HB 5225 procedures for purchase and possession

[Tallbear]

HB 5225 of 2011 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2011-HB-5225)
Weapons; firearms; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise. Amends secs. 2, 5a & 5d of 1927 PA 372 (MCL 28.422 et seq.) & adds sec. 12c.
Last Action: 12/13/2011 referred to Committee on Judiciary

[45/70fan]

I have a problem with this: page 3/17


(c) The person is a citizen of the United States and is a

19 legal resident of this state. For the purposes of this section, a

20 person shall be considered a legal resident of this state if any of

21 the following apply:



As it now stands a legal resident alien who is not a citizen can purchase, own and carry a pistol, this legislation appears to make it illegal as they are residents but not citizen's per se.

[who dat]

I like the fact that this is all laid out and clarified, but I'm also sad that it had to be.

[dougwg]

shall not do any of the following:
(a) Create a visible representation

So no more making a copy of CPLs and Drivers licenses

[Pyzik]

shall not do any of the following:
(a) Create a visible representation

So no more making a copy of CPLs and Drivers licenses
More steps in the right direction.
Guess I'll add another letter to the stack to send out today.

[Pistol Teacher]

I am for removing Pistol registration nothing less. Michigan has it wrong.

[The General]

can someone give me a summary of what this bill is about? I don't feel like reading the whole thing.....

[Pyzik]

Dealers cannot make visual records of transactions (other than normal video surveillance.

Purchase Permit good for 30 days instead of 10.

Multiple Purchase Permits at one time only require one questionnaire to be filled out.

Purchase Permits will be free of charge.

Think that pretty much covers it.

[45/70fan]

can someone give me a summary of what this bill is about? I don't feel like reading the whole thing.....

To quote Nancy Pelosi, you'll just have to wait until it's passed to read it then.

[dougwg]

To quote Nancy Pelosi, you'll just have to wait until it's passed to read it then.
lolol

[Yance]

Not so bad, too bad we still have to register our firearms though...:barf:

[westcliffe01]

It is amazing that the law is revised yet a known unconstitutional issue does not get fixed. The fact is that the supreme court has ruled that legal permanent residents cannot be denied ownership of firearms due to not being citizens. The case was Chan vs City of Troy Its published as a footnote to 28.422 "License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours."

(Constitutionality: The Michigan Court of Appeals held in Chan v City of Troy , 220 Mich App 376; 559 NW2d 374 (1997), that the
citizen requirement, now MCL 28.422(3)(c), for a permit to purchase a pistol contained in MCL 28.422(3)(b) violates the Equal
Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and is unconstitutional.)



I have a problem with this: page 3/17


As it now stands a legal resident alien who is not a citizen can purchase, own and carry a pistol, this legislation appears to make it illegal as they are residents but not citizen's per se.

[luckless]

It is time to demand the end of handgun registration in Michigan! The Republicans claim to be the party that defends the second amendment and they control both houses and the governor's office. I think this election year would be an excellent time to find out which elected officials truly believe in the right to keep and bear arms.

[durwood]

..

[DanM]

can someone give me a summary of what this bill is about? I don't feel like reading the whole thing.....

Oh? Don't feel like reading for yourself? No problem! Here it is for you:

In the interest of public safety, the state is allowing you to turn in your current firearms and receive, a little later, your choice of enhanced optics installed on them or the current model year replacement of the same model or an equivalent or better model of firearm, if the first option isn't available.

Technically, in order to do this, the state requires you to do a simple forfeit of your firearms to them. So take all your firearms to your local PD and tell them you are forfeiting them. They'll know what to do from there.

Hurry, while supplies last!!!

[PDinDetroit]

I am for removing Pistol registration nothing less. Michigan has it wrong.

+1

[luckless]

It is time to demand the end of pistol registration in Michigan. We need to push this in 2012, before the next election. Let's find out how our new crop of politicians feel about constitutional rights before we have to decide their fate in November!

[Quaamik]

:yeahthat: :yeahthat:

[zigziggityzoo]

I don't rely on the supreme court to define Constitutional Rights. They are hacks just like congress. Why is a felony a lifetime punishment? They are deprived of AT LEAST the 2nd amendment. Whats the supreme court have to say about this? I think CITIZENS should have rights, non citizens, not so much. Otherwise whats the point of being a citizen?

As a citizen you get to vote.

As a human you are guaranteed the bill of rights.

When you say a right is "Inalienable" that means that it's a right inherent to being HUMAN, not being a CITIZEN. Our founding fathers wanted it that way. That's why they used the word.

[drtoddw]

The Michigan Court of Appeals held in Chan v City of Troy, 220 Mich App 376; 559 NW2d 374 (1997), that the citizen requirement, now MCL 28.422(3)(c), for a permit to purchase a pistol contained in MCL 28.422(3)(b) violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and is unconstitutional.

[leavitron]

Hi guys. Forgive my ignorance but what is the actual point of Michigan's pistol registration? I guess I need to understand that first before I can decide who I feel about removal of said registration.

Is it merely to ensure that they end up in Federal records? Or is the state actually keeping their own records?

If merely for Federal record then it seems redundant and stupid. Law abiding citizens are the only ones who are going to obey this. With that in mind, they've already obeyed the law and the weapon was registered at time of legal purchase. Criminals don't give a rip so they don't apply anyway.

If in order to keep a state registration database - well, that seems unconstitutional to me and a waste of resources.

[oldskoolford427]

To quote Nancy Pelosi, you'll just have to wait until it's passed to read it then.

That's UGLY on both counts!!! LOL

[Tallbear]

Hi guys. Forgive my ignorance but what is the actual point of Michigan's pistol registration? I guess I need to understand that first before I can decide who I feel about removal of said registration.

Is it merely to ensure that they end up in Federal records? Or is the state actually keeping their own records?

If merely for Federal record then it seems redundant and stupid. Law abiding citizens are the only ones who are going to obey this. With that in mind, they've already obeyed the law and the weapon was registered at time of legal purchase. Criminals don't give a rip so they don't apply anyway.

If in order to keep a state registration database - well, that seems unconstitutional to me and a waste of resources.

Firearms registration in Michigan (one of only 6 states that require registration) is do to the political influence the Klu Klux Klan had in our city,county and state government in the mid 1920's. It was a law to keep guns out of the hands of the black people in our state.

Since that time, it has been used as a "safety measure" to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals (the same purpose for the federal laws).

You can find a history of Michigan's firearm registration by Googling "Dr. Ossian Sweet, Detroit, MI."

[45/70fan]

That's UGLY on both counts!!! LOL

Your taking my quote out of context: it was made in a reply to an individual because they didn't want to read it but rather have it summarized for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The General
can someone give me a summary of what this bill is about? I don't feel like reading the whole thing.....

[leavitron]

Thank you Tallbear. I will.

[RevDerb]

It is time to demand the end of handgun registration in Michigan! The Republicans claim to be the party that defends the second amendment and they control both houses and the governor's office. I think this election year would be an excellent time to find out which elected officials truly believe in the right to keep and bear arms.
I agree :thumbup:

[James Weaver]

Today the NRA News website is reporting that this bill would eliminate the permit to purchase requirement and eliminate handgun registration, as well. Neither of those things were included in the version that I read. This sounds like an entirely new version.

[SeeTee]

From the NRA email,

Michigan House Judiciary Committee to Consider Repeal of Handgun Permit-to-Purchase and Registration

"The Michigan House Judiciary Committee is reviewing an important and long-overdue bill that would eliminate the state handgun “permit-to-purchase” and registration requirements. Although a date has not been announced, House Bill 5225 (http://www.nramedia.org/t/502094/48528009/12576/0/) will be heard in the House Judiciary Committee sometime after the spring recess."

Unless I have not had enough coffee, I did not see anything of the sort in reading the bill that would do that.

[Bronson]

Here is the reply I received from an NRA rep. when I emailed them about the discrepency.


Thank you for contacting NRA-ILA.

As the bill stands now you are correct. However, we have been working to add new language to the bill (which we will release closer to the hearing date) that, if adopted, will abolish both the permit to purchase and registration. We tried to link the “new language” into the alert, but it apparently did not work. We thank you for bringing this to our attention and we will correct that problem as soon as possible.

Again, thank you for your inquiry and please do not hesitate to share any of your thoughts or concerns in the future.


Sincerely,

Kyle C

NRA-ILA Grassroots Division


Bronson

[SeeTee]

Thanks Bronson for finding out what was going on.

[Roundballer]

Someone has to have the new language for HB5225, the NRA web page link is a link to the author's "My Documents", just a screw up.

This bill is now tie-bared with HB 5498 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/billintroduced/House/htm/2012-HIB-5498.htm) and HB 5499 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/billintroduced/House/htm/2012-HIB-5499.htm). These two bills seem to be eliminating all references and penalties to 28.422 (purchase permits). One could conclude that the entire registration scheme is being eliminated, but we don't have anything to read yet.

I really don't like when they do "substitute" bills, and everyone jumps in saying "support this", and we don't even know what it says.

I have tried to do a search for the new language, but my google-** is failing me today.

[zigziggityzoo]

The only HB5225 published is this one:

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2011-HB-5225

[TheQ]

The only copies of a bill that are ever published on the leguslature website are the copies that are introduced and the copies that are passed out of committee.

[Roundballer]

The NRA has fixed its' link to the substitute language:

http://www.nraila.org/media/6033552/hb5225_substitute_language.pdf

It looks to me like they are going to try to repeal 28.422, 28.423, and strip a lot language from other places.

As well as give 6 months to all of the departments that have been keeping records to destroy those records. And require reporting of the completion of the task within 30 days from the end of the 6 month period.

It may have an effect on the "pistol free school zones", but more than just a quick read will be needed

[spartywrx]

I plan on attending the May 17 committee meeting.

Any word on time or location? I checked the judiciary website and its not scheduled yet.

[TheQ]

It may have an effect on the "pistol free school zones", but more than just a quick read will be needed

I'm discussing that here (http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?p=1614084#post1614084). I hope others will contribute to that conversation.

[luckless]

I plan on attending the May 17 committee meeting.

Any word on time or location? I checked the judiciary website and its not scheduled yet.


I spoke with representative Walsh's office. The agenda won't be posted until one week prior to the meeting. Until then it is tentatively scheduled for the 17th.

If the House's judiciary committee is anything like the Senate's, we're sunk. I would be interested to know what you find out.

[BOSS302]

I'm confused regarding the gun school free zones and the effect of Michigan's pistol registration. I've heard we are exempt from the act when we have a registered handgun in our possession. It sounds like we may lose this. What is the situation in other States without registration? Are thousands of gun owners committing Federal crimes every day?

[TheQ]

I'm confused regarding the gun school free zones and the effect of Michigan's pistol registration. I've heard we are exempt from the act when we have a registered handgun in our possession. It sounds like we may lose this. What is the situation in other States without registration? Are thousands of gun owners committing Federal crimes every day?

Check out this discussion for more on that:

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?p=1614084#post1614084

[SeeTee]

If a LTP works as a “license” for the school zone, could that be a separate issue from gun registration? or are the two required to be linked?

[Bronson]

If a LTP works as a “license” for the school zone, could that be a separate issue from gun registration? or are the two required to be linked?

Nope, they are separate things. A license to possess could be issued without having registration. The fed. law only requires that the authorities check to make sure you are legal to possess the firearm.


(ii)if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

So they could do a BG check and assuming you come back clean, they give you your license to possess and you are good to go as far as the GFSZA is concerned.

Bronson

[SeeTee]

Thank you for the answer, why could the NICS check not service as a license, a say a card issued at the place of purchase verifying you passed no PD needed and no registration issue.

eta, I think I found the answer to that in another thread "18 USC 922 requires the State to run a background check for exemption"

[TheQ]

Nothing new

[GarrettJ]

Just curious, but how do most other states handle the license /is GFSZA issue? The majority of the states have no handgun registration scheme. There are no government checks other than NICS, and that is only when you buy from an FFL. In some states, the state does the background in lieu of the federal NICS check. But there is no "license" issued along with it. It is simply a "Go - No Go" check, much like the NICS

[TheQ]

Just curious, but how do most other states handle the license /is GFSZA issue? The majority of the states have no handgun registration scheme. There are no government checks other than NICS, and that is only when you buy from an FFL. In some states, the state does the background in lieu of the federal NICS check. But there is no "license" issued along with it. It is simply a "Go - No Go" check, much like the NICS

Good question.

