New petition at Change.org

[Quaamik]

This was in my e-mail today:



Update about 'Michigan Attorney General Opinion on MCL 750.224' on Change.org

Thank you all for signing this petition and making a difference in Michigan. We are not done yet though, I have started a new petition to compel the Michigan state legislature to modify 750.224b to allow short barreled rifles and shotguns. Please take the time to again express your wishes for 2nd amendment rights in Michigan and sign the new petition.

http://www.change.org/petitions/the-mi-state-senate-amendment-to-mcl-750224b-to-allow-for-possession-of-sbrsbs (http://www.change.org/petitions/the-mi-state-senate-amendment-to-mcl-750224b-to-allow-for-possession-of-sbrsbs)

[7.62 Nato]

already signed

[forrest0872]

signed.

[noob5,000,000]

Signed. *fingers crossed*

[reyno2ac]

Signed! This would be GREAT!

[jmartin]

Yep, I got one too

...and signed

[Wolvee]

Signed.

[Badmunky]

Signed.

[gotcha]

Done.:getsum:

[dgansen]

signed. Make sure to spread the word, and get people that you know to sign as well!

[hotkarl]

I'm all for eliminating as many (which in my opinion, all laws that "infringe our right to keep and bear arms", in any way (so pretty much all gun laws period), are clear and direct violations of the 2nd Amendment, and thus unconstitutional) gun (or any other personal freedom, for that matter; and esp. any specific and express freedom/rights protected by the Constitution) restrictions, registrations and laws as possible.
However, any legislation has the potential to create unwanted, unforeseen negative side-effects; and possibly creating an opposite effect of the good intention behind it (even if it does make a step towards restoration of our 2A rights, it could end-up 2 steps back when the actual laws/changes are put into words (esp. by people that seem to generally have no real understanding or correct knowledge on the topics they are creating laws about), and how those words are then interpreted). Which, in this specific instance, if MI changes it's firearm laws to be consistent w/ Fed. laws, then we could very well lose MI's unique "MI-Pistol" niche which allows us to CC (including just being able to have that loaded extra firepower ready to go (loaded) in your vehicle just in case) a short barrel gun with long gun higher power rnds (not legally "short barrel" but short enough to make CC possible and legal under MI's classification as a "pistol", w/ a CPL) along w/ plenty of other benefits and options made possible by our current legal ability to CC a loaded short(er) ("long") gun w/ a CPL, that if we made our laws the same as Fed. than those weapons ("MI-Pistols") would be classified as long guns which would make them fall outside of MI's CPL use, as they would no longer be a "pistol"/handgun, they would not allowed under a "pistol" license anymore.
Also, I was under the belief that an NFA, machine guns, SBSs/SBRs are classified as such and not a "pistol"/handgun as per legal definitions (in other words, if I remember correctly, those federal definitions/classifications for machines guns, etc. trump other possible classifications- i.e. if you have a real g-18 then it is considered a full-auto, not a pistol (at least in legal terms), and thus not protected under a MI Concealed PISTOL License).

I hope I explained my concern in an understandable way. If anyone has any better info, or citations that could shed some light on my concerns, I would be happy to see it, and be proven wrong. Otherwise, I think I'll have to wait to sign a petition for SBR & SBS legalization in MI that does not include wording to make our laws match the Federal laws. Sorry to be a downer; I hope someone can show/convince me that my concerns are unfounded. Thanks in advance for any info; and if there's an edited or updated petition please let me know; as I fully support legalization and would be happy to support/sign a petition to help do so. I just don't want to sign on to something that could possibly create any new limitations/restrictions on my options for concealed carry (which I do believe should not require a permit or license, etc., nor should any guns require government registration or permits to keep and bear (carry whatever, wherever, and in whatever fashion a free legal citizen prefers) any arms).
Unless the government itself is restricted in it's access and use (i.e. TRUE WMD's, etc.), than no legal free adult citizen should be restricted (in my personal, non-lawyer, interpretation; which is the same interpretation given by/according to the Federalist Paper's, etc. and their explanations & justifications used in persuading the people and states to ratify the Constitution, too; esp. the guarantees of individual rights, and limitations on the power and authority of the government in the Bill of Rights (which was integral to it's acceptance, and it's longevity), which were essential to ratification and acceptance by the people); as the rights in the 2A are to ensure the people can defend themselves and their rights from tyrannical unjust government(s) (as well as criminal individuals, i.e. self-defense against criminal(s) threatening our rights, esp. to our life, and those of our individual families and community members) ever trying to take our rights, and if we can't have the arms they have, then there's no way to realistically defend against a government that reserves access to superior weapons for itself, and deny the people.

