question on mailing trust to ATF

[smokinbutts]

I got my trust notarized and registered today and when I registered it the lady at the courthouse said i had to leave my original copy there. I don't know a whole lot about this and i just want to find out if the photo copy of my trust paperwork is enough or if i need notarized copies to send in. the press/stamp thing my notary used didnt show up at all in the photo copy. i did get a stamped paper certifying the original trust is at the courthouse. So basically i need to know if a photocopy with no stamp for notary is good, or if the certified letter with the photocopy, or maybe even go back to my notary and see if she'll stamp the photocopy. i just don't want to hold up the process any longer. thanks.

[rjrivero]

I got my trust notarized and registered today and when I registered it the lady at the courthouse said i had to leave my original copy there. I don't know a whole lot about this and i just want to find out if the photo copy of my trust paperwork is enough or if i need notarized copies to send in. the press/stamp thing my notary used didnt show up at all in the photo copy. i did get a stamped paper certifying the original trust is at the courthouse. So basically i need to know if a photocopy with no stamp for notary is good, or if the certified letter with the photocopy, or maybe even go back to my notary and see if she'll stamp the photocopy. i just don't want to hold up the process any longer. thanks.
You should have a Notarized copy in your posession as well. You can send the ATF copies. The copies for the ATF don't have to be individually notarized.

[Zane]

I got my trust notarized and registered today and when I registered it the lady at the courthouse said i had to leave my original copy there. I don't know a whole lot about this and i just want to find out if the photo copy of my trust paperwork is enough or if i need notarized copies to send in. the press/stamp thing my notary used didnt show up at all in the photo copy. i did get a stamped paper certifying the original trust is at the courthouse. So basically i need to know if a photocopy with no stamp for notary is good, or if the certified letter with the photocopy, or maybe even go back to my notary and see if she'll stamp the photocopy. i just don't want to hold up the process any longer. thanks.

Oakland told me that I needed my originals in order to conduct business. All they took was the original Michigan state registration form and gave me a copy with my file number on it.

[smokinbutts]

I was told they had to keep the original due to a recent change in the law. They now keep the originals just like they do with wills. She even called someone about it to make sure that was right because I was questioning it. The courts don't manage trusts, they only hold on to them so if the trustees die the original can be found. It seemed kind of strange but it really isn't a big deal.

[dekulaw]

Please review these sections of the Michigan Trust Code as it relates to trust registration:

MCL 700.7209 Registration of trust.
Sec. 7209.

(1) The trustee of a trust that has its principal place of administration in this state may register the trust in the court at the place designated in the terms of the trust or, if none is designated, then at the principal place of administration. For purposes of this article, the principal place of the trust's administration is the trustee's usual place of business where the records pertaining to the trust are kept or the trustee's residence if the trustee does not have such a place of business. For a corporate trustee, the usual place of business is the business location of the primary trust officer for the trust.

(2) For cotrustees, if not designated in the terms of the trust, the principal place of administration is 1 of the following:

(a) If there is only 1 corporate cotrustee, the corporate trustee's usual place of business.

(b) If there is only 1 professional fiduciary who is an individual and no corporate trustee, the professional fiduciary's usual place of business or residence.

(c) If neither subdivision (a) nor (b) applies, the usual place of business or residence of any of the cotrustees as agreed upon by them.



History: Add. 2009, Act 46, ***. Apr. 1, 2010
Popular Name: EPIC


© 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan


700.7210 Registration procedures.
Sec. 7210.

(1) A trust is registered by the filing of a statement that states the trustee's name and address and in which the trustee acknowledges the trusteeship. The statement shall indicate if the trust has been registered elsewhere. The statement shall identify the trust in 1 of the following manners:

(a) For a trust created by will, by the name of the testator and the date and place of domiciliary probate.

(b) For a written inter-vivos trust, by the name of each settlor and the original trustee and the date of the trust instrument and all amendments existing on the date of registration.