[SADAacp]

Just curious, but how do most other states handle the license /is GFSZA issue? The majority of the states have no handgun registration scheme. There are no government checks other than NICS, and that is only when you buy from an FFL. In some states, the state does the background in lieu of the federal NICS check. But there is no "license" issued along with it. It is simply a "Go - No Go" check, much like the NICS

Wisconsin (state law), for example, exempts a licensee (CCW) and out of state licensees (CCW) from the GFSZ's. I suspect many other states with concealed carry provisions and no handgun registration requirements share similar laws...but I'm probably wrong.

[Bronson]

Wisconsin (state law), for example, exempts a licensee (CCW) and out of state licensees (CCW) from the GFSZ's.

They can't. The Fed. law requires the state or LUoG that the school zone is located in must be the one that certifies the carrier is legal to possess the firearm. It also says the verification of legality must occur before the license is issued so as far as the GFSZA is concerned a state could not recognize another state's license after it has already been issued .


(ii)if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

Bronson

[zigziggityzoo]

They can't. The Fed. law requires the state or LUoG that the school zone is located in must be the one that certifies the carrier is legal to possess the firearm. It also says the verification of legality must occur before the license is issued so as far as the GFSZA is concerned a state could not recognize another state's license after it has already been issued .



Bronson

If the state law gives license to all CPL holders from all states, is that not sufficient?

Is there a law that requires the license to be a physical piece of paper? or can the license be a law that grants license to a specific subset of people?

[TheQ]

If the state law gives license to all CPL holders from all states, is that not sufficient?

Is there a law that requires the license to be a physical piece of paper? or can the license be a law that grants license to a specific subset of people?

A CPL is a permit -- for sure.

"our" concern is Open Carriers without CPLs.

[zigziggityzoo]

A CPL is a permit -- for sure.

"our" concern is Open Carriers without CPLs.

Again, if the law itself gives license, is an actual piece of paper required, or is the law itself license enough?

[Bronson]

If the state law gives license to all CPL holders from all states, is that not sufficient?

But even if a state writes it into law that any and all CPLs from any state are hereby recognized as being blah blah blah, the state the school zone is in would still have to verify that each and every individual with an out of state CPL was qualified to receive the CPL before the CPL was issued.


(ii)if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

Because of that stupid "and" both of those things have to happen. A state can't just say "we consider everybody that is licensed by another state to be licensed by this state." They also have to verify that everybody they consider licensed is able to be licensed and they have to do it before the licensing happens.

A lot of this could go away if the wording of the GFSZA was changed to
...the law enforcement authorities of a State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license

At least that's how I read it.

Bronson

[TheQ]

Again, if the law itself gives license, is an actual piece of paper required, or is the law itself license enough?

We are looking into that possibility -- it'd be something at least. But as Bronson said in the post before this one, it's sufficiency would be questionable.

FWIW, Wisconsin tried to do this with their recent CPL law:

"For purposes of 18 USC 922 all recognized out of state licenses will be treated as licenses issued by this state."

...how effective that is, well, that's never been tested.

For that matter, I'm not sure if there has ever been a "Stand Alone" prosecution for 18 USC 922 where that was the only crime charged.

[PDinDetroit]

Here is what I would like to see occur:


Repeal Mandatory Licensing
People are automatically licensed whom are lawfully able to own, carry, transport, or possess a pistol, removing the GFSZ Issue for MI Residents
Provide for an Optional License to be provided by the Municipality or County where the Person lives, removing the GFSZ Issue for MI Residents and providing for License for Out of State Carry
A non-resident of this state is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Michigan if they are licensed or exempt from licensing by their state of Residence, removing the GFSZ Issue for Out of State Persons
A person under 18 can be in possession of a pistol at a range, for target practice, or for instruction if with a person over 18 with parent/guardian permission
Removes legal language not repealed by other bills, such as for Safety Inspections


Here is what I put forth to achieve this:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2Y1doi0G-5HVlhxN1VGN05YY3c

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2Y1doi0G-5HSUd2bHg1NGNNcDg

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2Y1doi0G-5HZ0xLcUZnTkxyQUk

Not perfect? Suggest away!

[Cackler]

Again, if the law itself gives license, is an actual piece of paper required, or is the law itself license enough?


Illinois requires an FOID card. Also, take a look at this.

http://www.state.il.us/court/opinion...ber/106367.pdf

[SADAacp]

But even if a state writes it into law that any and all CPLs from any state are hereby recognized as being blah blah blah, the state the school zone is in would still have to verify that each and every individual with an out of state CPL was qualified to receive the CPL before the CPL was issued.

Because of that stupid "and" both of those things have to happen. A state can't just say "we consider everybody that is licensed by another state to be licensed by this state." They also have to verify that everybody they consider licensed is able to be licensed and they have to do it before the licensing happens.

A lot of this could go away if the wording of the GFSZA was changed to

At least that's how I read it.

Bronson


(ii)if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

Even if Michigan did not have 28.422, wouldn't an individual who has been issued a CPL meet the above (ii) conditions, by being both "licensed" and "...qualified under the law to receive the license?"

ETA: Yup, I'm aware this is contradictive to the ATF letter floating around the webz.

[Bronson]

Even if Michigan did not have 28.422, wouldn't an individual who has been issued a CPL meet the above (ii) conditions, by being both "licensed" and "...qualified under the law to receive the license?"

ETA: Yup, I'm aware this is contradictive to the ATF letter floating around the webz.

A resident CPL meets the requirements. But that throws anybody that can't afford one under the bus thereby turning a right into a privelege and going against the MI Constitution which states very clearly that ALL of us have a right keep and bear for our defense.

If they dump the LTPP/registration they should replace it with the CPL...at the same cost as the LTPP.

Bronson

[karcent]

I have been informed that behind the scenes, there is a move to require a "Firearms Owner Identification Card" like the one required in Illinois. That is the price we will be asked to pay for the repeal of handgun registration.
I will not support this at all.

[Cackler]

I have been informed that behind the scenes, there is a move to require a "Firearms Owner Identification Card" like the one required in Illinois. That is the price we will be asked to pay for the repeal of handgun registration.
I will not support this at all.

You have that right. The last thing we want to do is start following in the footsteps of Illinois.

[Yance]

I have been informed that behind the scenes, there is a move to require a "Firearms Owner Identification Card" like the one required in Illinois. That is the price we will be asked to pay for the repeal of handgun registration.
I will not support this at all.


I agree, I wouldnt be able to support that either. Get rid of one registration just to have another form of it, doesnt sit well with me.

[Cackler]

I agree, I wouldnt be able to support that either. Get rid of one registration just to have another form of it, doesnt sit well with me.

Actually, that would be going from firearm registration to firearm owner registration.

There is absolutely no need to have a FOID card when one already has a CPL. Secondly, the FOID card requirement has some carry over restrictions/requirements and our Legislators have already proven that they can screw things up big time when trying to create new laws.

All gun registration takes is a stamp and I guess I would prefer that to an FOID law.

[TheQ]

An FOID type card would take care of Federal Gun Free school zones concerns. Obviously, the FOID would ideally be optional and if you had a CPL that would also suffice for the FGFSZ.

[Leader]

An FOID type card would take care of Federal Gun Free school zones concerns. Obviously, the FOID would ideally be optional and if you had a CPL that would also suffice for the FGFSZ.


Nope can't support a FOID type owner registration.

Besides, you haven't found any examples of FGFZ's being used as stand alone charges anyway.

The VAST majority of states get along just fine without all this BS and the citizens of MI are just as trustworthy as those in any other state.
Time for our legislature to put some TRUST in us.

Or maybe we should start looking for some congress critters that do trust the citizens that put them in office.

[SADAacp]

Folks need to be careful what they wish for. No matter how you slice it, a FOID is still registration. At least the way it is now, Michigan only requires registration of handguns. The repeal of 28.422/28.422a as a trade-off for a FOID could land residents of Michigan the requirement to obtain a FOID for all firearm purchases as it is in Illinois, to possibly include that ammo purchases will require the FOID as well.

[Cackler]

Folks need to be careful what they wish for. No matter how you slice it, a FOID is still registration. At least the way it is now, Michigan only requires registration of handguns. The repeal of 28.422/28.422a as a trade-off for a FOID could land residents of Michigan the requirement to obtain a FOID for all firearm purchases as it is in Illinois, to possibly include that ammo purchases will require the FOID as well.


+1

[luckless]

I plan on attending the May 17 committee meeting.

Any word on time or location? I checked the judiciary website and its not scheduled yet.


Spoke with Representative Walsh's office this afternoon. The legislation is on the agenda and the website says 10:30 am, rm 521 in the House Office Building.

His office was very helpful about process but I found them to be less than candid when I asked about the opposition to this bill. It makes me suspicious when a representative insists that we wait until after-the-fact to find out about their activities.

Let us know what happened.

[Yance]

So we would go from pistol registration with a P2P, to registering yourself as owners of firearms. That sounds a little more intrusive than just the pistol registration.

Also look at what IL is doing with their residents. FOID registered citizens are (or will be) charged a fee every few years for each gun they have registered or they will have to forfeit the guns. Or if they dont forfeit they face penalties.

:freak: No thank you. If its between a P2P and a FOID, I'll gladly stay with the P2P.

Our reps need to know that the people only support this if it gets rid of ANY registration process. Not lose one to replace it with a new one.

[Tallbear]

Standing Committee Meeting

Judiciary, Rep. John Walsh, Chair

Date: 05/17/2012

Time: 10:30 AM

Place: 521 House Office Building, Lansing, MI

Agenda:
HB 5225 (Opsommer) Weapons; firearms; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise.

HB 5282 (Rendon) Weapons; other; transportation of firearms for lawful purpose; expand.

SB 760 (Green) Weapons; firearms; definition of pistol; modify.

SB 761 (Kowall) Weapons; firearms; definition of pistol; modify.

SB 762 (Robertson) Weapons; firearms; definition of pistol; modify.

[spartywrx]

NRA-ILA sent out an email blast on this bill yesterday

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2012/05/michigan-house-committee-considers-legislation-to-repeal-permit-to-purchase-and-registration-this-thursday,-may-17.aspx (http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2012/05/michigan-house-committee-considers-legislation-to-repeal-permit-to-purchase-and-registration-this-thursday,-may-17.aspx)

Looks like the plan is to introduce substitute language to HB 5225 to get rid of our purchase permits completely and return us to the system that exists in 44 other free states (eg everywhere except the liberal coasts). With no offense to our open carry with a cpl friends, I think the NRA is trying to do the best thing here by eliminating the permits.

I will be advocating for a total repeal of the permit system at the meeting. Anyone who can make it please join me.

[spartywrx]

two more bills added


HB 5498 (LeBlanc) Criminal procedure; sentencing guidelines; sentencing guidelines for certain firearm violations; revise to reflect changes in substantive laws.

HB 5499 (Franz) Crimes; weapons; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise.

[spartywrx]

AAR of committee meeting.

NRA ILA guy was there and did a good job of explaining how stupid our permit laws are. Paul Opsommer (R-Dewitt) is the sponsor of the bill to kill the permit system. He seems to be the point man on this issue.

All seemed to be in favor of the bill until MSP spoke.

MSP is opposed to the substitute language to eliminate the permit system. They claim that over the past 18 months 400+ pistols have been registered that turned out to be stolen. He also gave some story about a killer down in Georgia's gun making its way up to Michigan and the cops catching it here. He also stated that only 45% of handgun sales in Michigan are via FFL. The word "gun show loophole" was not used but you can bet that he was hinting at that concept during his testimony. The MSP firearms chief lady was there as well but did not speak.


The bill was not voted on this week. Only testimony on the substitute language was heard. The text of the bill that you can find on the legislature's site was not discussed this week. It will be heard next week along with a vote on the substitute language and a vote on the bill


Edit: To anyone who can take next Thursday off and has been impacted negatively by the permit system, Rep Opsommer's aide strongly suggests you contact the committee members or testify in person next week. He stated personal impact of the law would help win over committee members.

