View Full Version : Safe rifle round for home defense
Daniels
08-05-2012, 07:12 PM
What would be a good rifle round to use as home defense. I'm thinking about a compact rifle / pistol for home defense but we have little ones in the house and neighbors right on top of us. What size round and what manufacturer ammo do you guys use in your home defense rifles?
Thanks
Tyler
08-05-2012, 07:23 PM
Hornady TAP 5.56 in both ARs
The General
08-05-2012, 07:55 PM
thee's no such thing as a "safe" rifle round.
If they can't penetrate walls, then they won't do well against aggressors.
If they can demolish aggressors, then they can rip through walls.
ILoveMyGlock
08-05-2012, 07:58 PM
Here you go man;
mAxkVMQHGpE
Daniels
08-05-2012, 08:06 PM
Here you go man;
mAxkVMQHGpE
That's awesome! Thanks for that video because I was thinking of a rifle or shotgun for the home and I'll be leaning toward the shotgun for sure now.
austin7118
08-05-2012, 08:43 PM
Sweet video... thanks.
I keep a 12ga with buckshot under the bed and a 1911 JHP in the safe in the closet.
No children to worry about so in an event, our plan is to stay in our room while she calls the police and stays on the phone. We hunker behind the mattress and point the 12ga at the door.
If they come through the door... :pump:
Daniels
08-05-2012, 08:52 PM
Any experience with the PDX1 rifle rounds or similar?
jebates
08-05-2012, 08:59 PM
a small rifle does not have enough power. A shotgun with rubber bullets would be better around kids and neighbors. Cheaperthandirt.com sells them.High power round can go through walls and wood.
durus5995
08-05-2012, 09:11 PM
a small rifle does not have enough power. A shotgun with rubber bullets would be better around kids and neighbors. Cheaperthandirt.com sells them.High power round can go through walls and wood.
Why would you use less lethal ammo on a threat trying to potentially kill you? Personally I have an AR loaded up with some 62 gr. TAP.
As stated before if it can not go through a wall it might not be enough to take down a bad guy. Try and find a happy balance and if you are worried about missing perhaps more training is needed.
jebates
08-05-2012, 09:55 PM
Why would you use less lethal ammo on a threat trying to potentially kill you? Personally I have an AR loaded up with some 62 gr. TAP.
As stated before if it can not go through a wall it might not be enough to take down a bad guy. Try and find a happy balance and if you are worried about missing perhaps more training is needed.
he was worried about his kids and neighbors. im just giving him an alternative. a rubber bullet at close range is very painfull and can make someone change there mind quick. i would be inclined to give a thief lead poisening.:enforcer:
durus5995
08-05-2012, 10:15 PM
he was worried about his kids and neighbors. im just giving him an alternative. a rubber bullet at close range is very painfull and can make someone change there mind quick. i would be inclined to give a thief lead poisening.:enforcer:
Did you even watch the above video? A .233 / 5.56 begins to fragment after a single board of drywall. Then consider their are 2 boards to each wall. Living in an apartment I try to put as many walls between myself and my neighbors. Using a rifle or shotgun is possible with the right planning even in an apartment.
Rubber bullets can penetrate and harm just as bad as a real bullet if used improperly. Plus if used improperly you could potentially open your self up to extra legal issues.
Do conceal carry or open carry? What is in your carry gun and why?
DP425
08-05-2012, 10:25 PM
Okay, check this out:
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/
Click on your different rounds, then go down to the box that contains the stats- click on gelatins.
Now, this is a representation of how the bullet will perform on soft tissue. One can make something of a assumption to the performance on a live target, and one can also make an assumption based on this of how it would perform on barrier, given they show gel penetration after passing through various barriers.
That being said, and one should take note, you can check it out for yourself, but I can tell you this much, the worst performing (least penetration after wallboard) was the Critical Duty 135gr 9mm at 13". The BEST performing .223 (meaning most penetration after wallboard) was the 55gr GMX Barrier at 15". Next best was the 62gr barrier at 12.75". Some are as low as 4".
No gel info for shotguns, but given the data, .223 would be a very good choice, and you can pick your rounds to either minimize wall pass-through effects or maximize lethality... or just pick something in between. But, as far as the research I've seen, 00 buck carries a LOT of energy through wallboard. Different performance for different uses, make your choice.
