Muzzle up reload, safety hazard?? your views.

[will.s]

I was shooting IDPA at a local conservation club, same place were I took hunters safety years ago. During the match, the RO called muzzle during a reload, I was thinking WHAT???? I'm super safe, and have taken enough classes to know what end the pills come out. After the course of fire they let me know they didn't want my gun pointed in that direction at all. I didn't get all butt hurt about it, but a contested. They teach muzzle up as safe carry at that hunters safety class that they tought. At the same shoot, another guy did a revolver reload, by hitting the ejection rod with the muzzle straight up in there, in my opinion that's no different then a slide lock reload in an auto. And no, they didn't call him on it.

Long story short, I will continue to do the reloads the way I do them. Just wondering what the consensus is here on MGO? Muzzle up reloads or no?

[forrest0872]

One of the reasons that IDPA, can produce bad habbits............

you know that you are doing it right, just one of those things IDPA is a game, games have rules, and the rules are there for the lowest common denominator, (new shooters) - and yes I disagree, but , their game - their rules..............

Brad -

[RevDerb]

I was shooting IDPA at a local conservation club, same place were I took hunters safety years ago. During the match, the RO called muzzle during a reload, I was thinking WHAT???? I'm super safe, and have taken enough classes to know what end the pills come out. After the course of fire they let me know they didn't want my gun pointed in that direction at all. I didn't get all butt hurt about it, but a contested. They teach muzzle up as safe carry at that hunters safety class that they tought. At the same shoot, another guy did a revolver reload, by hitting the ejection rod with the muzzle straight up in there, in my opinion that's no different then a slide lock reload in an auto. And no, they didn't call him on it.

Long story short, I will continue to do the reloads the way I do them. Just wondering what the consensus is here on MGO? Muzzle up reloads or no?
Is there a word missing here or is "muzzle" a code for something else in IDPA?

[MichiganShootist]

I believe the safety officer made the right call... and blew it on the wheelgunner. I watched one of the country's best revolver shooters get disqualified for just what the OP saw at a major regional event in PA.

I have shot in MANY hundreds of IDPA and USPSA matches and the muzzle should never be pointed in the air because that is over the berm. In the case of many Michigan clubs (Especially in the metro areas) any bullet leaving the range has the opportunity to do serious harm..... and very few have a baffle system overhead.

Secondly----From a speed stand point (and tactically) the OP is taking much more time to reload than it would take to keep the pistol in the shooting "Window" pointed down range during the reload. There is no advantage to doing anything in the reload other than rotating the gun to the side so that the fresh mag can be seated. If you have to point your gun in the air to make the mag. drop you need a new gun or new mag.

Lastly I've won a ton of IDPA matches shooting a revolver and the gun stayed in my right hand in the shooting position while I reloaded with my left hand. That way the gun is still in the shooting window during the reload. If you go to any major match you will see that the vast majority of top revolver shooters now reload that way.

[will.s]

Michigan shootest, I agree with your standpoint on consistancy on the ruleing, If they call one person for it, call em all. And I guess that's my biggest problem with the shooting community as a whole is consistancy. I understand that everything isn't black and white, but. When one is tought at the most basic level, "hunters safety", that something is ok, Then when you go above that basic level of safety and knowledge into more advanced levels, it's not ok anymore.

Not to debate tactics, but I can think of a couple of things off the top of my head that make a muzzle up reload more effeicent and practical. But on the other side, we want no rounds going over the berm, but shouldn't your finger be off the trigger anyway?? Not that I am a huge follower of IDPA you see folks at the IDPA world Championship reloading muzzle up.

Like in my basement with the ceiling being so low, I can't do muzzle up reloads with a rifle. So I practice both because, there isn't one proven method for every situation. But, I prefer one over the other. There are many schools of thought out there on muzzle up VS at the berm. And just as many instuctors that teach one or both.

I guess that brings me to another monster. (EXAMPLE) If I am concealed carrying, and I'm on the 2nd story of a structure, I guess that could be a safety issue because it's not really pointed in a safe direction if there's people below me. And so many other like situation. Were does the line start and stop?

Brad, thanks for the comment. I agree that some games, or most games tribute to bad habits.

RevDerb, "MUZZLE", in most shooting competition means your muzzle/end of the barrel in an unsafe direction. I guess after writeing all this, some would wish i would put a muzzle on my mouth. LOL, only being funny.

[RECON762WT]

Its dumb...muzzle goes up into your work space.

Your finger being straight and off the trigger is what prevents a round from being fired. Until that is mastered it doesnt matter which direction is considered safe.

