour each day course i would have as much training as him.
I would consider myself to be FAR from an expert.

[hopeitsfast]

yeah the point is after 16 hours i would not consider myself an expert.
If i had my AK i ordered(grrrrrr) i was gonna take that ak operations class. if it were a 2 day 8 hour each day course i would have as much training as him.
I would consider myself to be FAR from an expert.
Agreed.

[DetroitBiker]

I consider myself an expert on the kalishnakov platform myself

I have over 100 hours of serious PS3 C.O.D and other special opps training
and hold a few X-BOX 360 records in combat kills.

:surprise: :D

[DetroitBiker]

double Tap,thats how us Operators roll

[RifleGuy]

i thought there would be some respect between mods but thats messed up
There is tremendous respect between the Mod's, but the rules is the rules.

And Tex Grebner of Tex Grebner Outdoors is, in my opinion, a buffoon and a waste of electrolytes & protoplasm. He is an embarrassment to gun enthusiasts and human beings.

His cocky, know-it-all attitude is precisely the persona which drives people away from the shooting sports, and is a detriment to responsible gun owners.

But that is just my opinion, and is not purported as fact.

[hopeitsfast]

There is tremendous respect between the Mod's, but the rules is the rules.

And Tex Grebner of Tex Grebner Outdoors is, in my opinion, a buffoon and a waste of electrolytes & protoplasm. He is an embarrassment to gun enthusiasts and human beings.

His cocky, know-it-all attitude is precisely the persona which drives people away from the shooting sports, and is a detriment to responsible gun owners.

But that is just my opinion, and is not purported as fact.
I beg to differ, i think it's a fact! :thumbup:

[Dabears!]

I beg to differ, i think it's a fact! :thumbup:


yuppppppppppp

[Wolvee]

........

[hopeitsfast]

I guess I'm glad I'm not the only still getting threatened with the ban hammer.

Although when it comes to a fellow Mod threatening another Mod, it kinda seems like pissing where you sleep and as a point of fact, One Moderator can't ban another Moderator. The forum hierarchy doesn't allow it. Now what can happen is, one mod can go to an Administrator and taddle-tale on the other mod but they can't ban them.

Any threatening to do so is just an attempt to bully and a bunch of Bull crap.
Bet this post disappears..:razz:

[RifleGuy]

I guess I'm glad I'm not the only still getting threatened with the ban hammer.

Although when it comes to a fellow Mod threatening another Mod, it kinda seems like pissing where you sleep and as a point of fact, One Moderator can't ban another Moderator. The forum hierarchy doesn't allow it. Now what can happen is, one mod can go to an Administrator and taddle-tale on the other mod but they can't ban them.

Any threatening to do so is just an attempt to bully and a bunch of Bull crap.
Oy. :facepalm: I was not threatened with a ban. I made a bad attempt at humor, stating that if I expressed my opinions I would be threatened with a ban.
No ban has been threatened, and I have not been admonished by another Mod.
That said, a Mod that violates the rules is held to the same standard as everyone else; Mod's are not above the rules.

And my opinions of Tex Grebner of Tex Grebner Outdoors is still unfit to be posted in the open forums without admonishment from Admin., or other Mod's. :lol:

My opinion is still that Mr. Grebner is a blight upon the image of responsible gun ownership., and his mishap with the Serpa holster exemplifies why I hold that opinion. (Stated as politely as I am able).

[dpgperftest]

back to the subject .

this guy a instructor and what does he do .

[RifleGuy]

And now back to Mr. Grebner, please.

Oops, too late... dpgperftest beat me to the punch!

[hopeitsfast]

back to the subject .

this guy a instructor and what does he do .
I think he's just one of those 'wanna be famous' Youtube dorks. :p

[RifleGuy]

this guy a instructor and what does he do .


I think he's just one of those 'wanna be famous' Youtube dorks. :p
In his 'Kalashnikov Platform' video, he states he IS NOT an instructor, but has taken classes taught by an instructor.
I wonder if he stayed at a Holiday Inn as well?

[Dabears!]

In his 'Kalashnikov Platform' video, he states he IS NOT an instructor, but has taken classes taught by an instructor.
I wonder if he stayed at a Holiday Inn as well?
he probably had a v8 also!

[METL]

I like how he prefaces that he is NOT an instructor, then proceeds to give INSTRUCTION on "operation of the kaLASHnikov platform"... wha?! :facepalm: :shrugs:

[stainless1911]

ok, question for the serpa haters.

What do you recommend?

Besides losing the serpa.

[5alarm435]

Are you looking for something high end, low end, or more... uh... middle of the road?



ok, question for the serpa haters.

What do you recommend?

Besides losing the serpa.

[hopeitsfast]

Are you looking for something high end, low end, or more... uh... middle of the road?
Now that's just funny!

[Dabears!]

crown all the way

[RSF]

ok, question for the serpa haters.

What do you recommend?

Besides losing the serpa.


if you must have retention get a SF 6377 or the like holster from them

Tex was a student at tactical response in Tenn.

[Will-IB-Ready]

ok, question for the serpa haters.

What do you recommend?

Besides losing the serpa.
Get a Safariland if you love the idea of active retention.

[dpgperftest]

ok, question for the serpa haters.

What do you recommend?

Besides losing the serpa.
I dont see anything bad about a serpa just train with it and know the ins & out of it... I recommend a crossbeed ST or a Side snap .

[stainless1911]

I do want active retention, I never conceal.

[METL]

Are you looking for something high end, low end, or more... uh... middle of the road?



:lolup: :laughing: :biggrin: :coffee: :hick:





Stainless, check out the safariland ALS (someone mentioned 6377 but teh 6378 is good too)

They are really nice and the rentention release isn't so obvious, so if someone DID go for a gun grab, they might not realize how it works.