EDIT: if you are worried about your kids in the room next door, keep them on the opposite walls and run the 40gr TAP urban .223. When passing through two wall boards, it will be nearly harmless with distance between the wall and kids. Penetration through clothing on gel isn't optimal with 7" total penetration and 5 1/4" wound cavity... but a few chest shots on all but the biggest guys would still put them down.
rubber bullets are stupid
the key here is this to many dont think about it or think about many variables
and there are just that daniels and i have talked about this all ready...
about what your shooting and why... and how your shooting it..... and were your shooting it
maustin195
08-05-2012, 11:24 PM
Does anyone know if there is anywhere that similar tests were done with insulation in the walls. It would be interesting to see the difference if there was fiberglass or foam in the walls.
Does anyone know if there is anywhere that similar tests were done with insulation in the walls. It would be interesting to see the difference if there was fiberglass or foam in the walls.
yeap..... build it and shoot it its what i did
DP425
08-06-2012, 12:22 AM
Does anyone know if there is anywhere that similar tests were done with insulation in the walls. It would be interesting to see the difference if there was fiberglass or foam in the walls.
I highly doubt insulation is going to matter much; lets think this through... if you're concerned about the HP cavity of a projectile filling up, not much to worry about here, you're going through wallboard first. It's severely lacking in density, so it's effects on velocity loss and deformation/fragmentation are going to be very low.
But if you really want to know, follow RSF's advise and test it for yourself. Set up your wall and set one of these up on the other side:
http://www.thebullettesttube.com/
About as close as gel you are going to get without going through a TON lot of effort.
maustin195
08-06-2012, 11:06 AM
yeap..... build it and shoot it its what i did
Interested in sharing results?
stevenpd
09-22-2012, 05:02 PM
Hey I'm new to the site and am really enjoying all of the useful information!:spam:
JerichoOne
09-30-2012, 08:40 PM
Join our facebook page: Jericho Defense
I posted a ballistics truth document in there. I built a wall, shot it from everything from 22LR to 308 and we shot a cinder block with 9mm, .223 and 308. Everything went straight through it except the .223 round which went sideways when it caught on the insulation side.
If you want to know the truth...there are no absolutes. And anyone that tells you different, they are full of it. One of the best men I know had a family member shot in the temple at point blank range with a 44 mag and survived. The security guard in front of the Holocaust museum in Washington D.C. was shot in the chest with a 22LR and died. I can show you example after example of "THE" perfect self defense rounds to use failing to do their job and people killed with rounds people aren't afraid of here. Shot placement is first and foremost. James Brady got shot in the head with a .22LR and dropped like a stone. Key to that one was shot placement. Reagan didn't even know he was shot and it was just off of his heart. Penetration and hydrolic shock are very needed factors, but shot placement is above those.
Some things to remember...Cover should always be viewed as temporary cover. Almost everything in a house can be destroyed with enough rounds. A cinder block is not very strong against a bunch of 9mm shots. You can see the results in my pictures. Shot angles..."know what is in front of your target and what is behind it" and shot placement are more important than anything else. If you don't have correct shot angles, you end up with the same situation they had with the New York Police Department out in front of the Empire State building. Dead or hurt people who shouldn't be dead or hurt.
So you want the perfect round? Get one you can hit your target with and use shot angles to make sure your neighbors are safe while taking down the person trying to kill you.
shifty_85
10-01-2012, 12:48 AM
Both of my shotguns *870 with 8 slugs and my saiga 12 with 5 slugs* along with my 1911 with PDX1's at my bed side. no rifles are loaded but i i have alot of stripper clips loaded for my my Mosin nagant.
also a mag of .308 SP's are loaded but not in my AR-10.
Buffman
10-01-2012, 09:05 AM
If you're thinking limited penetration, then the .223 Hornady Tap in 40gr would definately be a choice. It fragments widly and only offers 5-6" of penetration in bare gel. Hit wall board first, then usually by the second wall board, there's only tiny holes in second board, and very little pass through. At least that usually happens most of the time. It will still rip right through thicker steel. May be ideal for missed shots, but that 5-6" of penetration in bare gel, might not get the job done..
be careful what you use, your "extra" lethal round can put you in jail for intent to kill, the bad guy may become the victim.
tote'ngranny
10-03-2012, 08:14 PM
be careful what you use, your "extra" lethal round can put you in jail for intent to kill, the bad guy may become the victim.