(c) For an oral trust, by information identifying the settlor or other source of property and describing the trust's time and manner of creation and the terms of the trust, including the subject matter, beneficiaries, and time of performance.

(2) The trust instrument is not required to be filed with the court as part of the registration of a trust. If a trust is registered elsewhere, registration in this state is ineffective until the earlier registration is released by order of the court where that registration occurred or by an instrument executed by the trustee and all qualified trust beneficiaries. The order or instrument shall be filed with the registration in this state.

History: Add. 2009, Act 46, ***. Apr. 1, 2010
Popular Name: EPIC

The Michigan Trust Code can be found at the Michigan Legislature site by plugging "Trust Code" into the "MCL Key Word Search" box. Your NFA trust has to comply with the code. There is no requirement to register it by the code of the ATF that I know of. That is one of the beutiful attributes of a trust is that it is private.

John V. Deku
John V. Deku, PLC
6530 Secor Road
Lambertville, Michigan 48144
(734) 854-4535

[John L]

Please review these sections of the Michigan Trust Code as it relates to trust registration:

MCL 700.7209 Registration of trust.
Sec. 7209.

(1) The trustee of a trust that has its principal place of administration in this state may register the trust in the court at the place designated in the terms of the trust or, if none is designated, then at the principal place of administration. For purposes of this article, the principal place of the trust's administration is the trustee's usual place of business where the records pertaining to the trust are kept or the trustee's residence if the trustee does not have such a place of business. For a corporate trustee, the usual place of business is the business location of the primary trust officer for the trust.

(2) For cotrustees, if not designated in the terms of the trust, the principal place of administration is 1 of the following:

(a) If there is only 1 corporate cotrustee, the corporate trustee's usual place of business.

(b) If there is only 1 professional fiduciary who is an individual and no corporate trustee, the professional fiduciary's usual place of business or residence.

(c) If neither subdivision (a) nor (b) applies, the usual place of business or residence of any of the cotrustees as agreed upon by them.



History: Add. 2009, Act 46, ***. Apr. 1, 2010
Popular Name: EPIC


© 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan


700.7210 Registration procedures.
Sec. 7210.

(1) A trust is registered by the filing of a statement that states the trustee's name and address and in which the trustee acknowledges the trusteeship. The statement shall indicate if the trust has been registered elsewhere. The statement shall identify the trust in 1 of the following manners:

(a) For a trust created by will, by the name of the testator and the date and place of domiciliary probate.

(b) For a written inter-vivos trust, by the name of each settlor and the original trustee and the date of the trust instrument and all amendments existing on the date of registration.

(c) For an oral trust, by information identifying the settlor or other source of property and describing the trust's time and manner of creation and the terms of the trust, including the subject matter, beneficiaries, and time of performance.

(2) The trust instrument is not required to be filed with the court as part of the registration of a trust. If a trust is registered elsewhere, registration in this state is ineffective until the earlier registration is released by order of the court where that registration occurred or by an instrument executed by the trustee and all qualified trust beneficiaries. The order or instrument shall be filed with the registration in this state.

History: Add. 2009, Act 46, ***. Apr. 1, 2010
Popular Name: EPIC

The Michigan Trust Code can be found at the Michigan Legislature site by plugging "Trust Code" into the "MCL Key Word Search" box. Your NFA trust has to comply with the code. There is no requirement to register it by the code of the ATF that I know of. That is one of the beutiful attributes of a trust is that it is private.

John V. Deku
John V. Deku, PLC
6530 Secor Road
Lambertville, Michigan 48144
(734) 854-4535
John,
Forgive this question as I do not understand everything you posted.

Are you saying that a trust does not have to be registered with the State/County?

[rjrivero]

John,
Forgive this question as I do not understand everything you posted.

Are you saying that a trust does not have to be registered with the State/County?
I'm no lawyer either, but John's law citation seem to indicate exactly that.......interesting, huh?