I have both the serpa and the safariland.. and the safariland is HANDS DOWN a way better holster... suede lined.. smoother draw... better retention system... no holes in your leg.....

[7.62 Nato]

Serpas are not idiot proof. Neither are the guns in them.
















.:whistle:

[aresbykes]

Tex was a student at tactical response in Tenn.


Bro, it's Tactical response, Sweet company name = sweet training?

They're big on youtube.( And probably big in Japan.)

Hater's Gon' Hate!

If he would have double tapped the target after shooting himself, that would have been epic, and a little redeeming.

[Dabears!]

Serpas are not idiot proof. Neither are the guns in them.
















.:whistle:

or some of the people using them

[TangoDown3727]

I like how he said he called his parents first

:yeahthat: That was because "his training took over" :rofl:

[TangoDown3727]

I would have been impressed if he'd have put a couple rounds in the bad guy too. It's not everyday you get the chance to practice a real life scenario that starts off with you putting a round into your leg.
:lolup:

[TangoDown3727]

he probably had a v8 also!

...And I'm sure he's stayed in a Holiday Inn Express too!

[mini4m3]

gmQF0J1LhHE

[TheSilentOne]

I guess that proves that shot placement is key, and even the almighty .45acp isn't a one-shot stopper. :mischeif:

[Quantum007]

I guess that proves that shot placement is key, and even the almighty .45acp isn't a one-shot stopper. :mischeif:

Oh that's right he took a muzzle shot to his leg and it didn't vaporize...of course they will say it was....

1. FMJ
2. Range Ammo
3. Downloaded Reloads

ect, ect....

[stainless1911]

It probably was a FMJ.

[TangoDown3727]

The old "Booger-Hook on the Bang Switch" trick...putting holes in legs since 1424!
:lol:

[donald150]

It probably was a FMJ.

If I remember correctly, he said it was a FMJ or range ammo.

[donald150]

I guess that proves that shot placement is key, and even the almighty .45acp isn't a one-shot stopper. :mischeif:



Your post reminds me of this video, I love it.

RC99kc2hpGY

[TangoDown3727]

It probably was a FMJ.

Yeah it was. He said so in the video, when he showed his bandages.

[Malexan]

He switched his safety off and put his finger on the trigger. I dont know about your guys, but when I draw from any holster my finger is sitting on the top of the trigger guard, completely away from the trigger. The serpa holster sets me up to do just that. Operator error. Simple as that.

[Dabears!]

It probably was a FMJ.
it said that in the video

[stainless1911]

He switched his safety off and put his finger on the trigger. I dont know about your guys, but when I draw from any holster my finger is sitting on the top of the trigger guard, completely away from the trigger. The serpa holster sets me up to do just that. Operator error. Simple as that.

Yep, it encourages proper finger placement.

[dpgperftest]

Well i am home and not on dial up . holy sheep-dip i watched the video . I just pissed my self . that had to hurt

[emt232004]

He switched his safety off and put his finger on the trigger. I dont know about your guys, but when I draw from any holster my finger is sitting on the top of the trigger guard, completely away from the trigger. The serpa holster sets me up to do just that. Operator error. Simple as that.

Serpa haters do not understand that because " several top instructors that they know" do not allow serpas in their class.

[miked]

Serpa haters do not understand that because " several top instructors that they know" do not allow serpas in their class.


And Serpa lovers will refuse to acknowledge that the design of the holster lends itself to this type of error.

[Dabears!]

Serpa haters do not understand that because " several top instructors that they know" do not allow serpas in their class.
i used to wear a serpa, and after practicing drawing a lot with it i decided it was not safe in my opinion.
when you lose all fine motor skills whats going to keep your finger on the frame?

[RifleGuy]

<snip> I dont know about your guys, but when I draw from any holster my finger is sitting on the top of the trigger guard, completely away from the trigger. The serpa holster sets me up to do just that. Operator error. Simple as that.
Until you add a stressor; a sense of urgency, an emergency, etc., where the adrenaline is dumping into your system and the body enters a tachypsychia state. With your heart rate jumping to 200-300 bpm, your respirations dramatically increasing, your body dumping glucose for extra energy, your pupils dialate to allow extra light, but causing visual exclusion, and the body shuts down fine controls of all extremities to keep you from fainting.... then you will have a death grip on your pistol and the diffrence between 'finger on frame' and 'finger on trigger' will be undiscernable to you. You will be clawing your pistol from your Serpa holster and there is an significant increase in liklihood that your finger will transition from the release pad to the trigger, unconsciously & unintentionally, and the pistol will fire during the draw.

I can thread a sewing needle first try, every time. Likely you can as well. But if we run a stopwatch for time, race up the basement steps, jump over a chair, grab the needle and thread from a table and attempt to thread that needle, we will probably drop the needle, stab ourselves, miss the eye several times... all while completing a task we can easily accomplish normally.

Stop thinking about what you can do 'normally' and consider your physiological and mental limitations/functionality during in a time of emergency. Under the influence of stressors, the Setrpa presents a greater opportunity for unintentional discharge of the weapon than other designs.

[stainless1911]

This is exactly why muscle memory is so important.

When you first get into a car learning to drive, you dont know where the door handle is, much less the bumpers, tires, or brake pedal is. When you are suddenly in a life threatening situation, you crash. Until you, through thousands of repetitions, gain the muscle memory to apply just the exact amount of brake at exactly the right time for a given situation, and you dont crash.

[emt232004]

This is exactly why muscle memory is so important.

When you first get into a car learning to drive, you dont know where the door handle is, much less the bumpers, tires, or brake pedal is. When you are suddenly in a life threatening situation, you crash. Until you, through thousands of repetitions, gain the muscle memory to apply just the exact amount of brake at exactly the right time for a given situation, and you dont crash.

:yeahthat:

It is not a bad design or design flaw, it is user error combined with poor muscle memory, lack of training/knowledge of your equipment.