[MichiganShootist]

You say that you see people in the big matches reloading muzzle up. I would have to disagree. I have participated in probably more than 100 sanctioned IDPA events including 2 national championships and what you say is not the case. Point your gun in the air and you go home. USPSA is a little more lax on that rule..... but it's still in the book and is clearly enforced at major matches like state and area championships.

You are mixing hunter's safety rules with IDPA competition and tactical procedures. Obviously in the woods there is no berm... nor are you generally close to housing and don't have dozens of other people close by.

Yes your finger should off the trigger..... but as they say S/;t happens. Years ago at a match I tripped carrying a prop in my left hand and fell into a barricade and damn near dropped my gun. My finger went down on the trigger and the gun went off. I was immediately disqualified and sent packing...... even though it was still pointed down range.

I have seen more than one shooter have an accidental discharge while reloading because the inerta of the slide moving forward caused their finger to fall onto the trigger. If your muzzle is up that's another loose round headed off the range.

On the speed issue I don't see how taking your gun out of the "shooting window" and pointing it in the sky.... reloading... then returning to the shooting position can be faster than just a twist of the wrist.
But what do I know ----LOL --- you should visit my trophy room.

[will.s]

2011 IDPA World Championship
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZSEs7lBnw&feature=related

Muzzle up reloads
@ 2:55
@ 3:11
@ 3:19
@ 4:13

2008 georgia state IDPA Championship
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddRVQb3GJ4A

Muzzle up reloads
@ 1:07
@ 1:45 Debatable
@ 3:15
@ 4:01
@6: 54

Nope, I guess what I say is not the case.

IDPA has very little to do with "tactical procedures" its a game. Peeling right or left with a group, muzzle up is the only way to do a reload, and in many other typical "tacical procedures". As far as you falling and having an ND or anyone else, it's poor trigger finger placement. That's the reason I use the bent C trigger finger placement. A better arguement would be a slamfire.

I never said anything about speed, It's about bringing the gun into your workspace as others have said. Shooting window??? Your shooting window should be 360 degrees.

People don't go birdhunting in groups??? Thats what I was talking about being inconsistant with training/firearms safety. And firearm's safety, no matter were you are, should be the same. range, hunting, competition, "tactical procedures". All the safety rules should be the same.

After saying that, I don't doubt you have tropheys, thats good. We can doubt each other all we want. I didn't mean this to be a d*** measureing contest.

Recon, I agree.

[wurm]

IPDA allows each individual club to designate muzzle safe points. I have seen some clubs designate the top of a berm as a safe point but I don't see it too often in SE Michigan. I've shot a few sanctioned matches and have never heard muzzle called on my reloads, though I do have the muzzle angled up. Only when I shoot indoors at one club do I usually hear the muzzle can't point up during a reload.

USPSA was mentioned above and they do allow for the muzzle to point upwards, just not rearwards. The exact wording is:

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle
of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from
the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop,
allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or
not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

Further, a club may not impose additional rules per 3.3:

3.3 Applicability of Rules:
USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express consent of the President of USPSA.

A club can petition USPSA for an exception but as far as I've read no club has been granted an exception for this reason.

In the end, you have to realize that IDPA is a game and not training. As a game there are rules and some clubs may have a muzzle safe point that goes against how you may do things. Keep that in mind when you decide to shoot somewhere.

[RECON762WT]

On the speed issue I don't see how taking your gun out of the "shooting window" and pointing it in the sky.... reloading... then returning to the shooting position can be faster than just a twist of the wrist.
But what do I know ----LOL --- you should visit my trophy room.
These guys must be doing something wrong...
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/recon762wt/Gun%20Pics%20I/Michael_Voigt_Pistol_Reload_3Gun_2002.jpghttp://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/recon762wt/Gun%20Pics%20I/speed_reload_tips_from_swat_magazine-203x114.jpghttp://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/recon762wt/Gun%20Pics%20I/Todd2-7-1.jpghttp://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/recon762wt/Gun%20Pics%20I/USAMU4-5.gif

[mini4m3]

Its dumb...muzzle goes up into your work space.

Your finger being straight and off the trigger is what prevents a round from being fired. Until that is mastered it doesnt matter which direction is considered safe.

+1

How do you reload in a tight space or behind close cover?

This seems like one of those rules, as Brad said earlier, that are made for the LCD.

"We know YOU wont do this, but someone will so we have to regulate based on that."

[KeithD]

I have seen more than one shooter have an accidental discharge while reloading because the inerta of the slide moving forward caused their finger to fall onto the trigger. If your muzzle is up that's another loose round headed off the range.

