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PaulB84
09-07-2011, 09:12 AM
Not sure if this should be here or under legal beagle, mods feel free to move but I think they're ?'s that many will have

#1 If a suppressor is permanently attached to a firearm, is it part of the OAL?

#2 Can you hunt with a suppressor?


thanks

dougwg
09-07-2011, 09:15 AM
1, I would say yes.
2, not yet ;-)

PaulB84
09-07-2011, 09:19 AM
1, I would say yes.
2, not yet ;-)

#1 Interesting.....so a suppressor pinned/welded/whatever to what would be an SBR is kosher?

(Specifics- assuming I get a 7" can or bigger I should be able to permanently attach it to a 9" AR upper and still be good with a buttstock on my lower?

iiiiiiiiinnnnnnteresting......but this is gonna be alot more $$$ than sharing a can like I was planning.....

#2 Damnit! PS does pest control on your own property count as hunting?


Oh shoulda asked this earlier but when are you officially allowed to have a suppressor here in MI? And how did the guys who were storing their toys out of state get to just run and grab them same day without having to transfer or fill out any paperwork? grace period of some kind?

dougwg
09-07-2011, 09:53 AM
1, I wouldn't do this. reason, cleaning.

2, hunting is hunting, pest control is pest control

3, NOW

3.1, They were already transferred into their name. Remember you could own them, you just couldn't possess them in Michigan. Now you can.

PaulB84
09-07-2011, 10:11 AM
1, I wouldn't do this. reason, cleaning.

2, hunting is hunting, pest control is pest control

3, NOW

3.1, They were already transferred into their name. Remember you could own them, you just couldn't possess them in Michigan. Now you can.

LOL can I "control" white tailed "pests" on private property? :idea:

As far as the cleaning thing I was under the impression that some suppressors are designed to be taken apart and cleaned while others were more "glockish" lol

dougwg
09-07-2011, 10:14 AM
LOL can I "control" white tailed "pests" on private property? :idea:
Crop damage permits yes.
Do you have a farm?

As far as the cleaning thing I was under the impression that some suppressors are designed to be taken apart and cleaned while others were more "glockish" lol
Now you're getting into specifics.

Seems you have more questions then just "basic legal" one's.

You got some research to do.

RECON762WT
09-07-2011, 10:26 AM
I see a market for a integrally suppressed AR barrel that has a removable shroud for cleaning, but the baffling was machined in to the actual barrel. Kind of like AAC's 10/22 barrel.



16" barrel, carbine gas system, first 10" actual barrel last 6" baffles. Shouldn't be all that hard to make. Have the barrel mount with a large barrel nut, the shroud lock into the nut, have some kind of griping surface on the shroud.

PaulB84
09-07-2011, 11:50 AM
Seems you have more questions then just "basic legal" one's.

You got some research to do.

Half kidding on both. I don't have private land to hunt and I can't afford a suppressor for only 1 gun.

GarrettJ
09-07-2011, 04:05 PM
#2 Can you hunt with a suppressor?

I'm also interested in this. I haven't dug deep into the hunting regs, but is there an actual prohibition there? Or is it a case where they have always been illegal here, so there was no reason to regulate their use with regards to hunting?


And how did the guys who were storing their toys out of state get to just run and grab them same day without having to transfer or fill out any paperwork? grace period of some kind?
Because no transfer has taken place. I bought my cans several years ago, as a resident of some other states. Just because I came to Michigan doesn't cancel my ownership of them. I just couldn't legally bring them here. Once the law was interpreted that they were legal here, it's just like you said: I could just go get them.

Most NFA firearms require you to get prior approval from ATF before taking them across state lines. However, there is no such requirement for silencers or AOWs. That was why they could be brought in on Day 1, with no waiting for permission.

GarrettJ
09-07-2011, 04:18 PM
...and I can't afford a suppressor for only 1 gun.
Generally, a rifle suppressor designed for one caliber can be used on any other rifle caliber of equal or lesser bullet diameter and pressure. The bullet diameter is obvious (you don't want to push a .30 caliber bullet through baffles with an aperture only large enough to accommodate a .22 cal. bullet.) But you also don't want to shoot a high-pressure rifle cartridge though a can designed for low-pressure pistol calibers. The bullet from a .220 Swift would fit through a .22LR can, but the pressure would likely split the can wide open.