Until you add a stressor; a sense of urgency, an emergency, etc., where the adrenaline is dumping into your system and the body enters a tachypsychia state. With your heart rate jumping to 200-300 bpm, your respirations dramatically increasing, your body dumping glucose for extra energy, your pupils dialate to allow extra light, but causing visual exclusion, and the body shuts down fine controls of all extremities to keep you from fainting.... then you will have a death grip on your pistol and the diffrence between 'finger on frame' and 'finger on trigger' will be undiscernable to you. You will be clawing your pistol from your Serpa holster and there is an significant increase in liklihood that your finger will transition from the release pad to the trigger, unconsciously & unintentionally, and the pistol will fire during the draw.

I can thread a sewing needle first try, every time. Likely you can as well. But if we run a stopwatch for time, race up the basement steps, jump over a chair, grab the needle and thread from a table and attempt to thread that needle, we will probably drop the needle, stab ourselves, miss the eye several times... all while completing a task we can easily accomplish normally.

Stop thinking about what you can do 'normally' and consider your physiological and mental limitations/functionality during in a time of emergency. Under the influence of stressors, the Setrpa presents a greater opportunity for unintentional discharge of the weapon than other designs.

If you get that worked up under stress then you should not be carrying a firearm, if you cannot tell the difference of finger on the frame or finger on the trigger how will you know that you are lined up on the correct target and not some kid in the crowd or know what is behing the target that you are shooting at? :shrugs:

[DetroitBiker]

http://i55.tinypic.com/2lwrmv5.jpg

Some guys just Don't know the difference :shake:

[kevins_garage]

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/2/5/128783773582469791.jpg

[DetroitBiker]

Cp8Fy4Xs-F8&feature=related

[RifleGuy]

If you get that worked up under stress then you should not be carrying a firearm, if you cannot tell the difference of finger on the frame or finger on the trigger how will you know that you are lined up on the correct target and not some kid in the crowd or know what is behing the target that you are shooting at? :shrugs:
I wasn't indicating I experience tachypsychia running up the basement steps; I used it as an example of how the bodies fine motor controls deteriorate under stress.

If someone is actively trying to stick a knife in you, pointing a gun in your face & screaming, a dog is lunging for your throat or gnawing on a limb, you are fighting for your life, etc., you are likely to experience some level of tachypsychia. It is the bodies natural response to danger; lots of energy to fight or flee, vision pin-points to the danger, and fine controls deteriorate.

Muscle memory is great for gross control, but fine control diminishes as stress levels increase, and the difference between finger on frame and finger on trigger is more of a fine control.

[emt232004]

My question still stands

if you cannot tell the difference of finger on the frame or finger on the trigger how will you know that you are lined up on the correct target and not some kid in the crowd or know what is behing the target that you are shooting at?

[stainless1911]

From what I gather, most people never see the sights in such an engagement. If possible, dont fire unless there isnt anything or anyone behind the target. Find the front sight if you can. I painted mine bright red, just for the slight increase in visibility.

[dougwg]

Ya don't know whatcha don't know.

[Tom Fineis]

The Dunning-Kruger is strong in this one.

[skoltuniak]

The Border Patrol (largest federal law enforcement agency with over 20,000 Agents) uses Serpa lvl 3 holsters. I can tell you that day one out of the academy, I had to clear my holster with my heart pumping and adrenaline dumping. I've drawn my weapon on the job hundreds of times without an issue due to the holster as have several thousand other Agents.

Do I think it's the best holster design? No.
Do I have a lot more practice than most? Yes.

Any holster can fail but I think that the lowest number of points of retention to complete your mission is key. On duty, Agents have lost their weapons with the old hood or strap style holsters.

Off duty, I use my Kydex holster. I'm not typically running, crawling, and crashing through brush on my days off.

Moral of the story, practice with what you carry.

[skoltuniak]

The Dunning-Kruger is strong in this one.
Succinct and accurate.

Edit:
I thought that he was referring to the guy in the video when I posted this.

[emt232004]

The Border Patrol (largest federal law enforcement agency with over 20,000 Agents) uses Serpa lvl 3 holsters. I can tell you that day one out of the academy, I had to clear my holster with my heart pumping and adrenaline dumping. I've drawn my weapon on the job hundreds of times without an issue due to the holster as have several thousand other Agents.

Do I think it's the best holster design? No.
Do I have a lot more practice than most? Yes.

Any holster can fail but I think that the lowest number of points of retention to complete your mission is key. On duty, Agents have lost their weapons with the old hood or strap style holsters.

Off duty, I use my Kydex holster. I'm not typically running, crawling, and crashing through brush on my days off.

Moral of the story, practice with what you carry.

Wait!! Are you saying that during your employment you crawl and travel through brush and nothing gets stuck on the serpa button like most serpa haters clam will happen when doing such activity?

Another myth busted

[skoltuniak]

Wait!! Are you saying that during your employment you crawl and travel through brush and nothing gets stuck on the serpa button like most serpa haters clam will happen when doing such activity?

Another myth busted
I'm not saying that it can't happen, I'm saying that it hasn't happened to me or anybody else that I know. I accept it as a possibility though.

I can tell you that I've hit the deck in sand dunes and been concerned about it when I drew my weapon.

[RifleGuy]

The Dunning-Kruger is strong in this one.
Me? Probably, but I am always willing to learn, so if you will highlight and correct my error I would sincerely be appreciative.
I'm an opinionated sob, but not so stubborn that I won't learn from others.

[Tom Fineis]

Me? Probably, but I am always willing to learn, so if you will highlight and correct my error I would sincerely be appreciative.
I'm an opinionated sob, but not so stubborn that I won't learn from others.

That post was not directed to any single individual.

