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camaro1776
12-08-2011, 06:43 PM
I have 4 questions to owning full autos in Michigan
1. You buy a legal full auto sear it can be used in multiple firearms?
2. Can you buy a full auto short barrel rifle in Michigan?
3. If you become a class 3 dealer you can not "collect" but what happens if you can't sell? For whatever reason price to high slow market etc.
4. If you become a class 3 manufacture can you only make firearms under government contracts or can you make full auto for "prototype" or full auto Sears for company use?

I know its a lot of info. I can read so if you have reputable link/s but would really like the layman answers.

pgaplayerless
12-08-2011, 06:48 PM
I have 4 questions to owning full autos in Michigan
1. You buy a legal full auto sear it can be used in multiple firearms? YES
2. Can you buy a full auto short barrel rifle in Michigan? yes, bbl length does not matter with MGs


..

camaro1776
12-08-2011, 07:10 PM
Speedy response thanks. Follow up to the full auto sear in multiple firearms. The auto sear is the registered "machine gun" not the receiver/firearm its in right. So for example I buy a auto sear and put it in a off the shelf ar15 in order to function as a machine gun. Legal?
Also then let's say I make that same ar15 a sbr I can register as a mg but is the auto sear now permanently attached to the said ar15?
As you can tell I want in to this mg circle but don't want to be called goose by batfe and locked up.

pgaplayerless
12-08-2011, 07:11 PM
Speedy response thanks. Follow up to the full auto sear in multiple firearms. The auto sear is the registered "machine gun" not the receiver/firearm its in right. So for example I buy a auto sear and put it in a off the shelf ar15 in order to function as a machine gun. Legal?


yes. the sear carries the NFA s/n

rickettsj
12-08-2011, 09:38 PM
1. yes
2. its a MG you can do what ever you want to it
3. you just hang onto stuff as "stock" or "inventory", as a dealer i would hope you have stuff on hand right?
4. yes you can make full auto stuff without contracts, your a manufacture, its your job to make stuff to show to the government/LE and have on the shelf as "demo's"

trapdoorman
12-09-2011, 03:46 AM
1. Yes, the full auto sear is serial numbered and considered the machine gun. It must be legal NFA registered.

2. Yes, a short barreled machine gun is legal provided the registered sear
is installed in that gun. As soon as the sear is removed it is no longer
a machine gun and would no longer be legal if the short barrel is left on.

3. If a class III dealer is forced to go out of business I believe they are allowed to keep certain guns that were in inventory.

Keep in mind that what makes an FFL a "class III" dealer is the $500 per year SOT that allows them to transfer machine guns from other dealers without paying the $200 transfer tax. It is not legal to obtain the SOT for the sole purchase of acquiring machine guns without paying the $200 transfer tax and then going out of business.


4. A class II licensee may manufacture NFA items but I believe a Form 1 is
required for the items manufactured. NFA will want to know what you
have made.

GarrettJ
12-09-2011, 10:06 AM
4. A class II licensee may manufacture NFA items but I believe a Form 1 is
required for the items manufactured.
An 07/02 FFL/SOT registers firearms using a Form 2 after the gun is built. Everyone else files a Form 1, and has to wait for approval prior to making the NFA firearm.

jmacken37
12-11-2011, 02:26 PM
1. Sears can be used in multiple guns, but generally only in one family of guns (e.g., DIAS in AR-type guns, and HK sear in the HK family).
2. Short barrel rifles and full-auto weapons are two different animals. SBR/S are illegal in Michigan. Because full-auto firearms are not rifles or shotguns, they are not subject to rules applying to rifles/shotguns.
3. Class 3 dealers are not allowed to collect and must conduct business. Only C&R FFL holders can collect NFA and other firearms.
4. Manufacturers are allowed to conduct business as a dealer and may also produce prototype and production firearms.
5. In the case of a registered sear, it is indeed the "machine gun." Be aware that when the sear is not with the gun, the gun must stand on it's own. By this I mean that a 10.5" barrelled AR is fine when coupled with a sear, but if you remove the sear, you are left with an unregistered SBR if the AR is left in the same configuration. There are various ways to comply with the rules legally (remove the AR upper prior to removing the RDIAS or using pistol HK hosts), just be careful and make sure you know what you are doing.

Form 1 is for non-SOT manufacturers (including private citizens) or government/LE entities.

Pre-sample and fully transferrable guns are permitted to remain in the FFL/SOT's possession after they give up their license. All post-sample guns would have to be transferred to parties that can legally possess them.

Jake (FFL/SOT)

rjrivero
12-11-2011, 02:59 PM
1. Sears can be used in multiple guns, but generally only in one family of guns (e.g., DIAS in AR-type guns, and HK sear in the HK family).
2. Short barrel rifles and full-auto weapons are two different animals. SBR/S are illegal in Michigan. Because full-auto firearms are not rifles or shotguns, they are not subject to rules applying to rifles/shotguns.
3. Class 3 dealers are not allowed to collect and must conduct business. Only C&R FFL holders can collect NFA and other firearms.
4. Manufacturers are allowed to conduct business as a dealer and may also produce prototype and production firearms.
5. In the case of a registered sear, it is indeed the "machine gun." Be aware that when the sear is not with the gun, the gun must stand on it's own. By this I mean that a 10.5" barrelled AR is fine when coupled with a sear, but if you remove the sear, you are left with an unregistered SBR if the AR is left in the same configuration. There are various ways to comply with the rules legally (remove the AR upper prior to removing the RDIAS or using pistol HK hosts), just be careful and make sure you know what you are doing.

Form 1 is for non-SOT manufacturers (including private citizens) or government/LE entities.

