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irish
10-03-2011, 04:35 PM
Hey all

Looking for suggestions on where can I take (local would be great to avoid transfer fees) or send my ar-15 (16" barrel) to have it shortened and a sound suppressor pinned on?

Thanks

Gloofy
10-03-2011, 04:55 PM
You just send the upper, no transfer fees involved.

http://www.adcofirearms.com/shopservices/shop_.cfm?code=25

You would not want to Pin your sound suppressor. You would get a muzzle device that has a quick attach and get the matching suppressor. The AAC Blackout for example. Shorten the barrel Pin the blackout and you can screw on the suppressor.

I suppose you could pin the suppressor but If you ever wanted to change it or put the suppressor on another gun you wouldn't be able to. Plus the gun itself would be come a class 3 device because it's perm attached to a suppressor.

Or look for a barrel with an integral suppressor. The barrel would be nfa item not the gun.

UpNorthWOLF
10-03-2011, 05:37 PM
Having heard a short 10" barrel AR with a 6" suppressor, it is still too loud for my liking (kinda' pointless, actually). To each their own, but try it out first if you haven't.

irish
10-03-2011, 05:50 PM
You just send the upper, no transfer fees involved.

http://www.adcofirearms.com/shopservices/shop_.cfm?code=25

You would not want to Pin your sound suppressor. You would get a muzzle device that has a quick attach and get the matching suppressor. The AAC Blackout for example. Shorten the barrel Pin the blackout and you can screw on the suppressor.

I suppose you could pin the suppressor but If you ever wanted to change it or put the suppressor on another gun you wouldn't be able to. Plus the gun itself would be come a class 3 device because it's perm attached to a suppressor.

Or look for a barrel with an integral suppressor. The barrel would be nfa item not the gun.

With a shortened barrel and non-pinned muzzle device wouldn't I be in an SBR which are not permitted in MI? And isn't there a transfer fee on the suppressor?

irish
10-03-2011, 05:53 PM
Having heard a short 10" barrel AR with a 6" suppressor, it is still too loud for my liking (kinda' pointless, actually). To each their own, but try it out first if you haven't.

I have never heard one...is it quieter than a straight 16" barrel with no suppressor? Any suggestions on where I can go to test/hear the comparison in SE MI?

mini4m3
10-03-2011, 06:48 PM
I have never heard one...is it quieter than a straight 16" barrel with no suppressor? Any suggestions on where I can go to test/hear the comparison in SE MI?

With a good can, you can get into the low 140 high 130 dB range with a 10.5'' and a 6'' muffler.

OSHA Safe!

HemiChallenger
10-03-2011, 07:40 PM
Irish, dont waste you time. Just get a suppressor for the host gun and be done with it (which is what gloofy told you). If you really want a 10" barrel get an AR pistol and supress that.

Joeywhat
10-03-2011, 08:38 PM
With a shortened barrel and non-pinned muzzle device wouldn't I be in an SBR which are not permitted in MI? And isn't there a transfer fee on the suppressor?

No, since the suppressor is pinned on...if the muzzle device is pinned and makes the entire barrel/muzzle device combo 16" or longer, it is not a short barrel rifle.

And yes, there is.

pbnationrc
10-04-2011, 01:18 AM
No, since the suppressor is pinned on...if the muzzle device is pinned and makes the entire barrel/muzzle device combo 16" or longer, it is not a short barrel rifle.

And yes, there is.

Ok, I think I am asking the same question and I just want to clarify.

Say I get a PS90, (the civilian US version with the longer 16" or so barrel,) can i cut the barrel, or buy a standard short one, and have a suppressor permanently attached so I am still within the required length to be a normal rifle, I think its 26"(total rifle length, not barrel) right?

Whats this, I have to register the whole barrel if I want to go this route?

Gloofy
10-04-2011, 06:46 AM
Say the Ruger 10/22 for example, you can buy a prebuilt barrel with an integral suppressor. That barrel/suppressor is what's serialized. If someone made a barrel for the P90 that was integrally suppressed with a minimum 16" in length you would register that suppressed barrel as the NFA item.

I'm sure someone builds an integrally suppressed AR15 barrel.