Define *extra lethal* please. How the heck am I to know how bad the guy is front of me to figure out how lethal my round should be .. and do that in a nano second ???? It's been documented time and again that handgun calibers suck !! Nah .. I am going to load with the best load to get the job done with having to use as few as possible to DROP that bad guy and deal with the courts later. Gotta win the battle first.
tote'ngranny
10-03-2012, 08:16 PM
be careful what you use, your "extra" lethal round can put you in jail for intent to kill, the bad guy may become the victim.
ps .. that IS my intent if that guy is coming at me.
Ricebrnr
10-03-2012, 09:59 PM
I know a Sherriff's SWAT Team that uses plain Jane 55gr FMJ in there M4s.
Discuss
I know a Sherriff's SWAT Team that uses plain Jane 55gr FMJ in there M4s.
Discuss
they need a lesson................
ChaneyD
10-03-2012, 10:04 PM
be careful what you use, your "extra" lethal round can put you in jail for intent to kill, the bad guy may become the victim.
And just where did you come up with that tidbit?
Fuel Fire Desire
10-03-2012, 10:10 PM
And just where did you come up with that tidbit?
Harold Fish
(hung in court for a SD shooting because he was using 10mm...."a round more powerful than what the police use")
He won in appeals, but not after getting his bank account drained by lawyers, spending time in prison, and essentially having his life ruined.
be careful what you use, your "extra" lethal round can put you in jail for intent to kill, the bad guy may become the victim.
Really? are you an atty? have you been to court on this have you testified ?
what is the difference do you also not understand that the same ammo can be called safer that deadlier?
tote'ngranny
10-03-2012, 10:20 PM
Harold Fish
(hung in court for a SD shooting because he was using 10mm...."a round more powerful than what the police use")
He won in appeals, but not after getting his bank account drained by lawyers, spending time in prison, and essentially having his life ruined.
Well at least he lived. His bank account wouldn't have been any use to him dead.
ChaneyD
10-04-2012, 07:07 AM
Harold Fish
(hung in court for a SD shooting because he was using 10mm...."a round more powerful than what the police use")
He won in appeals, but not after getting his bank account drained by lawyers, spending time in prison, and essentially having his life ruined.
And that was how long ago?
Buffman
10-04-2012, 03:06 PM
be careful what you use, your "extra" lethal round can put you in jail for intent to kill, the bad guy may become the victim.
LOL this sounds as bad as the guy on youtube who was spouting off about not using ammo unless it said "personal defense on it", or "law enforcement".
Words like "tactical" meant instant conviction in a court of law. He doesn't realize that his preferred Hydrashoks have that word "tactical" on the box
people have been convicted for using rounds other than FMJ, especially when they fired more than one shot, even though it was man slaughter, who wants to get convicted for that?
pkuptruck
10-05-2012, 07:58 AM
people have been convicted for using rounds other than FMJ, especially when they fired more than one shot, even though it was man slaughter, who wants to get convicted for that?
not recently.. by recently, I mean since the 1990's...
even mas ayob (sp) dispelled that myth a while ago.. ( and still does in his various musings in a number of gun rags..)
CAN it happen? Sure, anything CAN happen... but these days... not so much...
I would be more worried about alot of OTHER things besides the brand, name or source of my ammo...
ChaneyD
10-05-2012, 08:29 AM
people have been convicted for using rounds other than FMJ, especially when they fired more than one shot, even though it was man slaughter, who wants to get convicted for that?
Cite please.
tote'ngranny
10-05-2012, 11:36 AM
people have been convicted for using rounds other than FMJ, especially when they fired more than one shot, even though it was man slaughter, who wants to get convicted for that?
First, you have to SURVIVE the battle. A neighbor of mine shot a home invader with his 40 cal twice (yes HP) and he was NOT convicted .. not even charged with anything. That was about six years ago.
I don't know who is feeding you this BS .. but they certainly don't have your best interests in mind. You don't want to be caught out gunned by the BG.
zigziggityzoo
10-09-2012, 03:39 PM
they need a lesson................
