Anyone working the DNR for suppressed hunting?

[UpNorthWOLF]

Just checking to see if anyone out there has spoken to DNR and political muckity-mucks about it. Seems logical...

[HemiChallenger]

AFAIK they already said no supressors for hunting, unless its animal control on private property from destructive species. No I did not saty at a holiday inn express last night.

[dekulaw]

I spoke with one of the Sargents in the Gaylord office at length. It does not appear that he had any issues with the use of suppressors in hunting but they still had not received any policy etc. from Lansing. His suggestion was to write both the DNR and Attorney General requesting opinions regarding the same. State Police probably need to be addressed as well.

[rjrivero]

I spoke with one of the Sargents in the Gaylord office at length. It does not appear that he had any issues with the use of suppressors in hunting but they still had not received any policy etc. from Lansing. His suggestion was to write both the DNR and Attorney General requesting opinions regarding the same. State Police probably need to be addressed as well.
That's interesting. My understanding is that The Wildlife Conservation Order carries the weight of law.

I assumed, from our previous phone conversations, that this meant that the only way to change this is by passing another law.

The course of action suggested here implies that the DNR and/or the AG have the authority to change the Wildlife Conservation Order that governs suppressor use for hunting. Is that indeed the case?

The only thing that I can think of in recent history is the debate over baiting deer in Michigan. I remember it was once legal to do so, but with the onset of Tuberculosis found in some deer populations, the practice was banned.

That ban is in the current Wildlife Conservation Order(s). How did it get there? Was it by order of the DNR, or by legislation?

This becomes a significant issue, because obviously, if the DNR has the authority to amend the Wildlife Conservation Order(s) then they could rule suppressors for hunting are okay without congressional involvement. (In my view, a much easier win.)

[rjrivero]

VERY interesting.

I just started scratching the surface on this issue with the DNR. It seems that the Wildlife Conservation Orders are ammended periodically by recommendations from the DNR to the Natural Resources Commission. The Commision then debates the recommendations and either approves them or dis-approves them. They then change the Wildlife Conservation Orders as appropriate.

Therefore, as dekulaw pointed out, writing the DNR voicing your opinion may indeed be a viable way of getting suppressors legalized for hunting.

Contrary to MY understanding, there ARE DNR Rangers who fully support the use of suppressors for hunting in Michigan.

I plan on doing more research as time allows. I think it would help if we could find States that DO allow suppressors for hunting and some history from those states, including statistics on poaching with and without the use of suppressors to bolster an argument.

[drewyork]

Who's going to know? Unless you buy a cheap one.:sniper2:



joke

[BardicRaptus]

Please forgive my ignorance, but now that the AG has made an official statement regarding the legality of owning a suppressor that doesn't mean you can use it in any application where you would normally be using a firearm? I do understand not permitting hunters to hunt with full auto, but a suppressor seems like apples and oranges. So much for that "...shall not be infringed" part huh?

[wrinkledshirt]

...So much for that "...shall not be infringed" part huh?

If you're just figuring that out now, I suggest you take up heavy drinking. :-P

[rjrivero]

Please forgive my ignorance, but now that the AG has made an official statement regarding the legality of owning a suppressor that doesn't mean you can use it in any application where you would normally be using a firearm? I do understand not permitting hunters to hunt with full auto, but a suppressor seems like apples and oranges. So much for that "...shall not be infringed" part huh?
You may think so, but the AG has written an opinion clarifying the law regarding ownership of suppressors.

The Wildlife Conservation Orders are the "laws" regarding hunting in Michigan, and they clearly state that hunting with a suppressor is illegal.

They are now legal in Michigan to own and use, but you can't hunt with them until and/or unless the Wildlife Conservation Order is ammended.

The best way to do so, is as dekulaw suggests: Write the DNR and the AG.

Wildlife Conservation Orders do not go through the legislature to be amended or changed. They go through the Natural Resources Commission.

[rjrivero]

If anyone is interested, this is the contact information for the Natural Resources Commission. I would recommend writing letters to each of the individuals on the Commission if you're interested in using suppressors for hunting in Michigan.