M11A1
10-04-2011, 10:21 AM
I can make this very easy for you. Call up Jeff at Innovative Industries and ask him. He's been a class 3 dealer and class 2 manufacture for over 15yrs giving him the ability to make fullautos. He makes nearly every sight tool and flash hider that you get on a bushmaster or model1 upper. He'll set you right up giving you all of your options.

blackwater na
10-04-2011, 01:22 PM
WELCOME HOME!

Ron

rjrivero
10-07-2011, 06:04 PM
Ok, I think I am asking the same question and I just want to clarify.

Say I get a PS90, (the civilian US version with the longer 16" or so barrel,) can i cut the barrel, or buy a standard short one, and have a suppressor permanently attached so I am still within the required length to be a normal rifle, I think its 26"(total rifle length, not barrel) right?

Whats this, I have to register the whole barrel if I want to go this route?
You can have your barrel cut and have a suppressor pinned on to make the 16" over all length requirement for the Rifle definition.

You would NOT register the whole barrel if you go this route. The device that actually suppresses the sound is by definition the silencer, so the silencer is still the device encapsulated by the outer tube, back to front in the Form 4.

Consider, however, that you still may want to clean this gun. How would you go about doing so without pushing all the carbon, solvent, and such INTO the suppressor? What happens if you loose a patch in the suppressor?

Consider INSTEAD getting a barrel cut down, with a tube perm attached on the barrel that is just a bit larger diameter than your can. You will then be able to thread your can to the barrel (INSIDE the TUBE) and you still may remove the can for regular service to the barrel. You would STILL have the opportunity to move the suppressor from host to host, and your shrouded short barrel rifle would STILL be 16" overall length.

This is a picture of what I'm talking about. These are 9mm AR's with I believe a Gemtech multimount. Not mine, they're on silencertalk.com

I talked to the guys at Adco today, and they'll be making one for me for my Trident-9. Pricing to be determined.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/9mmUppersm1.jpg

This shows the length difference between a 16" barrel with the suppressor and the 16" shrouded barrel with the suppressor.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/DSCN0418w-1.jpg

This shows the shrouded barrel with the suppressor mounted.

GarrettJ
10-07-2011, 07:32 PM
...These are 9mm AR's with I believe a Gemtech multimount...

I talked to the guys at Adco today, and they'll be making one for me for my Trident-9. Pricing to be determined...
On your SBR, you want to think again about burying your Trident under the handguard. After much shooting, the can will sometimes come unscrewed from the mount, leaving the mount attached to the barrel. If the mount is hiding under the handguard, you cannot get at it to remove it without pulling your handguard off. (yes - been there, done that).

I toyed with the idea of doing a 2-piece handguard with a thread coupler between so I could remove the front end. It really just added extra weight and I didn't like how it handled as well, so I ended up taking it off.

(and then I moved to MI, and the shorty uppers have to live on pistol lowers :fur3: )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/GarrettJ/DSC07882.jpg

rjrivero
10-07-2011, 08:26 PM
Garret,

Wise words. I think we found a viable work around. I'll be the guinea pig for this experiment and if it works, they'll offer it in their shop. The extension will be made in 2 pieces. The "collar" if you will threads on the barrel. Gets pinned on. The other end of it is "step threaded" so you thread on the outer tube (lets call it a suppressor shroud), and pin it in place. Then the smaller "step thread" accepts the can WITHOUT AN ADAPTER. The "collar" is itself the adapter, and remains pinned in place. Therefore, it's NOT technically a short barrel rifle. The barrel is pinned to the collar, and the collar is pinned to the suppressor shroud. The suppressor, still removeable will then thread to the collar at the bottom of the suppressor shroud. The I wish I had some artistic talent, and could draw you a picture.

The barrel extender tube will be over the suppressor and under the free float fore end. The barrel nut will be placed over the barrel prior to perm attaching the tube.