[spartywrx]

oh and to all those above in this thread, there was zero talk of a FOID system.

[luckless]

AAR of committee meeting.


MSP is opposed to the substitute language to eliminate the permit system. They claim that over the past 18 months 400+ pistols have been registered that turned out to be stolen. He also gave some story about a killer down in Georgia's gun making its way up to Michigan and the cops catching it here. He also stated that only 45% of handgun sales in Michigan are via FFL.




Thanks for the update, Sparty.

I would like to know how many of these stolen pistols were returned to their owners or if anyone convicted for stealing these 400+ guns. As far as that goes, it would be nice to know if the murderer in GA was convicted using MSP registration info. "Figures don't lie but liars always figure."

All of the stolen guns and murder weapons received during their "buy-back" programs were destroyed with the promise of no traces of the guns or arrests for the sellers.

[who dat]

How many guns were sold and/or registered in Michigan in the 18 months that the MSP claims to have found 400 stolen ones?

How many guns have been registered in Michigan in Michigan totally?

What percentage of the total is the 400?

Is that worth the $$$$ spent to have a tracking system that's only purpose is to know who has handguns for future confiscation?

End registration now.

[spartywrx]

Okay so as everyone can tell I care about this issue

I made an auto emailer to email the clerk of the Judiciary committee. Its a standard form you fill out and it sends an email with a message. You can edit the message any way you want.

Edit snip. new email system created

You enter your name, city, and email and click submit. You will go on record as supporting the bill.

Spread it around to your friends and family. :banana:

any questions PM me or my email is listed on the form.

[sgtlmj]

Stolen gun tracking could be accomplished by simply having gun owners keep track of the make/model/sn of their firearms. (everyone should do this with their valuables anyway) All that is needed if a gun is stolen is to enter its vitals into NCIC and if it shows up again the system will spit out a hit.

I'm not saying that it should be mandatory, but funnel some of the "registration" funds to printing fliers or free logbooks that FFLs, gunshops and clubs could hand out educating gun owners on the benefit of keeping their guns' info written down somewhere.

You want the possibilty of recovering your gun in the unlikely event that it gets stolen? Write down the info and keep it safe. So simple. I'm surprised that the NRA, NSSF or someone hasn't thought of this as an educational program.

[shred]

Any updates on what happened today? I checked the Michigan legislature website and it says "reported with recommendation with substitute H-3" but I have no idea what that means.

[spartywrx]

Any updates on what happened today? I checked the Michigan legislature website and it says "reported with recommendation with substitute H-3" but I have no idea what that means.
Everything passed.

Testimony from the email system got us 192 emails sent in!

I had to move to Kalamazoo today so I missed the hearing.

[midwestfisherman]

From the NRA-ILA email:

Michigan House Committee Votes to Repeal Permit to Purchase Today

After two weeks of consideration, the Michigan House Judiciary Committee today passed House Bill 5225 as amended; important and long-overdue legislation that would eliminate the state handgun “permit-to-purchase” and registration requirements. This committee also approved House Bill 5498, sponsored by state Representative Richard LeBlanc (D-18 ), and House Bill 5499, sponsored by state Representative Ray Franz (R-101). All three bills were supported by the Republican members of this House committee and not a single Democrat voted to support any of them. All three bills now go to the full House for a vote.

HB 5225 as amended would abolish the bureaucratic “permit-to-purchase” handguns which became obsolete when the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) took effect in 1998. Under the current state system, gun buyers must apply with their local law enforcement agency and pass a written test before being authorized to buy a handgun. This “permit” is valid for only one gun and it expires after ten days. Since 1998, federal law has required a national criminal records check for the purchase of any firearm from any gun dealer in every state. Some of the key points of HB 5225 as amended are:

Repeal the state requirement for someone to ask for police permission to purchase a firearm by traveling to a local police station and obtaining a permit to purchase.
Repeal the requirement to register a completely legally purchased and owned firearm by a law-abiding citizen to be registered with the government through the police.
Adopt the use of the federally-funded National Instant Criminal Background Check System.
Default to the federal standard of prohibited persons and each purchase would still require a background check.
Cut Michigan’s costs by using the federally-administered instant background check system and eliminate wasted man-hours of tracking lawful gun owners in Michigan.
The NRA has been working diligently to repeal this antiquated, costly and unnecessary obstacle for gun owners and has coordinated with several state Representatives to produce the new language for HB 5225. Its two companion bills also passed in this committee.

These three bills passed the committee today despite the last-minute change in position of the Michigan State Police. Although the MSP had stated their neutrality since HB 5225’s introduction, they changed their position at the last minute today and tried to sabotage their passage. At this time, the MSP is officially opposed the HB 5225 and will be working against our attempts to remove these obsolete state laws.

This is not the first time the MSP has been on the wrong side of an important pro-gun bill. For example, during the concealed carry debate, the MSP actively opposed that bill claiming that law-abiding citizens were not responsible enough to carry firearms for self-defense and that violent crime would skyrocket. They have been proven wrong on concealed carry and they are wrong to oppose a rights restoration bill such as HB 5225.

Thank you to our members for contacting the House committee members prior to today's hearing. All NRA members across Michigan now need to contact your state Representative TODAY and respectfully urge him or her to support HB 5225. To find your state Representative’s contact information, please click here.

[shred]

Anyone know how to find out when the House will vote on this?

[spartywrx]

I'll post this in all of the threads following these bills

A couple points

1. The full House vote is expected sometime in June. This means the time to contact your reps is NOW. Email, call, snail mail them. Who is your rep? Click here to find them: http://www.house.mi.gov/mhrpublic/. Read point #3 before you email!

2. The State Police (and Chiefs of Police) are officially opposed to the bill (much like they opposed concealed carry). This makes passage harder. It would be good to note something along the lines of what the NRA ILA said in their last email blast. Do so politely and don't bash the MSP. Interesting to note that the Sheriffs (an elected official) do not have a position on the bill.

NRA ILA:

At this time, the MSP is officially opposed the HB 5225 and will be working against our attempts to remove these obsolete state laws.
This is not the first time the MSP has been on the wrong side of an important pro-gun bill. For example, during the concealed carry debate, the MSP actively opposed that bill claiming that law-abiding citizens were not responsible enough to carry firearms for self-defense and that violent crime would skyrocket. They have been proven wrong on concealed carry and they are wrong to oppose a rights restoration bill such as HB 5225.

3. If your rep is a Republican or a "blue dog Democrat" type, contact them and politely ask them to support HB 5498, HB 5499, and HB 5225 (they come as a package). If your rep is a typical Democrat, contact them to oppose HB 5644. Hopefully if we create a fight over Stand Your Ground they won't see registration repeal coming.

I'll be following this and will try to think of a way to make a form email for your rep. The total count of emails sent in support of repeal of registration was 192. Great job guys!

[JJ1989]

I've noticed a lot more pro gun legislation being passed now than has in the past. I couldn't quote the source but I believe a news media said that the rise in concealed pistol licenses, shall-issue states, easily concealable pistols etc. is due to a fear for safety growing from the fact that police protection has been less than adequate. I could name off at least one legal decision which would seem to enforce that idea. I'm not saying this is the case, but is it possible that MSP is trying to take a stance against obsolescence?

So then, when they talk about these "400 guns" or what not, of which there would be other more viable ways to track, is really just that. A stance against obsolescence, and it rhymes.

[spartywrx]

I've noticed a lot more pro gun legislation being passed now than has in the past. I couldn't quote the source but I believe a news media said that the rise in concealed pistol licenses, shall-issue states, easily concealable pistols etc. is due to a fear for safety growing from the fact that police protection has been less than adequate. I could name off at least one legal decision which would seem to enforce that idea. I'm not saying this is the case, but is it possible that MSP is trying to take a stance against obsolescence?

So then, when they talk about these "400 guns" or what not, of which there would be other more viable ways to track, is really just that. A stance against obsolescence, and it rhymes.

There is also a noticeable difference in who controls the steering wheel of the legislature and governorship. Gun bills that used to never get brought up for a vote (which is controlled by the majority party) now get brought up for a vote.

Elections matter. You are seeing the results of November 2010.

[luckless]

There is also a noticeable difference in who controls the steering wheel of the legislature and governorship. Gun bills that used to never get brought up for a vote (which is controlled by the majority party) now get brought up for a vote.

Elections matter. You are seeing the results of November 2010.

Not necessarily. Granholm signed a lot of pro gun legislation with the help of both sides of the aisle. George Bush, by contrast, increased gun control with the help of a republican congress. He then asked them to get the AWB to his desk and promised to sign it! A big "thanks" goes to pro-gunners from both sides for dodging THAT bullet!

We now have all three branches of government controlled by the gop in Michigan. If they were truly pro 2A these laws would have been a "done deal".

[TheQ]

Elections matter. You are seeing the results of November 2010.

Yes...PFZ repeal is going so far. Oh thank you, great Republican Legislature Overlords, we bow at your feet.

/sarc

[detroit_fan]

Spoke to my rep today over the phone, he told me he doesn't see any reason he won't support HB5225, unless some sort of negative amendments get added.

If you want to see registration repealed PLEASE CONTACT YOUR STATE REP NOW!

We have some "gun rights" groups in MI that are not helping with these bills, this so this effort really has to be from the individuals, and we can make the difference. We may not have a shot at this passing after the Nov elections, so please do what you can to help while we have a chance.

[spartywrx]

Yes...PFZ repeal is going so far. Oh thank you, great Republican Legislature Overlords, we bow at your feet.

/sarc

Repeal registration first. Our rights were taken away piece by piece.

You have to ask what will the GOP and blue dog democrats gain for voting for a repeal of PFZs? Non stop negative coverage in every newspaper in Michigan. No one knows about this registration repeal. They are not being hounded by the press about it. Now is the time to act. Never forget how the Hughes Amendment was passed.

[spartywrx]

Bill will be voted on next week. Please contact your legislators today to ask them to support this bill.


Find your rep here http://www.house.mi.gov/mhrpublic/


Here's a easy and quick copy and paste

"Please support HB 5498, HB 5499, and HB 5225 when they are voted upon in the full House. These bills are much needed legislation to update Michigan's gun laws to comply with federal law. They eliminate a costly system that is duplicative of federal law that Michigan is required to follow anyways. Please vote YES on these bills."

[langenc]

Hitler loved registration!!

[zigziggityzoo]

Hitler loved registration!!
misnomer.

[spartywrx]

Click here to find your legislator and send a unique message (vote yes on HB 5498, HB 5499, HB 5225)
http://www.house.mi.gov/mhrpublic/

Or if you're lazy:


BUMP for new emailer system

Click the link to send a message of support to your specific representative to repeal pistol registration! The emailer will send a message to your representative in the House.

snip. new email system created

The House votes next week so share this will everyone you know!

[TheQ]

BUMP for new emailer system

Click the link to send a message of support to your specific representative to repeal pistol registration! The emailer will send a message to your representative in the House.

http://www.emailmeform.com/builder/form/G9065wq8533Zu2Ea7xe0

The House votes next week so share this will everyone you know!

Nifty tool. I'll have to start using it!

[jdixon22]

Just e-mailed my rep thru the link..

[spartywrx]

For everyone on twitter here is a partial (some don't do twitter) list of twitter handles of state representatives. A friendly reminder early next week would be great. They meet Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. A quick tweet to remind them to vote yes can't hurt:

House of Reps Twitter list (https://twitter.com/#!/spartywrx/michigan-house-of-reps/members) (let me know if it doesn't work)

[luckless]

I sent the email. I am not very optimistic, though. There are only 14 or 15 session days before the election. To get anything passed in that short amount of time would take a herculean effort or a miracle. The folks in power have not exactly been stalwart defenders of liberty in the last 18 months so I am praying for the miracle.

[spartywrx]

Bump

Bill will be voted upon this week (Tues-Thurs). If it passes look out for the Senate committee email system.

[IndustrialRescue]

I have emailed EVERY GOP Representative, as well as every GOP state senator.