Sorry for the length/rant. I'm just torn, and feel bad not supporting any effort to restore our 2A rights; but I'm honestly concerned about the possible negative ramifications this petition (as currently worded) could cause; enough that I can't sign on my support, in good conscious. Unless someone can explain/rebut my concerns about potential negative consequences the, currently worded, petition could realistically cause.

---Any resident legal beagle input/clarification on my concerns would be much appreciated---

Again, sorry about the length; and thanks in advance for any clarifying info.

[Leo Gets]

signed

[misuppression]

The petition I started seeks to modify only MCL 750.224b and specifies clearly that we are petitioning to add provision for civilian registration of sbr/sbs which is is the only item banned by that section of the law. Could the legislature go and change the law to ban something else, yes, but they could do that without a petition. And would they purposely go against the wishes of the petitioners? With the recent AG opinion I'd say my last petition worked pretty well. They can't change the law and ban sbr's because they already are. It can only improve.

I was just coming to MGO to post this topic. My goal is to let the petition roll for a few weeks (to get to the point of annoying the senators) then I will begin mailing Senators and Representatives to begin drafting a bill. We will get this situation sorted out eventually, one way or another. The key is to never stop asking, keep signing and keep sharing the petition.

[Axiom]

Signed.

[MSGT]

Accomplished!!

[Quaamik]

moderators - can you make this thread a sticky? If so, please decide if it would be better to leave it here or put it in the general section.

Thnaks,

[Budget]

I got an email after the suppressors got the OK and signed.

[dirtwheeler90]

Signed

[Pr0jeCt]

Signed and..

Mr. ****,

Thank you for the email.

I appreciate you bringing this to our attention; I’m not familiar with the issue and will certainly be looking into it to see if a bill has been introduced, or if another legislator intends to do so. Senator Robertson is a strong supporter of 2nd amendment rights, and I will make sure to pass your email along to him.

Please contact us anytime!

Jonathan D. Farley

Chief of Staff

State Senator Dave Robertson

P: (517) 373-1636

F: (517) 373-1453

[kevins_garage]

With the recent AG opinion I'd say my last petition worked pretty well.
Someone's pretty full of themselves...

Maybe you should consider putting your powers to use to end world hunger. All you have to do is start a petition on the interwebz, right? I'd do it if I could, but you seem to have the track record of proven results...

[rjrivero]

Someone's pretty full of themselves...

Maybe you should consider putting your powers to use to end world hunger. All you have to do is start a petition on the interwebz, right? I'd do it if I could, but you seem to have the track record of proven results...
WOW. I thought one of the purposes of this board is for 2nd Amendment Activism. When a member steps up and actually does something, folks come out of their cyber cubbies and post this kind of stuff?

Understand that the petition for the suppressor opinion was used as leverage to get his representative to take the issue seriously. Without the signatures on the petition, I highly doubt that the Representatives and Senators would have written formal requests to the attorney general on the suppressor law at all.

Now, the same thing still holds for the SBR/SBS law in Michigan. If you want it to get changed, you have to voice your opinion on the issue and ASK your representatives and senators to consider writing a new law.

It's a much bigger task, but without having the signatures, you have no leverage to persuade your reps and senators that this IS something the law-abiding gun owners of Michigan want. You have no leverage to persuade the reps and senators that this is worth their time.

Sign it if you have any inclination to get things changed, or don't if it's not a big deal to you. But to belittle someone WHO DID get the ball rolling, just sounds like sour grapes. IMVHO.

[misuppression]

Someone's pretty full of themselves...

Maybe you should consider putting your powers to use to end world hunger. All you have to do is start a petition on the interwebz, right? I'd do it if I could, but you seem to have the track record of proven results...