Should be a fun project. The collar may end up being a bit on the heavy side, but we'll see what we can do when we have things mocked up. My biggest concern will be keeping the stepped threads clear for the can, but I think it will work out okay.

rjrivero
10-08-2011, 12:08 PM
Excuse my child like drawings. This is kind of what I'm thinking.

http://www.revolverforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=46&pictureid=282


With the suppressor mounted, the overall length would be about 16.5" The barrel with the threaded adapter pinned in place, and the suppressor shroud pinned in place would be 16". That way, you would still have a legal rifle, but in effect have the same feel as a 10" SBR with suppressor.

http://www.revolverforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=46&pictureid=283

This is a sketch of the barrel with the adapter and the stepped threading pattern.

oogabooga289
10-08-2011, 12:51 PM
I've always liked the suppressor shroud "SBR" idea. The first time I saw it was with the Tac Sol SBX (seen below). I think people say that if the vents in the shroud aren't cut, then the shroud itself (without a suppressor installed) could potentially act as a suppressor. Obviously not proven, but worth a mention of concern. Also if the end cap of your suppressor is able to screw off from the tube (not so much of an issue outside of the .22 takedown suppressor realm), some people were having problems with the tube unscrewing from the end cap and it being a pain to get the end cap off of the barrel even with the vents. I can't wait to see how your barrel turns out!

rjrivero
10-08-2011, 12:57 PM
Good call on venting the shroud, oogabooga. We did talk about that during our conversations. I'll hear more from them on Tuesday when the machinist has a chance to look over the ideas presented.

I also have a Liberty Mystic that is threaded to mount on these trident adapters. It's about 2" longer than the trident, but even at 18.5" overall it wouldn't be too bad length wise.

GarrettJ
10-08-2011, 03:05 PM
I really like it. I'd kicked around a similar idea but in a rifle caliber. This is simpler, as you don't have to worry about a gas block or tube. That gives you more flexibility in choosing barrel lengths.




With the suppressor mounted, the overall length would be about 16.5" The barrel with the threaded adapter pinned in place, and the suppressor shroud pinned in place would be 16". That way, you would still have a legal rifle, but in effect have the same feel as a 10" SBR with suppressor.

Have you ever gotten your can stuck on the barrel? Anti-sieze helps, but its been known to happen from time to time. I'm thinking you want a little more than half an inch if the can exposed. You want at least enough that you can get a strap wrench on it. I would go an inch or more, personally.

Be sure to post when you get pricing. I'd be interested in one.

eta: make the tube out of aluminum. All that weight out front starts to add up.

rjrivero
10-08-2011, 04:46 PM
I really like it. I'd kicked around a similar idea but in a rifle caliber. This is simpler, as you don't have to worry about a gas block or tube. That gives you more flexibility in choosing barrel lengths.



Have you ever gotten your can stuck on the barrel? Anti-sieze helps, but its been known to happen from time to time. I'm thinking you want a little more than half an inch if the can exposed. You want at least enough that you can get a strap wrench on it. I would go an inch or more, personally.

Be sure to post when you get pricing. I'd be interested in one.

eta: make the tube out of aluminum. All that weight out front starts to add up.
1/2" is just large enough for my narrow strap wrench. I use copper anti-seize on all my suppressors. For he .22's it makes it A LOT easier to take apart. I even put that stuff on the baffles on my Gemtech Alpine. As soon as I have the info on pricing, I'll let you know what they come up with.

rjrivero
10-20-2011, 03:43 PM
Update: Per GarretJ's recommendations on using an aluminum tube, ADCO now has the ball on this. They will be changing things a little bit to make it more cost effective. They estimate the step thread adapter alone would run $150 alone. They will be mocking one up shortly and the price will be dependant on the work they need to do to make these happen. Adco also recommends at least 3/4 inches in case the suppressor gets put on dry and ends up getting a little carbon on the threads. I'll update as soon as I have the details.

kevins_garage
10-28-2011, 10:50 AM
Update: Per GarretJ's recommendations on using an aluminum tube, ADCO now has the ball on this. They will be changing things a little bit to make it more cost effective. They estimate the step thread adapter alone would run $150 alone. They will be mocking one up shortly and the price will be dependant on the work they need to do to make these happen. Adco also recommends at least 3.4 inches in case the suppressor gets put on dry and ends up getting a little carbon on the threads. I'll update as soon as I have the details.
Is that really 3.4 inches or did you mean to type 3/4 inches?