[Zane]

John,
Forgive this question as I do not understand everything you posted.

Are you saying that a trust does not have to be registered with the State/County?

IANAL in any way.

A trust does not need to be registered in Michigan. However my dealer specifically asked if it was registered as he has been informed that is a requirement of the examiner(s) and won't be approved unless registered.

[rjrivero]

IANAL in any way.

A trust does not need to be registered in Michigan. However my dealer specifically asked if it was registered as he has been informed that is a requirement of the examiner(s) and won't be approved unless registered.
That doesn't sound right to me. There are some states that don't require registering a trust at all. For instance, in Ohio, you only need it NOTARIZED in order for it to be valid. No registration required. As far as I know there is no mechanism to register it with the state, either.

[dekulaw]

John L/Zane:

A trust does not need to be registered in the State of Michigan in order to be valid. You "MAY" register it if you need to. In Monroe County we refer to the "will vault" at the courthouse which is there to protect the original will from destruction and/or unscrupulous family who may alter your will while you are demented in the nursing home waiting to die. It is put there strictly for protection purposes. It can be amended at a future date and the amended will/trust is still valid and trumps any conflicting language in the one in the vault. You can put the amended one in the vault too. Bottom line is there is no requirement of registration for validity under Michigan law.

I will call West Virginia in the morning to check out the dealer's statement.

John V. Deku

[Shyster]

He's right. Under Michigan law a Revocable Trust does not need to be registered to be valid. The problem is that the BATF examiners, upon VERY RELIABLE INFORMATION, are requiring the Trust be registered.

[HoldHard]

He's right. Under Michigan law a Revocable Trust does not need to be registered to be valid. The problem is that the BATF examiners, upon VERY RELIABLE INFORMATION, are requiring the Trust be registered.
So if the county seat has possession of your trust paperwork, how do you change it? How do you add additional items? How do you add or remove people?

Do you have to ask the registrar for your own paperwork back? How is that accomplished? How is the person asking for original paperwork identified and how are they connected to a specific trust?

This limits your access to their business hours.

HH

[smokinbutts]

they told me at the courthouse i just come in and can make changes to it. but only people listed as trustees can make changes or add/remove things. if i had known it didn't need to be registered, i probably wouldnt have. i thought it had to be registered to be legal.

[smokinbutts]

He's right. Under Michigan law a Revocable Trust does not need to be registered to be valid. The problem is that the BATF examiners, upon VERY RELIABLE INFORMATION, are requiring the Trust be registered.

how does the atf even know if the trust is registered? they told me at the courthouse that not just anybody can come in and request to see the trust or even get any info about it.

[Shyster]

how does the atf even know if the trust is registered? they told me at the courthouse that not just anybody can come in and request to see the trust or even get any info about it.
You submit a copy of the Registration of Trust that has been entered in the court. The form will be marked as having been received for registration and will contain the registration information.

I know of a couple of people who have submitted their Trusts without registering them. I will update everyone as soon as I learn whether their transfers were approved without the Trust being registered.

[dekulaw]

UPDATE:

West Virginia returned my call today and the analyst indicated that the Branch will not require any more than the state statutes require for the creation and existence of a valid trust. With that information I believe that an applicant doesn't have to register their Michigan trust in order to comply with the NFA. This would protect the privacy factor of a trust and save you $36.00 for the registration fees and the time and energy at the county courthouse for registering the trust. The report/update from Shyster will be helpful for all.

Further Analysis:

I suppose it depends on how fast you want your NFA firearm. If you send the trust registration paperwork with your Form 4 and the Branch requires it then you are good. If they don't want it then you now have a registered trust for nothing. If you don't send in the registration paperwork with your Form 4 and they want it you will have an elongated time line for the date of possession of the firearm. That is a client decision until Shyster or someone else gives us a report of actual filing results.