[dougwg]

That post was not directed to any single individual.
bs..

coughemt232004cough

[Tom Fineis]

Doug,

While I often enjoy your pot-stirring, please do not do any pot stirring on my behalf. I can take care of that myself. ;)

[RifleGuy]

That post was not directed to any single individual.
Kewl, but if I have made incorrect statements PLEASE correct me. Thnx!

[Ruger]

Succinct and accurate.

Edit:
I thought that he was referring to the guy in the video when I posted this.


There's a lot more stupid going on here then good ol Tex's self inflected wound video. :stooges:

[hopeitsfast]

Just a brief sampling...

ToddG. of Pistol Training .com and also Aim Fast Hit Fast Training.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/4926#comments

Snow Failure below..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htigDRr7tdM :scratch:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOBEJvMZ_f4&feature=related (LEO CQC training failure 5 out of 7 broke) :scratch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK1JD_u1yO0&feature=related (pics of the CQCs)

The following is from Gabe Suarez of S.I.

The Serpa is an excellently marketed, but extremely poorly designed unit. There are so many of them out there that it would be impossible to ban them without eliminating many potential students. So I do not disallow them. What I do have is a clause in the waiver that if YOUR gear injures you or anyone else, YOU are solely responsible for any fallout that results...and yes, it does have weight in court should that happen. Moreover guys using Serpas are noted and advised personally about that.

And for anyone reading that thinks they are some ninja socom death dealers, I will say this. I have seen very squared away guys ranging from an internationally recognized trainer, to a Special Warfare guy with lots of "downrange" experience each have identical issues with Serpa holsters during our FOF evolutions.

Shooting yourself with Airsoft is not as noteworthy as this OP, but shows the extreme problems with that design.

If you want a retention holster, get the Safariland system

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=91799


FYI,

For what it's worth, my SWAT team (upstate NY)was on a Barricaded Gunman call last night with heavy snow, wind and cold conditions...12f. After two hours the suspect surrendered and was taken into custody. During the debrief, one of my operators, who had been assigned to a containment team and lying prone in the snow, found that he was unable to draw his sidearm from his Serpa holster. Apparently snow had made it's way into the holster locking mechanism and produced a failure which took approximately 2 minutes to break free and clear. This was post incident (fortunately) but highlights a very serious issue. I've heard of this before with sand and other debris but never snow and ice. So.....for all you people that get snow and ice and use the Serpa..please be aware. I will be meeting ASAP with my leadership to discuss pulling the Serpa offline immediately. Be safe out there.

Swat2


One version of a single handed technique down the toilet with a Serpa..

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=399498


During a recent training event, an officer in a partner agency experienced a problem with his Glock 21 and Blackhawk Serpa holster combination. During support-hand, single-hand drills, he inserted his G21 into his Serpa holster backwards during a drill. When he attempted to draw the gun from the holster, it was locked into place. Removal of the gun required partial disassembly of the holster.

There are so many reasons not to use this piss poor design, yet people just continue to defend them because they own them. Folks should not be so attached to a piece of gear.

[Dabears!]

Just a brief sampling...

ToddG. of Pistol Training .com and also Aim Fast Hit Fast Training.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/4926#comments

Snow Failure below..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htigDRr7tdM :scratch:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOBEJvMZ_f4&feature=related (LEO CQC training failure 5 out of 7 broke) :scratch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK1JD_u1yO0&feature=related (pics of the CQCs)

The following is from Gabe Suarez of S.I.


http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=91799



One version of a single handed technique down the toilet with a Serpa..

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=399498


There are so many reasons not to use this piss poor design, yet people just continue to defend them because they own them. Folks should not be so attached to a piece of gear.

no offense but that last one is bunk I do not see how he could jam the gun in backwards and lock it in place...

[dougwg]

I love where his finger goes .25 sec's after the draw...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWScBNhpJpk&feature=player_detailpage#t=41s

[hopeitsfast]

no offense but that last one is bunk I do not see how he could jam the gun in backwards and lock it in place...
Well if you can't see how it could happen, it must be a lie.

I guess the guy on post 10 of that same thread is lying about his sig too.

Just FYI, I checked and my non-rail frame P220 locks up the EXACT same way when inserted backwards as if to do a one handed reload! This is indeed a serious design flaw. After seeing this, I became curious so I pulled out the screw in the side of the Serpa to remove this tension device.

And the guy with the M&P


My Glock 22/21/MP45 revision C( the new one after the one that was already recalled, I believe) locks my MP 40 and my MP 45 up.



Oh and both of the first two have pictures, but i guess those are "bunk". Oh, and the typical BS response from Blakhawk must of been some "Bunk"

I'm sorry you feel it doesn't meet the dabears seal of approval. I'll try harder next time to provide some info more then company responses and pictures and verified accounts. I'll just go with 'my brother in law, who is a SEAL, says these rock' :lol:

Oh, and if anyone reads the thread (on M4C), pay attention to post #33. It helps explain part of the trigger finger issue as well.

[Dabears!]

Well if you can't see how it could happen, it must be a lie.

I guess the guy on post 10 of that same thread is lying about his sig too.


And the guy with the M&P





Oh and both of the first two have pictures, but i guess those are "bunk". Oh, and the typical BS response from Blakhawk must of been some "Bunk"

I'm sorry you feel it doesn't meet the dabears seal of approval. I'll try harder next time to provide some info more then company responses and pictures and verified accounts. I'll just go with 'my brother in law, who is a SEAL, says these rock' :lol:

Oh, and if anyone reads the thread (on M4C), pay attention to post #33. It helps explain part of the trigger finger issue as well.


apparently you do not know what no offense and I don't see how it could happen mean.
apparently it can happen and I was wrong,
I still don't understand how it manages to work but I guess it does.

[kdogg]

"My training took over. I called my parents."

Christ, I was laughing so hard I almost pissed myself.

[fragged]

apparently you do not know what no offense and I don't see how it could happen mean.
apparently it can happen and I was wrong,
I still don't understand how it manages to work but I guess it does.
I said no offense!