On the speed issue I don't see how taking your gun out of the "shooting window" and pointing it in the sky.... reloading... then returning to the shooting position can be faster than just a twist of the wrist.
But what do I know ----LOL --- you should visit my trophy room.

when your gaming it and not using real world tactics... yeah i guess it wouldnt make much sense.

thats exactly why I laugh at instructors that advertise 'long time IDPA,IPSC, or what ever shooter."

and i call BS on slide enertia causing a finger to slip into a trigger gaurd and pulla 3-5 lbs trigger.

trophy room to prove what? that your good at winning a game? I kick azz at scrabble...how does that equate to the real world? about as much. Standing in a window or a door way with your muzzle and hand past the barrier, reloading is just one thing that this game does that can get you killed in the real world. Shoot, run dry, move behind cover, reload, re engage.

Dont mistake what you do in a game to try to win a lowest time for real world applications.

[RevDerb]

RevDerb, "MUZZLE", in most shooting competition means your muzzle/end of the barrel in an unsafe direction. I guess after writeing all this, some would wish i would put a muzzle on my mouth. LOL, only being funny.
OK, Thanks, So the RO code for telling someone that the muzzle is not pointed in what is considered a safe direction is simply "muzzle", not "muzzle up" or some other word of caution?

As you can tell, I'm not involved in organized competition so I'm not familiar with how many things are done in the city but I keep trying to learn and not everything comes by simple osmosis. I have to ask questions rather than just pass over something that I don't understand and remain ignorant.

[will.s]

OK, Thanks, So the RO code for telling someone that the muzzle is not pointed in what is considered a safe direction is simply "muzzle", not "muzzle up" or some other word of caution?

As you can tell, I'm not involved in organized competition so I'm not familiar with how many things are done in the city but I keep trying to learn and not everything comes by simple osmosis. I have to ask questions rather than just pass over something that I don't understand and remain ignorant.

No ********ery intended at all. Useally they just say muzzle.

KethD, I agree totally.

Mini, It sucks it's gotta be that way. But so many things in life are. I just hate the inconsistancy as said before. It's ok here but, not here unless, it's sunday and you wear a green hat.

I guess I'll just have to shoot more ACTS. I would like to give USPSA a try seems like more real world rules, Except there arn't any rules in a gun fight.

A games a game and training is training.

[durus5995]

I was shooting IDPA at a local conservation club, same place were I took hunters safety years ago. During the match, the RO called muzzle during a reload, I was thinking WHAT???? I'm super safe, and have taken enough classes to know what end the pills come out. After the course of fire they let me know they didn't want my gun pointed in that direction at all. I didn't get all butt hurt about it, but a contested. They teach muzzle up as safe carry at that hunters safety class that they tought. At the same shoot, another guy did a revolver reload, by hitting the ejection rod with the muzzle straight up in there, in my opinion that's no different then a slide lock reload in an auto. And no, they didn't call him on it.

Long story short, I will continue to do the reloads the way I do them. Just wondering what the consensus is here on MGO? Muzzle up reloads or no?

I feel your pain. I got the same reaction from my local club IDPA "experts" and I did get a little butt hurt with the way I was treated and the situation was handled.

From what I have seen ACTS is one of the only shooting competitions that lets you use real world practical tactics.

[KeithD]

I feel your pain. I got the same reaction from my local club IDPA "experts" and I did get a little butt hurt with the way I was treated and the situation was handled.

From what I have seen ACTS is one of the only shooting competitions that lets you use real world practical tactics.

Dont get me wrong, ACTS is still a game. And there are a few rules that I dont necessarily agree with. But what drew me to ACTS was the shooter has a lot of discretion on how to handle the stage. As long as they are being safe, its pretty much up to them on how to proceed.

Most of the time there is little to no, " stand here, shot those, run here, stand there" ect.

I love the stages with multiple cover points and targets. where the description is, " you start here...deal with it." Let me decide how I want to solve my problem.

Love seeing the 3 gunners start smoking when the stage description doesn't tell them what to do and when to do it. and dont even get them started on a blind stage! OMG we cant see everything first??? hahahaha


Oh and MichiganShootist, I would love to have you come out and try our match out, hey one more trophy in the case bud! And i'll even pay your first match fee!

[Donzie]

I feel your pain. I got the same reaction from my local club IDPA "experts" and I did get a little butt hurt with the way I was treated and the situation was handled.

From what I have seen ACTS is one of the only shooting competitions that lets you use real world practical tactics.
Why is it the IDPA multi-gun has you carry your long guns muzzle up?
I had this conversation with a friend of yours at a IDPA shoot Sunday.
I prefer the muzzle kept within 180 of the line, if a shooter puts one over the berm or within 6' of their toes, it's a DQ. If they train or practice another technique, then those rules become counter productive and the game has lost it's purpose.
Just my opinion.