When told suppressors are illegal many people say "that sucks" and go about their day because the big bad government doesn't listen to them :boohoo: . Some people say "we'll change that" and get their government to do what they ask. I did not change this law, nor did I issue an opinion, it was everyone who signed the petition who made a difference. Without telling your government what you want you cannot expect change.

Many have tried to change this in the past and they definitely 'greased the wheels' but it was never accomplished, I don't know why because I was not a part of those movements. But I did know that when requested by a state official the Attorney General is REQUIRED to give his opinion, so my goal was always to get a state official to request an opinion. If you look at this (http://www.dareniott.com/Requests.pdf) document of the official requests that the AG responded to I think you'll see clearly that the state officials were responding to (even paraphrasing) the petition in their requests.

I did not change anything nor do I claim to, but I can guarantee you that everyone telling our representatives what we wanted did!

[kevins_garage]

When told suppressors are illegal many people say "that sucks" and go about their day because the big bad government doesn't listen to them :boohoo: . Some people say "we'll change that" and get their government to do what they ask. I did not change this law, nor did I issue an opinion, it was everyone who signed the petition who made a difference. Without telling your government what you want you cannot expect change.

Many have tried to change this in the past and they definitely 'greased the wheels' but it was never accomplished, I don't know why because I was not a part of those movements. But I did know that when requested by a state official the Attorney General is REQUIRED to give his opinion, so my goal was always to get a state official to request an opinion. If you look at this (http://www.dareniott.com/Requests.pdf) document of the official requests that the AG responded to I think you'll see clearly that the state officials were responding to (even paraphrasing) the petition in their requests.

I did not change anything nor do I claim to, but I can guarantee you that everyone telling our representatives what we wanted did!
I'm not sure I follow. Here and at the petition itself, you claim that "With the recent AG opinion I'd say my last petition worked pretty well." and "...because of this petition, the Michigan Attorney General issued opinion #7260 legalizing suppressors in Michigan." Yet, you then go on to say that "I did know that when requested by a state official the Attorney General is REQUIRED to give his opinion, so my goal was always to get a state official to request an opinion."

The earliest letter in your link is a request to the AG from Meadows dated Jan. 28, 2011. Are you saying your petition (http://www.change.org/petitions/michigan-attorney-general-opinion-on-mcl-750224) was instrumental in getting Meadows to submit the request in the first place back in January? Or are you saying your petition was what ultimately forced the AG to finally do his job and respond to Meadows follow up letter on August 22nd in addition to requests from 3 other lawmakers that were the same or substantially similar?

I looked at the documents in your link and although the first document in your link is a copy of your petition text, I did not see that the petition was specifically mentioned in any of the three letters from lawmakers to the AG, nor in the AG opinion. If I missed it, my apologies - please feel free to point it out to me.

Just so Rivero doesn't think I only come out of my cyber cubbie to throw sour grapes, I do believe in giving credit where credit is due. If you were the first person ever to get a lawmaker to request an AG opinion on silencers and that is what ultimately led to the AG having to do his job and respond to that request, than I applaud you and you should indeed be acknowledged for your efforts to get the ball rolling.

However, you should be acknowledged for what you actually did, not simply because you started some online petition that eventually got 1,205 signatures and may or may not have had anything to do with the AG ultimately having to do his job and respond to a request from a lawmaker.

All of the folks that made requests through Meadows, Jones, Schuitmaker, and Cotter that led to the AG opinion need to be acknowledged. Those are the efforts that ultimately led to this issue getting resolved and they should be given credit for making the request and having lawmakers that actually represent them. Do we know who all of these folks are?

[rjrivero]

<snip>I do believe in giving credit where credit is due. If you were the first person ever to get a lawmaker to request an AG opinion on silencers and that is what ultimately led to the AG having to do his job and respond to that request, than I applaud you and you should indeed be acknowledged for your efforts to get the ball rolling.

However, you should be acknowledged for what you actually did, not simply because you started some online petition that eventually got 1,205 signatures and may or may not have had anything to do with the AG ultimately having to do his job and respond to a request from a lawmaker.