Last I checked the US Army uses the same in many use cases (Yes, they also use others). The M193 round I believe.
mini4m3
10-11-2012, 11:14 AM
Last I checked the US Army uses the same in many use cases (Yes, they also use others). The M193 round I believe.
Army uses M193 for what?
HoldHard
10-11-2012, 11:59 AM
But if you really want to know, follow RSF's advise and test it for yourself. Set up your wall and set one of these up on the other side:
About as close as gel you are going to get without going through a TON lot of effort.
If you would rather read up on what someone else has already done versus "going through a TON of effort", check out the website The Box O' Truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/). There are numerous tests of a wide variety of ammunition and what gets shot, including insulated walls (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12.htm) (<-- click).
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/index.jpg
The actual "box" used for the initial testing.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/1-1.jpg
ChaneyD
10-11-2012, 05:55 PM
Army uses M193 for what?
What do you think? To kill with.
Revdrshad
10-13-2012, 04:17 AM
The American Military has the Geneva Convention telling them what ammo to use...
Also, a low budget, labor Union Contracts, approved suppliers, etc...
Civilians don't neccesarily have that type of "Red Tape" for decisions on their ammo...
Johnny Reb
10-13-2012, 08:04 AM
.22 mag hollow point from a rifle.
Johnny Reb
10-13-2012, 08:09 AM
Harold Fish
(hung in court for a SD shooting because he was using 10mm...."a round more powerful than what the police use")
He won in appeals, but not after getting his bank account drained by lawyers, spending time in prison, and essentially having his life ruined.
The main thing that hung Harold Fish was he "talked" to the police after he shot the guy. The Prosecutor nailed him on his statements made to the Police W/O A LAWYER! They got him to say things he would have never said with a good lawyer present. That is the poster case for never speaking to the police after a SD shooting W/O a lawyer. The 10mm thing was overhyped as the reason for nailing him. But it was his statements that swayed the jury. And he paid dearly.
ChaneyD
10-13-2012, 08:43 AM
The American Military has the Geneva Convention telling them what ammo to use...
Also, a low budget, labor Union Contracts, approved suppliers, etc...
Civilians don't neccesarily have that type of "Red Tape" for decisions on their ammo...
Nope! That would be the Hague Convention. Geneva convention concerns POW's.
TangoDown3727
10-13-2012, 09:58 AM
Define *extra lethal* please. How the heck am I to know how bad the guy is front of me to figure out how lethal my round should be .. and do that in a nano second ???? It's been documented time and again that handgun calibers suck !! Nah .. I am going to load with the best load to get the job done with having to use as few as possible to DROP that bad guy and deal with the courts later. Gotta win the battle first.
:yeahthat: A bad guy is a bad guy. There are no 'levels' to that. The objective is to WIN at all costs! Your 'prize' for winning is keeping your life and the lives of your loved ones. The threat must be stopped and if that means they die in the process, then so be it. Important thing is that you and your loved ones live!
:yeahthat: A bad guy is a bad guy. There are no 'levels' to that. The objective is to WIN at all costs! Your 'prize' for winning is keeping your life and the lives of your loved ones. The threat must be stopped and if that means they die in the process, then so be it. Important thing is that you and your loved ones live!
Amen!!
Revdrshad
10-17-2012, 06:46 PM
Nope! That would be the Hague Convention. Geneva convention concerns POW's.
I stand corrected, Thank you, Sir.
Been pretty tired lately...
Roundballer
02-18-2013, 11:20 PM
12gauge 00buck. only way to go
17 posts in 17 minutes, just joined today, each post 1~6 words long. A real contributor here!
First post was, of course, a "for sale ad", but that was 2 hrs earlier.
emkrysiak
02-21-2013, 04:27 PM
this thread has been informative for this new gun owner! I want to get a shotgun for the home as well.
Roundballer
02-21-2013, 04:52 PM
this thread has been informative for this new gun owner! I want to get a shotgun for the home as well.
More spillage from the "Market place"......
cableman22b
03-05-2013, 06:11 PM
Test your rounds into layers of drywall.
RougeLeader
03-05-2013, 06:40 PM
More spillage from the "Market place"......
And yet, another one above this post. They hit 11 and posted their first item for sale.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.