Commissioner Names and Addresses

Mary C. Brown
1624 Grand Avenue
Kalamazoo, MI 49006
269-344-0536
Appointed: 1/6/04
Reappointed: 2/6/08
Term Expires: 12/31/11
Democrat

Hurley J. Coleman, Jr.
2405 Bay Road
Saginaw, MI 48602
989-752-7957 (Office)
Appointed: 1/10/07
Reappointed: 2/6/08
Term Expires: 12/31/11
Democrat

John Madigan
831 W. Munising Avenue
Munising, MI 49862
906-387-4468 (Office)
Appointed: 1/1/03
Reappointed: 4/6/07 and 1/13/11
Term Expires: 12/31/14
Republican

John Matonich
9502 Shyre Circle
Davison, MI 48423
810-653-4817 (Office)
Appointed: 7/1/10
Term Expires: 12/31/13
Democrat

Tim Nichols (Chair)
111 Birchwood Lane
Cadillac, MI 49601
517-373-2352
Appointed 5/6/09
Term Expires 12/31/12
Democrat

J. R. Richardson
36658 McGuire Road
Ontonagon, MI 49953
906-885-7187 (Office)
Appointed: 4/6/07
Reappointed: 1/13/11
Term Expires: 12/31/14
Republican

Frank C. Wheatlake
Reed City Power Line Supply
420 N. Roth Street, Suite A
Reed City, MI 49677
231-796-5491 (Home)
231-832-2298 (Office)
Appointed: 2/6/01
Re-Appointed: 5/3/05 and 5/6/09
Term Expires: 12/31/12
Independent

Department of Natural Resources
Executive Division
Attention: Debbie Whipple
P.O. BOX 30028
Lansing, MI 48909
517-373-2352
whippled1@michigan.gov

[rjrivero]

Currently I'm finding information that 19 states allow hunting any and all game with suppressors.

I have found that 4 additional states allow using suppressors for predators/nuisance animals.

The best information I have found on this issue is HERE. (http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=928&start=50)

[rjrivero]

This is an example of a letter I wrote for this purpose. I would encourage anyone and everyone who has an interest to copy it and use it as you wish. I would encourage you to send it to the only email provided in the contact information for the Commission.

Department of Natural Resources
Executive Division
Attention: Debbie Whipple
P.O. BOX 30028
Lansing, MI 48909
517-373-2352
whippled1@michigan.gov

It would not hurt to print copies and send them to each of the members of the commission.



rjrivero
address
city, ST ZIP

October 10, 2011

Mary C. Brown
1624 Grand Avenue
Kalamazoo, MI 49006
269-344-0536

For the removal of silencer restrictions for hunters in Michigan.

Ms. Brown,

I am writing you this letter to request consideration for legalizing Silencers for use in Michigan for Hunting. As you may be aware, on September 2, 2011, the Attorney General Bill Schutte wrote an opinion letter that provides a proper transfer stamp from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives National Firearms Branch is indeed approval for an individual to own and use silencers in Michigan. (Opinion #7260)

However, as you know, The Wildlife Conservation Order Chapter 2.1 (6) states a person may not possess or use a silencer while hunting in Michigan.

Up to this point it hasn't been an issue for someone wanting to hunt in Michigan, because Michigan didn't allow for private silencer ownership. However, in light of the Attorney General Schutte's opinion #7260, it may be prudent to review this restriction and remove it from The Wildlife Conservation Orders.

Silencers or suppressors do NOT make a gun shot “quiet” per se. A good silencer can reduce a typical hunting rifle gunshot from 160dB to about 130dB. A 30dB reduction is approximately the same as a good pair of ear plugs or ear muffs. The benefit is that many hunters do not like to use ear plugs or ear muffs because they can not hear game approaching. However, it becomes a health liability not to shoot without hearing protection.

Silencers would also reduce sound pollution for our neighbors in and around hunting land in Michigan.

There are 19 states in the Union that allow unrestricted use of silencers while hunting. I urge you to make Michigan the 20th.

Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,

rjrivero

[obersaber]

I understand that there is a concern over noise associated with firearm discharge in the Michigan Huron-Manistee National Forest semi primitive, non motorized or wilderness areas of the forest.

I would like to offer a good faith gesture to appease non hunters, naturalists and Michigan citizens who are opposed to the sound of gunfire.

Make suppressors legal for hunting in Michigan and help hunters and non hunters coexist.

Many states already allow legally owned suppressed firearms for hunting all types of game animals.

Citizens who legally own and use firearm suppressors are responsible, dedicated and above all, law abiding and not likely to jeopardize a substantial investment of time, energy and capital to break federal and state laws while using a suppressor.

I personally suffer from tinnitus caused by discharging firearms during deer season over the past 45 years. I do not want to see my children or grand children suffer the same fate.

My primary concern is home defense where the ability to hear and listen is imperative to identify and communicate with family members as well as locate possible threats. The prospect of discharging a firearm in an enclosed space is a legal, ethical and physically damaging proposition that I do not contemplate lightly!

In the woods, the ability to hear and listen helps hunters safely identify legal game animals as well as the target and beyond.

Firearm suppressor use will make the sport of hunting safer and quieter.

Please consider including your support for revising Michigan hunting laws to allow the legal use of firearm suppressors.

[Jailer]

Well letters to the DNR are going to be your only route unless you can get a senator, rep or judge on board. You can't just write the AG and ask for an opinion.

[obersaber]

And I also sent letters to all the above listed DNR officers. It only cost $5.
I hope that anybody who wants to take full advantage of all the benefits that a suppressor has to offer in the hunting woods will do the same. Sometimes our elected officials need some helpful advice and common sense suggestions to help them make wise decisions. They want to hear from you! Sending a letter by mail helps out the postal service and is more persuasive and personal than an email. Please don't wait for someone else to step up on your behalf. Don't trust the government to know how you feel without actually telling them how you feel. Now is the time to act. Do it!

[rjrivero]

And I also sent letters to all the above listed DNR officers. It only cost $5.
I hope that anybody who wants to take full advantage of all the benefits that a suppressor has to offer in the hunting woods will do the same. Sometimes our elected officials need some helpful advice and common sense suggestions to help them make wise decisions. They want to hear from you! Sending a letter by mail helps out the postal service and is more persuasive and personal than an email. Please don't wait for someone else to step up on your behalf. Don't trust the government to know how you feel without actually telling them how you feel. Now is the time to act. Do it!
I agree. Though I now live in Ohio, I still return to Michigan to use my rifles for deer hunting every season. I wrote my letters. I urge everyone to write a letter and send them to the addresses noted above!!!

[TWS-Mike]

I received a reply back in writing today from one of the board members!

http://db.tt/tMtO3ziJ

The response was basically favorable to neutral, but he also mentioned that they had not met to discuss it yet.
WITH THAT, Everyone who wants to see full use of their suppressors, and preserve their hearing, should be writing those letters asap if you want to be heard on this issue. 8-)

Took me all of 15 minutes to write, post and mail em.
I have google docs of the mailing labels. (again will post link, when I get home)

He did mention in his reply, that the topic of the potential for poaching use was a possible concern.

My plan at this point, is to reply back and address that point specifically. (and politely)

I will likely include a copy of the NRA article that I posted in another thread, as well.

I actually think I will send a followup letter with the same to each of the members as well, addressing the "poaching" point, as that seems to be the foremost thing I hear when talking to other hunters about suppressor use.


If that doesn't get a positive response, I guess I'll push for automatic air horns to be required on all bows and crossbows.... :roll: j/k

[GarrettJ]

If that doesn't get a positive response, I guess I'll push for automatic air horns to be required on all bows and crossbows.... :roll: j/k
That's always been my response to the "poaching" argument. They seem worried about a relatively small number of hunters are willing to jump through all the NFA hoops to legally get a suppressor. But there are tens or hundreds of thousands of completely unregulated bows and arrows out there, and they make as little or less noise than a suppressed rifle.