All of the folks that made requests through Meadows, Jones, Schuitmaker, and Cotter that led to the AG opinion need to be acknowledged. Those are the efforts that ultimately led to this issue getting resolved and they should be given credit for making the request and having lawmakers that actually represent them. Do we know who all of these folks are?
This sounds much less sour. ;)

This presents a little catch-22. I know for fact that misuppression went out and set up meetings, and glad handed certain political types. I'm not sure you are going to get him to come out and toot that horn. His goal has been accomplished. The petition has been a pretty instrumental tool in this process.

Yeah. They signed the petition......:thumbup:

I kid.

I do agree that thanks is due to everyone who had a hand in this. We may not ever find out WHO they are entirely, but I do know that the petition, even informal, does help to get the point to the legislature that people want an issue addressed.

[kevins_garage]

This presents a little catch-22. I know for fact that misuppression went out and set up meetings, and glad handed certain political types. I'm not sure you are going to get him to come out and toot that horn. His goal has been accomplished. The petition has been a pretty instrumental tool in this process.
There's not much more I can say as I'm not interested in beginning a debate on the pros and cons of essentially anonymous online petitions. I don't believe petitions like that are terribly instrumental in much of anything. Well, except for letting the other side know that over the course of 8 or more months, all it could muster was 1,205 signatures. Remember, there are over 280,000 cpl holders and likely many more thousands of gun owners in MI without cpls. 1,205 out of that universe is tenths of one percent...



Yeah. They signed the petition.
That makes it sound like you know who "they" are. If so, let's congratulate all of those that had a hand in getting the request/s made of the AG that ultimately led to closure on this issue.

[misuppression]

I'm not sure I follow. Here and at the petition itself, you claim that "With the recent AG opinion I'd say my last petition worked pretty well." and "...because of this petition, the Michigan Attorney General issued opinion #7260 legalizing suppressors in Michigan." Yet, you then go on to say that "I did know that when requested by a state official the Attorney General is REQUIRED to give his opinion, so my goal was always to get a state official to request an opinion."

The earliest letter in your link is a request to the AG from Meadows dated Jan. 28, 2011. Are you saying your petition (http://www.change.org/petitions/michigan-attorney-general-opinion-on-mcl-750224) was instrumental in getting Meadows to submit the request in the first place back in January? Or are you saying your petition was what ultimately forced the AG to finally do his job and respond to Meadows follow up letter on August 22nd in addition to requests from 3 other lawmakers that were the same or substantially similar?

I looked at the documents in your link and although the first document in your link is a copy of your petition text, I did not see that the petition was specifically mentioned in any of the three letters from lawmakers to the AG, nor in the AG opinion. If I missed it, my apologies - please feel free to point it out to me.

Just so Rivero doesn't think I only come out of my cyber cubbie to throw sour grapes, I do believe in giving credit where credit is due. If you were the first person ever to get a lawmaker to request an AG opinion on silencers and that is what ultimately led to the AG having to do his job and respond to that request, than I applaud you and you should indeed be acknowledged for your efforts to get the ball rolling.

However, you should be acknowledged for what you actually did, not simply because you started some online petition that eventually got 1,205 signatures and may or may not have had anything to do with the AG ultimately having to do his job and respond to a request from a lawmaker.

All of the folks that made requests through Meadows, Jones, Schuitmaker, and Cotter that led to the AG opinion need to be acknowledged. Those are the efforts that ultimately led to this issue getting resolved and they should be given credit for making the request and having lawmakers that actually represent them. Do we know who all of these folks are?
Paraphrase:restatement of a text or passages, using other words.

If you look at Rep. Meadows as well as Senator Jones second to last paragraph it was a direct rip from the petition text. All I was saying is that in taking directly from the petition text it was clear that their requests for opinion were in response to the petition. Was that because of me, NO, they are not my representatives. Whoever signed the petition from their districts are the ones that alerted them to the petition. I did communicate directly with Rep. Meadows about submitting a request but that does not matter. All I was ever claiming is that THE PETITION worked, that everyone signing it allowed our legislators to know that we wanted something done.

You can stick your head in the sand and say things will never work out for you if you like. I am going to continue to do what I think can make a change, will it work? I have no idea but I am going to try. What have you done for gun rights?

Oh, and EVERYONE who signed the petition needs to be acknowledged because I received many emails from other Representatives who would have submitted requests but knew that the others already had so they didn't. Collectively everyone made enough noise to get noticed.