[amandasmith]

Did it just happen?

[nitrous_bob]

HA HA !!! @ 2:42

" the full metal jacket .45 acp entered here....then traveled through the cottage cheese to here "

[Sniper21]

No one is blaming the holster, BUT the design of the holster facilitates a negligent discharge by the user. The design is flawed, and seriously so. The design of the holster lends itself to the premature actuation of the trigger. It is still the primary responsibility of the user to correctly use the holster, but the flaws make the correct usage rather difficult.


Agreed! Engineering is key to many many things. Small overlooked details are all too common to unexpected catastrophic failure in everything from boats to buildings to holster design.

[dpgperftest]

Agreed! Engineering is key to many many things. Small overlooked details are all too common to unexpected catastrophic failure in everything from boats to buildings to holster design.
Is this along the lines of when we hear a car drove into a house its the car or the company's fault ? never the driver !

[Sniper21]

Is this along the lines of when we hear a car drove into a house its the car or the company's fault ? never the driver !


Something like that. Like in the 70-80 when Audi's had the brake and gas pedal installed to close to each other and people depressed them both at the same time on accident and drove into something. Nothing was wrong with the functionality of the designed product, but in terms of usage by people and the likelihood of mistakes by those people, yes the design was flawed.

There have been buildings that were built and stood there for years with no issues....however when years passed and other building were built around it the gusts of winds generated by the air and the added pressures of those gusts of winds by the surrounding buildings caused the other building to fail and collapse. Forgotten details causing catastrophic disaster.

And so on and so on throughout time and history and multiple cultures/countries

[p220c]

I can see the potential for problems with the Serpa holster. I know I won’t be using one.

[stainless1911]

The claims against a serpa are way overblown. Its a simple lever, nothing more.

If you let rocks get into your gun, it wont work either. Take care of your equipment, and it will take care of you.

[Tom Fineis]

The claims against a serpa are way overblown. Its a simple lever, nothing more.

If you let rocks get into your gun, it wont work either. Take care of your equipment, and it will take care of you.

What size sample, and how much personal experience do you have with the holster style in question?

[tote'ngranny]

The claims against a serpa are way overblown. Its a simple lever, nothing more.

If you let rocks get into your gun, it wont work either. Take care of your equipment, and it will take care of you.
:shake:

These guys put this out there for valid reasons .. to PREVENT accidents from a poorly designed piece of equipment. Think about it .. the more parts to a piece of equipment, raises the chances that it will break/fail.



Here is this too ..
jOBEJvMZ_f4

[stainless1911]

I have carried serpa extensively.

[Tom Fineis]

I have carried serpa extensively.

Put some qualifying numbers with it. Number of years, number of drawstrokes, rounds downrange, etc etc.

A sample of one is not a large enough group to judge anything on. You're effectively saying people who have far more experience than you are wrong simply because you have seen something different. That is short sighted and exactly what Dunning and Kruger gained their fame from.

I can find a sample of one CPL holder who has done something stupid with a pistol and shouldn't be carrying one. Does that mean none of us should? Logical foundations for arguments shouldn't change just to help your cause. They remain constant.

[stainless1911]

There have been instances where a small rock, or some snow have jammed them up, that is a known fact. Keep junk out of the holster and they will work fine. Its a very simple design, but just like anything else, it has its limitations.

Get a rock jammed in the barrel of a 1911 and it will give you problems too.

[Tom Fineis]

There have been instances where a small rock, or some snow have jammed them up, that is a known fact. Keep junk out of the holster and they will work fine. Its a very simple design, but just like anything else, it has its limitations.

Get a rock jammed in the barrel of a 1911 and it will give you problems too.

Are you purposely dodging the questions because you realize you maybe aren't the best resource for this debate?

[stainless1911]

Obviously.

Therefore, my experience with these holsters is worthless.

[Tom Fineis]

My job here is done.



I'm not trying to single you out, just attempting to hold people to higher standards when it comes to spewing opinions about any piece of gear or other topic. Everyone loves to tell their story, few actually have the raw data to contribute anything meaningful to the debate/discussion.

[steve243]

JEZZZZ. Bet he's glad the he was'nt useing hollow points that day.

[stainless1911]

My job here is done.



I'm not trying to single you out, just attempting to hold people to higher standards when it comes to spewing opinions about any piece of gear or other topic. Everyone loves to tell their story, few actually have the raw data to contribute anything meaningful to the debate/discussion.

I dont think its necessary to always need some scientific study to prove a point. Experience has value, and cannot always be proven.

When I was young, my dad wanted to teach shop class in the local jr high and high schools. They refused him because he never went to college. He was too busy actually doing the work to have time or money to study for it. He had worked with his father as a carpenter since he was a small boy, had his own construction business, and worked at GM for 21 years. He was also a mechanic in the Army. Too bad he wasnt qualified. Truth be told, he probably had forgotten more about what he wanted to teach, than the teachers had ever known.

[Tom Fineis]

I dont think its necessary to always need some scientific study to prove a point. Experience has value, and cannot always be proven.

When I was young, my dad wanted to teach shop class in the local jr high and high schools. They refused him because he never went to college. He was too busy actually doing the work to have time or money to study for it. He had worked with his father as a carpenter since he was a small boy, had his own construction business, and worked at GM for 21 years. He was also a mechanic in the Army. Too bad he wasnt qualified. Truth be told, he probably had forgotten more about what he wanted to teach, than the teachers had ever known.

I'm all for real world experience.

I asked for yours on this topic, and you refused to provide it.

[tote'ngranny]

There have been instances where a small rock, or some snow have jammed them up, that is a known fact. Keep junk out of the holster and they will work fine. Its a very simple design, but just like anything else, it has its limitations.