[luckless]

I have emailed EVERY GOP Representative, as well as every GOP state senator.
Why not email all of them? There aren't enough pro-2A legislators in the gop to make a majority or we would have seen some progun legislation signed already. We will need pro-gunners from both sides of the aisle to see any progress.

[gw927]

I wrote an email to my state rep on Friday. I received an email reply from him this morning.

Although his reply didn't say he was for or against the bill, his reply left me feeling as though he wasn't thrilled about the bill and may very possibly not vote in favor of the bill.

[spartywrx]

Bump for House is in session right now.

Abortion protesters (not sure which side) are yelling and screaming and the guys in the red jackets (House security) is running around trying to quiet them down. We'll see if they get to our bills today.

Copy and paste into your browser to watch.

mms://mhrwms.house.mi.gov/session

http://www.house.mi.gov/htv.asp

[Tallbear]

HB 5225 of 2011 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2011-HB-5225)
Weapons; firearms; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise. Amends secs. 2, 5a & 5d of 1927 PA 372 (MCL 28.422 et seq.) & adds sec. 12c.
Last Action: 6/12/2012 placed on third reading

[zigziggityzoo]

Just heard back from my Rep.


Thank you for taking the time to contact me regarding HB 5225, HB 5499 and HB 5498. I appreciate your feedback, and I will take your input into consideration when this legislation is on the floor. If you have any questions regarding specific legislation, feel free to give our office a call at (517) 373-0828.

Best,

Mark

[rgorial]

Passed House vote today!

433 Yeas - 74 Nays

Now, on to the Senate!

[zigziggityzoo]

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2011-HB-5225

I wonder who voted what.

[detroit_fan]

Passed House vote today!

433 Yeas - 74 Nays

Now, on to the Senate!
Doesn't the MI House of Reps only have 110 members?

[spartywrx]

Doesn't the MI House of Reps only have 110 members?

No photo ID is required to vote

:mrgreen:


(actually it was 75-35)

[rgorial]

Oops...

Yes, only 110

The ROLL CALL number was #433

74 Yeas - 36 Nays...

[detroit_fan]

No photo ID is required to vote

:mrgreen:




I almost spit my drink out when i read that, thanks for the laugh

[Roundballer]

These are the three tie-barred bills:

HB 5225 - Roll Call # 433, Yeas-74, Nays-36
HB 5498 - Roll Call # 434, Yeas-75, Nays-35
HB 5499 - Roll Call # 436, Yeas-75, Nays-35

I'm with ZIG....."I wonder who voted what."

It looks like one person "flip-floped", or figured it didn't make any difference after 5225 passed. I wonder who?

[zigziggityzoo]

HJ 61 should be up tomorrow or Friday, we'll know for certain then.

[detroit_fan]

HJ 61 should be up tomorrow or Friday, we'll know for certain then.
I hope so. My rep indicated he would most likely be a yes when I spoke to him, hopefully he supported them. now if only my state senator (R. Richardville) would follow through with what he told me and get something significant passed this year.

[RDak]

Great news!!

[Divegeek]

They just posted HJ 61
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28r0v0ui3glueed15554gstu55%29%29/documents/2011-2012/Journal/House/pdf/2012-HJ-06-13-061.pdf

It looks like the Dem Leader of the House (Hammel) switched after the first vote.

[zigziggityzoo]

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2012-HJ-06-13-061

Here's a good link to it.

Edit: Look at that! My Ann Arbor house representative voted in favor of pro-gun legislation.

[hopeitsfast]

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2012-HJ-06-13-061

Here's a good link to it.

Edit: Look at that! My Ann Arbor house representative voted in favor of pro-gun legislation.
And as usual mine didn't (Barnett). I can't even count the amount of times I've emailed that useless rep only to get a canned response filled with BS. I swear she doesn't even think about the issues at hand, she just votes no on any pro-gun legislation.

[Roundballer]

Thanks for the link to the Journal.

You guys in the 17th House district have a job to do, your Rep does not have a clue.


Rep. Cavanagh, having reserved the right to explain his protest against the passage of the bill, made the following statement:

“Mr. Speaker and members of the House:

House Bills 5225, 5498 and 5499 - I voted NO on House Bills 5225, 5498 and 5499 because this legislation guts the Michigan’s pistol registration and licensing process which includes gutting provisions that prohibits the selling of a firearm to a minor. In Michigan 48% of gun purchases are between private individuals and this legislation strips mechanisms put in place by the state to control these private sales. With Michigan having four out of ten of the deadliest cities in America and the recent rash of shootings involving young victims we should not be looking to abolish the only gate-keeping system we have.”

[zigziggityzoo]

Because criminals who break other laws would be more than willing to follow this one.

[who dat]

So it's still against Federal law to sell a handgun to a minor in a private sale, right?

[leavitron]

These are the three tie-barred bills:

HB 5225 - Roll Call # 433, Yeas-74, Nays-36
HB 5498 - Roll Call # 434, Yeas-75, Nays-35
HB 5499 - Roll Call # 436, Yeas-75, Nays-35
WOHOO!!!

[leavitron]

Rep. Cavanagh, having reserved the right to explain his protest against the passage of the bill, made the following statement:

“Mr. Speaker and members of the House:

House Bills 5225, 5498 and 5499 - I voted NO on House Bills 5225, 5498 and 5499 because this legislation guts the Michigan’s pistol registration and licensing process which includes gutting provisions that prohibits the selling of a firearm to a minor. In Michigan 48% of gun purchases are between private individuals and this legislation strips mechanisms put in place by the state to control these private sales. With Michigan having four out of ten of the deadliest cities in America and the recent rash of shootings involving young victims we should not be looking to abolish the only gate-keeping system we have.”
Mr Cavanagh,

I respect your right to remain ignorant and/or ill-informed. It is your right to live a life that is willfully ignorant of the facts. And I respect that. However, you DO NOT have a right to make legislation that is based upon your willful ignorance. Legislation needs to be based on facts and facts alone. So you either need to recuse yourself from the discussion or become acquainted with the facts.

Even if these bills did remove Michigan law regarding the selling of firearms to minors, there would still be federal legislation in place restricting the sale of firearms to minors. Pretending that the federal law doesn't exist speaks volumes about your ignorance on the matter. Please refrain from any more commenting about this legislation until you are knowledgeable of the facts. Thank you!

Regards,

Leavitron

[who dat]

Mr Cavanagh,

I respect your right to remain ignorant and/or ill-informed. It is your right to live a life that is willfully ignorant of the facts. And I respect that. However, you DO NOT have a right to make legislation that is based upon your willful ignorance. Legislation needs to be based on facts and facts alone. So you either need to recuse yourself from the discussion or become acquainted with the facts.

Even if these bills did remove Michigan law regarding the selling of firearms to minors, there would still be federal legislation in place restricting the sale of firearms to minors. Pretending that the federal law doesn't exist speaks volumes about your ignorance on the matter. Please refrain from any more commenting about this legislation until you are knowledgeable of the facts. Thank you!

Regards,

Leavitron:thumbup:

[backhandman]

Mr Cavanagh,

I respect your right to remain ignorant and/or ill-informed. It is your right to live a life that is willfully ignorant of the facts. And I respect that. However, you DO NOT have a right to make legislation that is based upon your willful ignorance. Legislation needs to be based on facts and facts alone. So you either need to recuse yourself from the discussion or become acquainted with the facts.

Even if these bills did remove Michigan law regarding the selling of firearms to minors, there would still be federal legislation in place restricting the sale of firearms to minors. Pretending that the federal law doesn't exist speaks volumes about your ignorance on the matter. Please refrain from any more commenting about this legislation until you are knowledgeable of the facts. Thank you!


Regards,

Leavitron


Boo Yah! great email

[detroit_fan]

excuse my ignorance, but does this have to pass the senate before they go on break or can they resume progress on it when they come back?

[leavitron]

Boo Yah! great email
I didn't send it. I just put it here to express my frustration. Y'all are welcome to copy my e-mail and send it to him or any other rep who doesn't get it. I don't require any credit, either. Have at it!!!

[derrabe]

I know the House vote is over, and I emailed my rep ahead of time to ask for his support, D14 rep choose to vote Nay. I just emailed him asking for an explanation of his actions. If I get a response I will share it.

[derrabe]

Here is the response I got:


Thank you for your e-mail today. I appreciate your thoughts and apologize for not responding to your earlier communication. The reason I voted against this bill is that the bill was opposed by all major police organizations, as the groups charged with the maintenance of the peace and civilization as we know it, I feel their boots on the ground had to be listened to on this issue.



Again, I appreciate hearing from you and hope you will continue to contact me regarding issues that are important to you.



Paul Clemente

State Representative

My question is it true that police departments are opposed to this and if so why are they against it?

[detroit_fan]

Here is the response I got:



My question is it true that police departments are opposed to this and fi so why?
i know for a fact that the State Police testified against it.

[who dat]

i know for a fact that the State Police testified against it.It's all about the $$. They would give up a little $ for very little work. Once the $ flows into a government organization it is very difficult to stop it.

[spartywrx]

Here is the response I got:



My question is it true that police departments are opposed to this and if so why are they against it?

They like having a registry of all your guns.

Trust me, if a bill came up to treat all guns like pistols the MSP would be all for it. Look at New Jersey, that's the goal for gun grabbers.

[spartywrx]

bump


The pistol registration bills passed the House! We need your help to get the bill out of the Senate. The bills are now in the Senate Judiciary Committee. Here is the new form to send an email to the clerk of the Judiciary Committee in support of this bill. I'll also be sending out an email to everyone who sent one in to update them on this bill.

Here's the link

http://www.emailmeform.com/builder/form/Co5e23UTgh7

[RDak]

Mr Cavanagh,

I respect your right to remain ignorant and/or ill-informed. It is your right to live a life that is willfully ignorant of the facts. And I respect that. However, you DO NOT have a right to make legislation that is based upon your willful ignorance. Legislation needs to be based on facts and facts alone. So you either need to recuse yourself from the discussion or become acquainted with the facts.

Even if these bills did remove Michigan law regarding the selling of firearms to minors, there would still be federal legislation in place restricting the sale of firearms to minors. Pretending that the federal law doesn't exist speaks volumes about your ignorance on the matter. Please refrain from any more commenting about this legislation until you are knowledgeable of the facts. Thank you!



Regards,

Leavitron

Great response!! :thumbup:

I'm happy to say that my Rep. Somerville voted yes on all three bills.

[45/70fan]

Here is the response I got:



My question is it true that police departments are opposed to this and if so why are they against it?

You need to remind this representative that he works for the people not the MSP because they also work for the people not the other way around.
Who pays both of them their wages?

[who dat]

Great response!! :thumbup:
Except that he didn't send it. :whistle:

[king2517]

How does this bill effect private sales?

[zigziggityzoo]

How does this bill effect private sales?
effectively no more purchase permits to verify the buyer is lawful. As is the case in MOST other states, unless you have reason to believe they're unlawful, you can sell it to them. The onus is on the buyer to make sure they're legally allowed to possess.

[Leader]

How does this bill effect private sales?

This makes private sales of a handgun the same as a long gun.
No paperwork needed.

[Pyzik]

effectively no more purchase permits to verify the buyer is lawful. As is the case in MOST other states, unless you have reason to believe they're unlawful, you can sell it to them. The onus is on the buyer to make sure they're legally allowed to possess.
Could this be interpreted into "it is the responsibility of the seller to verify that the buyer is not ineligible to own the weapon"?

[zigziggityzoo]

Could this be interpreted into "it is the responsibility of the seller to verify that the buyer is not ineligible to own the weapon"?
No. If it could I would have said that.

Your responsibility is, as a reasonable person, to observe. If the buyer SAYS or DOES something that a reasonable person would interpret to mean he's ineligible to buy, you have a responsibility to not sell it to the person.

Otherwise, like any other reasonable person, you should assume the person is eligible to buy.

[leavitron]

bump


The pistol registration bills passed the House! We need your help to get the bill out of the Senate. The bills are now in the Senate Judiciary Committee. Here is the new form to send an email to the clerk of the Judiciary Committee in support of this bill. I'll also be sending out an email to everyone who sent one in to update them on this bill.

Here's the link

http://www.emailmeform.com/builder/form/Co5e23UTgh7
Done! Thank you for providing this great service. My hat is off to you, good sir!