[Bill_Money]

Signed :pump:

[collector5401]

signed

[Roundballer]

I have received what looks to me like an automated form letter from my Senator. In reading this I get the impression that he is a RINO, and he is unfamiliar with 750.224b, and didn't go read it before this response was written. The petition is to change Michigan's law so that we may have possession in the state, using the existing NFA proceedures.
I think that the Honorable Senator and I are going to have a few exchanges. I really hate non-answers and self-promoting disingenuous replies. Waving a flag in the face the US Congress with his "Firearms Freedom Act" does nothing to change the law here in Michigan.


Dear Mr. Roundballer:

Thank you for contacting my office regarding the ownership of short barreled shotguns and rifles. I am glad to hear from you, and have the opportunity to share the latest news on this issue.

As you are aware, in Michigan, it is illegal to manufacture, sell, or own a short-barreled rifle/shotgun. Currently, there is no pending legislation to overturn this ruling in Michigan.

However, as an avid outdoorsman and hunter I believe strongly in our second amendment rights to responsibly own firearms. As your legislator, I am currently working on legislation entitled the "Firearms Freedom Act." This bill declares that any firearms made and retained in-state are beyond the authority of Congress and are subject only to state law, thus giving control back to states.

While this does not directly address the manufacturing and sales of short-barreled rifles and shotguns it will give more control back to the state. As your legislator, I will be sure to consider your views concerning SBR/SBS during this legislative session.

Once again thank you for contacting my office. Please do not hesitate to contact me again in regards to this or any other matter.

Sincerely,

Phil Pavlov

State Senator
District 25

[tcb]

signed

[misuppression]

I have received what looks to me like an automated form letter from my Senator. In reading this I get the impression that he is a RINO, and he is unfamiliar with 750.224b, and didn't go read it before this response was written. The petition is to change Michigan's law so that we may have possession in the state, using the existing NFA proceedures.
I think that the Honorable Senator and I are going to have a few exchanges. I really hate non-answers and self-promoting disingenuous replies. Waving a flag in the face the US Congress with his "Firearms Freedom Act" does nothing to change the law here in Michigan.
Interesting I had not heard any rumblings about this in Michigan. This sounds just like the recent Montana FFA which attempts to usurp federal authority. It has some merits but is likely to be legally contested. Whether legal or not though this has no bearing on NFA regulated items and I don't think there is any question that a state law cannot usurp the NFA (I wish).

I strongly encourage anyone who wishes to respond to legislators to do so, however of course always be respectful. "More flies with honey than vinegar" and all that.

[Roundballer]

Interesting I had not heard any rumblings about this in Michigan. This sounds just like the recent Montana FFA which attempts to usurp federal authority. It has some merits but is likely to be legally contested. Whether legal or not though this has no bearing on NFA regulated items and I don't think there is any question that a state law cannot usurp the NFA (I wish).

I strongly encourage anyone who wishes to respond to legislators to do so, however of course always be respectful. "More flies with honey than vinegar" and all that.
Unfortunately I DID know about this, AND it is OLD NEWS.......House Bill 5232 (2009) (http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2009-HB-5232)
This one of the things that set me off. I received that note on the 12th, it has taken me this long to be this civil about it. I will wait a couple of more days, before I respond to him. I will also write out several times what it is I really wish to say to him, and then throw them away. Then I will make the proper application to him to consider sponsoring the changes that we seek.

I fully understand the concept of the honey and flies thing.

[NoviceClays1989]

singed

[will.s]

signed and spread.:thumbup:

[Howard000003]

Done

[BWHaas]

Signed and distributed.

[kevins_garage]

Paraphrase:restatement of a text or passages, using other words.

If you look at Rep. Meadows as well as Senator Jones second to last paragraph it was a direct rip from the petition text. All I was saying is that in taking directly from the petition text it was clear that their requests for opinion were in response to the petition. Was that because of me, NO, they are not my representatives. Whoever signed the petition from their districts are the ones that alerted them to the petition. I did communicate directly with Rep. Meadows about submitting a request but that does not matter. All I was ever claiming is that THE PETITION worked, that everyone signing it allowed our legislators to know that we wanted something done.

You can stick your head in the sand and say things will never work out for you if you like. I am going to continue to do what I think can make a change, will it work? I have no idea but I am going to try. What have you done for gun rights?