Get a rock jammed in the barrel of a 1911 and it will give you problems too.
Now if you had a Raven holster .. a stone wouldn't pose a problem (but then I don't roll around in rocks & stones) As for a rock getting up the barrel? :coocoo:

[tote'ngranny]

I dont think its necessary to always need some scientific study to prove a point. Experience has value, and cannot always be proven.
What point have YOU proven? These guys .. Tom, Steve, Doug and others KNOW from personal experience and have the vid of a former student to prove the Serpa fails during a previous MDFI class.



" Experience has value, and cannot always be proven."

BS and you know it

[aresbykes]

Now if you had a Raven holster .. a stone wouldn't pose a problem (but then I don't roll around in rocks & stones) As for a rock getting up the barrel? :coocoo:


The brand myopic crap on this forum is so silly.

There are several companies out there producing holsters of higher quality/safety than the serpa design.


I've settled on Raven myself, after going through 4 other brands and having massive issues with quality control, and warranty issues.

Raven magically has none of those problems(that I am aware of never seen bad QC or had to deal with warranty problems with them and had looked into it in the past.)


however... ANY kydex manufacturer worth their salt is going to be better than a Serpa in my opinion.

[stainless1911]

Now if you had a Raven holster .. a stone wouldn't pose a problem (but then I don't roll around in rocks & stones) As for a rock getting up the barrel? :coocoo:

The same way that Tom, Steve, Doug have "proven" the faults in a serpa. Im not claiming they are a perfect system without fail, only that they are not a bad system.

[tote'ngranny]

I currently have three Ravens and would never switch. The simplicity (few parts to fail) excellent retention and quality. What bothers me .. scares me is that a poster continues to make assertions & arguments inspite.

[tote'ngranny]

Im not claiming they are a perfect system without fail, only that they are not a bad system.
What? You just won't accept that you are wrong .. will you??

It IS a bad system when it has failed, continues to fail, proven time and again

[Tom Fineis]

Guys, please don't make this a Raven commercial. That is not why I am here and not why I am posting in this thread. I appreciate the MGO customers of ours, but let's not dilute the topic to advertise for brand XYZ.

I'd still be interested in whatever hard data the posters in this thread have. So far, very few have been willing to share.

I have my own experiences/opinions on the holster design in question, and there are plenty of logical arguments that can be made on both sides.

I grow tired of opinions such as "well it works for me" or other babble without any substance behind it. If you're going to take a stand for something, do it with as much data and real world information as you can.

[tote'ngranny]

Understood.

[dougwg]

I've had a serpa on the bench for a year and it works just fine.

[tote'ngranny]

I've had a serpa on the bench for a year and it works just fine.
lol .. I thought you sold it?

[dougwg]

nobody would buy it :(

It even has the uber cool carbon fiber look alike sticker on it.:shrugs:

[Joeywhat]

I know a guy who's had a Serpa on his bench for a while, and it works fine.

[tote'ngranny]

Aawww .. I am so sorry Doug. So, what kind of work does it do .. on the bench ? :scratch:

[dougwg]

Aawww .. I am so sorry Doug. So, what kind of work does it do .. on the bench ? :scratch:
It takes up space and helps keep the work bench from floating away.

[dpgperftest]

The claims against a serpa are way overblown. Its a simple lever, nothing more.

If you let rocks get into your gun, it wont work either. Take care of your equipment, and it will take care of you.
That is the bottom line isn't it ,

[cl76]

The same way that Tom, Steve, Doug have "proven" the faults in a serpa. Im not claiming they are a perfect system without fail, only that they are not a bad system.

You are correct. It isn't a bad system. I used a Serpa with my Beretta 92 for about 1.5 years, carrying concealed and put about 8000 rounds through it, several training classes, and thousands or draw strokes with ZERO incident. That being said, when I spooke to people that had FIRST HAND experience with failures associated with the Serpa design and saw some of these failures with my own eyes in training classes and competitions, I decided to switch to a holster with no moving parts that doesn't have the same chance for failure.

When it comes to potentially saving the life of myself or my family, I want to eliminate as many factors that could cause problems for me. That is why I train, compete, and practice as much as I do in an attempt to eliminate mistakes I would make. The same goes for my gear. If I see a potential problem that could be resolved by changing out a piece of gear, I will do it.

[dpgperftest]

I currently have three Ravens and would never switch. The simplicity (few parts to fail) excellent retention and quality. What bothers me .. scares me is that a poster continues to make assertions & arguments inspite.
Just because he dont agree with you?:facepalm: :slap:

[tote'ngranny]

Just because he dont agree with you?
Not at all. There has been too many reports of failures .. look at the videos .. even the one that I reposted with the cop of screws pulling through. For me a system that has fewer parts, and is well made is less likely to break. The locking mechanism has known to break, locking the gun so that it can't be drawn. These people can't be all wrong ..

http://www.google.com/search?q=Serpa+holster+failures&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[dpgperftest]

Not at all. There has been too many reports of failures .. look at the videos .. even the one that I reposted with the cop of screws pulling through. For me a system that has fewer parts, and is well made is less likely to break. The locking mechanism has known to break, locking the gun so that it can't be drawn. These people can't be all wrong ..

http://www.google.com/search?q=Serpa+holster+failures&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Well its in your own words. #181

One could say that about glocks


I have tryind them and they work just fine I you know what your doing just like a gun

[tote'ngranny]

This discussion THREAD is about the Serpa .. so lets stay on topic ;)

[dpgperftest]

This discussion THREAD is about the Serpa .. so lets stay on topic ;)
:wtf:

I do know alot of people some leos that love them

[tote'ngranny]

:wtf:
Back at you ;-)

Maybe they haven't seen/read the reports. Did you even look at the link that I provided? Pages of reported failures and trainers refusing them in their classes (some warn, but to cover their azzes, insist they sign a waiver)

Anyways ... If you want to use it .. go ahead .. you have been dully warned.