[Donzie]

A games a game and training is training.
+1

[dhrith]

Damn near everyone one of those guys reloaded SO low that they completely lost situational awareness of their down range targets actions. But then again, they don't really care do they since it's just a piece of cardboard. How well do you think that'll work in combat not knowing what the bad guys in front of your are doing at any given moment? Think that might just bite you in the ass at some point? Did he dodge left? right? drop behind cover? Leave the gaming in the games. As much as I love competition this is the primary reason I don't get involved with these shenanigans.

Ref: first video watched about half way through.

[Tom Fineis]

All muzzle positions have their place in the real world.

IDPA is catering to the LCD because they have to. Their game, their rules.

It is what it is.

[RSF]

These guys must be doing something wrong...
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/recon762wt/Gun%20Pics%20I/Michael_Voigt_Pistol_Reload_3Gun_2002.jpghttp://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/recon762wt/Gun%20Pics%20I/speed_reload_tips_from_swat_magazine-203x114.jpghttp://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/recon762wt/Gun%20Pics%20I/Todd2-7-1.jpghttp://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/recon762wt/Gun%20Pics%20I/USAMU4-5.gif


What no picture of me...... loo

Anyhow the reload extension is sheer stupidity for many reasons.glad you. Got throphies

In real life guess what people will be moving around you in chaos of gunfire good chance of losing a gun that way in the scramble. Or the possiblity. Of good guys around youor moving in front of you.

Some genius inst. Had there officers low ready loading guess were there guns were pointed in there backs and legs situation dictates the techniques.

As for the nd ******** on slide inerta

[durus5995]

Why is it the IDPA multi-gun has you carry your long guns muzzle up?
I had this conversation with a friend of yours at a IDPA shoot Sunday.
I prefer the muzzle kept within 180 of the line, if a shooter puts one over the berm or within 6' of their toes, it's a DQ. If they train or practice another technique, then those rules become counter productive and the game has lost it's purpose.
Just my opinion.

Was it Ben or Ryan? Those two are good people although little miss informed on some stuff. They are the reasons I used go to the multi gun practices before my work schedule got weird.

Back on topic, I can see where the ban on muzzle up comes from because the club I belong to had built a rifle range and two locals snuck and and put a round over the berm and it hit some ones house and we were liable. The rifle range got shut down and it went to the Michigan Supreme court where the case was not heard. So now we have this awesome range that just rots. But, as Tom said its for the LCD.

This topic reminds me of a great link that was shared on the Raven Concealment Facebook page about super safety people.
http://4to1consulting.blogspot.com/2012/01/fire-your-safety-officer-and-hire.html

What no picture of me...... loo


Would a video clip make you happy?

xHjbo5in_V0

[Quantum007]

One of the reasons that IDPA, can produce bad habbits............

you know that you are doing it right, just one of those things IDPA is a game, games have rules, and the rules are there for the lowest common denominator, (new shooters) - and yes I disagree, but , their game - their rules..............

Brad -

Well Put!!!

[RSF]

Was it Ben or Ryan? Those two are good people although little miss informed on some stuff. They are the reasons I used go to the multi gun practices before my work schedule got weird.

Back on topic, I can see where the ban on muzzle up comes from because the club I belong to had built a rifle range and two locals snuck and and put a round over the berm and it hit some ones house and we were liable. The rifle range got shut down and it went to the Michigan Supreme court where the case was not heard. So now we have this awesome range that just rots. But, as Tom said its for the LCD.

This topic reminds me of a great link that was shared on the Raven Concealment Facebook page about super safety people.
http://4to1consulting.blogspot.com/2012/01/fire-your-safety-officer-and-hire.html


Would a video clip make you happy?

xHjbo5in_V0


that was a great stage.... i was set up

[KeithD]

you suck

[Donzie]

Was it Ben or Ryan? Those two are good people although little miss informed on some stuff. They are the reasons I used go to the multi gun practices before my work schedule
No, it was Ron. I've shot with Brian and Russ a couple of times though. Both great guys.
Ron has been helping out at the club with IDPA and the multi-gun.

[will.s]

Was it Ben or Ryan? Those two are good people although little miss informed on some stuff. They are the reasons I used go to the multi gun practices before my work schedule got weird.

Back on topic, I can see where the ban on muzzle up comes from because the club I belong to had built a rifle range and two locals snuck and and put a round over the berm and it hit some ones house and we were liable. The rifle range got shut down and it went to the Michigan Supreme court where the case was not heard. So now we have this awesome range that just rots. But, as Tom said its for the LCD.

This topic reminds me of a great link that was shared on the Raven Concealment Facebook page about super safety people.
http://4to1consulting.blogspot.com/2012/01/fire-your-safety-officer-and-hire.html


Would a video clip make you happy?

xHjbo5in_V0

funny thing to me is, I'm the guy leaning against the table.