Oh, and EVERYONE who signed the petition needs to be acknowledged because I received many emails from other Representatives who would have submitted requests but knew that the others already had so they didn't. Collectively everyone made enough noise to get noticed.
Look, the ag had a job to do when he got a request. The first request came some 8 or more months ago when your petition had far less than 1,205 signature, some of which were bogus by the way as i saw a few folks put stupid names and comments in there, much like what is happening with your current anonymous online petition. It happens though with any anonymous online petition. I don't believe your petition had any bearing whatsoever on the ag doing his job or rendering a decision as he was legally bound to review the matter and respond. The rep letters also quoted the same law as the one in your petition text, does that mean that they lifted that from your petition also?

On the flip side, I also don't think your petition was worthless. However, I think far too much emphasis is placed on taking the easy way out and it is real easy for people to sign an online petition or fire off an email and think they really did something.

As far as what I have done for gun rights, I'm one of a small group of 1,205 people that signed a petition that was instrumental in getting suppressors legalized in MI...:crazy:

[smokinbutts]

did everybody else get an email saying that legislation was in the works? i got an email from tom casperson.

[smokinbutts]

here is tom caspersons email copied and pasted.
----------------------------------------------------
Dear Robert:



Thank you for your e-mail. Currently legislation is being drafted that will clarify the legality of short-barreled rifles and shotguns under Michigan Law as it is constitutionally allowed under Federal law. When there is a bill number assigned, I will let you know so you can track its progress on the Michigan Legislature website.

I appreciate hearing from you regarding this issue.



Sincerely,





Tom Casperson

State Senator

District 38

[NoviceClays1989]

Signed, cant wait till they are legal. Going to be fun at the range

[kevins_garage]

I have a suggestion that I am sure some will take exception to, but you really need to be contacting your reps and senators directly and not focusing on signing online petitions.

Kendra is the legislative liaison out of Tom Casperson's office. Feel free to call or e-mail Tom's office and ask to speak with her or get her a message or otherwise let her know where you are from and where you stand on the issue. She says NRA is supportive and she is interested in gauging how many supporters there are in the state.

You may also want to contact Richardsville's office and do the same since that is who Darren is apparently working with.

I encourage everyone to start finding out when their reps and senators hold coffee hours or town hall meetings in district and start going to those and letting them know where you stand on this issue and asking them to sponsor or otherwise support this legislation. Phone calls and e-mails are great, but you really need to get your faces in front of them.

If anyone in the Farmington/Farmington Hills area is interested, your rep, Vicki Barnett is holding a coffee hour next weekend (Oct. 15) at the Panera Bread on Grand River at 10am. I try to attend all of these as they are on weekends. If anyone in the area is interested in attending, it would be a great way to let her know that she actually has gun owners in her district that are interested in this issue and want to see something done about it. Feel free to contact me if you can attend.

[Quaamik]

did everybody else get an email saying that legislation was in the works? i got an email from tom casperson.

I got a letter saying that if such legislation came up they would take consider my opinion.

Pretty much boilerplate, but all I expect until there is an actual Bill.

[NBK999]

Signed, posted on FB

[enthusiast]

Signed.

[OneShot91]

Signed, and i emailed, called and wrote letters. Here's hoping my hard work was not in vain

[mizitchell]

I signed as well, We need everyone to make a point of reminding everyone to contact their reps and try to get this moving as this is as good a time as any.

[ruedger455]

Is there any updates on this I've been mailing our government officials on this matter

[misuppression]

I have been working with someone in Senator Caspersons office who told me they were drafting a bill, but have not heard anything in a while. I believe this got derailed by the NRA. The NRA is also working with Senators but because of their lobbying power their wishes probably hold more weight. I think one of the things they were pushing was the repeal of the pistol purchase permit, a great thing sure, but meaningless to those of us with CPL's. To the NRA though, that means easier and more guns sales and thereby more potential members. It's ALL politics.

[richtherake]

Signed. I hope this goes through.

Even if you don't intend to ever buy a NFA item you should sign this and show your support for the 2nd amendment.

Law makers taking rights away from Law Abiding Citizens is wrong. Criminals don't legally purchase NFA items so any restrictions from this State are absurd.