Great response!! :thumbup:

I'm happy to say that my Rep. Somerville voted yes on all three bills.
I appreciate that. I made a bad impression before. I'm trying to make a turn for the better.

[leavitron]

Except that he didn't send it. :whistle:
Yes, it was just venting. But anyone else is welcome to use it as a template for sending a note of frustration to their rep.

[Pyzik]

No. If it could I would have said that.

Your responsibility is, as a reasonable person, to observe. If the buyer SAYS or DOES something that a reasonable person would interpret to mean he's ineligible to buy, you have a responsibility to not sell it to the person.

Otherwise, like any other reasonable person, you should assume the person is eligible to buy.
Thanks Zig, it must have just been the way I read your post. I know this is how it is for long guns and thought you were saying we would have more of a burden with this bill. Thanks for clarifying.

[Pyzik]

My turd of a rep voted "nay". I have written two snail mail letters and three emails over the past few months to this guy and received exactly ZERO response. :rant:
When elections come up I am going to make it my personal mission support his opposition in any/every way possible.

[Tallbear]

HB 5225 of 2011 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2011-HB-5225)
Weapons; firearms; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise. Amends secs. 2, 5a & 5d of 1927 PA 372 (MCL 28.422 et seq.) & adds sec. 12c.
Last Action: 6/14/2012 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY

[leavitron]

bump


The pistol registration bills passed the House! We need your help to get the bill out of the Senate. The bills are now in the Senate Judiciary Committee. Here is the new form to send an email to the clerk of the Judiciary Committee in support of this bill. I'll also be sending out an email to everyone who sent one in to update them on this bill.

Here's the link

http://www.emailmeform.com/builder/form/Co5e23UTgh7
FYI you might want to tweak your form. I just received an e-mail from the committee clerk stating that my full name and full address had to be in the e-mail in order for it to be presented to the committee.

[Roundballer]

bump


The pistol registration bills passed the House! We need your help to get the bill out of the Senate. The bills are now in the Senate Judiciary Committee. Here is the new form to send an email to the clerk of the Judiciary Committee in support of this bill. I'll also be sending out an email to everyone who sent one in to update them on this bill.

Here's the link

http://www.emailmeform.com/builder/form/Co5e23UTgh7
Yep...I got an e-mail back too:


Hello,

Thank you for contacting the Senate Judiciary Committee regarding House Bills 5225, 5498, and 5499. In an effort to honor your request to include your email as part of the official committee record, it is necessary for you to provide your full name and home address. If you would still like your email added to the committee record, kindly respond to this email with the requested information and I will see that it is put into the record.

Sincerely,

Lauren Michalak
Committee Clerk
Senate Majority Committee Clerks
(517) 373-5323
lmichalak@senate.michigan.gov


It looks like all that they want is to respond to the message and give full name and address. Of course this gives them verification (sort of) that you are a Michigan resident.

[Pyzik]

I got the same response.

[romesr]

I receive the same email and I also sent several emails to my representative voicing my displeasure in him. And I will make it my job to vote against him.

[spartywrx]

Update 6/15/12 3:30pm

Some people have been getting their emails kicked back from the senate clerk. She REQUIRES an address so that you can prove you're not a spam bot and you live in Michigan. She's been emailing people who didn't provide a home address. Sorry about that. Your home address is set for deletion in the program after it is sent out when you use the form. The only info I use is your email to send you an update (for when its on the full Senate floor, and then one to get Snyder to sign it). All other info is deleted.

[Pyzik]

Well, I made up some simple fliers today to grab folks attention with info on the bills and how to contact their Senator and the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Firearm's Exchange and Double Action allowed me to place them in their stores for customers to see. Firing Line and Center Mass said that the fliers needed to be approved first.

[spartywrx]

Well, I made up some simple fliers today to grab folks attention with info on the bills and how to contact their Senator and the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Firearm's Exchange and Double Action allowed me to place them in their stores for customers to see. Firing Line and Center Mass said that the fliers needed to be approved first.

Thank you. You get a secret "gun lobby" decoder ring and a 6 pack for your efforts!

http://file.vintageadbrowser.com/l-s4hlv60oez7jk9.jpg

[Pyzik]

Heck, if I get all that for what little I did, what did you get for that letter generator!?

[luckless]

He should get a twelve pack, at least.l

[spartywrx]

Update on operation annoy senate clerk.

I drove up to the Grand Rapids gun shows this weekend. I passed out some flyers in the parking lot of the one at the 28th street showplace. I got a surprising response from people who I didn't expect to be interested (the Mexicans at the flea market next door). I also got told by a few patrons of the gun show that they were a-ok with registration of pistols. One guy even flipped me off as he drove by (I was holding a small sign saying repeal pistol registration). He parked and walked into the gun show [%|]. I just laughed it off.

The gentlemen who run Silver Bullet gun shop were very receptive and put some of my flyers out for customers. It was also the first time I had been there. It was a really nice place. Anyone looking to support a gun shop that cares about this issue I would recommend Silver Bullet in Grand Rapids.

[GarrettJ]

...I also got told by a few patrons of the gun show that they were a-ok with registration of pistols...
Actually, I'm not surprised. I've lived most of my life in Not-Michigan. That being the case, I did not grow up with some of the oddities that we have here. I don't have the "that's the way it's always been, so it must be okay" mentality.

Actually when I moved here, I decided people must need to hit their head repeatedly against the wall in order to develop the screwy attitudes they have.

For example, the "safety check" has been done away with for several years now. But how many people do you run into that are still proud to have their little green cards? They will pull them out of their wallet and show them off and talk about how well they liked bending over to get them.

People here want to keep registration because, coupled with the state's screwy definitions, it allows them to carry a loaded shotgun in the trunk of their car. My thought here is if that ability is of such worth, why not work to change the law to change a CPL to a CWP (concealed weapons permit)?

Yeah - I run into people all the time who can't seem to fathom a world where pistol registration doesn't exist. "How will we buy used guns?" they ask. My response is that you do it the same way they do in 40-some other states.

I'm not sure how to combat stupid, but there are quite a number of intelligent people who have it.

[who dat]

Actually, I'm not surprised. I've lived most of my life in Not-Michigan. That being the case, I did not grow up with some of the oddities that we have here. I don't have the "that's the way it's always been, so it must be okay" mentality.

Actually when I moved here, I decided people must need to hit their head repeatedly against the wall in order to develop the screwy attitudes they have.

For example, the "safety check" has been done away with for several years now. But how many people do you run into that are still proud to have their little green cards? They will pull them out of their wallet and show them off and talk about how well they liked bending over to get them.

People here want to keep registration because, coupled with the state's screwy definitions, it allows them to carry a loaded shotgun in the trunk of their car. My thought here is if that ability is of such worth, why not work to change the law to change a CPL to a CWP (concealed weapons permit)?

Yeah - I run into people all the time who can't seem to fathom a world where pistol registration doesn't exist. "How will we buy used guns?" they ask. My response is that you do it the same way they do in 40-some other states.

I'm not sure how to combat stupid, but there are quite a number of intelligent people who have it.GR and the surrounding areas are certainly different, but you got me on the bolded part. What part of registering pistols lets you carry a loaded shotgun in your trunk?

[GarrettJ]

What part of registering pistols lets you carry a loaded shotgun in your trunk?
I've come across: "My shotgun is registered as a pistol, co I can carry it with my CPL. If it's not registered as a pistol, you wouldn't be able to carry it loaded."

This in response to me complaining about gun registration in general.

Refer to my previous comment about beating one's head against the wall.

[who dat]

I've come across: "My shotgun is registered as a pistol, co I can carry it with my CPL. If it's not registered as a pistol, you wouldn't be able to carry it loaded."

This in response to me complaining about gun registration in general.

Refer to my previous comment about beating one's head against the wall.OK, but you realize you cannot just register a shotgun as a pistol. It has to meet the definition of "Michigan Pistol". Under 30" long and a few other things.

In fact, that law is either gone or soon to be gone.

[GarrettJ]

OK, but you realize you cannot just register a shotgun as a pistol. It has to meet the definition of "Michigan Pistol". Under 30" long and a few other things.

In fact, that law is either gone or soon to be gone.
Yes, I am aware of the difference between the federal definition of a shotgun and a "MI pistol". I assume most everyone here is aware of the difference as well, so I didn't bother to clarify.

If you look around here on MGO, you will see people referring to carrying a loaded "shotgun" or "rifle" in the trunk when they are really talking about a "MI Pistol".

[LiveFire]

I am happy to say my Rep voted for this and he got a nice letter from me thanking him. Hopefully my Senator feels the same way.

[Yance]

This is an event page to spread the word about HB 5225, it has a link in it to email the Senate Reps in support of the passage of this bill. Please take a moment to send the email and to also share the event with people you know.

http://www.facebook.com/events/164851363648796/

[sarge5121976]

My rep voted against this bill, so i sent him an email stating my disappointment.
Heres his response


Thank you for contacting me and sharing your disappointment of my vote on House Bill 5225. I appreciate you contacting me and I am pleased that we can discuss our differing views on this legislation.

I felt this legislation basically limits Michigan's pistol registration and licensing process, including background checks for proposed gun owners and provisions that prohibit the selling of a firearm to a minor. While it is accurate in that a federal background check system exists, it only covers about 52% of gun purchases in Michigan, particularly those involving a federally registered firearms dealer. The remaining 48% of gun purchases are between private individuals. Under current Michigan law, all individuals seeking to purchase a gun must obtain a 10-day permit from a local law enforcement agency. This permit indicates that (1) a person has undergone the required background check under law; and (2) as a result, the person may legally own a gun in Michigan. Individuals who have personal protection orders against them, certain criminal convictions, or those who have been adjudged mentally ill are unable to purchase or carry a gun.

I believe the criminal background check component of Michigan's gun law is extremely important, especially as it relates to sales between private individuals. Last year, there were over 60,000 pistol sales between private individuals. While I am supportive of 2nd amendment rights, which can be seen in my voting record as a member of the House Natural Resources, Tourism and Outdoor Recreation Committee, I was not convinced these changes were necessary in light of how the current law is working. In addition, local police forces were not supportive of these bills as written.

Again, thank you for your correspondence. While we disagree on this issue, I hope that you will continue to reach out to me in the future to express your views on public policy issues. If I may be of assistance to you in the future, please do not hesitate to contact me or my office.

Respectfully,



Harold L. Haugh
State Representative
District 42

[sarge5121976]

I also emailed my Senator telling him i support this bill, and heres his response.

Thank you for your recent letter regarding your support for House Bill 5225 which would eliminate the requirement for a purchase permit for pistols. It is important that you have taken the time to express your opinions to me.

This bill has been referred to the Senate Judiciary Committee. I monitored this bill as it moved through the House of Representatives. I will be meeting with law enforcement professionals to hear their opinions on the bill. I also look forward to hearing testimony on this bill in committee. Please be aware that many times bills have a tendency to change from their originally introduced version. As this bill makes its way through the legislative process, please know I will keep your views in mind.

Again, thank you for writing. If I may be of assistance in further state matters, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,



Steve Bieda
State Senator
9th District

[spartywrx]

My rep voted against this bill, so i sent him an email stating my disappointment.
Heres his response


Thank you for contacting me and sharing your disappointment of my vote on House Bill 5225. I appreciate you contacting me and I am pleased that we can discuss our differing views on this legislation.

I felt this legislation basically limits Michigan's pistol registration and licensing process, including background checks for proposed gun owners and provisions that prohibit the selling of a firearm to a minor. While it is accurate in that a federal background check system exists, it only covers about 52% of gun purchases in Michigan, particularly those involving a federally registered firearms dealer. The remaining 48% of gun purchases are between private individuals. Under current Michigan law, all individuals seeking to purchase a gun must obtain a 10-day permit from a local law enforcement agency. This permit indicates that (1) a person has undergone the required background check under law; and (2) as a result, the person may legally own a gun in Michigan. Individuals who have personal protection orders against them, certain criminal convictions, or those who have been adjudged mentally ill are unable to purchase or carry a gun.