To answer Smokinbutts questions I would reply as follows. I reviewed the statute and court rules and then spoke with the Monroe County Probate Clerk. She had already received a registration prepared by Shyster and had already spoken to the Chief Judge about the proper procedure. She indicated to me that the procedure for registering a trust is as follows:

- you prepare a SCAO Form No. PC 610 and pay her $ 25.00;
- you do not have to give her the trust, you don't even have to show it to her or have it with you;
- you pay the clerk $11.00 and you will receive a signed and stamped SCAO Form MC 202 that is the certification that you in deed registered the trust;
- you give the Branch a copy of the PC 610 form and the original MC 202 form keeping copies of both for your records.

The forms can be found here:

courts.michigan.gov/scao/courtforms/estatestrusts/pc610.pdf

courts.michigan.gov/scao/courtforms/general/mc202.pdf

(it won't let me put the in front until I have done 10 posts which I have not yet done.)

That conforms with my reading of the statute and rules as well. That's it for that part of the process. If you amend your trust or the trustees/co-trustees before you buy another firearm then you may have to register the trust again in order to get a proper certification form, showing new or deleted trustees, to send in with the next Form 4 as you have to send the Branch the trust paperwork, with any amendments or additional/deleted trustees, each time you do a new transfer.

I hope that is not more info than requested or required. Hopefully Shyster will get an update soon to minimize any anxiety and streamline this process. If I get anything new I will report it here.

John V. Deku

[rjrivero]

courts.michigan.gov/scao/courtforms/estatestrusts/pc610.pdf
courts.michigan.gov/scao/courtforms/general/mc202.pdf

Thanks for doing this legwork for us. It is in-line with my understanding and experience with NFA (Not in Michigan).

I took the liberty of making your reference PDF's into Hyperlinks.

Though I have never had a Transfer Stamp delayed, I do know folks who have due to some circumstance or another. The ATF typically sends a letter asking for whatever the application is lacking and you have 30 days to respond. If they don't get a response, then the application is denied and funds returned. If you do respond, it takes about 2 weeks for them to finish the transfer.

[kevins_garage]

I know of a couple of people who have submitted their Trusts without registering them. I will update everyone as soon as I learn whether their transfers were approved without the Trust being registered.


If you don't send in the registration paperwork with your Form 4 and they want it you will have an elongated time line for the date of possession of the firearm. That is a client decision until Shyster or someone else gives us a report of actual filing results.
Maybe one or both of you should just ask some of the folks in MI with MG's that went the trust route to see if they registered their trust or not. ;-) ;-)

[Shyster]

Maybe one or both of you should just ask some of the folks in MI with MG's that went the trust route to see if they registered their trust or not. ;-) ;-)
The VERY FEW people I know that have MGs had their trusts registered. I don't know of anyone who hasn't. Further, Chewy and JGrant talked to their ATF liaison who indicated ATF was requiring registration.

Again, MI law does not require trusts be registered. I believe however that the BATF is requiring it. We shall have to see.

[kevins_garage]

The VERY FEW people I know that have MGs had their trusts registered. I don't know of anyone who hasn't. Further, Chewy and JGrant talked to their ATF liaison who indicated ATF was requiring registration.

Again, MI law does not require trusts be registered. I believe however that the BATF is requiring it. We shall have to see.
I believe there are at least 2 people that didn't, but it wouldn't be the first time BATF has allowed something at one time and then changed their mind at a later date...

[rjrivero]

The VERY FEW people I know that have MGs had their trusts registered. I don't know of anyone who hasn't. Further, Chewy and JGrant talked to their ATF liaison who indicated ATF was requiring registration.

Again, MI law does not require trusts be registered. I believe however that the BATF is requiring it. We shall have to see.Is this liaison an inspector or a field agent? I don't find it surprising that there is a disconnect between the field office and the NFA branch.

I believe there are at least 2 people that didn't, but it wouldn't be the first time BATF has allowed something at one time and then changed their mind at a later date...Ain't that the truth!!