I've got one can that I use for .223, .243, and .300 Whisper. I've got another can I use for .45 ACP, .44 Mag, .44 Spl., .38 Spl., 9mm, .300 Whisper (subsonic), .22LR, and maybe a couple I'm forgetting.

misuppression
09-11-2011, 08:17 AM
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10366_37141_37704-31427--,00.html

Suppressors are illegal for hunting and my guess for larger game they always will be. I am hoping the DNR will legalize at least night hunting like raccoon or coyote and hopefully also varmint hunting like squirrel.

Sheridanarmsllc
09-11-2011, 11:20 AM
Depends...

1. It is considered to be part of the overall length if manufactured as such. For example I have a Mark II ruger manufactured with an integrally suppressed breach/barrel assembly, and the paperwork submitted to the ATF including such information including overall length.

If you purchase a replaceable "upper" breach/barrel/silencer assembly, these are two separate filings, i.e. you'll have paperwork registered with the feds/state for a pistol and NFA paperwork for the suppressor/silencer module or portion of it.

One thing to be careful of is how the overall length is modified. For example, you have three different scenarios that can leave you in or out of compliance;
a) if you have an Uzi machine gun (legal to own in Michigan), you can put a Mossad suppressor on by replacing the barrel retaining nut with the integral barrel nut/suppressor assembly. Completely legal as long as both are registered
b) you have an Uzi pistol, and replace the same with a Mossad suppressor, still legal as in a) as long as the pistol and suppressor are registered
c) you have an uzi rifle and replace with a standard uzi barrel with a Mossad over it. Now the overall length falls less than Michigans 26" rule and it is now a state defined SBR. You would actually need to thread the end of an 18" or longer barrel to legally stick on a suppressor. The length of this looks goofy.

Some clarification; the ATF recognizes both Silencer and Suppressor to be one in the same on all their paperwork, so we use these words interchangeably as the ATF recognizes them as such

As for cleaning, some of the suppressors now (check out the gem-tech website) have models that can be dissassembled and cleaned, others are more permanently configured; some can be run "wet" where a light oil or other appropriate oil is used to very lightly coat the baffles to help reduce carbon buildup

2. interesting wording on the DNR website I think this calls for clarification. The basic statement was that is was illegal to have a silencer on a firearm. Now this is not the case, so what needs to be clarified is actualling hunting with a suppressor since it is now legal to possess.

Hope this helps answer some of the questions you have out there

Phil

Dansjeep2000
09-11-2011, 12:46 PM
Not sure if this should be here or under legal beagle, mods feel free to move but I think they're ?'s that many will have

#1 If a suppressor is permanently attached to a firearm, is it part of the OAL?

#2 Can you hunt with a suppressor?


thanks

#1
I saw a video on youtube awhile back where a guy had a gunsmith weld a sleve in the end of a .22 AR-15 barrel that his can slid into so he could remove the can but still have a 16" barrel length
#2 as far as I know you cannot hunt with a suppressed weapon.

GarrettJ
09-11-2011, 02:10 PM
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10366_37141_37704-31427--,00.html

Suppressors are illegal for hunting and my guess for larger game they always will be. I am hoping the DNR will legalize at least night hunting like raccoon or coyote and hopefully also varmint hunting like squirrel.
The link says it is illegal to:
Use cartridges containing tracer or explosive bullets. A silencer or similar apparatus on a firearm is illegal.

Can we take this back a step? Where does DNR get the authority to make rules, and how far does that authority extend? Is there a rule that says it is illegal to have a silencer for hunting, or does the statement on their website rely on the general state law regarding silencers? The one that we now have an exception to?

Shyster
09-11-2011, 02:29 PM
The link says it is illegal to:
A silencer or similar apparatus on a firearm is illegal.

Can we take this back a step? Where does DNR get the authority to make rules, and how far does that authority extend? Is there a rule that says it is illegal to have a silencer for hunting, or does the statement on their website rely on the general state law regarding silencers? The one that we now have an exception to?
It is MY PERSONAL OPINION that it is now legal to hunt with a silencer in the State of Michigan. That website link predates Bill Schuette's opinion and I can find nothing in the Michigan Compiled Laws that would lead me to believe that taking game with a legally owned and operated, sound-suppressed weapon would be an illegal act.

I DO NOT KNOW HOW A CONSERVATION OFFICER WILL REACT THOUGH. DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK.

EDIT: The Wildlife Conservation Order listed below seems to contradict my opinion.