I believe the criminal background check component of Michigan's gun law is extremely important, especially as it relates to sales between private individuals. Last year, there were over 60,000 pistol sales between private individuals. While I am supportive of 2nd amendment rights, which can be seen in my voting record as a member of the House Natural Resources, Tourism and Outdoor Recreation Committee, I was not convinced these changes were necessary in light of how the current law is working. In addition, local police forces were not supportive of these bills as written.

Again, thank you for your correspondence. While we disagree on this issue, I hope that you will continue to reach out to me in the future to express your views on public policy issues. If I may be of assistance to you in the future, please do not hesitate to contact me or my office.

Respectfully,



Harold L. Haugh
State Representative
District 42

translated: ZOMG! GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE!

[luckless]

"I monitored this bill....."

"I also look forward to hearing testimony....."

"I will be meeting with law enforcement professionals to hear their opinions on the bill."

"....many times bills have a tendency to change..."

"...please know I will keep your views in mind."


Sarge, I think your senator is looking for an excuse to vote against this bill.
It seems your rep is being honest about his position on gun control, while your senator is trying to explain why he is more qualified than you to decide if your guns should be registered.

[Pyzik]

WTF am I doing wrong? I am getting seriously irritated. When it was in the House I wrote my rep at total of five times between this and two other bills.
No repsonse.

When I found out this wend to Judiciary Committee I wrote them and my Senator and have received, wait for it, NOTHING.

I get responses on the Federal level when I write, most have been auto responses regarding the individuals stance, whether opposing or agreeing. A couple have even seemed unique. But I get nothing on the State level.

:hot: :cuss:

[sarge5121976]

"I monitored this bill....."

"I also look forward to hearing testimony....."

"I will be meeting with law enforcement professionals to hear their opinions on the bill."

"....many times bills have a tendency to change..."

"...please know I will keep your views in mind."


Sarge, I think your senator is looking for an excuse to vote against this bill.
It seems your rep is being honest about his position on gun control, while your senator is trying to explain why he is more qualified than you to decide if your guns should be registered.

I agree, you pretty much summed up my thoughts when i read his response. We wil see how he votes.

[azsixshooter]

I'm glad I found this thread, I had spent a couple of hours calling everyone on the Judiciary committee when this was first being considered and then I messaged my reps when it went up for the House vote.

Now that it is going to the Senate do we know when it might be voted on? Someone from miopencarry.org told me last night it might not be until the fall. What a bummer, I was hoping the whole process would be done much sooner than that. I hate this wait! I want gun registration in Michigan crushed now! :)

Please let me know if there's anything I can do other than write/call my reps on this. We have to get this passed, it's so important to me.

Thanks,

Steve

[45/70fan]

I agree, you pretty much summed up my thoughts when i read his response. We wil see how he votes.



Steve Bieda
State Senator (should read Democrat)
9th District
Bieda will vote against it, mark my word. He is a firmly entrenched or brainwashed liberal democrat.

These politicians need to be reminded that they work for you and I, not a taxpayer funded bureaucracy or lobby.

[maustin195]

My rep voted against this bill, so i sent him an email stating my disappointment.
Heres his response


Thank you for contacting me and sharing your disappointment of my vote on House Bill 5225. I appreciate you contacting me and I am pleased that we can discuss our differing views on this legislation.

I felt this legislation basically limits Michigan's pistol registration and licensing process, including background checks for proposed gun owners and provisions that prohibit the selling of a firearm to a minor. While it is accurate in that a federal background check system exists, it only covers about 52% of gun purchases in Michigan, particularly those involving a federally registered firearms dealer. The remaining 48% of gun purchases are between private individuals. Under current Michigan law, all individuals seeking to purchase a gun must obtain a 10-day permit from a local law enforcement agency. This permit indicates that (1) a person has undergone the required background check under law; and (2) as a result, the person may legally own a gun in Michigan. Individuals who have personal protection orders against them, certain criminal convictions, or those who have been adjudged mentally ill are unable to purchase or carry a gun.

I believe the criminal background check component of Michigan's gun law is extremely important, especially as it relates to sales between private individuals. Last year, there were over 60,000 pistol sales between private individuals. While I am supportive of 2nd amendment rights, which can be seen in my voting record as a member of the House Natural Resources, Tourism and Outdoor Recreation Committee, I was not convinced these changes were necessary in light of how the current law is working. In addition, local police forces were not supportive of these bills as written.

Again, thank you for your correspondence. While we disagree on this issue, I hope that you will continue to reach out to me in the future to express your views on public policy issues. If I may be of assistance to you in the future, please do not hesitate to contact me or my office.

Respectfully,



Harold L. Haugh
State Representative
District 42
That must be a letter circulated among those voting no. I recieved the same letter word for word from my rep. I really did not expect much but wrote him voicing my opinion. Rep is David Rutledge

[Yance]

Steve Bieda
State Senator (should read Democrat)
9th District
Bieda will vote against it, mark my word. He is a firmly entrenched or brainwashed liberal democrat.

These politicians need to be reminded that they work for you and I, not a taxpayer funded bureaucracy or lobby.

They seem to forget that they represent the needs and wants of the people and all to often interject their person opinions and beliefs into their voting.

[detroit_fan]

I emailed my state rep when this was being voted on and he called me to speak with me about the bill a week or so later. He would not commit 100% at that time to voting yes, but said he did not see any problems with it. Well not only did he vote yes on it, he called me today from his cell phone just to let me know he voted yes and, get ready for this....

he thought it was a very important step towards eliminating and entirely unnecessary bureaucracy.

I can not tell you how happy i was to hear that. not only has he voted yes on this bill, but i have agreed with pretty much everything he has done since being elected 2 years ago. i told him i would be more than happy to vote for him this november and thanked him for his voting record. it is so nice having someone represent you that actually listens to you and votes the way you want. i can i only sympathize with some of you that are stuck with reps who vote down any pro-gun changes to the laws, that must really suck.

[RevDerb]

When is this due to go before the Senate?

[raph84]

I don't see it on the agenda yet. I would say start sending emails/letters or calling the fine folks on the Senate Judiciary committee and see if they can give you any details on status of HB5225

Senate Judiciary committee:

Rick Jones Committee Chair

By Phone: (517) 373-3447

By Fax: (517) 373-5849

By Email: SenRJones@senate.michigan.gov
(Please include name, address, and phone number.)


Tonya Schuitmaker Majority Vice Chair

By Phone: (517) 373-0793

By Fax: (517) 373-5607

By Email: SenTSchuitmaker@senate.michigan.gov

Tory Rocca
By Phone: (517) 373-7315

By Fax: (517) 373-3126

By Email: SenTRocca@senate.michigan.gov

Steve Bieda Minority Chair
By Phone: (517) 373-8360

By Fax: (517) 373-9230

By Email: SenSBieda@senate.michigan.gov


All Senators can also be reached by mail under their name at P.O. Box 30036 Lansing, MI 48909-7536

[langenc]

Hi guys. Forgive my ignorance but what is the actual point of Michigan's pistol registration? I guess I need to understand that first before I can decide who I feel about removal of said registration.

Is it merely to ensure that they end up in Federal records? Or is the state actually keeping their own records?

If merely for Federal record then it seems redundant and stupid. Law abiding citizens are the only ones who are going to obey this. With that in mind, they've already obeyed the law and the weapon was registered at time of legal purchase. Criminals don't give a rip so they don't apply anyway.

If in order to keep a state registration database - well, that seems unconstitutional to me and a waste of resources.


Other than on the cop shows where they say "is it registered....? I dont believe handguns are registered. Run thru NICS yes. Most states one can sell handguns without govts permission and they dont know who owns what--but NOT MICHIGAN.

We should all be for getting rid of registration---HITLER LOVED REGISTRATION and so did Jennifer.

[sgtlmj]

Unless things have changed, several years ago when I ran a LEIN terminal the chances of getting any useful info out of APRS (MI's Pistol Reg System, blah blah) was dismal. 99.999% of the time we ran a make/model/SN of a pistol, we'd get NCIC back right away (whether clear or stolen), and the APRS info might kick out a week later.

I ran myself a couple times and had pistols still registered to me that I had sold decades earlier to other MI residents. My name wasn't even spelled correctly on several of the regs.

[who dat]

Unless things have changed, several years ago when I ran a LEIN terminal the chances of getting any useful info out of APRS (MI's Pistol Reg System, blah blah) was dismal. 99.999% of the time we ran a make/model/SN of a pistol, we'd get NCIC back right away (whether clear or stolen), and the APRS info might kick out a week later.

I ran myself a couple times and had pistols still registered to me that I had sold decades earlier to other MI residents. My name wasn't even spelled correctly on several of the regs.Registration in Michigan has no way to remove an owner, only to add one.

[TCArmory]

I've had our local PD fail to register two of my handguns. :banghead:

Always keep your copy of registration.

[spartywrx]

http://www.chooseomatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/farnsworth.jpg

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE!

Alright everyone. Summer break is over! The Senate Judicary Committee is meeting to discuss this bill:

COMMITTEE: Judiciary
DATE: Wednesday, July 18, 2012
TIME: 9:00 AM
PLACE: Room 110, Farnum Building, 125 W. Allegan Street, Lansing, MI 48933
PHONE: Lauren Michalak (373-5323) Committee Clerk
AGENDA
(snip)
HB 5225 Rep. Opsommer Weapons; firearms; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise.
HB 5498 Rep. LeBlanc Criminal procedure; sentencing guidelines; sentencing guidelines for certain firearm violations; revise to reflect changes in substantive laws.
HB 5499 Rep. Franz Crimes; weapons; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise.
(snip)

If you would like to speak on these bills simply show up at the time/date listed above, fill out a small card that says you desire to speak on the bills, and give it to the clerk before the meeting starts. They will call you up to speak when its your turn. Dress code is not mandatory but when I have attended in the past nearly all men were wearing a suit jacket and tie, and women were wearing whatever is the women's version of that. Anyone who can make it would make a big impact on the bill. I can't make it due to my new job but I'm hoping someone can!

[TCArmory]

http://www.chooseomatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/farnsworth.jpg

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE!

Alright everyone. Summer break is over! The Senate Judicary Committee is meeting to discuss this bill:

COMMITTEE: Judiciary
DATE: Wednesday, July 18, 2012
TIME: 9:00 AM
PLACE: Room 110, Farnum Building, 125 W. Allegan Street, Lansing, MI 48933
PHONE: Lauren Michalak (373-5323) Committee Clerk
AGENDA
(snip)
HB 5225 Rep. Opsommer Weapons; firearms; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise.
HB 5498 Rep. LeBlanc Criminal procedure; sentencing guidelines; sentencing guidelines for certain firearm violations; revise to reflect changes in substantive laws.
HB 5499 Rep. Franz Crimes; weapons; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise.
(snip)

If you would like to speak on these bills simply show up at the time/date listed above, fill out a small card that says you desire to speak on the bills, and give it to the clerk before the meeting starts. They will call you up to speak when its your turn. Dress code is not mandatory but when I have attended in the past nearly all men were wearing a suit jacket and tie, and women were wearing whatever is the women's version of that. Anyone who can make it would make a big impact on the bill. I can't make it due to my new job but I'm hoping someone can!


I read "Good news everyone" in his voice. lol.

[BadBolt]

Does this change any folding rifle must be registered as a pistol bullcrap?

What is the scope of this legislation? It's a bit confusing to figure out the entire plan here. Thanks

[Roundballer]

No the bills you are thinking of are 760,761,762. They have been passed and signed into law. They will take effect sometime in the first couple of days of October.

This bill and the two tie-barred bills will totally eliminate the Puchase Permits & RI-60's, they will also require the destruction of all records within a specific time frame.

The last line of this bill says:

MCL 28.422, 28.422a, 28.429a, 28.429b, 28.429c, 28.431, 28.432, and 28.432b, are repealed

[Leader]

Does this change any folding rifle must be registered as a pistol bullcrap?

What is the scope of this legislation? It's a bit confusing to figure out the entire plan here. Thanks

Well..... Yes.
It eliminates ALL registration.

[DP425]

Does this change any folding rifle must be registered as a pistol bullcrap?