[TWS-Mike]

I have drafted the following response to the reply I received.
I plan to send a slightly revised version to the rest of the commissioners
covering these same concerns.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2374852/forum/DNR%20Letter-matonich-REPLY1-1-blotted%20out.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2374852/forum/DNR%20Letter-matonich-REPLY1-2-blotted%20out.pdf


Reply Letter complete PDF (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2374852/forum/DNR%20Letter-matonich-REPLY1-blotted%20out.pdf)

[rjrivero]

I have drafted the following response to the reply I received.
I plan to send a slightly revised version to the rest of the commissioners
covering these same concerns.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2374852/forum/DNR%20Letter-matonich-REPLY1-1-blotted%20out.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2374852/forum/DNR%20Letter-matonich-REPLY1-2-blotted%20out.pdf


Reply Letter complete PDF (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2374852/forum/DNR%20Letter-matonich-REPLY1-blotted%20out.pdf)
Nicely Done, Mike. Bravo!

[rjrivero]

I found a reference from Gemtech that shows that unrestricted hunting with suppressors is legal in 23 states. LINK HERE. (http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/pdf/HUNTING%20WITH%20SUPPRESSORS-STATE%20LAW%20COMPILATION.pdf)

[TWS-Mike]

I just saw this on Another forum as well.
Heading in the right direction.

http://www.macon.com/2012/01/26/1879698/senate-panel-oks-hunting-with.html

[Flash-hider]

Have there been any organizations discussing this?

State Rep and Senator contact would be good too.

[rjrivero]

Have there been any organizations discussing this?

State Rep and Senator contact would be good too.
See the first page, posts 3-10 in particular. Dekulaw has already gone through the details on the easiest way to get this done. It doesn't require creating a new law on the books. It requires the permission from a commission in the DNR.

If they okay it, then hunting with suppressors will be legal.

[TWS-Mike]

See the first page, posts 3-10 in particular. Dekulaw has already gone through the details on the easiest way to get this done. It doesn't require creating a new law on the books. It requires the permission from a commission in the DNR.

If they okay it, then hunting with suppressors will be legal.


This is absolutely correct. In the reply I received from Commissioner Matonich, he stated they had NOT met YET, and that they will talk about it at the next NRC meeting.

That means if you "meant" to write letters and haven't done so yet, please do so now. :wink:

[TWS-Mike]

Received another reply today, and it was very appreciative of the additional info I sent.

http://db.tt/jUJrZ3ND


Mike

[Oaktree]

To me it seems that hunting would be the prefect application for a suppressor, it gives you no advantage over the game. Just helps save your hearing. Especially while shooting from a blind.

[BlueWing]

There was a article about this in one of the MI newspapers. I do not remember which one.
The commission is looking it over. The only really major concern was that if poachers used cans it would be harder to catch them.
Now tell me this. Just how many poachers are going to pay the fees along with the price of the can to poach deer?? I say about ZERO, NONE, NOT ONE.
I sure hope they approve this. Less recoil and noise for children and women shooters. Less noise to bother the wildlife.

[rjrivero]

I have gone over the agendas for all the meetings thus fa (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-39002_11862_13888---,00.html)r this year and it doesn't look like any discussion regarding the supressor for hunting issue at all.

It may be time to ask for time for public commentary on the issue at one of their meetings?

Maybe a second round of letters?

What do you guys think?

[TWS-Mike]

I was thinking of attending the next NRC meeting to make a public presentation.

I have another round of letters in the works as well.

Will keep you posted, if I get any replies or decide when I can make a meeting.

[evilcoon]

Just giving this thread bump.

Thanks for all those working on trying to make this legal. :grouphug:

[rjrivero]

I was thinking of attending the next NRC meeting to make a public presentation.

I have another round of letters in the works as well.

Will keep you posted, if I get any replies or decide when I can make a meeting.

Just giving this thread bump.

Thanks for all those working on trying to make this legal. :grouphug:
The only way to make this LEGAL is for everyone to write letters to the Natural Resources Comission.

