Hunter's Safety Issue: Carrying a Loaded Side Arm when Hunting Out West at Elk Camp.

[willforu1]

I picked up a .44 Magnum revolver to carry as a side arm when hunting at my Elk club in Colorado. I plan to carry it in a drop leg holster in addition to my rifle.

There are 20 hunters hunting in 5 jeeps. We have a rule that you are not allowed to have a chambered round in your rifle when riding in a jeep. We ride back and forth from hunting location to hunting location with empty chambers. We load our magazine but we have to keep our chambers empty. Prior to getting in the jeep we have to “click-off.” We do this by pointing our rifle in a safe direction, pointed down, and by pulling the trigger to demonstrate our chambers are indeed empty. I have no problem with this part of the policy. It is a good rule.

I asked about our safety policy for carrying a side arm. The leader of the club is a great hunter but not a hand gun guy. He said that the club has recently cracked down on guys carrying a side arm. He told me that the same policy would apply to hand guns. If you carry a hand gun, each time you get in the jeep you will 1st, have to clear your chamber of your rifle and click off and then 2nd, unholster your revolver and clear your chamber and click off with the pistol as well.

I think that this is unnecessary with a holstered weapon. Holstered weapons do not accidentally discharge. I think that there is too much unnecessary handling of the firearms which could lead to an unsafe situation.

In our Elk club side arms have been carried as a back-up for years. They are used to drive elk out of gullies and on rare occasion to finish off a wounded animal. They are also nice to have as protection after we tag out. I have walked through some desolate canyons driving elk or tracking a wounded elk while not carrying a rifle. Also, hunters like to carry them.

What is your opinion? Is this a good policy? I have shot handguns with a group every Friday and we maintain a “hot range.” We make the range “cold” at the end of the evening and we are only allowed to draw our weapons on command on the firing line. At the same gun club, we are allowed to carry a loaded side arm as we participate on the rifle range. As A CPL holder I carry a loaded weapon often. Do not policemen drive around with loaded weapons holstered all the time? Do they have problems with an occasional accidental discharge with holstered weapons when driving around on patrol?

[DP425]

None of it is really necessary safety wise if the firearms are in good, safe working order and the users are not retards. Granted, it's not a direct comparison as Mil and LE carry weapons for a living, but I've never seen anyone personally ND, and i've only heard of someone doing it in a vehicle once... and of course, it was the user's fault, M4.

First time I've heard of a pistol firing IN the holster was the officer in detroit with the girl "dancing" with him. I have heard of ND's while drawing or re-holstering; almost always an ND (negligent), not an AD (accidental) Leather, Krydex and heavy formed nylon holsters do a very good job of protecting the trigger... and unless you have a gun you shouldn't be using (unsafe), it isn't going to fire without the trigger being pulled. Of course be mindful of different gun's requirements for safe carry (example old colt SAA's, hammer down empty chamber).

Now, having said that... being fairly experienced in the army where everything is done at the least common denominator... If one or two of those 20 are sub-standard with attention to detail and weapons safety, it is understandable that all must be held to the same over-the-top safety standards. You can't expect everyone to be happy when you're calling out people by requiring them to unload and not others. Having met a lot of different hunters and guys at the range, I can very well understand the policy... seems like any more poor firearms safety is the default assumption, and a lot of them either blow you off, or correct themselves once than go right back into the same unsafe habits.

So all of that rambling, the point is- Assuming a high level of attention to detail, responsibility and safe gun handling habits, unloading before getting into the vehicle is unnecessary. But if some are more along the lines of what I'm seeing these days to be "typical" gun owners and hunters... I wouldn't even walk through the bush infront of them loaded, let alone have loaded weapons in a vehicle cross country.

[Cackler]

I picked up a .44 Magnum revolver to carry as a side arm when hunting at my Elk club in Colorado. I plan to carry it in a drop leg holster in addition to my rifle.

There are 20 hunters hunting in 5 jeeps. We have a rule that you are not allowed to have a chambered round in your rifle when riding in a jeep. We ride back and forth from hunting location to hunting location with empty chambers. We load our magazine but we have to keep our chambers empty. Prior to getting in the jeep we have to “click-off.” We do this by pointing our rifle in a safe direction, pointed down, and by pulling the trigger to demonstrate our chambers are indeed empty. I have no problem with this part of the policy. It is a good rule.