What is the scope of this legislation? It's a bit confusing to figure out the entire plan here. Thanks

Yes- on initial view, it would appear that this will eliminate the grandfather clause on the new pistol definition law as a requirement of that law is to maintain registration of the "pistol".

Of course, its something we will have to wait out and see how it ends up being interpreted.

[spartywrx]

Bump for tomorrow's meeting.

[Tallbear]

More opposition from the MSP . Also from domestic violence groups.

A vote will come next month. Contact Sen. Bieda asking him for support.

[Leader]

More opposition from the MSP . Also from domestic violence groups.

A vote will come next month. Contact Sen. Beda asking him for support.

MSP afraid they are going to loose some funding ?
All I see is less cost & freeing officers up to better serve the citizens of the state.
It works with out a problem in 45 other states.

[detroit_fan]

More opposition from the MSP . Also from domestic violence groups.

A vote will come next month. Contact Sen. Beda asking him for support.
The Senate Judicary Committee will not vote on this for a month?

[Dansjeep2000]

More opposition from the MSP . Also from domestic violence groups.

A vote will come next month. Contact Sen. Beda asking him for support.

SenSBieda@senate.michigan.gov


http://votesmart.org/candidate/biography/19835

Is this the correct guy?

[luckless]

MSP afraid they are going to loose some funding ?
All I see is less cost & freeing officers up to better serve the citizens of the state.
It works with out a problem in 45 other states.
They are not concerned about funding. They are concerned about losing power. I sat in a class given by the MSP about how one should use the letter of the law to thwart the intent of the law in regards to gun ownership, in general, and handgun ownership, in specific. The instructor repeatedly stressed the point that you can use these laws to deny purchase and ownership of guns. "If you can prevent the purchase of one gun, that is one less gun on the streets and one less gun in the hands of the bad guys."

You will never see the MSP support the Second Amendment.

[Tallbear]

SenSBieda@senate.michigan.gov


http://votesmart.org/candidate/biography/19835

Is this the correct guy?

That's him....... Same guy mentioned in post #161.
He had to leave before testimony on 5225 started.

[45/70fan]

That's him....... Same guy mentioned in post #161.
He had to leave before testimony on 5225 started.

Stonewalling, same thing happened with SB59

[Tallbear]

HB 5225 of 2011 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2011-HB-5225)
Weapons; firearms; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise. Amends secs. 2, 5a & 5d of 1927 PA 372 (MCL 28.422 et seq.) & adds sec. 12c.
Last Action: 7/17/2012 Analysis File Added

[Roundballer]

Back in June, on the 9th, I wrote to my Representative Kevin Daley. I expressed my views, and urged for his support.

He did support the bill, and it passed the House. But.....It was just today that he got around to replying to my note.

I am glad that this was not information that needed for a pressing matter.


Dear Mr. Roundballer,

Thank you for contacting my office with your concerns regarding House Bills 5225, 5498 and 5499.

This bill package was recently passed by the House of Representatives. I voted in support of this legislation. This bill package will ensure security and government protection to Michigan gun owners without the extra, unnecessary regulations. It will also save Michigan gun owners time, money and patience which is important to me.

Thank you for sending me your opinion on this legislation. Please feel free to contact my office with any other questions and concerns on any issues before the Michigan Legislature.

Most Sincerely,

Kevin Daley

State Representative
82nd District


I still haven't heard back from my Senator, but this is not in front of them yet.

[spartywrx]

NOTICE OF SCHEDULED MEETING
**PLEASE NOTE DATE, TIME AND LOCATION**

COMMITTEE: Judiciary

DATE: Wednesday, August 15, 2012

TIME: 10:00 AM

PLACE: Senate Hearing Room, Ground Floor, Boji Tower,
124 W. Allegan Street, Lansing, MI 48933

PHONE: Lauren Michalak (373-5323)
Committee Clerk

AGENDA


HB 4834 Rep. Haines Health; medical marihuana; photograph on medical marihuana card; require.

HB 4851 Rep. Cavanagh Health; medical marihuana; definition of "bona fide physician-patient relationship"; clarify.

HB 4853 Rep. McBroom Criminal procedure; sentencing guidelines; sentencing guidelines for crime of selling or providing medical marihuana to unprescribed user; implement.

HB 4856 Rep. Glardon Crimes; other; transporting medical marihuana in motor vehicle; allow under certain circumstances.

HB 5225 Rep. Opsommer Weapons; firearms; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise.

HB 5498 Rep. LeBlanc Criminal procedure; sentencing guidelines; sentencing guidelines for certain firearm violations; revise to reflect changes in substantive laws.

HB 5499 Rep. Franz Crimes; weapons; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise.

SB 1043 Sen. Nofs Civil procedure; service of process; process server fees; revise, and allow fees for certain additional services.

SB 989 Sen. Hopgood Family law; child custody; granting of custody or parenting time for parent convicted of certain sexual offenses; prohibit.

[backhandman]

sweet. What a good birthday present that will be.

[luckless]

I am not going to hold my breath. The judiciary committee has been too busy expanding the role of the government in our daily lives. It would be a 180 degree turn for them to support the will of the people rather than the will of the government. Every time I contact this committee in regards to their actions and priorities, I am told they need this or that legislation passed because local governments are asking for "tools". These "tools" only serve to expand their control and power.

We will have no true reform until we have liberty-minded senators and representatives in leadership positions. Rather than wasting our time with these lame ducks, our efforts should be towards the next two elections. Until then they will placate us with feel-good niceties that we are supposed to hail as "wins".

[sasha601]

I am not going to hold my breath. The judiciary committee has been too busy expanding the role of the government in our daily lives. It would be a 180 degree turn for them to support the will of the people rather than the will of the government. Every time I contact this committee in regards to their actions and priorities, I am told they need this or that legislation passed because local governments are asking for "tools". These "tools" only serve to expand their control and power.

We will have no true reform until we have liberty-minded senators and representatives in leadership positions. Rather than wasting our time with these lame ducks, our efforts should be towards the next two elections. Until then they will placate us with feel-good niceties that we are supposed to hail as "wins".
I agree. We have Republicans in control of every office I Michigan for almost two years. This was supposed to be ideal for restoring individual rights - 2A rights specifically. And what our fellow Republicans accomplished? Not much. Right to transport loads firearms in the vehicle without CPL, elimination of PFZ zones, right to keep firearm in the car at place of employment, elimination of pistol registration, elimination of gun boards. Where all that? We have new law that reduces length of postols which in my opinion restricts gun rights further by eliminating a usefull category of firearms we can ppssess with CPL. We have a bunch of "establishment" repubics in power. I am loosing hope.

[1911lover]

I agree. We have Republicans in control of every office I Michigan for almost two years. This was supposed to be ideal for restoring individual rights - 2A rights specifically. And what our fellow Republicans accomplished? Not much. Right to transport loads firearms in the vehicle without CPL, elimination of PFZ zones, right to keep firearm in the car at place of employment, elimination of pistol registration, elimination of gun boards. Where all that? We have new law that reduces length of postols which in my opinion restricts gun rights further by eliminating a usefull category of firearms we can ppssess with CPL. We have a bunch of "establishment" repubics in power. I am loosing hope.

Hard to disagree with this. Goes to show that "conservative" sure as hell is not synonymous with "republican", which we have known for some time, but it would be nice if these bozos would deliver the promises they made when seeking our votes.

[spartywrx]

I agree. We have Republicans in control of every office I Michigan for almost two years. This was supposed to be ideal for restoring individual rights - 2A rights specifically. And what our fellow Republicans accomplished? Not much. Right to transport loads firearms in the vehicle without CPL, elimination of PFZ zones, right to keep firearm in the car at place of employment, elimination of pistol registration, elimination of gun boards. Where all that? We have new law that reduces length of postols which in my opinion restricts gun rights further by eliminating a usefull category of firearms we can ppssess with CPL. We have a bunch of "establishment" repubics in power. I am loosing hope.

A Michigan Republican is much different than a Wyoming or Texas Republican. There is still a strong "statism" influence in our state, but it is changing slowly as the state transforms due to demographic changes.

One thing to keep in mind especially with the gun issue is that some of our Democrats are more gun friendly than some Republicans. One of the repeal registration bills tie barred to this bill is sponsored by LeBlanc who is a Democrat.

[luckless]

One thing to keep in mind especially with the gun issue is that some of our Democrats are more gun friendly than some Republicans.

Excellent point! The republicans ignore our cause at their own peril.

[Tallbear]

Passed out of committee with immediate effect.

It now goes to the senate as a whole for vote.

[MSGT]

Fantastic!

[backhandman]

This is great news. When would this be votted on?

[azsixshooter]

Nice! Keep it rolling, get this passed! Don't let up the pressure!

[rgorial]

9/11/2012 Expected in
SJ 63 REPORTED FAVORABLY WITHOUT AMENDMENT
9/11/2012 Expected in
SJ 63 COMMITTEE RECOMMENDED IMMEDIATE EFFECT
9/11/2012 Expected in
SJ 63 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

[backhandman]

Didn't these jokers just get a vacation. Lol

[Revdrshad]

9/11/2012 Expected in
SJ 63 REPORTED FAVORABLY WITHOUT AMENDMENT
9/11/2012 Expected in
SJ 63 COMMITTEE RECOMMENDED IMMEDIATE EFFECT
9/11/2012 Expected in
SJ 63 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE


Excuse my ignorance here, Are those the dates they are expected to vote on it? 9-11-12?

Thank you!!

[rgorial]

Excuse my ignorance here, Are those the dates they are expected to vote on it? 9-11-12?

Thank you!!


Apparently, they had to think too hard today...so they need a month off to recuperate...:bash:

[spartywrx]

Excuse my ignorance here, Are those the dates they are expected to vote on it? 9-11-12?

Thank you!!

9/11 is the next time they meet and the Senate journal will be updated then. They are not in session at all from tomorrow until then.

No clue on when the full vote will take place. I'll look into that and see what I can find.

[spartywrx]

Copy paste from the committee minutes (thanks to Praetorian55 on arfcom):

Senator Jones placed before the committee House Bills 5225, 5498 & 5499 (Reps. Opsommer, LeBlanc & Franz). Senator Jones announced that there was a substitute to House Bill 5499.

The following persons submitted cards, but did not testify, on House Bills 5225, 5498 & 5499: • Mary Lovik, representing the Michigan Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault Prevention and Treatment Board—Oppose • Kathy Hagiman, representing the Michigan Coalition to End Domestic and Sexual Violence—Oppose • Chris Hawkins, representing the Michigan State Police—Oppose • Isabelle Terry, citizen—Support

Senator Jones moved that House Bill 5225 be reported out of committee with the recommendation that the bill then pass. The motion prevailed by an affirmative vote of a majority of the members appointed to and serving on the committee, voting as follows: Yeas: Senators Jones, Schuitmaker, Rocca (3/4) Nays: Senator Bieda (1) Pass: none (0) Absent: none (0)

Senator Jones moved the committee recommend immediate effect. Without objection, the committee further recommended that House Bill 5225 be given immediate effect by unanimous consent.

Senator Jones moved that House Bill 5498 be reported out of committee with the recommendation that the bill then pass. The motion prevailed by an affirmative vote of a majority of the members appointed to and serving on the committee, voting as follows: Yeas: Senators Jones, Schuitmaker, Rocca, Bieda (4/4) Nays: none (0) Pass: none (0) Absent: none (0)

Senator Jones moved the committee recommend immediate effect. Without objection, the committee further recommended that House Bill 5498 be given immediate effect by unanimous consent.

Senator Jones moved to adopt the S-1 Substitute to House Bill 5499. The motion prevailed by an affirmative vote of a majority of the members appointed to and serving on the committee, voting as follows: Yeas: Senators Jones, Schuitmaker, Rocca, Bieda (4/4) Nays: none (0) Pass: none (0) Absent: none (0)

Senator Jones moved that House Bill 5499 S-1 be reported out of committee with the recommendation that the bill then pass. The motion prevailed by an affirmative vote of a majority of the members appointed to and serving on the committee, voting as follows: Yeas: Senators Jones, Schuitmaker, Rocca, Bieda (4/4) Nays: none (0) Pass: none (0) Absent: none (0)

Senator Jones moved the committee recommend immediate effect. Without objection, the committee further recommended that House Bill 5499 S-1 be given immediate effect by unanimous consent.