I am working on pretty much the exact same type of shroud setup for a 9mm AR build. I have a 7" barrel that is already threaded 1/2"x36 and was just going to have threads added to the larger OD just behind the muzzle threads to accept a 10" aluminum shroud that would be pinned on.

Is there a reason you are going with a threaded adapter for the shroud and the can?

Anyone have any suggestions on decent cans that are about 10" OAL?

rjrivero
10-30-2011, 04:49 PM
Is that really 3.4 inches or did you mean to type 3/4 inches?

I am working on pretty much the exact same type of shroud setup for a 9mm AR build. I have a 7" barrel that is already threaded 1/2"x36 and was just going to have threads added to the larger OD just behind the muzzle threads to accept a 10" aluminum shroud that would be pinned on.

Is there a reason you are going with a threaded adapter for the shroud and the can?

Anyone have any suggestions on decent cans that are about 10" OAL?
That should be 3/4" as you suggest. Sorry about the typo. They were supposed to have the prototype in my hand already, but things came up and we will be getting it this week.

The problem you'll find with your 7" barrel is finding a suppressor that is 10" long. The longest 9mm I have seen is the Liberty Mystic, and that is about 8".

To make this project work, it'll require a barrel of about 10" or so. Give or take with "standard" 9mm suppressors.

The threaded adaptor was in order to make it modular, so you could match the suppressor mount to either a Trident-9 or a Gemtech Multimount, or what have you.

After talking to ADCO, it may make it cost prohibitive to do it that way. They're going to design it a bit differently and be able to offer it at a lower price point.

It may require a "sacraficial" adapter to screw onto the barrel which may or may not come off when you twist off the suppressor. That's okay with me, considering this is the ONLY fixed mount gun I run this suppressor on.

Either way, when I get the prototype in my hand, I'll post up. When they decide on a price, I'll post that too.

GarrettJ
10-30-2011, 07:34 PM
The problem you'll find with your 7" barrel is finding a suppressor that is 10" long. The longest 9mm I have seen is the Liberty Mystic, and that is about 8".
You must only be looking at multi-purpose cans then. There are a lot of subgun cans that are around 12" long. Here's my Bowers CAC-45 on a 4-ish inch barrel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/GarrettJ/DSC07944.jpg

It fits almost perfectly under a YHM forend, which is great if you are doing an SBR. It doesn't leave any room for a permanent extension tube under the forend for a project like yours, though. You would have to figure a way to permanently attach the forend directly to the barrel. Or you could go with a larger diameter forend, like the one from JP Enterprises (http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.4_hg.php). The other option would be to pin and weld the forend to the upper receiver. You may need an ATF "mommy may I" letter on that though, since technically it wouldn't be attached to the barrel, even though it could no longer be removed.



It may require a "sacraficial" adapter to screw onto the barrel which may or may not come off when you twist off the suppressor.
I'd have to think about that one. It may work better to permanently affix your thread mount to the barrel. You will need to get another one for your other guns anyway, in the event the adapter doesn't come off the barrel. Or not. Like I said, I'd have to think about how best to do that one. Only, once the extension tube is installed, it would be too late to change your mind.

I'm driving right past ADCO's shop tomorrow and back again on Tuesday. I keep thinking I should bring them the barrel from my P9S to put a threaded extension on it.

rjrivero
10-30-2011, 10:11 PM
Garret,

I'm thinking of the Trident and multimount. They are both 1.375" diameter and both about 6" long. Probably the most popular 9mm cans over the last 5 years or so. AAC Ti-Rant is similar in dimention, isn't it?

If you're going by Adco, stop in on Tuesday. (They aren't open on Monday.)

kevins_garage
11-01-2011, 11:01 AM
That should be 3/4" as you suggest. Sorry about the typo. They were supposed to have the prototype in my hand already, but things came up and we will be getting it this week.

The problem you'll find with your 7" barrel is finding a suppressor that is 10" long. The longest 9mm I have seen is the Liberty Mystic, and that is about 8".

To make this project work, it'll require a barrel of about 10" or so. Give or take with "standard" 9mm suppressors.