[stainless1911]

So, who makes an affordable OWB retention holster for an XD then? Besides the blackhawks?

I dont want to carry a holster that might fail when its needed it either, but I havent found anything else that I would trust against a possible gun grab. Most decent holsters seem to just squeeze the gun, and are quite expensive.

[tote'ngranny]

So, who makes an affordable OWB retention holster for an XD then? Besides the blackhawks?

I dont want to carry a holster that might fail when its needed it either, but I havent found anything else that I would trust against a possible gun grab. Most decent holsters seem to just squeeze the gun, and are quite expensive.
Well, that has to do with how you carry and where .. to prevent a grab. I apendix for several reasons (which may not work for guys) There are a lot of guys using high quality kydex holsters, who have taught me and many others. I will say this .. if you truly value your life, which is why most will spend for a trustworthy gun, why cut corners on a holster?

Do a search on what the top trainers use.

[stainless1911]

Its not about cutting corners, I would love a nice one, but a hundred bucks is not an option for me.

I open carry almost exclusively, retention is paramount, and I carry primarily on the right hip.

[tote'ngranny]

So does Dougwg.

[stainless1911]

Whats he carry?

[tote'ngranny]

Umm .. I will give you three guesses, and I bet you be right on the 1st one :scratch:

[dpgperftest]

Back at you ;-)

Maybe they haven't seen/read the reports. Did you even look at the link that I provided? Pages of reported failures and trainers refusing them in their classes (some warn, but to cover their azzes, insist they sign a waiver)

Anyways ... If you want to use it .. go ahead .. you have been dully warned.
Yes but for example for every one report you can find on a serpa their is 10 reports on a glock having issues to it all :bs:
If someone uses equipment they dont know how to use this :bs: is going to happen so when :hick: use them they alway blame someone or something other than them selfs:banghead:

[stainless1911]

I do like those ravens. Id like to get my hands on one for a bit. Long enough to see if one of my friends could come up from behind and snatch my (UNLOADED) gun from behind.

[Joeywhat]

I do like those ravens. Id like to get my hands on one for a bit. Long enough to see if one of my friends could come up from behind and snatch my (UNLOADED) gun from behind.

And what does that prove? How about you let me try and grab your gun with whatever retention holster you like? I'll probably have decent success getting it out, since I know how the holsters work - and don't think only good guys know that sort of thing.

[stainless1911]

I know that you could, so could I, but how much better/worse does it retain the gun? If Im not satisfied with it, I'd consider going to something with a strap.

What matters i guess, would be, is the gun secure, and is the wearer confident in carrying it.

[dougwg]

Gun retention is your responsibility, not the holsters.

[stainless1911]

I agree. Equipment matters though, keeping a gun in a broken serpa is more secure than SOB mexican carry. Need to find what works, and then use it.

[tote'ngranny]

I agree. Equipment matters though, keeping a gun in a broken serpa is more secure than SOB mexican carry. Need to find what works, and then use it.
Keeping a gun in a broken Serpa is the worst thing you can do. Have you seen where the lock mechanism broke, locking the gun in place? The guys had to rip the holster apart to get the gun out. If you think the holster (that said for ALL holsters) is operating improperly, possibly unsafe .. broken .. replace it immediately.

[stainless1911]

We are talking about protecting it from a gun grab, not using it.

[dpgperftest]

Keeping a gun in a broken Serpa is the worst thing you can do. Have you seen where the lock mechanism broke, locking the gun in place? The guys had to rip the holster apart to get the gun out. If you think the holster (that said for ALL holsters) is operating improperly, possibly unsafe .. broken .. replace it immediately.
+1

[tote'ngranny]

We are talking about protecting it from a gun grab, not using it.
If you can't USE IT, what the hell are you wearing it for ????

Your logic here and on other posts leaves me to wonder ....

[stainless1911]

It was an example, and it was meant to be ridiculous.:banghead:

[tote'ngranny]

Carrying a gun is a serious business .. whether you OC or CC, and is nothing to joke about.

[stainless1911]

I want joking, but making an extreme hypothetical. A gun that cant be taken is better than a gun that someone has snatched.

[tote'ngranny]

I want joking, but making an extreme hypothetical. A gun that cant be taken is better than a gun that someone has snatched.
wOw .. You just don't get it.



edit .. get your CPL and you wouldn't have to worry so much about a gun grab.

[dpgperftest]

Carrying a gun is a serious business .. whether you OC or CC, and is nothing to joke about.
than get rid of all your guns:banghead:

[stainless1911]

I have a CPL.

[tote'ngranny]

than get rid of all your guns:banghead:
One stupid post on your part Joe.

This IS the Firearms Safety forum ... Not taking gun ownership/handling seriously, would be incredibly irresponsible on my part.


Maybe YOU should get rid of your guns if you don't take it seriously.

[Wolvee]

..........

[dougwg]

I have a CPL.
for now...

[cl76]

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

[stainless1911]

for now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3RwHRpw40s&feature=channel_video_title

[dpgperftest]

this thread it become a baiting and recruiting tool for MpooF site :thdown: MOD's should close it !

[METL]

So, who makes an affordable OWB retention holster for an XD then? Besides the blackhawks?

I dont want to carry a holster that might fail when its needed it either, but I havent found anything else that I would trust against a possible gun grab. Most decent holsters seem to just squeeze the gun, and are quite expensive.


I forget.. do you have 4" or 5" bbl XD? (or 3"?)

Try it. You'll love it.

XD 4" bbl

http://www.opticsplanet.net/safariland-6378-als-paddle-holster-stx-plain-black-right-hand-6378-148-411.html


Around $45 shipped... no excuses...


Now that I have the XD sc I'll be heading over to mich police to test fit the safarilands... (if they have it in stock) I might even head there today.. I"ll report how it works out, but I -love- my ALS for my glock... had a serpa and decided it was hella-stupid, even before all these videos came out....