[Roundballer]

During this "home time" for the Senators might be a good time to hammer them with e-mails, phone calls and letters. Maybe even "button hole" them in person if they are making any appearances in their home districts.

Will there be an e-mailer set up for this phase of the operation?

[sarge5121976]

Nays: Senator Bieda (1)

Mr. Bieda will be getting a nay vote from me come
election time.

[Phelptwan]

Text released with Substitute S-1.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/billanalysis/Senate/pdf/2011-SFA-5225-F.pdf

[spartywrx]

Bam!

New program to email your senator with a quick message of support:

http://www.emailmeform.com/builder/form/6td0y3ALb8JfIaY63Mr

[GarrettJ]

Bam!

New program to email your senator with a quick message of support:

http://www.emailmeform.com/builder/form/6td0y3ALb8JfIaY63Mr
No es bueno.

Under the "Address" section, you have a blank line directly to the right of "Address*"

Then there is a "street address" line below that,
and then two side-by-side "Address Line 2" fields below that.

It is telling me I have to fill in both "Address Line 2" fields, or it won't let me continue.

eta: - thanks for putting these insta-forms together, though. We really appreciate it. :thumbup:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/GarrettJ/Misc/Book1.jpg

[brass hat]

No es bueno.

Under the "Address" section, you have a blank line directly to the right of "Address*"

Then there is a "street address" line below that,
and then two side-by-side "Address Line 2" fields below that.

It is telling me I have to fill in both "Address Line 2" fields, or it won't let me continue.

eta: - thanks for putting these insta-forms together, though. We really appreciate it. :thumbup:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/GarrettJ/Misc/Book1.jpgYeah that caught me too. I figured it out though. That line is wher you put "michigan" go back and fill in all the filds and pay close attention to what is required for each box.

[GarrettJ]

Yeah that caught me too. I figured it out though. That line is wher you put "michigan" go back and fill in all the filds and pay close attention to what is required for each box.
So what you trying to tell me? That I've got to be smarter than a web form?


:facepalm:

Just kidding - that worked.

Thanks!

[RDak]

Email sent.

Thanks Sparty!

ETA: The wife sent one also.

[.40 Cal]

Email sent to Senator Colbeck.

[spartywrx]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Let me know if you have any further problems via PM or email so I can correct them quickly. I appreciate a few dozen eyes taking a critical look at it. I'm a one man operation here!

GarretJ: You seemed to have figured it out and sent an email to your senator according to the emailer program.

Edit: One thing I forgot, we got over 300 emails sent to the Senate Judiciary Committee using this program. Just thought people would want to know that we are making some noise on this issue.

[spartywrx]

In case anyone is wondering how effective the email program has been, here's a link to where you can see how many emails have been sent so far along with to whom.

Report for Full Senate (https://www.emailmeform.com/builder/reports/W1LkmczCpB8oddjIRa7q)

127 emails sent as of this posting

[.40 Cal]

Very cool thanks for doing this. :cheers:

[gjgalligan]

Email sent, thanks for making it easy!

[spartywrx]

Bump

166 emails sent

http://emailmeform.com/builder/reports/W1LkmczCpB8oddjIRa7q

[RevDerb]

First time I've found the form hidden in the thread. Maybe it should be placed separately with no reply allowed except for the OP moving it to the top so that it can be found more easily. There are a half dozen (at least) threads dealing with these bills with multiple pages on each.

[luckless]

Sent mine, Sparty. Thanks for your initiative.

I am afraid I have lost faith in the current batch of lawmakers. With only 8 session days left and the lack of senators running for re-election, I fear the senate will spend its time growing government instead of expanding freedom. They have a poor record for the past two years and the senate has little reason to change in the next few days.

[45/70fan]

I spoke with Sen Green on Monday about the pending legislation and Sen Richardville's stonewalling. Sen Green says that the pro gun legislation, Gunboards, PFZ's and pistol registration, will be voted on this session according to Richardville. If it's not voted on then Sen Green will reintroduce the bills to the senate at the beginning of the next session and keep reintroducing until they are passed.

[G22]

Bump

166 emails sent

http://emailmeform.com/builder/reports/W1LkmczCpB8oddjIRa7q

<--- 1 of 166

[MSGT]

Sent emailto Sen. Emmons.

[Kaeto]

While I didn't use the form I did send an email to my senator but haven't gotten a response.

[Divegeek]

I too did not use the form. I wrote my rep and senator independently and in my own words. Sparty's email form is great, but I like to express myself using my own words.

[backhandman]

Email sent to John Pappageorge. email 178

[G22]

First time I've found the form hidden in the thread. Maybe it should be placed separately with no reply allowed except for the OP moving it to the top so that it can be found more easily. There are a half dozen (at least) threads dealing with these bills with multiple pages on each.

I added it to my sig line ;-)

[luckless]

They will set their agenda on Monday and there are only eight session days left until the election. For those of you that have been waiting for the right time to push this, NOW would be a good time to contact your senator. We need to let them know what their priorities should be before they make their agenda.

They spent two years adding 600 laws onto the books. They should be able to spend eight days removing a few.

[spartywrx]

First time I've found the form hidden in the thread. Maybe it should be placed separately with no reply allowed except for the OP moving it to the top so that it can be found more easily. There are a half dozen (at least) threads dealing with these bills with multiple pages on each.

EDIT:

Nuked the old thread.

New fresh thread with link here:

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=192637

[spartywrx]

I added it to my sig line ;-)
Coolness

Thanks for spreading the word. After the new legislature is sworn in our chances can only decrease at passing this bill.

[Leader]

Coolness

Thanks for spreading the word. After the new legislature is sworn in our chances can only decrease at passing this bill.

You don't think the republicans are going to gain in this election?

[Unistat76]

E-mail sent to Tupac Hunter, for all the good it will do.

[spartywrx]

You don't think the republicans are going to gain in this election?

I don't think that there is a likely chance of them increasing their majority. There are going to be a lot of Obama voters voting this November who didn't vote in the mid-term.

[backhandman]

there has been some updates.

9/11/2012 Expected in
SJ 63 REPORTED FAVORABLY WITHOUT AMENDMENT
9/11/2012 Expected in
SJ 63 COMMITTEE RECOMMENDED IMMEDIATE EFFECT
9/11/2012 Expected in
SJ 63 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

anyone with more knowledge know what is means?

[Roundballer]

there has been some updates.
That has been there since it was passed out of committee.


9/11/2012 Expected in
SJ 63 REPORTED FAVORABLY WITHOUT AMENDMENT
That means that it was passed out of committee without any ammendments, and the record of the action is expected to be placed in the Senate Journal on 9/11. It passed out of committee just as they went on another break.

9/11/2012 Expected in
SJ 63 COMMITTEE RECOMMENDED IMMEDIATE EFFECT
The IMMEDIATE EFFECT means that the bills will become law 90 days after they are signed, rather than wait until the new secession.

9/11/2012 Expected in
SJ 63 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

anyone with more knowledge know what is means?
The REFERRED TO COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE means that it has been sent to the floor of the Senate. We just need to put pressure on the individual Senators to vote it in. OH! We need to get the guy that schedules the whole mess to put it on the "agenda" to be voted on.

There are links in posts just up a few that will take you to an automated emailer. You will have to know who your Senator is, but this mailer will send your support for these bills, and urge the Senator for his/her support.

[G22]

So, if passed and signed, one would have 90 days or until Jan 1st to register a mi pistol correct?

Whichever comes first.

[Roundballer]

So, if passed and signed, one would have 90 days or until Jan 1st to register a mi pistol correct?

Whichever comes first.
No, That was a different set of bills, and that has already passed.

These bills completely do away with the registration and repeal 28.422, along with making a requirement that all of the existing registrations be destroyed. Including removal of penalties for possessing an "unregistered" pistol.

[G22]

No, That was a different set of bills, and that has already passed.

These bills completely do away with the registration and repeal 28.422, along with making a requirement that all of the existing registrations be destroyed. Including removal of penalties for possessing an "unregistered" pistol.

I'm confused then. If registration ends 90 days after this Bill is signed, and that day falls before Jan 1st, how would you register a mi pistol after the day registration ends?

It looks like if this Bill passes there will be only about 90 days left before Jan

[Roundballer]

Yes it is confusing.

You used the "mi pistol" term. The laws affecting those long-arms that we refer to as "mi pistols" because we have to register them, have passed into law. Those laws also have the "immediate effect" provision. The 90 day period for those laws hits sometime around the first of October. But, the law has a "grandfather" provision in it that allows for the "mi pistols" to still be registered until 1/1/13. Those that are registered before the cut-off can be treated as "pistols" (carried, concealed, etc) as long as they remain registered to the owner. After 1/1/13 no additional "mi pistol" will be registered, and the status of "mi pistol" can not be transferred to another. So, in other words, when those laws take full effect, it will remain an option to register a "mi pistol" until 1/1/13, but a former "mi pistol" may be purchased without a CPL or a PP.

These bills, which have not even been scheduled in the Senate for the reading, are intended to completely do away with the registration of all pistols. If they pass, you will no longer need a CPL or a PP to buy ANY pistol. You would buy a pistol just like you buy a shotgun or a .22 rifle now.

I don't think that the timing of this was planned, and there could be some issues with grandfathered "mi pistols" when the registration data base is destroyed, but in all this is a good thing.

I am keeping my hopes up, but this (5225) has not passed yet.

[edlacy]

Sure hope you guys there in Mi can get this passed.

Here in CA. things are just getting worse. Can only buy one handgun per month, it must be on the "Approved List". 10 round mags, no ARs with"Evil Features" without Bullet Button.
And starting 1/1/14, all firearms purchased after that date are to be registered.
There is also no PPT without going through an FFL.
Lot of people think that as Ca goes, so goes the country. Well, you and a lot of other states are going just the opposite, and making it easier to buy,sell and carry.
Good for ya, wish we could say the same here.
Ed

[Tallbear]

HB 5225 of 2011 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2011-HB-5225)
Weapons; firearms; certain procedures for purchase and possession of pistols; revise. Amends secs. 2, 5a & 5d of 1927 PA 372 (MCL 28.422 et seq.) & adds sec. 12c.
Last Action: 9/11/2012 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

[Jared1981]

People need to call the senate leadership and the governors office to let them know that you want action taken on HB 5225 and companion bills.

If enough people make the phone calls, this could improve the odds of this passing.

Senator Richardville 517-373-3543

Gov Snyder 517-373-3400

Even if Richardville isn't your senator, he controls the senate so it's appropriate to call his office and let his staff know that you want HB 5225 to be voted on ASAP along with the companion bills.

[azsixshooter]

I called Richardville and my representative, Senator Hune, both to inquire about a possible date for a vote and to encourage their support on this set of bills.

I also called the following Senators to express my thanks for moving the bill through the Senate Judiciary Committee and for voting in support of it when it was there:

Senator Rick Jones (R- 24), Chairman
(517) 373-3447

Senator Tonya Schuitmaker (R-20), Vice Chairman
(517) 373-0793

Senator Tory Rocca (R-10)
(517) 373-7315

Senator Hune's office confirmed that Senator Hune pretty much supports any legislation that expands 2nd Amendment rights and that he is in support of HB5225. They also suggested I call Paul Opsommer's office to see if they had any current info, which I did and left a voice mail. If any one else wants to contact Representative Opsommer (the bill's sponsor) his number is (517) 373-1778.

We REALLY need to sack up and work hard to get this set of bills passed!

[Smokepole]

Snyder Stalling Gun Rights Bill?


This alert from the NRA says that Governor Rick Snyder is stalling the bill to repeal handgun registration in Michigan. The bill passed the state house 74-36 in June.

This bill is long past due.

Only six states require any form of gun registration. Michigan, California, Hawaii, and New York register handguns, and New Jersey and Connecticut register "assault weapons". The other five are all considerably more liberal than Michigan.

http://www.rightmichigan.com/story/2012/9/22/04342/3329

[RDak]

Snyder Stalling Gun Rights Bill?


http://www.rightmichigan.com/story/2012/9/22/04342/3329

Email sent to Snyder.