I asked about our safety policy for carrying a side arm. The leader of the club is a great hunter but not a hand gun guy. He said that the club has recently cracked down on guys carrying a side arm. He told me that the same policy would apply to hand guns. If you carry a hand gun, each time you get in the jeep you will 1st, have to clear your chamber of your rifle and click off and then 2nd, unholster your revolver and clear your chamber and click off with the pistol as well.



It sounds like your leader needs an education on how a revolver works. It is one thing to carry an old single action on an empty chamber but, anybody with any sense knows that when you "click off" as you put it, you are essentially chambering another round.

Sure, I suppose you could carry four in the wheelie instead of six but, is he going to demand that you "click off" once for every tube in the cylinder?

[tote'ngranny]

I think you should carry one of those *assault guns* .. you know, like a Glock and chambered.

[willforu1]

Thanks Cackler and DP 425. Thanks for the thoughtful comments.

How about drop leg holsters? Are they any less safe than a OWB? Lots of hunters at the club like to carry in a cowboy gunbelt like the old west. Are there any options that are more safe or less safe than any other that you can think of? For example, at my gun club we are not allowed to use a cross draw holster for out shoots.

[DP425]

Thanks Cackler and DP 425. Thanks for the thoughtful comments.

How about drop leg holsters? Are they any less safe than a OWB? Lots of hunters at the club like to carry in a cowboy gunbelt like the old west. Are there any options that are more safe or less safe than any other that you can think of? For example, at my gun club we are not allowed to use a cross draw holster for out shoots.


Just opinion, but any holster that has some rigid sides to protect the trigger should be safe enough. I'm not sure if I'd be into cross-draw; reason being, I've seen youtube videos, and heard reports of people accidentally pulling the trigger upon drawing. Some blame the holster, some take the blame... the thing that would worry me is someone doing this in a cross draw could send the round in a dangerous direction. Standard strong side draw may be marginally safer for this reason. I also don't like being swept, cross draw has a tendency to do that.

I personally use a tactical tailor drop leg holster that I've had since 04; it is made for large auto's with external hammers, has a button retention strap across the hammer. I use it hunting and on deployments; that's about it. Hunting as a result of the layers of clothing otherwise being a hinderance to belt side. Deployment because gear/armor gets in the way of belt side and I need the space on my vest. In the long run, holster selection shouldn't be based on what someone else thinks you should use... as long as it is safe and you are comfortable with it. There is no reason not to run a more modern style holster if you'd like... I can however think of a few reasons not to wear a "cowboy style" holster (poor retention, floppy)

Now, all of that being said, I'm not a revolver guy, so I don't look for them... but, I don't recall ever seeing large frame drop leg holsters for revolvers. I'm sure they are out there, you just might have to look.


Oh, one more thing- some may object to a drop leg holster because when seated it has the firearm pointed forward, possibly in someone's direction. If your firearm is safe, carried safely, in a hard side holster with retention, this isn't a legitimate worry. Most everyone I've deployed with use drop leg holsters and I've never seen an AD/ND.

[willforu1]

Oh, one more thing- some may object to a drop leg holster because when seated it has the firearm pointed forward, possibly in someone's direction. If your firearm is safe, carried safely, in a hard side holster with retention, this isn't a legitimate worry. Most everyone I've deployed with use drop leg holsters and I've never seen an AD/ND.

I also have a Glock 20 and I may carry that instead.

But your point is well taken about the direction of the muzzle in a drop leg. I usually sit in the rear seat of the jeep

[10x25mm]

When I have encountered 'Nervous Nellies' like your club leader, I just take an empty speedloader into the field with me. I just open the crane and upend the cartridges in my Model 29 into the speedloader. Open the retention teeth before you do this and then close them after the cartridges fall in. Then I reload the pistol conventionally when I exit the vehicle.

This keeps the 'Nervous Nellies' happy and avoids hunting camp friction.

[derrabe]

Just my 2 cents but in my personal experience a holstered weapon can still fire. In another thread I had a holster weapon AD on me by falling about a foot on to its hammer. I have no comment about who is in the right here just wanted to comment on the holstered weapons wont fire comment you made.

[DP425]

Just my 2 cents but in my personal experience a holstered weapon can still fire. In another thread I had a holster weapon AD on me by falling about a foot on to its hammer. I have no comment about who is in the right here just wanted to comment on the holstered weapons wont fire comment you made.