Pre-sample and fully transferrable guns are permitted to remain in the FFL/SOT's possession after they give up their license. All post-sample guns would have to be transferred to parties that can legally possess them.

Jake (FFL/SOT)
Jake:

The interesting part of this question, in my view, is the auto sear in a SBR. I know the sear is considered the Machine gun. Is there a process whereby one is allowed to make a "SBR HOST" for an AUTO SEAR in Michigan? Does the host need to stand alone as a RIFLE in order to use an AUTO SEAR?

I know Michigan doesn't allow SBR's, but they do allow Machine guns, reguardless of barrel length.

I can't think of a way to use a drop in auto sear in a SBR in Michigan legally. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

jmacken37
12-11-2011, 03:17 PM
Sears can be "married" to guns. For this to make sense, you have to realize that the entire entity (gun parts + sear) equals the machine gun when assembled. When the sear is removed you have a SBR or SBS or parts. This is pretty easy with an AR where the lower and upper are easily taken apart and the lower is the registered portion of the firearm. HK's are tougher b/c the barrel is perm attached to the registered part (the upper). Thus, for an HK sear in MI, you'd have to marry the sear to a single gun, use a 16" + host, or use pistol hosts and attach stocks when you are running the gun with the sear.

Jake

camaro1776
12-11-2011, 04:58 PM
This is a lot of good information. I don't see much point in not allowing sbr and sbs but I am sure I am just stating the obvious to everyone here. However if the sbr upper is not attached to the semi lower is it still a sbr? Cause if I where to say buy an m16 lower kit that includes the autosear and own a capable ar15 I now have the makings of a machine gun and could be called out as such right? Which brings up the topic of why aren't the parts kit "registered" or if I have a manufacture license and simply buy the capable ar and the right m16 parts can that now be a legal machine gun? I am probably over thinking a lot of this but I am coming to the point in my life where these firearms will be within reach and don't want to start the journey on the wrong foot. Also does a nfa trust, which I am planning on doing to deal with the local cleo and protect my firearms if anything happens to me and allow my wife use the firearms without me, change the rules(other then not needing a sign off, background check and finger prints,)?
Thanks yall.

rjrivero
12-11-2011, 05:20 PM
An AR upper with a short barrel can be put on a pistol lower. So it doesn't necessarily need to make a NFA item just by buying one. Having a short barrel on an upper by itself isn't a problem.

Constructive intent is a difficult thing. As you have pointed out, if you have an AR15 and the M16 auto parts, you have constructive posession of an Illegal Machine gun. So if you have a short barrel upper, and a lower that has a stock on it, then you could be in constructive posession of an illegal sbr. If however, you have a short barrel upper and a pistol lower, then you have no worries if you have another rifle with a 16" or longer barrel because the upper can be placed on your pistol and make a legal pistol.

The general rule is that you should have at least every one lower that can be built into a legal firearm, and then have any "spare uppers" you want, of any length.

Civilians are NOT allowed to build machine guns since 1986. Any and all machine guns had to be in the NFA registry by that date. Therefore, you can NOT legally MAKE a machine gun anymore, which is why the cost for a full auto M16 is now in the $12-$25K range.

GarrettJ
12-11-2011, 06:01 PM
The interesting part of this question, in my view, is the auto sear in a SBR. I know the sear is considered the Machine gun. Is there a process whereby one is allowed to make a "SBR HOST" for an AUTO SEAR in Michigan? Does the host need to stand alone as a RIFLE in order to use an AUTO SEAR?
This is actually pretty common. As noted by others, as long as the registered part is in the gun, the whole gun is now considered to be part of the MG.

As long as you remove the offending part prior to removal of the registered part, you're still good. This is pretty easy with something like an AR15, which is pretty modular. But it's not so easy to remove the barrel on an H&K MP5 clone, for example. In this instance, when an owner does not want to (or cannot) register the host as an SBR, but does not want the long barrel, they start out with the pistol version of the firearm.

If you have an SP89, and add a registered sear, the whole gun now becomes part of the MG. Once the grip housing with the sear is installed, you can remove the butt plate and install a buttstock. If you want to remove the auto sear, you first remove the buttstock, and return the firearm to "pistol" configuration prior to removing the sear.

camaro1776
12-11-2011, 06:16 PM
But as a manufacturer would I still be consider a civilian in the sense that placing m16 parts in the ar making/manufacturing a machine gun? If so how is that new machine guns are being manufactured even if not sold to civilians. This just seems strange to me.
Although the "new" machine guns I am thinking of may be foreign built or simply modifying old equipment.

rjrivero
12-11-2011, 06:33 PM
But as a manufacturer would I still be consider a civilian in the sense that placing m16 parts in the ar making/manufacturing a machine gun? If so how is that new machine guns are being manufactured even if not sold to civilians. This just seems strange to me.
Although the "new" machine guns I am thinking of may be foreign built or simply modifying old equipment.
If you have a license to manufacture, you can make as many machine guns as you want. And YES, you just drop in the m16 parts and you have a full auto.

camaro1776
12-11-2011, 10:12 PM
Interesting although I suppose I must sell the "new" machine guns to government or police. Probably wouldn't be able to keep them if not sold either. I think I got the basics.
Thank you.

rjrivero
12-11-2011, 10:41 PM
Interesting although I suppose I must sell the "new" machine guns to government or police. Probably wouldn't be able to keep them if not sold either. I think I got the basics.
Thank you.
As long as you hold a manufacturer's license, you can keep some of the machine guns you make. That way you have them to demo for your potential buyers. Same as a class 3 dealer.