Joeywhat
09-11-2011, 03:05 PM
In regards to OAL of a firearm with a suppressor permanently attached, we should be careful to remember that OAL will be measured from the butt stock when fully collapsed or folded, to the end of the muzzle where nothing can be removed without tools (i.e. grinding down welds or a pin). For many suppressors, the end cap (muzzle end) can be removed, and the baffles and tube can be taken off. These just unscrew then come off fairly easily.

So remember, if using a suppressor to count towards OAL of your barrel, either use a suppressor that cannot be taken apart without breaking welds/etc. or ensure that your barrel is long enough with whatever portion of the suppressor is actually perm attached to the barrel.

Just an FYI for those looking at doing this.

rjrivero
09-13-2011, 10:30 PM
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10366_37141_37704-31427--,00.html

Suppressors are illegal for hunting and my guess for larger game they always will be. I am hoping the DNR will legalize at least night hunting like raccoon or coyote and hopefully also varmint hunting like squirrel.
Correct. If you're looking for the actual rule, it's in the WILDLIFE CONSERVATION ORDER section 2.1 (6). (I am not a lawyer so I'm not sure how to reference it correctly.)

As far as making a suppressor PERM ATTACHED: I personally would look into having an integral suppressed barrel made for my gun. They're generally quieter, and sleeker. A couple of them I've seen look like a BULL BARREL.

Roundballer
09-13-2011, 11:02 PM
Correct. If you're looking for the actual rule, it's in the WILDLIFE CONSERVATION ORDER section 2.1 (6). (I am not a lawyer so I'm not sure how to reference it correctly.)

Thank you for that, Here is the Michigan.gov Document (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Wcao_134367_7.html). And sure enough, the language is pretty clear:


2.1 Taking of animals; prohibited methods, devices, and weapons; exceptions.
Sec. 2.1 Unless otherwise specified in this order, a person shall not do any of the following:
<snip>
(6) Possess or use an apparatus known as a silencer on a gun while hunting in this state.

rjrivero
09-13-2011, 11:05 PM
Thank you for that, Here is the Michigan.gov Document (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Wcao_134367_7.html). And sure enough, the language is pretty clear:
I'm happy to help.

chewy
09-20-2011, 03:04 PM
according to the Wildlife Conservation Order, Amendment 17, of 2010, section 2.1 paragraph 6, you cant. Of course this was written before the restriction on suppressors was written but I imagine it can still be enforced until they rewrite it to specifically address suppressors.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Crossbow_Regulations_17_328075_7.pdf

M11A1
09-22-2011, 12:20 PM
In regards to OAL of a firearm with a suppressor permanently attached, we should be careful to remember that OAL will be measured from the butt stock when fully collapsed or folded, to the end of the muzzle where nothing can be removed without tools (i.e. grinding down welds or a pin). For many suppressors, the end cap (muzzle end) can be removed, and the baffles and tube can be taken off. These just unscrew then come off fairly easily.

So remember, if using a suppressor to count towards OAL of your barrel, either use a suppressor that cannot be taken apart without breaking welds/etc. or ensure that your barrel is long enough with whatever portion of the suppressor is actually perm attached to the barrel.

Just an FYI for those looking at doing this.

This is 100% correct. Its the same thing that model 1 sales have been doing with the flash hiders my buddy makes. They take a 11.5in barrel and weld (permanently attach) a 5.5in flash hider on it, ie a 16 barrel. This has been done for years. http://www.model1sales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=384&CFID=129659460&CFTOKEN=62766561

bongi11
09-22-2011, 07:48 PM
I'm also interested in this. I haven't dug deep into the hunting regs, but is there an actual prohibition there? Or is it a case where they have always been illegal here, so there was no reason to regulate their use with regards to hunting?


Because no transfer has taken place. I bought my cans several years ago, as a resident of some other states. Just because I came to Michigan doesn't cancel my ownership of them. I just couldn't legally bring them here. Once the law was interpreted that they were legal here, it's just like you said: I could just go get them.

Most NFA firearms require you to get prior approval from ATF before taking them across state lines. However, there is no such requirement for silencers or AOWs. That was why they could be brought in on Day 1, with no waiting for permission.

Is that why you were able to bring it to Manton Subgun shoot 9/3/11

GarrettJ
09-22-2011, 08:37 PM
Is that why you were able to bring it to Manton Subgun shoot 9/3/11
Correct.

Incidentally, I managed something similar and was able to do some suppressed shooting in Missouri on the first day they were legal in that state as well.