Addresses can be found HERE (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-39002_11862-26986--,00.html).

Sample letters can be found earlier in this thread (http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=150828&page=2).

It may be time to let our voices be heard again, and again if needed. If we need to show up to a meeting or two, so be it. They won't move on it unless there are enough letters, speakers at these meetings to get their attention and keep it for a hot minute.

[steinweiser]

we should all just pick a meeting date and go

I know tws-mike was going to go, i haven't talked with him lately

[rjrivero]

we should all just pick a meeting date and go

I know tws-mike was going to go, i haven't talked with him lately
Keep me posted. If it works out with my schedule, I'll go!

[HoldHard]

Next meeting is a week from today. As rjrivero posted, there is no mention of suppressors used in hunting on the agenda (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/agnNov12_402057_7.pdf). (<-- click)

Date & Location:
November 8, 2012
MSU Diagnostic Center for Population and Animal Health
4125 Beaumont Road, Lansing, MI 48910

HH

[brady080]

So sick of law abiding citizens help back over convicts. Treat everyone like a crook is the theme in america sometimes.

Funny thing is if a poacher has a silencer there gonna use it anyway. Hello there poaching! Pouchers have been using home made cans for years. They will probly be using legal cans anyway, approved or not. How does making legal hunting with a can affect the poachers?

[supra_2nr]

I had a talk with a local DNR officer in the Monroe Area... He told me that while hunting with a supressor is illegal in MI, he personally did not care... lol

Gotta love people who "dont care" about their jobs...

[rjrivero]

Time to start writing letters again, as the new commission is intact until December of this year:

NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION

Louise Klarr
1530 N. Cranbrook Road
Bloomfield, MI 48301
248-417-5782
Appointed: 12/28/12
Term Expires: 12/31/16

John Madigan
831 W. Munising Avenue
Munising, MI 49862
906-630-4967
Appointed: 1/1/03
Reappointed: 4/6/07 and 1/13/11
Term Expires: 12/31/14

John Matonich
9502 Shyre Circle
Davison, MI 48423
810-653-4817
Appointed: 7/1/10
Term Expires: 12/31/13

Tim Nichols
111 Birchwood Lane
Cadillac, MI 49601
313-530-0775
Appointed 5/6/09
Reappointed 12/28/12
Term Expires: 12/31/16

J. R. Richardson, Chair
36658 McGuire Road
Ontonagon, MI 49953
906-399-9579
Appointed: 4/6/07
Reappointed: 1/13/11
Term Expires: 12/31/14

Rex E. Schlaybaugh, Jr.
492 East Main Street
Harbor Springs, MI 49740
313-377-0152
Appointed: 1/5/12
Term Expires: 12/31/15

Annoesjka Steinman
4048 Treeline Drive
Muskegon, MI 49441
231-740-5552 (C)
Appointed: 1/5/12
Term Expires: 12/31/15

[Tutone]

Just adding my $.02 for those writing letters, and thank you for doing so.

I attended an NRA-ILA clinic at Cabelas last year and one of the speakers brought up a short discussion about the Huron National Forest instituting a ban on firearm hunting because of it being multi use and adjoining lands also allowing hunting that the Fed could limit hunting on Nat. Forest, etc. My point being that this was all started by a woman who frequented the Natl. Forest to read and whose reading was disturbed by the gunfire during hunting season and adversely impacting her enjoyment/multi-use of the forest.

I'm having trouble articulating my point but I think you get the idea. Let’s keep writing those letters.

Thanks again,
-T

[RaoulDuke]

Happy to write a letter.

I would like to note.. AG opinions are simply that.. opinions. I have had circuit court and appellate court totally disregard them. They went totally opposite the AG.

[Tottss.com]

I am trying to build support as well, if you look you can find the facebook page i started..."mi hunters for suppressors", the more people we get to organize on this the better, I have been trying to contact a couple of groups that helped with the recent passages in western states.

the DNR i spoke to at the sportsmans expo in GR were less than helpful

[rjrivero]

I am trying to build support as well, if you look you can find the facebook page i started..."mi hunters for suppressors", the more people we get to organize on this the better, I have been trying to contact a couple of groups that helped with the recent passages in western states.

the DNR i spoke to at the sportsmans expo in GR were less than helpful
Nice. I would highly suggest you start a letter campaign from there and ask Silencers are Legal to lend some of their support.