The threaded adaptor was in order to make it modular, so you could match the suppressor mount to either a Trident-9 or a Gemtech Multimount, or what have you.

After talking to ADCO, it may make it cost prohibitive to do it that way. They're going to design it a bit differently and be able to offer it at a lower price point.

It may require a "sacraficial" adapter to screw onto the barrel which may or may not come off when you twist off the suppressor. That's okay with me, considering this is the ONLY fixed mount gun I run this suppressor on.

Either way, when I get the prototype in my hand, I'll post up. When they decide on a price, I'll post that too.
I talked to Liberty and their Mystic can is about 8 3/8" by itself, but you need an adapter to run the can and the threaded barrel adapter takes the overall length to almost 10" - they indicated about 9 3/4". I think a 7" 9mm barrel with a 9" or so shroud should work just fine.

The aluminum tube and bar stock is pretty cheap - I found 1.5" tubing and some bar stock to make the adapter for under $20 delivered, so I hope ADCO's pricing is reasonable. If not, it seems like a fairly straightforward DIY job.

rjrivero
11-01-2011, 09:08 PM
I talked to Liberty and their Mystic can is about 8 3/8" by itself, but you need an adapter to run the can and the threaded barrel adapter takes the overall length to almost 10" - they indicated about 9 3/4". I think a 7" 9mm barrel with a 9" or so shroud should work just fine.

The aluminum tube and bar stock is pretty cheap - I found 1.5" tubing and some bar stock to make the adapter for under $20 delivered, so I hope ADCO's pricing is reasonable. If not, it seems like a fairly straightforward DIY job.
The issue with having the barrel extension is that you would either use an adaptor, or you would make the adaptor part of the barrel extension. I have a Mystic that is threaded to accept the adaptors for a Trident-9 since I already have one, it makes swapping from host to host easier.

The mystic is about 8" long, and the barrel shroud would need to be about 7 1/4" making the actual barrel about 8 3/4 if you were going to make it dedicated for the Mystic. Since I'll be using a Trident as well as the mystic, I need to make the shroud shorter to accommodate the shorter Trident-9 as well.

Material cost isn't that big a deal, but I don't have the lathe required to make the bits and pieces. I *may* have access to one but you know how that goes.

GarrettJ
11-01-2011, 09:25 PM
The mystic is about 8" long, and the barrel shroud would need to be about 7 1/4" making the actual barrel about 8 3/4 if you were going to make it dedicated for the Mystic...
Careful. Don't forget you have about half an inch of overlap where the can & barrel / adapter thread together. So in this instance 7.25 + 8.75 does not equal 16. It only gets you to around 15.5".

rjrivero
11-02-2011, 11:21 AM
Careful. Don't forget you have about half an inch of overlap where the can & barrel / adapter thread together. So in this instance 7.25 + 8.75 does not equal 16. It only gets you to around 15.5".
Agreed. I don't have the actual drawings in front of me. These numbers are just ball park.

TSI27
11-04-2011, 08:00 PM
Having heard a short 10" barrel AR with a 6" suppressor, it is still too loud for my liking (kinda' pointless, actually). To each their own, but try it out first if you haven't.
^^ Agreed, was going to go this route with a 14.5" upper w/ 1.5" quick detach flash hider but the fact that it will still be loud didn't seem like it was worth the trouble/cash to suppress a AR. Sure it will be quiter, but those rounds are still breaking super sonic speeds and Ive seen subsonic ammo cause feeding issues, not to mention how expensive they are.

What I DO plan on doing, heard great reviews on the Umarex HK MP5 .22LR so I plan on purchasing a SD6 model, chopping and threading the barrel and permanently attaching the faux suppressor shroud onto the outer barrel. This way I can always be 16" legal and can remove a suppressor off for cleaning. If anything is going to be suppressed or worth it, I think a barely audible 22LR MP5 SD6 would be pretty bad ass.

GarrettJ
11-04-2011, 09:30 PM
Hey rjrivero, you got this thing installed on an upper yet?

ADCO posted pictures of your barrel over on ARFCom (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/355240_For_states_that_allow_Suppressors_but_not_S BRs.html).

