Huntin' with a Sharps

[Kaeto]

I'm hoping somebody here can answer my question. I've tried looking on the DNR website and can't find the answer. Is it legal to hunt with a Sharps 1863 paper cutter during muzzle loading season?

[45 acp]

No you can not because it does not load from the muzzle

[fr3db3ar]

No you can not because it does not load from the muzzle

I would have to concur with that.

[Kaeto]

What rule says that?

[ChaneyD]

The muzzle loading rule. If it doesn't load from the muzzle it isn't a muzzle loader. Easy to understand as that.

[therev]

Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a crossbow (except in the Upper Peninsula) or a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black powder handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute. Only certified disabled hunters may use a crossbow or a modified bow during the muzzleloading season in the Upper Peninsula

[Groo]

seam like maybe you could, if you loaded it from the muzzle, like a traditional muzzle loader

I could load my CVA muzzle loader from the breach by removing the breach plug if I so desired.

[fr3db3ar]

seam like maybe you could, if you loaded it from the muzzle, like a traditional muzzle loader

I could load my CVA muzzle loader from the breach by removing the breach plug if I so desired.

But the sharps is not intended to be loaded from the muzzle. That will be the difference in the law's eye.

[Roundballer]

I believe that in the eyes of the law, if the firearm will accept a fixed cartridge loaded from the breach, that makes it NOT a muzzle loader.


Look up a "Ferguson flintlock breech loading rifle", that would still be considered a "Muzzle Loader".

[Kaeto]

So would the paper cartridge count as fixed?

[Roundballer]

So would the paper cartridge count as fixed?
Ya know, I think that you have a point there. The nitrated paper cartridge contains no primer. If we are talking about the same rifle that I am thinking, it just might also be considered a muzzle loader for the definitions of Michigan hunting.

This is an interesting concept, it deserves more research.

[Kaeto]

The reason I'm asking is my Sharps military carbine in .54 is a lot handier in brush than my TC Renegade in .54 or my TC Hawken in .50 .

[Groo]

I bet if a DNR officer were to call you on it and a bunch of loose powder dribbled out when you opened it up, they let you go.

[Kaeto]

Wish we had a DNR agent here to ask.

[Made_in_Michigan]

Wish we had a DNR agent here to ask.

A Leo, DNR or otherwise, is the LAST person I would ask for advice, information, or opinion on the law.

[fr3db3ar]

Wish we had a DNR agent here to ask.

You do......email the head of the DNR. they WILL have somebody answer you.

[Browning Guy]

Just off the top of my head I seem to remember the original Sharps patent was as a breechloaing weapon. It was advertised as a breech loader and superior to the muzzleloaders of the days. There is no ramrod or provision for loading from the muzzle. You state yourself that it is cartridge loaded, true it is paper not brass but it loads in the breech and cuts the end off. Based on that I would ask How would you consider it a muzzleloader. A blackpowder weapon yes but not a muzzle loader.

[Kaeto]

But in the hunting regulations there is no definition of a muzzle loader. Also you may hunt with a cap and ball revolver and they are not loaded from the muzzle.

[Browning Guy]

I hunting with a muzzleloader during firearms season before they had a seperate ML season. When it started I wondered about the cap and ball revolver also. When I asked about it the DNR office I went to said that since it loaded from the front (muzzle) of the cylinder and uses a rammer it was allowed. At least that how it was explained to me.

[Groo]

I hunting with a muzzleloader during firearms season before they had a seperate ML season. When it started I wondered about the cap and ball revolver also. When I asked about it the DNR office I went to said that since it loaded from the front (muzzle) of the cylinder and uses a rammer it was allowed. At least that how it was explained to me.
cap and ball revolver hand guns are specifically mentioned as being legal for muzzle loading season. I'm not sure if you can use carbine revolvers though. I think rifles have to be single shot.

the Sharps in question could be easily loaded from the muzzle. It has the option of being loaded from either end, similar to many modern in-line muzzle loaders. Breach-loaders are nothing "new". Davinci's tank design utilized breach loading cannons. I've never read anything to preclude the Sharps in question from being used for ML season. Load it from the muzzle and it meats every state level muzzle loading definition I've ever seen.

[Roundballer]

cap and ball revolver hand guns are specifically mentioned as being legal for muzzle loading season. I'm not sure if you can use carbine revolvers though. I think rifles have to be single shot.

<snip>
CITE?

I have to call this one. the words "CAP", "BALL", and "REVOLVER" are not mentioned together in MCL anywhere. As a matter of fact, the one place that "BLACK POWDER" is combined with "HANDGUN" doesn't even limit it to anything other than "Black Powder". So, an argument can be made that a cartridge handgun could be used, as long as it was loaded with "black powder".

MCL 324.43516 (http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-324-43516)

I do agree with everything else...what I snipped out of the quote. I do believe that double rifles and shotguns of the "muzzle loading" variety are also good to go. There is no mention of them in MCL either, and I know a couple of guys that use Kodiak double rifles, and have for years.

[Groo]

CITE?

I have to call this one. the words "CAP", "BALL", and "REVOLVER" are not mentioned together in MCL anywhere. As a matter of fact, the one place that "BLACK POWDER" is combined with "HANDGUN" doesn't even limit it to anything other than "Black Powder". So, an argument can be made that a cartridge handgun could be used, as long as it was loaded with "black powder".

MCL 324.43516 (http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-324-43516)

I do agree with everything else...what I snipped out of the quote. I do believe that double rifles and shotguns of the "muzzle loading" variety are also good to go. There is no mention of them in MCL either, and I know a couple of guys that use Kodiak double rifles, and have for years.

The the 2011 hunting manual by the DNR specifically says Muzzle loading Rifle or Shotgun, but when referencing the permitted handguns, It doesn't call them muzzle loaders, it just says black powder or acceptable substitute.

maybe it was during previous years read through that it mentioned Cap and Ball

[fr3db3ar]

CITE?

I have to call this one. the words "CAP", "BALL", and "REVOLVER" are not mentioned together in MCL anywhere. As a matter of fact, the one place that "BLACK POWDER" is combined with "HANDGUN" doesn't even limit it to anything other than "Black Powder". So, an argument can be made that a cartridge handgun could be used, as long as it was loaded with "black powder".

MCL 324.43516 (http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-324-43516)

I do agree with everything else...what I snipped out of the quote. I do believe that double rifles and shotguns of the "muzzle loading" variety are also good to go. There is no mention of them in MCL either, and I know a couple of guys that use Kodiak double rifles, and have for years.

Absolutely, you could use a "Kirst"?? conversion and have black powder cartridges.