That sounds to me like a failure of the hammer block safety, firing pin block or half-cock sear / mechanism... unless it didn't have one, in which case I would argue it's not really safe to carry with one in the chamber. Ultimately, if it was the failure of one of the safety features I mentioned, I'd have very likely brought a lawsuit against the manufacture- people have been killed from such things happening before those safeties became mainstream; that is the whole reason they came into existence, so if they can't protect from that, it is a design failure resulting in an unsafe firearm. Now I do not believe pistols originally lacking those design safeties are unsafe- the user should be well enough versed to know how to properly carry such firearm (hammer down on empty chamber). But when one expects the pistol to be protected from such an incidence, there by carrying it in what they assume to be a safe mannor... and it is still able to fire, the pistol is unsafe by virtue of advertised safety features not doing their job.

So, long story short- it sounds like your story is either a case of improperly carrying a loaded pistol (I'm going to assume this isn't the case), or a failure of a safety feature.

I'd like to know if you took any action on this- call the manufacturer or had the firearm repaired? Took a settlement? Replacement / repair pistol? Refund?

[westcliffe01]

This was a revolver with the hammer down on a live round ? I think most older pistols would have something similar happen if dropped with a round in the chamber and the hammer down, because there is nothing that blocks the firing pin or the hammer. If the hammer was cocked, there would have to be a mechanical failure at the sear to allow the weapon to fire, unless it fell with the barrel down in which case the inertia of the firing pin ****might**** still cause an AD. How many AR15's have you heard of that AD'ed when dropped with their floating firing pins ? Those pins are far longer and heavier than the ones in pistols.


Just my 2 cents but in my personal experience a holstered weapon can still fire. In another thread I had a holster weapon AD on me by falling about a foot on to its hammer. I have no comment about who is in the right here just wanted to comment on the holstered weapons wont fire comment you made.

[derrabe]

This was a revolver with the hammer down on a live round ? I think most older pistols would have something similar happen if dropped with a round in the chamber and the hammer down, because there is nothing that blocks the firing pin or the hammer. If the hammer was cocked, there would have to be a mechanical failure at the sear to allow the weapon to fire, unless it fell with the barrel down in which case the inertia of the firing pin ****might**** still cause an AD. How many AR15's have you heard of that AD'ed when dropped with their floating firing pins ? Those pins are far longer and heavier than the ones in pistols.

This was actually a derringer 9mm pistol, and there is a post on this whole instance. I have no case with the manufacture because the pistol does have a safety on it but it was not engaged. I was uneducated and was thinking that it had to be cocked to fire so why would I need to engage the safety, which blocks the hammer about 1/4 of an inch from the pin. I was wrong in my assumption. It is now carried with the safety engaged. The only point of my post was that it was stated it is impossible for a holstered weapon to fire. Which I found out first had is wrong. The gun was in its holster and feel approximately a foot and half to the floor landing on its hammer and discharging. I know that is was a ND but it was still possible which is what was stated.

[DP425]

This was actually a derringer 9mm pistol, and there is a post on this whole instance. I have no case with the manufacture because the pistol does have a safety on it but it was not engaged. I was uneducated and was thinking that it had to be cocked to fire so why would I need to engage the safety, which blocks the hammer about 1/4 of an inch from the pin. I was wrong in my assumption. It is now carried with the safety engaged. The only point of my post was that it was stated it is impossible for a holstered weapon to fire...


Don't really mean to insult you here, and I hope you don't take it that way (especially since the first quote is kind of harsh) but I think this was in response to a couple things I said below:


None of it is really necessary safety wise if the firearms are in good, safe working order and the users are not retards...



...and unless you have a gun you shouldn't be using (unsafe), it isn't going to fire without the trigger being pulled. Of course be mindful of different gun's requirements for safe carry (example old colt SAA's, hammer down empty chamber).



If your firearm is safe, carried safely, in a hard side holster with retention, this isn't a legitimate worry....

I just wanted to be clear that in all of them I stressed the firearm will not fire if it is carried as it should be. But I also recognize the OP mentioned something along the lines of what you said:


Holstered weapons do not accidentally discharge.

However, even here he said accidental discharge; your experience wasn't accidental, it was negligent. Accidental is an incidence that was not the result of a lack of taking reasonable steps to ensure safety. Negligent is when the user does something they should or do know better than doing; almost all unintended discharges are a ND; AD's are rather rare as it is generally an equipment or mechanical failure. But, you took responsibility... and that is the important thing. Shows you learn something from the mistake and it's highly unlikely to happen again. Very respectable. Too many people try to find something else to blame when it should rest squarely on their shoulders; that tells me they aren't learning from their error.