Sold my Serpa online to some guy name Derek Graber or Grabber or somethin..... ;)

[METL]

Just got back from MPE....


The XD fits SWEET in the safariland ALS 6378. You can get it in that link I posted from opticsland.... $40 plus free shipping.. it's a GREAT holster, and WAAAAAAAAAY better than the serpa.

This is my sub compact in the holster... 3" bbl... the holster is meant for 4"bbl.. but it still fit fine...

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x212/bobdobalita/XD.jpg


I also tried out one of the duty holsters and it was nice... and had that hood that flips up over the top... (triple retention) if you OCd that thing, no one would EVER get your gun.

[stainless1911]

Sweet. I would have to go with the hooded kind, nothing wrong with a little extra security.

[METL]

Sweet. I would have to go with the hooded kind, nothing wrong with a little extra security.


The one pictured above has the thumb release... the duty style is 80 bucks (or so) and you push the hood button down and it swings forward, then you hit the thumb button just like the regular ALS system...

So 2 buttons to push before it comes out, but SUPER secure. (cop holster)


What size barrel do you have?

[stainless1911]

3", the subcompact.

I didnt notice the thumb release.

[METL]

3", the subcompact.

I didnt notice the thumb release.


yeah the one I pictured is actually meant for the 4" barrel, but my sub compact fit it nicely. I OC my glock in an ALS (just like the one pictured) and the retention is great... very VERY quick draw. Easy. Smooth. I highly recommend you get this. Switched from serpa and will never go back. It's just like a serpa but you hit the very discrete button with your thumb... much more natural.

Plus, the ALS is suede lined.... better for finish.

See the opticsplanet link I posted.. $40 shipped with a paddle and a belt loop.

[stainless1911]

Thanks, I'll bookmark it, and when I can, I'll pick one up. Next year, I'll be looking to get one for the M&P too, can't wait. I dont mind the wear on the XD, but I dont want to trash the smith.

[bounty101]

Keep your booger hooker off the bang switch......not the holsters fault by any means at all.....Good Ol' Tex Grebner is an idiot, constantly makes videos on his "training"......the guy's an idiot!!! Look at some of his other vids and you'll see the fairy princess spin when he checks his surroundings after engagement!!!! Too damn funny!!!!

[BardicRaptus]

While having a personal arsenal is fun. I hold to the old adage "Fear the man with only one gun, he knows how to use it." Training with a different rig and different pistol were key factors in this case. Please be safe everybody, guns are tools, but as with any tool if not handled with the respect they deserve injuries will eventually occur.

[TNT.45]

Why did he call his Mom? To see if the meatloaf was done?

[freakinhugebear]

zYvAxLX6OzE


:stooges: :stooges: :stooges: :stooges: :stooges:


Was just searching to see if anyone posted this yet, glad I found this. I watched a vid of this guy years ago railing on a reputable youtuber for no reason who knows his stuff. This guy is a total idiot.

[freakinhugebear]

Keep your booger hooker off the bang switch......not the holsters fault by any means at all.....Good Ol' Tex Grebner is an idiot, constantly makes videos on his "training"......the guy's an idiot!!! Look at some of his other vids and you'll see the fairy princess spin when he checks his surroundings after engagement!!!! Too damn funny!!!!


LOL @ the fairy spin!

[Dabears!]

Was just searching to see if anyone posted this yet, glad I found this. I watched a vid of this guy years ago railing on a reputable youtuber for no reason who knows his stuff. This guy is a total idiot.
if ya havent been by the shop before you oughta come by, to shop or say hi haha i like the way you think sir!

[freakinhugebear]

if ya havent been by the shop before you oughta come by, to shop or say hi haha i like the way you think sir!


Thanks. I just googled your shop and I never knew there was a gun store back there. I have also never seen google reviews that good on a gun store in my life so I must be missing out on something. I'll make my way in one of these days.

[ohrings]

An to think that I almost bought one of the Serpa holsters. I have several holsters for several pistols that will fit several pistols not listed. I will forget about that type of retention.

[THEJUICE9269]

Props for posting a video of yourself doing something not so smart. Hopefully others can learn from this and prevent injury or death.

[JeffM56]

An to think that I almost bought one of the Serpa holsters. I have several holsters for several pistols that will fit several pistols not listed. I will forget about that type of retention.

at least you can disconnect yourself from a piece of gear. some people take it so personally when it turns out what they bought sucks. Just dump it and move on.

[intheburbs]

I guess I never caught that before.

"My training took over. I called my parents....."

I'd like to see how he practices that. Tactical cell draw? LOL

[israelifal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUCqk00SKBU&NR=1&feature=endscreen

As with anything you need to train/teach yourself how to use it.. I use blackhawk holsters in the military and in competition without issues because I've practiced drawing from the holster to keep my finger straight and not put my finger on the TRIGGER until i'm ready to engage my target. Watch again the slow motion of the original video and he had the pistol in his ribs when he hit the trigger a good 12" above the holster..COMPLTETLY his fault not the holster. We all talk about dry fire practice , range practice and safety with firearms but you need to train with your gear also.A lot of the people saying they are dangerous and junk sound like a lot of the anti-gun folk......... Like the people who say if you don't have that DD or Noveske rifle you are wasting money on say a Bushmaster,DPMS,etc... Well I shoot a Bushmaster M4A3 with a comp trigger and Eotech and have won match's against the fancy rifles... It all come's down to knowing your gear and practice with it live and dry. If you don't like the blackhawk holster's thats fine as i really don't like Fobus...

[SingingChris t]

I'm pretty sure nobody likes Fobus.

[D-Man]

I'm pretty sure nobody likes Fobus.

hey, I like fobus.:cry:

[ptwoody1]

hey, I like fobus.:cry:
Is that because it might have came free with the pistol package? I did have a Sepra for my Glock 33 and never had a problem...