We'd like to see how the final product looks. (yeah - we're a little impatient).

rjrivero
11-05-2011, 09:25 AM
Hey rjrivero, you got this thing installed on an upper yet?

ADCO posted pictures of your barrel over on ARFCom (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/355240_For_states_that_allow_Suppressors_but_not_S BRs.html).

We'd like to see how the final product looks. (yeah - we're a little impatient).
ROFL. Not quite yet. They built that with the WRONG barrel nut. I'll have the correct one in a few more days.....:hot:

Edit: I just got back from ADCO. We're going to have to make the shroud a smaller diameter to fit under a YHM rail. Right now the tube is 1.75 and the collar they have on it is 1.93 or so. I'll need to talk to the machinist to see if we can fix that so it can be covered by the rail.

rjrivero
12-11-2011, 02:50 PM
ROFL. Not quite yet. They built that with the WRONG barrel nut. I'll have the correct one in a few more days.....:hot:

Edit: I just got back from ADCO. We're going to have to make the shroud a smaller diameter to fit under a YHM rail. Right now the tube is 1.75 and the collar they have on it is 1.93 or so. I'll need to talk to the machinist to see if we can fix that so it can be covered by the rail.
Well, we're off and running.

I discussed some of my ideas with ADCO. They've been really receptive to this idea and we got a mock up done.

The tubing I had to provide, it's made of 2024 Aluminum. It will fit under a YHM rail and a standard suppressor fits under the shroud.

The overall length of the barrel plus extension is 16.25" The barrel is threaded twice the normal length. The collar or adapter is threaded to fit the barrel, and the tube is press fit on the collar. The parts:
http://www.revolverforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=46&pictureid=285

I went ahead and drilled the adapter and pinned it to the barrel. Then I pinned the shroud to the adapter and welded it in place to be in compliance with the ATF requirement for blind pinning.

Here it is mocked up with a YHM Spectre Lenghth handguard over the top of it and a SWR Trident-9 under the hand guard.

The Mock Up:
http://www.revolverforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=46&pictureid=284

It will be getting the blackout treatment with some KG this week, as I just finished sanding it smooth from the blind pin welding treatment and should be back by in my hand by the end of the week.

So far, I have bought the aluminum tube for this project. I have made the drawings for the build, and paid the machinist at ADCO their hourly rate to get this made up. I did the pinning and welding myself.

This one is made for the thread on mount for the Trident-9. The adapter threads to the barrel and then threads to the suppressor. It is feesable to have the adapter get stuck on the barrel under the shroud. I'm not really concerned if it does. I can still thread the suppressor to the adapter even if it IS stuck on the barrel. The adapter may be "stuck there" but it'll still be useable. It cost me less for the adapter than it would have cost to have them thread the shroud adaptor for the suppressor as my original plan. This way, the design can be adapted to work with the Tri-Lug adapter, pretty easily.

I don't know if ADCO will offer this service, and if they do, I don't know what the price will be. If you're interested, I would recommend you contact steve@adcofirearms.com or dave@adcofirearms.com and let them know you are interested in a shrouded barrel like the one they made for rjrivero.

This one is going to go to my brother for Christmas. The next one I have them building is going to be mine. And the third one is for my 300 AAC Blackout barrel. ;)

rjrivero
01-02-2012, 01:22 PM
Here's the last picture of the shrouded barrel wearing the Trident-9. With the Trident it brings it to 17" of barrel length. The rifle is a Lone Wolf Dist. 9mm Lower with a Rock River upper. The bolt was narrowed and ramped by Adco in Sylvania, OH. The handguard is a YHM Spectre length. Eotech on top with MBUS "irons." Runs great and handles very well. Lighter than the 16" barrel version. This thing runs QUIET!

dhrith
01-02-2012, 03:39 PM
Here's the last picture of the shrouded barrel wearing the Trident-9. With the Trident it brings it to 17" of barrel length. The rifle is a Lone Wolf Dist. 9mm Lower with a Rock River upper. The bolt was narrowed and ramped by Adco in Sylvania, OH. The handguard is a YHM Spectre length. Eotech on top with MBUS "irons." Runs great and handles very well. Lighter than the 16" barrel version. This thing runs QUIET!

Very slick. Nice job.