You would have a bigger audience and can make some strides that way.

Good luck.

[Tottss.com]

thanks contacted them

[rjrivero]

Bump. Hunting season is coming. If we write letters, we can get heard.

This is an example of a letter I wrote for this purpose. I would encourage anyone and everyone who has an interest to copy it and use it as you wish. I would encourage you to send it to the only email provided in the contact information for the Commission.

Department of Natural Resources
Executive Division
Attention: Debbie Whipple
P.O. BOX 30028
Lansing, MI 48909
517-373-2352
whippled1@michigan.gov

It would not hurt to print copies and send them to each of the members of the commission.



rjrivero
address
city, ST ZIP

October 10, 2011

Mary C. Brown
1624 Grand Avenue
Kalamazoo, MI 49006
269-344-0536

For the removal of silencer restrictions for hunters in Michigan.

Ms. Brown,

I am writing you this letter to request consideration for legalizing Silencers for use in Michigan for Hunting. As you may be aware, on September 2, 2011, the Attorney General Bill Schutte wrote an opinion letter that provides a proper transfer stamp from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives National Firearms Branch is indeed approval for an individual to own and use silencers in Michigan. (Opinion #7260)

However, as you know, The Wildlife Conservation Order Chapter 2.1 (6) states a person may not possess or use a silencer while hunting in Michigan.

Up to this point it hasn't been an issue for someone wanting to hunt in Michigan, because Michigan didn't allow for private silencer ownership. However, in light of the Attorney General Schutte's opinion #7260, it may be prudent to review this restriction and remove it from The Wildlife Conservation Orders.

Silencers or suppressors do NOT make a gun shot “quiet” per se. A good silencer can reduce a typical hunting rifle gunshot from 160dB to about 130dB. A 30dB reduction is approximately the same as a good pair of ear plugs or ear muffs. The benefit is that many hunters do not like to use ear plugs or ear muffs because they can not hear game approaching. However, it becomes a health liability not to shoot without hearing protection.

Silencers would also reduce sound pollution for our neighbors in and around hunting land in Michigan.

There are 24 states in the Union that allow unrestricted use of silencers while hunting. I urge you to make Michigan the 25th.

Thank you for your consideration.


Sincerely,

rjrivero

[rjrivero]

Current list of Commission Members:

Time to start writing letters again, as the new commission is intact until December of this year:

NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION

Louise Klarr
1530 N. Cranbrook Road
Bloomfield, MI 48301
248-417-5782
Appointed: 12/28/12
Term Expires: 12/31/16

John Madigan
831 W. Munising Avenue
Munising, MI 49862
906-630-4967
Appointed: 1/1/03
Reappointed: 4/6/07 and 1/13/11
Term Expires: 12/31/14

John Matonich
9502 Shyre Circle
Davison, MI 48423
810-653-4817
Appointed: 7/1/10
Term Expires: 12/31/13

Tim Nichols
111 Birchwood Lane
Cadillac, MI 49601
313-530-0775
Appointed 5/6/09
Reappointed 12/28/12
Term Expires: 12/31/16

J. R. Richardson, Chair
36658 McGuire Road
Ontonagon, MI 49953
906-399-9579
Appointed: 4/6/07
Reappointed: 1/13/11
Term Expires: 12/31/14

Rex E. Schlaybaugh, Jr.
492 East Main Street
Harbor Springs, MI 49740
313-377-0152
Appointed: 1/5/12
Term Expires: 12/31/15

Annoesjka Steinman
4048 Treeline Drive
Muskegon, MI 49441
231-740-5552 (C)
Appointed: 1/5/12
Term Expires: 12/31/15

[Coctailer]

Anyone is welcome to post up info on my Facebook page.
There is a link in my sigline.